BPD and their distinctive features

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi ! I know this is not the most important subject in here, but I' m very curious.

I wonder if your exBPD have "weird" or even scary facial features ?

I finally got rid of my exBPD (YAY!). He was totally obsessive and now I'm very picky to chose my next relationship. I' m trying to find a healthy partner now. I though about my ex and I realized his facial features was not normal, I should have seen he has a dysfunctional personality. I have to say I never though he was attractive, I always saw something was not normal. Just by his face ! Now I really wonder why I went into a relationship with this man. I don't know, something in his eyes is really scary.

Am I the only one ?

[LovexLife]

Hi ! I know this is not the most important subject in here, but I' m very curious.

I wonder if your exBPD have "weird" or even scary facial features ?

I finally got rid of my exBPD (YAY!). He was totally obsessive and now I'm very picky to chose my next relationship. I' m trying to find a healthy partner now. I though about my ex and I realized his facial features was not normal, I should have seen he has a dysfunctional personality. I have to say I never though he was attractive, I always saw something was not normal. Just by his face ! Now I really wonder why I went into a relationship with this man. I don't know, something in his eyes is really scary.

Am I the only one ?

[enlighten me]

No your not alone. Theres plenty of comments here about their eyes.

Its a tough one though. I know certain medical professionals say they can spot a BPD as soon as they walk into a room. Would be a nice talent to have. I suppose the problem with most of us on here is that we are too trusting. The old adage of you cant judge a book by its cover is both true and false in BPD. At first glance we saw a wonderful person who turned out to be a nightmare. If we had looked deeper though we may have seen the warning signs.

[freedom33]

I agree with enlingthen me. There is something about their eyes. Her eyes were electric. If she was happy they would radiate such uplifting energy. But as time passed they were more and more intensely filled with anger and angst at times. Very strong and intense stare. Scary and hard to look at at times.

Enlighten me - I agree with you on trust. I just never imagined that people like this existed. But now after what I have been through I am like a BPD radar. There is that intensity, drama and masquerade that comes with them that I can't forget.

[OutOfEgypt]

My boss told me, after our divorce, that he was glad that he could finally tell me that he and some of the other guys candidly called her "crazy eyes".  They knew about many of the awful things I endured, and they said that in one of the family photos you could clearly see that something is "off" in her eyes.  This is probably also why many children (friends of my children when my children were younger) were terrified of her and always did what she said.

[hurting300]

Ok now I'm freaking out. My friends whom are mostly police officers told me their was something about i need to be concerned about. They said he's eyes look like she's insane.

[freedom33]

Ok now I'm freaking out. My friends whom are mostly police officers told me their was something about i need to be concerned about. They said he's eyes look like she's insane.

Yup... .And guess why?

[hurting300]

Oh they told me time and time again, hey man something is up with her you need to be careful. They were right.

[LovexLife]

Ok now I'm freaking out. My friends whom are mostly police officers told me their was something about i need to be concerned about. They said he's eyes look like she's insane.

Don' t freak out ! It' s a good thing to know. Enlighten Me is right, this is a warning sign and we have to pay attention to thoses things too, for our next relationships.

Thank you for your answers ! The more I think about my exBPD, the more I think about his stare. It' s a strong word, but there were something evil in his eyes.

[LettingGo14]

I know we take comfort in shared experiences here.  However, it's very difficult to assign a "look" and diagnose anything.  

We suffer after our relationships, and we want to heal.   But, the pathway to healing lies within us.   We can release ourselves from the pain with self-inquiry.

Paying attention to   (red flags) is important; however, diagnoses based on facial features is a slippery slope.

Just my 2 cents.

[OutOfEgypt]

Yup.  I don't think you can assume someone is crazy by a "look in the eye."  However, looking back I can see how the look in her eye definitely goes along with her behavior.  As far as red flags go, I think listening to our gut impression of someone and taking note of behavior goes much further than how we think they look.

[Mr Hollande]

If the eyes are the mirror of the soul then it's not unreasonable to suggest that the diseased soul of a BPD shines through the eyes.

[OutOfEgypt]

Right, but that's a bit subjective is all, don't you think?  Maybe they just have gas

[elessar]

I know we take comfort in shared experiences here.  However, it's very difficult to assign a "look" and diagnose anything.  

Paying attention to   (red flags) is important; however, diagnoses based on facial features is a slippery slope.

I wanted to add my support to this. BPD is a psychological disorder. Reasons vary from genetics to epigenetics (my hypothesis) to life experiences. It is a most likely a mixture of all. There are certain criteria that one must meet to be diagnosed. One of the most frustrating things I dealt with was when I told friends my ex might have BPD, and they laughed at me saying I am making things up from googling.

We must be careful to only focus on issues that deal with the BPD criteria, lest we lose our own credibility. There was an earlier thread about BPD not getting mainstream attention. One person commented that it might lead to people diagnosing anyone they felt was weird to them.

So let us focus on the criteria of a BPD and their derivatives. For example, breaking boundaries isn't a criteria in the DSM, but it is a derivative of an unstable interpersonal relationship along with narcissism. Since ~50% BPDs are comorbid NPDs, we can include breaking personal boundaries as a BPD trait.

But focusing on personal anecdotes that we find strange is a dangerous slippery slope where people will stop believing us. After all, disordered or not, every person has their own personalities, traits, weirdness. And when there are so many people in the world, many borderlines - by a definition of probability - will share those traits.

This is not to invalidate the hurt we are feeling by our ex/current pwBPD. But just to maintain our own credibility when we are talking about mental illness of our pwBPD.

[hurting300]

No it's not subjective. Trained police officers deal with people like who we was with daily. I can see what they mean. When your not "all there" You have a look.

[freedom33]

I agree that eyes do give a feel for one's mental condition. They do reflect one's psychological state. In my girlfriend's eyes there would this pure intense energy combined with a hollow look. Also there was a feeling of agitation, of tension, mental angst. I am not reading into this. I noticed this before I realised the problems and what BPD was.

[freedom33]

Right, but that's a bit subjective is all, don't you think?  Maybe they just have gas

This is also true. She was complaining about her stomach problems (and other ailments) all the time. She probably had gas too! 

[Mr Hollande]

No it's not subjective. Trained police officers deal with people like who we was with daily. I can see what they mean. When your not "all there" You have a look.

To which I will stick my subjective neck out further by adding what a retired police officer once said to me. "When you've done enough years in the job and dealt with enough individuals you develop a sense for spotting a wrong'un quite easily".

Since gas has now been brought into the topic. My ex did suffer from that. To the extent of waking me up at night with her trumping. Not very feminine but I found it cute. It was certainly preferable to many of her other behaviours. 

[OutOfEgypt]

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I was actually trying to make a joke.

1) I'm not a retired police officer with years of dealing with people like that every day.  Are you?  

2) It would be difficult to objectively qualify WHY they have "the look".  It is more of a gut impression you get, a perception, which is fine.

3) Can you see in the eyes how one person has BPD and another is, for example, a paranoid schizophrenic?  I can't.

I have 15 years of experience dealing with my ex every day, and I have a much more finely tuned ability to recognize someone as "off" than I did back then.  I could not, however, explain this to someone who does not have the experience and have them get it in the way that I do.  It is a gut impression from experience more than it is a teachable, objective thing.

I also see that my ex has a hollow look inside, in the eyes.  That's not my imagination.  But it didn't have that meaning to me until I knew her.  I didn't see it without the experience, and I would not have been able to say, "Ah, she has BPD" until I already knew she was broken in these ways.

[hurting300]

I'm sorry. Seriously... today marks 5 months since I've seen my baby. And I guess I'm just upset. And yes I've been around people with that look. I use to brag about spotting bad people all day long. But love is blind.

[Mr Hollande]

I know you did and I replied with a funny anecdote. I'm not intending to provoke an argument.

1. I am not no. Had I been I may have saved myself from a lot of pain.

2. I am a believer in gut reactions. I know I have them but I am not very good at adhering to them.

We've talked about the crazy stare and how frightening it is here and in other recent threads. One thing which I am still undecided whether it's scary or sad was the hollow eyes I saw on my BPD ex after the episode we had during her last visit. It was the only time I saw her like that. She'd had an absolutely horrible raging episode with me, the worst one ever, and afterwards it was like she'd burned out. Her eyes were just hollow. Not angry, intense or hateful, just empty. I am still baffled by it. Where her mind was in that moment I do not know. Scary, sad or both I cannot decide.

[OutOfEgypt]

freedom:  haha.  mine always had stomach problems, too... .or something... .was nervous, didn't feel good, was tired, etc.

hurting:  It's hard.  I know.  I'm sorry because I know it hurts!  I was able to spot a few crazies, myself.  I escaped dating a few.  That was fun .  In a strange twist, my ex has this ability when it comes to sexual predators (since she was sexually molested as a child).  Since we share children, I always ask her what she thinks of someone when it comes to where our daughters spend time.  She has a built-in "perv-detector", even though, ironically, she is something of a perv, herself (though not a child molestor!)

[OutOfEgypt]

Mr. H, I think we're saying the same thing

[Mr Hollande]

Yes. 

[toomanytears]

Yes my stbx had very scary eyes particularly when he became angry. The pupils would widen and they became darker and darker like two small hard black pebbles. I put it down to his almost constant state of fight or flight - his eyes reflected how he felt - always alert to some personal slight or hazard... .always afraid, always angry... .

[hurting300]

This is very interesting guys, my ex had the stare. And she had stomach problems. And headaches seem to be a thing with BPD or other cluster b people.

[Loveofhislife]

Just to add my two cents which have nothing to do with gastric disturbance--I have worked with the most severely mentally ill people (residing in state hospitals) and the most extreme cases of Alzheimer's related dementia, and I have NEVER seen the kind of blank, wild stare that I saw in exbfBPD. And yes, I worked with law enforcement, and we weren't allowed to profile based on eyes. There is something to this. However, my T told me today that the most reliable pwpd radar is anyone who starts telling you how mesmerized they are with you as soon as you meet. RUN!

[enlighten me]

Can I just ask with the dilated/ wide pupils was it only when they where raging?

Also people have mentioned in another post about their SO not remembering what they had said when raging. If anyone could remember if the wide eyes and memory blanks where at the same time it would be greatly appreciated.

[LovexLife]

Enlighten me : my ex always had this stare, not matter how he felt. In fact, I first saw it through photographs where he was supposed to be happy. Everyone around him just smile, but he had this evil stare. It is very scary.

Thank you everyone, your answers help a lot ! I didn't create this post to say you can diagnose a BPD just by his stare, I just wanted to know if another person noticed it too. It is very interesting to know I was not the only one

[enlighten me]

My ex recently posted some selfies on FB. The first thing I noticed was how angry her eyes looked. I showed a couple of my friends them and one said without prompting "don't her eyes make her look empty". The other guy who had a BPDexw said "wow angry eyes"

Everyone who replied gave her the wow beautiful reaction though.

[Lolster]

Yup, crazy stare whenever he was focused directly on me.  It was the same stare regardless of whether we were just chatting or having sex.  Very intense and odd, almost alien like.

[iluminati]

One thing I would say is distinctive is the borderline smile.  It's a particular type of fake smile.  It's a smile of pretending to be happy with a smile (which many people, most of them not people with borderline personality disorder, do from time to time) combined with a look of absolute fear and terror.  Like imagine how your eyes would look if you saw someone being beat to beat in front of you.  What amazes me is that they can walk around and do anything with that look of terror.  It's incredible to watch, once you're detached from it.

[freedom33]

One thing I would say is distinctive is the borderline smile.  It's a particular type of fake smile.  It's a smile of pretending to be happy with a smile (which many people, most of them not people with borderline personality disorder, do from time to time) combined with a look of absolute fear and terror.  Like imagine how your eyes would look if you saw someone being beat to beat in front of you.  What amazes me is that they can walk around and do anything with that look of terror.  It's incredible to watch, once you're detached from it.

Wow. Yes! You are right. There is a dramatic horror that comes with that smile. This is the first thing I noticed about her when I first noticed her. It was like she was wearing a drama mask. Creepy... .Something wasn't right there but I was curious. Curiosity ate the cat.

[Lolster]

One thing I would say is distinctive is the borderline smile.  It's a particular type of fake smile.  It's a smile of pretending to be happy with a smile (which many people, most of them not people with borderline personality disorder, do from time to time) combined with a look of absolute fear and terror.  Like imagine how your eyes would look if you saw someone being beat to beat in front of you.  What amazes me is that they can walk around and do anything with that look of terror.  It's incredible to watch, once you're detached from it.

I think the smile is what added to the crazy look in my BPD's eyes.  He only turned the smile on when he looked directly at me, otherwise he looked blank.

[LettingGo14]

I definitely support the comfort in shared experiences here; however, like earlier, I would merely caution that a "look" is a highly subjective thing.   While I understand that trained professionals (e.g., police) may receive specialized training to decipher body language, our path to healing may be best served by turning the mirrors on ourselves.

I was stuck for a long time.  I wanted to ensure that I was not the crazy one.  So, I get the value of sharing experiences.

I like this chart, which shows how we go from Victim to Survivor to Thriver:

[freedom33]

That's a great chart. How do we get to thriver?

[ajr5679]

yes her whole face would change. everybody., even. her kid could see it. we called her m123. and we all knew when to run. her eyes would become red. I would tell her to put away m2 when she would get triggered. sometimes it would work but if m3 came out this is when the trigger was so strong and she was turning to the npd  side. this is when the craziness would start

[LettingGo14]

That's a great chart. How do we get to thriver?

Truly, that is the million dollar question.  I think we work the stages of detachment (see chart on the right) as well as figure out which tools and techniques give us space to heal.   

My favorite line in the chart says:  Victim lives in past, Survivor is aware of patterns, and Thriver lives in the Now.   For me, this meant letting go of the past, and learning to avoid the "wreckage of the future" -- at times, it meant living almost breath to breath (as in meditation) and seeing that the present moment is truly the life I have.

[toomanytears]

I definitely support the comfort in shared experiences here; however, like earlier, I would merely caution that a "look" is a highly subjective thing.   While I understand that trained professionals (e.g., police) may receive specialized training to decipher body language, our path to healing may be best served by turning the mirrors on ourselves.

I was stuck for a long time.  I wanted to ensure that I was not the crazy one.  So, I get the value of sharing experiences.

I like this chart, which shows how we go from Victim to Survivor to Thriver:

Interesting chart. My guess is that most of us here are in the survivor getting to the thriver column.  I don't  recognise myself at all in the victim column except for the final one. I could never have lived with a BPDh for so long... .the victim column describes how I'm guessing my stbxh feels... .

[toomanytears]

Can I just ask with the dilated/ wide pupils was it only when they where raging?

Also people have mentioned in another post about their SO not remembering what they had said when raging. If anyone could remember if the wide eyes and memory blanks where at the same time it would be greatly appreciated.

I first noticed it when my h raged.  Then I began to spot it much earlier on and it indicated when a period of splitting was being triggered. I'd suggest pupil dilation is not unique to people with BPD.  It often happens when people get angry or scared and I've seen it in others.

[enlighten me]

Thanks e reply toomanytears.

Just trying to piece together some stuff. Its interesting that you said you would spot it earlier on though. Gives me food for thought.

[Jareth89]

One thing I would say is distinctive is the borderline smile.  It's a particular type of fake smile.  It's a smile of pretending to be happy with a smile (which many people, most of them not people with borderline personality disorder, do from time to time) combined with a look of absolute fear and terror.  Like imagine how your eyes would look if you saw someone being beat to beat in front of you.  What amazes me is that they can walk around and do anything with that look of terror.  It's incredible to watch, once you're detached from it.

This is absolutely a bizarre but true feature of BPD. The grin is disguising hostility/strong discomfort. It's difficult to find a picture that can represent this and I could only find a picture of a child which came close, but a more menacing version of picture 3 in this link...if you can imagine it on an adult. www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201807/12/WS5b471fe8a310796df4df6179_2.html

[pest947]

"

Everyone who replied gave her the wow beautiful reaction though.

That's what people are going to say on Facebook though. Even with folks that most would agree are not especially so. 

[pest947]

I agree that eyes do give a feel for one's mental condition. They do reflect one's psychological state. In my girlfriend's eyes there would this pure intense energy combined with a hollow look. Also there was a feeling of agitation, of tension, mental angst. I am not reading into this. I noticed this before I realised the problems and what BPD was.

I do believe in my ExBPD  case her behavior wasn't necessarily on purpose or rather purposefully malicious  but there was definitely a fear of abandonment, high emotionality, followed by splitting me black, turning hyper critical before dismissing. She would "come to" but her high level of emotionality never let it stick...anyway   

I would have to agree here. There is definitely a look in her eyes when she would split me, I mean something beyond "angry eyes" anyone can have those. It was like a switch flipped and I can relate to the hollow/hateful stare others have mentioned here. Though after reading this article and looking back on pictures I can see that "hallow look" in many but not all pictures where she was happy.

When happy it was different or I thought so at the time. I look back at some pictures where we were "happy"

[Teno]

A while back I read about the "thousand yard stare" and the "flat affect".

The thousand-yard stare or two-thousand-yard stare is a phrase often used to describe the blank, unfocused gaze of soldiers who have become emotionally detached from the horrors around them. It is also sometimes used more generally to describe the look of dissociation among victims of other types of trauma.

People with depression and schizophrenia often show flat affect.

[Cromwell]

One thing which I am still undecided whether it's scary or sad was the hollow eyes I saw on my BPD ex after the episode we had during her last visit. It was the only time I saw her like that. She'd had an absolutely horrible raging episode with me, the worst one ever, and afterwards it was like she'd burned out. Her eyes were just hollow. Not angry, intense or hateful, just empty. I am still baffled by it. Where her mind was in that moment I do not know. Scary, sad or both I cannot decide.

fight-or-flight mode and then became fatigued after?

How did you react also? The perceptions we have can alter too depending on how much our own nervous system becomes stimulated in reaction to it.

[Arthas124]

Hi ! I know this is not the most important subject in here, but I' m very curious.

I wonder if your exBPD have "weird" or even scary facial features ?

I finally got rid of my exBPD (YAY!). He was totally obsessive and now I'm very picky to chose my next relationship. I' m trying to find a healthy partner now. I though about my ex and I realized his facial features was not normal, I should have seen he has a dysfunctional personality. I have to say I never though he was attractive, I always saw something was not normal. Just by his face ! Now I really wonder why I went into a relationship with this man. I don't know, something in his eyes is really scary.

Am I the only one ?

I'm going to broaden the subject and add something more than just facial features. The most noticeable ones are scars if you get to undress your partner. If she didn't tell you about them earlier, you need to know that something is wrong. Not that scars define if your partner is BPD or not, but it was it in my case, she told me about her 'problems' when it was too late for me and when she was sure that she had me under her spell. Piercing, like the need of adding more and more of it and the same goes for tattoos. Dying her hair alot, trying different looks (not only of her hair) and different colors.

Back to the facial features, my exBPD/NPD gf had that 'spark' in her eyes when she was happy, wanted to have sex with me (or during an intercourse), when she was spending lots of money etc. When she had her breakdowns her eyes were just full of sadness and depression (even a 5 year old kid would easily read it from her eyes) and a while later just hollow. When she was lying to me (and cheating on me) I learned that her eyes were blurrier, there was this strange tint to them and I could feel that something is wrong. After I finally broke up with her and I met her at the concert with her ex bf, one of her current toys (about a week later), her eyes were full of hate and hostility, like she wanted to split me in half, her eyes were awfully trying to make me feel pain and guilt. It's hard to describe it now, I have never seen something like that in my whole life. She also had that specific fake smile back then.

[Rev]

There is something about their eyes. Her eyes were electric. If she was happy they would radiate such uplifting energy. But as time passed they were more and more intensely filled with anger and angst at times. Very strong and intense stare. Scary and hard to look at at times.

Enlighten me - I agree with you on trust. I just never imagined that people like this existed. But now after what I have been through I am like a BPD radar. There is that intensity, drama and masquerade that comes with them that I can't forget.

I echo all of this...  The eyes were the worst.  They extinguished at one point to become either vacant or full of anger.

Rev

[SinisterComplex]

So since I seen someone mentioning something to do with the eyes I would have to say I agree.

Now why I would say this is based on my experience with my ex wife, my niece, my ex friend/almost gf (just an odd situation altogether), and another ex gf.

What I have noticed is their eyes tend to bounce and dart around frantically. What I would attribute this to is most likely trauma they have experienced. Because of that trauma in their past they have high anxiety and have a real nervousness to them. Now I do not believe this is just something people with BPD have in common. Actually, I would say this is something I believe is tied to people who have dealt with severe trauma and suffer from PTSD as well.

Ultimately through my own extensive studies in human behavior I sometimes wonder if BPD is simply a manifestation of PTSD. PTSD is such a complex disorder in its own right that many a time when people are diagnosed with other disorders it is PTSD that is the root cause. Just some food for thought. There will be many differing opinions of course, but I do believe my professor during Abnormal psychology was onto something saying that PTSD is essentially like the DHEA hormone...PTSD is the mother of all disorders like DHEA is the mother of all hormones.

Cheers!

[Borderlined]

I find it sad. People with BPD are people with a mental illness created by Satin. Inside they are people that want what everyone wants. Yet a force created them to act in a way that hurts them and people they love and love them. And that hurt sucks the happiness our of the life's of everyone. When I'm free of this I feel like I'll be hand shy like a beaten puppy when getting close to someone again
I  The most apparent sign is if you leave a disagreement with your mouth hanging open wondering how the most simple black and white situation or even expecting an apology and the whole situation is flipped around and I have no idea how it happened,  I'll just go to my truck and leave not saying a word. I will know that person has BPD and I will never deal with this again. By choice

[PeteWitsend]

Posting to concur with what other's have said about the eyes.

In my ubpdXW I noticed her eyes get unusually wide and "crazy"
during two occasions:

1) when she was interested in someone (typically male) her eyes would get wide as she listened to them speak, and she had sort of a longing gaze, as though she were mesmerized. 

I'm reminded of something I read years ago regarding BPD in women, that they often exhibited a "childlike innocence and curiosity" when in the "honeymoon phase" of a relationship. 

Men find it very flattering to have  a women listening to their every word, wide eyed, as though they are the most interesting man in the world.

She knew how to reel them in...

2) When she was angry... the same wide-eyed look took on a bottomless feel to me, like there was no reasoning with her, or limit to the things she would allege or say. 

When I'd see the latter, I knew I had just stepped into THE TWILIGHT ZONE... and needed to get the heck out of there.

[JerichoJax]

I had never really thought about it.  I went back and looked on social media and things I have around.  There is that stare and look in his eyes of emptiness.  Pictures where I can tell his smile is real his eyes look happy.  Almost every picture though since he left I see that cold emptiness. 

I am still pulling splinters from my brain and doing this caused me to remember those looks.  My sister had commented about his stares back during the summer.  I guess the eyes do tell us something.

[Rev]

Yup, crazy stare whenever he was focused directly on me.  It was the same stare regardless of whether we were just chatting or having sex.  Very intense and odd, almost alien like.

totally vacant stare

[JerichoJax]

Ultimately through my own extensive studies in human behavior I sometimes wonder if BPD is simply a manifestation of PTSD. PTSD is such a complex disorder in its own right that many a time when people are diagnosed with other disorders it is PTSD that is the root cause. Just some food for thought. There will be many differing opinions of course, but I do believe my professor during Abnormal psychology was onto something saying that PTSD is essentially like the DHEA hormone...PTSD is the mother of all disorders like DHEA is the mother of all hormones.

My therapist that specializes in personality disorders outlined to me that some therapists will only diagnose PTSD not BPD.  In essence BPD is PTSD combined with learned defensive mechanisms and behaviors that have become engrained in the personality.  Further they don't know if it is the trauma from childhood or chromosome #9 involved as often those with BPD and NPD have areas of the brain that are underdeveloped as found in MRIs done of those with diagnosed Cluster B PDs and those without.  Either way what it comes down to is we were dealing with a child in an adults body and they never emotionally matured because of their childhood.  

[SinisterComplex]

Jericho, you essentially you used a phrase I have used on here multiple times now..." a child in an adults body and they never emotionally matured because of their childhood." LOL.

Anyway, being the ultimate bloodhound that I am I will continue to research human behavior until I reach my final destination and even then...we as humans may never have conclusive evidence to give a 100% accurate answer.

This is why I have always loved studying the human condition and human behavior...it is so complex, ever evolving, and just when you think you have things figured out you get dealt a swift kick to the balls to give you a reality check that you still don't know jack sh*t. hahaha :-D

Thank you for progressing the conversation on that point and I am going to stay away from getting too in depth on chromosomes...I will end up hijacking this thread too much and go full mad scientist. ;-)

Cheers to you!

-SC-