here we go again

[tristesse]

I am really getting tired of the crap, and I am really getting tired of trying to make a peaceful life for myself and gs when BPDd does not try.

Yesterday I went to visit MIL, DH was at work and DD was home because her son was coming home from weekend visit to his dad, while I was gone DD called 4 times, each time to complain about something. The last call was to yell about her brothers dog, she said the dog attacked her son, and she wanted the dog gone. Since I wasn't there and did not see what happened I told her I would address this issue upon my return home, no more was said at that time.

Once I got home I noticed the dog(s) roaming freely about the house and gs was perfectly fine, no scratch , scrape or bite mark etc. So I said absolutely nothing about the incident.

DD wanted me to take her to the store so I did, upon arriving at the store, she starts badgering about the dog and insisting that the dog go. I asked her to please not create a scene and we would discuss it at home. DD was not going to be put off, she was gearing up for a fight, and raising her voice.

I told her that I was not going to do this in public and turned and walked from the store, she of course followed at my heels yapping the entire way to the car and all the way home.

Once we got home, she started her rant in earnest, where it comes out that gs had actually pinched the dog, the dog yelped and reacted by nipping at him. No actual bite, not even a red mark on the skin. I am not condoning the action of the dog, but gs is 5 years old and that is old enough to know better than to hurt the dog, and he has been told repeatedly. I am sorry, but when you hurt an animal they react on instinct

It boils down to this, I am not going to get rid of my dog and I am not asking my son to get rid of his, these are animals that have become a member of the family, they are a commitment that we signed on for, and they depend on us. It is not fair to the dogs to rehome them because the gs is not disciplined, and there is no punishment to him for being mean. The dogs stay, end of story.

DD is raging by this point, she wants what she wants, and she wants the dogs gone, she ordered me to get rid of them, and actually threatened to physically harm them. Now ... .I don't how anybody else feels, but she is going too far in my eyes. She is crossing lines and boundaries, and I told her so. to which she told me where I could shove my boundaries.

I am so miserable living with this girl, she makes demands on everybody, mainly me, and refuses to do anything. She pays no rent because she has no job, and sits in my house all day long, making messes that she won't clean, she waits for me to come home so I can prepare dinner, and then I do the dishes  too. ( I work 60 plus hours a week and I am not in my 20's anymore )I do have my son and his gf  living there as well, but they at least clean up after themselves, and the gf will cook and she will do dishes etc. dd expects everybody to take care of her and her son and she feels like it's owed to her.

On top of that gs is becoming violent when she rages, while she was hollering yesterday, he was punching me, he punched me square in the nose at one point, and dd encourages him to act out like that, and tells him how much we all hate him. This breaks my heart, not because of what she says, but because of the damage she is doing to this child. She has him very confused and he has no idea about acceptable behavior.

So, what do I do? If I evict dd, what happens to the gs? Not sure I can live with that guilt, but really not sure I can live with dd. I need help, I need advice, and I need peace in my life.

   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

tristesse

how sorry I was to read your post... .my heart hurts for you today. You do not deserve that kind of treatment. It seems that it would be better if they were not living in your home that is clear. Can you find services for her and support? Is there a way to get welfare or something so she can get into low income housing? There must be a way to start the ball rolling and she needs to be the one that is looking for solutions to her problems. She is acting terribly and I think some boundaries should be put in place in the meantime. She should have chores to do around the house everyday. Can she cook? These are things she could be doing and I think it would help her self esteem.

I am sorry you are going through this. I do think there is a way to proceed. I know it is hard when you are afraid of poking the bear but do not fall into the trap of being fearful of her raging. hang in there. I am thinking of you today

[Elbry]

tristesse my   goes out to you.  It sounds like you have so much on your plate.  I have an older daughter I haven't really talked about here but I wonder if she has BPD too.  Setting boundaries with an older child when grandchildren are involved is SO hard to do.  I understand your fears about your grandson.  I won't go into my whole story here, but I had to make some very tough decisions about my daughter and grandchildren and now I am raising my 4 yr-old grandson, my sister has my 2-yr old grandson and my daughter is about to deliver a granddaughter.  She is 21.  You have to do what is best for the innocent one- your grandson, and for you, and then for your DD.  I had to do what was best for my grandsons, and my daughter hated me for a little while, but we are ok now. 

Kicking your DD out of the house might seem to be an easy solution for some people, but I understand what that would mean for your grandson and how difficult that would be for you.  On the other hand, you can't allow her to abuse and control you.  I like what jellibeans said about welfare and low-income housing.  Or would that make her too angry and cut you off from your grandson?  Also, housing can take a long time.  What if you set clear boundaries, and put the ball in her court?  Then it is HER decision.  IF you want to stay here, THIS is what you have to do.  That sort of thing. 

[tristesse]

Jellibeans and Elbry,

she does not qualify for govt. assistance in this state because she receives $389.00 a month in child support, and I am an apartment manager in section 42 complex with previous section 8 management history. There is a lengthy wait for income based housing in this area, well over a year.

This is a very good suggestion and I appreciate it, because I have thought of it myself, I just wish it were that easy.

I do worry about making her homeless, I worry about what will happen to her, will she become desperate enough to attempt suicide again, and if she was that desperate, would she succeed this time, and then how would I live with myself. Also what would become of gs? Where would she live with him, would she just live on the street or take him to a shelter for 30 days, and if so, what happens after her 30 days are up, would she be desperate enough to go home with just anybody exposing my gs to heavens knows what. Would they be safe and would they be able to eat etc.

I am sorry to be such a complaining whiner today, but seriously, does it ever end?

[jellibeans]

start today to make a plan going forward... .if it takes a year then it takes a year... .in the meantime you can help your dd find work and become more independent... .start today... .stop worrying and thinking about the what ifs... .don't let fear paralyze you.

[lever.]

Hello tristesse.

I had hoped you had had a bit of a breakthrough last time you posted. You had done so much work on listening with empathy and validating and your son and DIL were being so accommodating.

If it wasn't for your grandson I would be laying down some very firm rules about what is expected if your daughter wants to remain under your roof.

I know she is unwell but there is a limit to what you can tolerate.

However it is so difficult when GC are involved. It is concerning to hear how your DD's emotional outbursts are affecting her son.

I agree with  jellibeans about starting to make a plan for her to live independently  even if it takes a while to accomplish.

What do you think would happen to GS if he and his Mom lived alone?

Do you think she would cope or might GS finish up with you anyway?

[HealingSpirit]

Oh tristesse,

Geez!  You never seem to get a break, do you?  I don't know what the answers are, or what resources you have in your state.  But, there must be SOMETHING.

I feel for your struggle!  It seems whatever you do, you lose.  If you kick your DD out, then you worry about GS and feel guilty.  If you let them stay so you know GS has some safety, then DD walks all over you and abuses you.  Even if you find somewhere else for DD to live, you may be giving up your r/s with your GS.   I don't know what I'd do.  It's such a tough call.

What is your gut instinct telling you?  Turn off your head, ignore your worries (you can resume them later), and just listen to that quiet, intuitive place in your gut that KNOWS.  Maybe there is a solution you haven't been willing to see because you've been too scared or distracted to look at it.

My own gut instinct about this tells me that the solution can be found when you do what is best for EVERYONE concerned.  That includes YOU and YOUR need for peace.  Tristesse, you are part of this equation too.  Setting limits is the high road, even though your DD will surely butt right up against the limits you set. 

Do you have a NAMI branch near you?  Maybe they could point you to some resources to get disability aid for your DD since she obviously can't hold down a job.  I've heard it takes a long time, and you have to paint a very bleak so the sooner you get started, the better.  And painting a bleak picture of your DD's illness doesn't sound like it would be that challenging, based on what you've described here.

Let us know how it goes... .

 

[peace in steel town]

You realize, of course, that dd acts this way because she knows you wont kick her out, and she has no place to go. Why would she behave if she knows there are no consequences to her actions? She is running the house, pushing everyone else around, getting away with murder, and worst of all, modelling bad behavior for gs. She is a lousy guest and a lousy parent. The solution seems easy, living with yourself after is not.

[pessim-optimist]

I am so sorry tristesse,  

I remember when my SD was raging at us, her 3yo daughter at the time started copying her behaviors the very next day. It was very sad, and we had to deal with gd's tantrums on top of her mom's & with her mom again fighting with us about correcting her daughter. No fun.

I am sorry you have stress in your home again... .this latest crisis will blow over, however this situation is complicated, and a long-term solution is needed. I think that as long as you are more invested in keeping your dd in your home than she is, you will be held hostage and your attempts at setting boundaries will be to little avail... .

I know, there is a lot at stake, and having gs in the mix makes it harder.

A reality check (things you know, yet may want to hear from another person):

It is your dd's responsibility to keep her son safe by making sure he doesn't mistreat the dogs.

It is your right to set boundaries regarding your gs's misbehavior towards you.

It is your right to run your house any way you see fit.

You are in a difficult situation... .Something has to change.

Right now, there is a lot of chaos, lots of stress and few boundaries. It is not easy to take the control over your life and home back - it is best done in carefully prepared steps.

Have you had a chance to read the workshop on Boundaries, yet? Are you confident in understanding how the process of setting and upholding boundaries works? If you have questions, we are here to help you think this through.  

[lever.]

SET?

We really want to support you and have you living with us whilst things are difficult.

We understand that it is hard to cope with so much going on and so many people around.

HOWEVER this is OUR home with our pets and our rules and if you aren't happy with it we are willing to help you find somewhere else to live.

[tristesse]

Pessim-optimist I have read the segment on setting boundaries, but I am a miserable failure when it comes to actually doing so,  am afraid of the mis-step that will cause the rage. I have tried a few times and I am certainly not doing something right, so perhaps a  little help is in order. I just feel rather helpless and hopeless right now.

Healing Spirit I recently discovered the local NAMI organization, they meet once a month right here in this  town, I have not gone yet because the next metting isn't for a few weeks yet, but I intend to go and check it all out. My nBPDd who is a nursing student actually brought me the information.

Peace in a steel town, I know you are right, and I know I put the brakes on where dd is concerned, but knowing and doing are far different, and my strength and courage are waning at the moment.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lever.]

Hello again tristesse.

When I was experiencing a similar problem someone sent me the following link

US: Ragephobia - the fear of being raged upon

I found it very helpful because I had become traumatized and fearful of my DDs rages.

I aso practice mindfulness meditation and do a particular meditation called the mountain meditation where I visualise myself as a stable mountain that is unaffected by the changing weather and seasons ( you can read it on a site called Hamilton mindfulness under meditation scripts.)

This has helped me just set the boundary and be less affected by my DDs response.

I still find boundary setting a challenge -particularly when I know it will have implications for my relationship with my grandchildren, so I sympathise with the difficult situation you are in.

[tristesse]

Hi Lever,

I have never tried meditation, but I'm open to just about anything right now. I am wanting to work on myself anyway, so meditation is probably a very good place to start, that and I think I am going to start doing yoga  , this  should help me both mentally and physically. I am also going to read the link you sent. 

I hate this illness so much, Sunday she was a raging lunatic and Monday she acted as if everything in life was just perfect, I am not recovering the trauma so quickly and she acts as if she doesn't understand how I or anybody else can be upset or angry with her. Who knows what person will be waiting for me when I get home today, The bully or the teddy bear.

At any rate, I appreciate all of the helpful advice. something has to give eventually.

[pessim-optimist]

dear tristesse, 

I know how you feel... .(btw lever's link on ragephobia is a good one)

I am afraid of the mis-step that will cause the rage. I have tried a few times and I am certainly not doing something right, so perhaps a  little help is in order.

Do you remember the crying and tantrums of your toddlers, when you told them no, or let a consequence do the talking? Boundary setting (and upholding) is very taxing in the beginning (mentally, and emotionally), and it may feel like you have stirred up a hornet's nest. That is nothing out of the ordinary. - Is the very unpleasant reaction what makes you think you are doing something wrong? Or is it something else?

Would you like to describe some of your failed attempts? Maybe we can figure it our collectively... .

[tristesse]

Pessim-optimist I would love to give you an example of my boundary setting attempts.

dd will be shouting vulgar obscene things at me, I will have said something like, " please don't speak to me like it, I don't talk to you that way, and I don't like it when you talk to me like that, if you continue to use that language I am not going to talk to you."

Walking away from her is one of her biggest issues, she can not handle it when I leave the situation. I have had more than opportunity to do just that, but she will still continue the bad language and name calling etc.

I have also tried SET:     I understand that you are upset right now,

                                    If I felt like I was being treated unfairly I would be upset too.

                                    We all have to make sacrifices right now as there are so many people living in this house.

something on those lines.  but nothing seems to be getting through, and I don't know why.

so where am I going wrong?

[jellibeans]

My dd does this too at times... .following me from room to room... .raging etc... .I have had to get in the car and leave me home just to stop her from raging at me. I find if I just stop interacting... .stop the circular argument then she gets tired and goes away but it is hard because the whole time she is provoking and saying some terrible things. Have you tried telling her that she will lose a priviledge of some kind if she doesn't stop?

[chooselove]

As sad as it is to accept that your gs will be damaged, I would still evict your dd because he is being damaged where he is at and so are you and the rest of your household.  After years of rages, physical abuse, cleaning up messes, financially supporting and pleading, praying and setting boundaries that were not respected,  we finally were able to get our dd to move out.   Yes, I have guilt but our home has restored to a peaceful harmonious place and the guilt I have mainly comes from realizing how happy we are with her not living here.   She is better off, too, because she now lives with people who will not tolerate her drama and she is actually behaving better and has gone back to work.  If your dd lived elsewhere is there not a good possibility that your gs will do better because she won't use him to beat up on you during her rages?  It's true you and he won't have a relationship... .but can you honestly say you have one with him now?  At some point I think some of us realize that we have to save the ones we can and that's us and the rest of the household who do not deserve to have to live in constant turmoil and fear while walking on eggshells.  I hope you will consider this.  Having three happy people and two unhappy people is better than having five unhappy people.  I really do think the BPD's stand a better chance not living with the subjects of their hate and projection.  You can still help from afar if you feel compelled to... .think of what the mistrust, fear and upset are worth to you and pay it toward her new living arrangement if you must.   Having suffered through similar circumstances for more years than I care to remember, I would go back and evict a whole lot sooner if I had the choice... .just so glad that we are now liberated.  We do think of our dd often and hope the best for her and deeply miss what could have been and wish with all our hearts that things were different.  But... .we are happy and healthy again in our homes and that is priceless.   

[tristesse]

Jellibeans, there are not many privilages that can be taken from a 30 year old, but I do try. I have also gotten in the car and left and have had to turn off the cell phone while away to keep her from rapid fire texting and calling. She does not calm down very quickly and usually wants go back into it once I return to the house.

Chooselove, I do appreciate your advice, but can say with all honesty that my gs and I do have a great relationship when his mother is not raging. He is a sweet little boy, but reacts in fear to what his mother is doing. That is very sad to me.

DD has lived away from me before, actually on 3 different occasions, she just finds a new target for her rage, and ruins every relationship she is in, the last one ended with her being physically beaten by her bf and my gs was there to witness the entire act.  My heart will not let me send out to the streets with this little boy or into a strangers home where goodness knows what can happen to her or him. She is in DBT right now and has been a few times already, but way too soon to see results.  I get very frustrated and very fed up, but what I really want to know is, how to successfully live with her.

[HealingSpirit]

Dear Tristesse,

I get very frustrated and very fed up, but what I really want to know is, how to successfully live with her.

Me too!   I'd love to know how to successfully live with my BPDD.  It seems she and I have different definitions of "success."  To me, it means to live happily, and harmoniously together, mutually supporting each other.  To DD, success seems to mean "YOU give me whatever I ask for and I shouldn't have to do anything YOU ask.  And if YOU don't do what I ask or give me what I want, then YOU are not being a supportive parent."   

[lever.]

Tristesse-you aren''t doing anything wrong, sometimes we don't get the response we hope for and we can only persevere.

If it was just her I would say set the limit and make her leave but having your young gs massively complicates the situation.

My daughter is currently staying with her 3 young children.

If she started to be abusive to me I would not like to make her leave because I know they would be massively upset.

However the arrangement for your DD seems to be long term.

If she can't co-operate with the rest of the family it can't go on.

How would she react if you said that she is clearly unhappy living with you and you will help and support her in finding somewhere else to live.

It would obviously take a lot of organising but you might be able to see light at the end of the tunnel  

[tristesse]

Lever. I have tried offering assistance in finding her a place of her own and becoming somewhat independent, truth is, she is terrified to be alone. She's terrified of the dark, and just panics at the thought of trying to live on her own. I have suggested that perhaps she make this a goal and work with her t on this... She says ok, but I'm sure she really means it. As always, I will come here to vent and complain and listen and learn, but then I will return to life and keep on trying to make it work.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

dd will be shouting vulgar obscene things at me, I will have said something like, " please don't speak to me like it, I don't talk to you that way, and I don't like it when you talk to me like that, if you continue to use that language I am not going to talk to you."

Walking away from her is one of her biggest issues, she can not handle it when I leave the situation. I have had more than opportunity to do just that, but she will still continue the bad language and name calling etc.

I have also tried SET:     I understand that you are upset right now,

                                    If I felt like I was being treated unfairly I would be upset too.

                                    We all have to make sacrifices right now as there are so many people living in this house.

something on those lines.  but nothing seems to be getting through, and I don't know why.

so where am I going wrong?

Actually, in all of these examples, you are doing a very good job! Only - like jellibeans said, you might need to remove yourself completely from the situation if she is following you around.

It takes a while before the new boundary sinks in and before they realize that we mean it. The behavior actually gets much worse in the meantime, before it stops (that part is called "extinction burst").

And for us to be able to really establish the new boundary, we need to follow through EVERY SINGLE TIME. If we only do it sometimes, and sometimes give in, we are giving what's called "intermittent reinforcement" and that makes the situation worse in the long run:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.msg844074#msg844074

Intermittent reinforcement: slot machines use this. They pay out on irregular schedules. You never know when you will win, but you know that if you keep pulling the handle that sooner or later a pay out will occur. It may happen on the third pull or the twentieth pull, but you will win if you keep trying. The fact that you KNOW that you will eventually win, keeps you hooked into trying.

What does this mean? If you tell them you won't answer the phone while at work, and they call you 20 times, and you answer on the 21st ring, you have just inadvertently given them intermittent reinforcement. Now they know that if they can bug you enough, that you will always eventually respond. This actually escalates the behavior you are trying to stop. They believe they can win if they just keep pulling the lever, even if they go broke trying, they will keep at it. Consistency in not responding is the only way to eliminate the undesired behavior... .

Now that she knows you will not accept her verbal abuse, you can develop shorter phrases to accompany your exit, like: "we can talk later when you feel better." The point is to leave as soon as the abuse starts, because our actions speak much louder than words.

Me too!   I'd love to know how to successfully live with my BPDD.  It seems she and I have different definitions of "success."  To me, it means to live happily, and harmoniously together, mutually supporting each other.  To DD, success seems to mean "YOU give me whatever I ask for and I shouldn't have to do anything YOU ask.  And if YOU don't do what I ask or give me what I want, then YOU are not being a supportive parent."

I hear you!

Well, HS, I think that you will not be able to reach your version of "success" as long as your dd suffers from BPD. No guarantees, but you might be able to reach a modified level of success, where you give what you are willing to give in terms of support and don't have major tantrums on your hands... .How does that sound?

[chooselove]

tristesse, thanks for your reply to me.  I understand and am ever so grateful that my dd does not have any children as it would tear me to more pieces than I can count.  I wish I could offer more help than my suggestion of separation.  In all these years of living with my dd, trying various things, it has only gotten worse, and separation was the saving grace that gave us our peace.  But to our dd's credit this time she is living with good people and working. One day in the future your gs may thank you for not abandoning him.  That day will make all this worth it, is my thought.

[tristesse]

chooselove, I too wish it weren't so difficult, and I have experienced those brief times where we had peace, when she lived elsewhere, I long for that peace again. I feel ridiculously guilty for not liking my own daughter, although I love her more than I could say, and I feel guilt for wanting her to live outside my home just so I can have peace. My gs doesn't stand a chance a life in life if his mother doesn't get well, and my breaks knowing that I can do nothing about it except try to give him some calm normalcy.

I dream of the day that I have a somewhat normal healthy happy relationship with BPDd, but then reality creeps back in and I realize that it is just a dream.

ho-hum.

[HealingSpirit]

Dear Tristesse,

It seems like you're feeling a bit more able to cope today.  I'm so glad.  Living with BPD is such a roller coaster!

I dream of the day that I have a somewhat normal healthy happy relationship with BPDd, but then reality creeps back in and I realize that it is just a dream.

ho-hum.

I couldn't have said it better myself!  It's the kind of dream that makes you want to stay asleep and keep dreaming.   

Pessim-optimist,

Thank you for sharing that link about "Extinction burst."  I have experienced this whenever I've set a new boundary with anyone, and I've observed it in others, but I never knew there was a name for it.     I remember from my college psych class that "intermittent positive reinforcement" is THE MOST POWERFUL type of reinforcement there is in classical conditioning.  That's why gambling can be so addicting.

Well, HS, I think that you will not be able to reach your version of "success" as long as your dd suffers from BPD. No guarantees, but you might be able to reach a modified level of success, where you give what you are willing to give in terms of support and don't have major tantrums on your hands... .How does that sound?

I'm sure you're right.  My definition is not realistic with BPD in the picture because my idea is dependent on the other person giving equally.  No chance for that with BPD!  -sigh-

 

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you for sharing that link about "Extinction burst." 

Glad it helped!