Boundaries question about parental behavior around kids

[byasliver]

My uBPDh is continually disregarding rules we both agreed to concerning our son: encouraging our son to sleep in his own bed, not letting our son sit in the front seat of our car (this is actually illegal in our state because he is too young/too small), not cussing in around any of the kids, not insulting any of the kids to their faces or to another child.

I understand that boundaries about about what WE will do but does that mean I insist on putting our son to sleep myself each night, not let him go anywhere with his father? And what about the other behaviors? Do I make him leave the room? Do I remove the child from the room?

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[Mara2]

I wish that I had this board years ago.  I allowed my H to continue behaviors that were damaging to our son because I did not have the tools that are available here.  I didn't know what was going on. 

You are the only one in a position to protect your son.  Yes, you should not allow your son to go with your H unless son is in the back seat.  Yes, remove the child from harmful behavior.  No, your H will not like it so you will have to be strong. 

My H used to rage at me if I stood up for son against bad behavior and would tell me that I am choosing son over him and things like that.  I had to learn to not give in to manipulative statements like that and protect our children first.  If H will choose bad behavior, I will choose to protect the children. 

[Mono No Aware]

You are the only one in a position to protect your son.  Yes, you should not allow your son to go with your H unless son is in the back seat.  Yes, remove the child from harmful behavior.  No, your H will not like it so you will have to be strong. 

My H used to rage at me if I stood up for son against bad behavior and would tell me that I am choosing son over him and things like that.  I had to learn to not give in to manipulative statements like that and protect our children first.  If H will choose bad behavior, I will choose to protect the children. 

+100!

Protect the kid!

The car safety issue makes my diffculties with my uBPDw giving our son too much junk food minor by comparison.

[byasliver]

Thanks, guys. Now to figure out how to enforce these boundaries without setting off a rage episode. As for the car seat, I have found out that our law does allow for our son to sit in the front seat but barely. I still strongly feel like it is unsafe. I did not allow any of my daughters to ride in the front seat until they were 8 or older and not until they could safely/comfortably sit in a seat without a booster and with the seat belt positioned properly. He is not aware that I know he has continued to break that rule and I know that confronting him would start a rage. The only thing I know to do is wait until the situation comes up again and then watch them get into the car and bring it up then if I need to.

Same with the behavior that occurs with all the kids: the cussing, insults, etc. Just have to figure out how to enforce those boundaries carefully.

Mono, I feel for you about the junk food but hang in there. My ex (not current husband) buys so much processed food and unhealthy foods but to him they are just "convenience" foods. Our daughters finally realized that when they visited with him, they felt horrible after a day or two. Now, they either eat very little with him or insist on him buying healthier foods. It's not that I don't have any processed foods in our house but they are very limited. My oldest daughter used to be the worst about hating all the fresh foods we had in the house but now she is the best about avoiding junk food!

[addicted2pizza]

My uBPDh is continually disregarding rules we both agreed to concerning our son: encouraging our son to sleep in his own bed, not letting our son sit in the front seat of our car (this is actually illegal in our state because he is too young/too small), not cussing in around any of the kids, not insulting any of the kids to their faces or to another child.

I understand that boundaries about about what WE will do but does that mean I insist on putting our son to sleep myself each night, not let him go anywhere with his father? And what about the other behaviors? Do I make him leave the room? Do I remove the child from the room?

Wow, another post that hits so close to home. My uBPDW does this stuff all the time. Not necessarily something that will put our 3 yo son in imminent danger, but other things. Like letting him stay up till 9 PM, even though we've agreed not to do that. Sleeping in his own bed, cursing.

One of my pet peeves is that the members of her family talk like sailors around our son, and I've asked her to let them know it's not right. But of course it doesn't happen.

I've tried putting our son to sleep myself, but he doesn't let me, unless it's just me and him. In which case, he goes to sleep early. It seems that he has already learned that she allows him to do it, but I don't... .  

[snowmanstephan]

Remember you are dealing with a BPD. Someone with the emotional immaturity of a pre-adolescent. Talk with them everytime you are in the car with them about seat belts and safety. Even when the BPD is present. Not in any way condescending but as a learning moment. BPD will probably chime in as if it was their idea. Good for you, you are one step ahead... . In some ways your kids are more developed that the BPD. At least they are receptive! Teach your kids to protect themselves. This will work very well when they are teens and beyond... . making the correct decisions... .   I trust my kids way more than my BPD wife. Regarding bad behavoir and punishment; Teach the kids how to react to the BPD. Tell them there are things they can control and things they cannot. They do not understand why they are sometimes screamed at and grounded for life over seamingly small things and nothing other times. But they do know that the punishment is not fitting... . I have written down and posted on the wall some family rules with appropriate punishments attached. This helps take the sting out of a blow up moment and responsibality off mom.  I think the most effective punishment is take away liberties like video games or in foul cases they clean a bathroom or two everyday for 1,2 or 3 days... .   I have them practice scenarios with me. What should you do when a person (mom) over reacts... .   Not to acquiesce and not to react by meeting her level of outburst but to be calm, listen and not take it personally... . tough fot the little ones. Sad but true... . My 9 year old was subject to that yesterday and she stood there clamly. When mom stopped yelling and my little one for getting crumbs on the floor, she looked at mom and said with puppy dog eyes; Mom, How will I go to college if I am still in my room?

[byasliver]

Giving this a bump because I almost posted a new thread on this topic but it is still basically this issue. I have gotten some of the behaviors under control (like behavior when driving) but I'm still having a recurring issue with H's tone of voice when speaking to the kids and just how he talks to them in general. For example, instead of just reminding our S6 to put his dirty dishes in the sink after eating he will add, "And why do I have to remind you? Because you don't know how to listen." Or when he tells S6 to clean his room he'll add, "You're too lazy to do this without my telling you. If it's not done in 5 minutes I'm throwing all your toys away." There are always insults added and sometimes extreme threats. Before anyone says that I should talk to my H alone at a time when he is calm and seems receptive, that's been done - MANY times. We are also supposed to be taking an online parenting class right now and it covers those very issues. However, my H hasn't even started it even though we're supposed to be on week 3 by now.

If I correct him in the moment,, however nicely and kindly, wouldn't it send a message to the kids that I am undermining his authority? But if I don't, aren't I sending the message that speaking that way is acceptable? We're not talking about incidents where he is raging/yelling or giving some long lecture - it's usually just a sentence or two just like the examples I gave. There is no appealing to his senses because he doesn't see anything at all wrong with his behavior and if I try to stop/correct it in the moment, he will get upset and possibly rage. I know this is affecting the kids, though. I had family members point out last night how reserved and withdrawn my kids were acting around H.

I've come a long way myself - but my worry now is the kids. H's behavior isn't to the point of really being considered "verbal abuse" but it is right there on the line.

[zaqsert]

byasilver, this is a great question, and one that I am still working on figuring out with my uBPDw and our D2.

Just two days ago, my wife blew up at our DD because DD tripped and fell on her.  My wife insisted that she had done it on purpose.  I'm still waiting for a calm moment to bring it up, probably trying DEARMAN.  I will probably wait for another day because today my wife already dysregulated.  I walked away, and she has not mentioned the event since then.  But just in case... .

Blazing Star, yeeter, and others had really good suggestions in a thread earlier this year:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=197589.0;all

Does anything here seem worth trying for you?

[allibaba]

Or when he tells S6 to clean his room he'll add, "You're too lazy to do this without my telling you. If it's not done in 5 minutes I'm throwing all your toys away." There are always insults added and sometimes extreme threats.

Byasilver,

I'm not writing to give solutions or suggestions but rather to say that this hit a very real chord with me.  My mom used to do and say this stuff to me (high functioning uBPD).  I remember very clearly her going into my room when I was maybe 5 yrs old and taking everything out of the drawers and closet and throwing it into the middle of the room.  The horror of a little girl watching all of her stuff thrown into a pile and then she told me that I had 20 minutes to put everything away and whatever was in the pile at the end would be put into a garbage bag.  Your story actually made me teary eyed.  I can't remember the outcome of what happens but its a painful memory.

If I correct him in the moment,, however nicely and kindly, wouldn't it send a message to the kids that I am undermining his authority?

Not sure but I see why you are being very careful.

I know this is affecting the kids, though. I had family members point out last night how reserved and withdrawn my kids were acting around H.

One thing that pretty much saved me was that my dad was always calm and consistent.  He took me out on my own on a regular basis and explained that sometimes my mother acted crazy but he reassured me over and over again that I had not caused her to act crazy.  He told me that I still needed to respect my mother but sometimes she just didn't act like herself.  We didn't have the most functional family in the world, but that little secret between him and I (the fact that my mom had some bizarre behavior)... . I am 100% sure that it helped me from losing my mind... . Whenever my mom felt off balance... . she would pull me out of bed in the middle of the night and lecture me... . And all I could hear was my dad saying in my mind... . DON'T WORRY ABOUT YOUR MOTHER.  ITS HER NOT YOU.

I am sure that there are a few things wrong with this approach, but don't underestimate the power of discussing things with your kids once they are old enough.

[zaqsert]

Alibaba,

Thanks for sharing your story.  At what age do you remember your dad starting to talk with you about your mom's behaviors?

I try to validate my D2 as much as I can, be there to help her name and work through feelings, and tell her when it is not her fault.  I still wonder when she might be ready for various parts of the conversation.  I want to help her, but at the same time want to keep it age-appropriate and not go anywhere near any accidental alienation.  I suppose it may just be that when it is time, I will know.

Byasilver, I know your kids are older.

zaqsert

[allibaba]

I can't remember exactly what age these discussions started.  I was pretty mature for my age and I remember that starting from very early my dad treated me like a little adult.

I don't think that he started being more honest about my mom until I was at least 4 or 5.  I think that its very much dependent on the maturity of the child.

I think that it avoided accidental alienation because my dad loved my mom with every fiber of his being and even a small child knew that.  

Actually come to think of it... . when my husband's daughters were active members of our lives I did the same thing with them.  I think that I started with the youngest when she was 6.  I too made sure that they understood that I loved their father with every fiber of my being when we had these conversations.  I had to be SUPER careful because their mother was always trolling for information to use in her campaign against my husband and I didn't want to add fuel to the fire.  That was a tough one!

Unfortunately my husband's daughters were the victims of a serious alienation campaign by their horrible NPD mother.  She has been married 5x since she and my husband got divorced in 2002.  We fought hard to be in their lives until they got old enough to decide for themselves and then we bowed out.

[byasliver]

Wow! Thanks everyone for sharing your stories, advice and support. I do tell my kids I love them ALL the time even just at random moments. They know I love them dearly.

allibaba, I can really relate to your story. My mom has been an alcoholic for as long as I can remember. My dad was my constant and always made sure I knew I was loved and knew I had him to turn to.

My daughters are all teens and know to not let my H get to them and, for the most part, they just avoid him. As for my S6, I think I'm going to go at this with a two-pronged approach. First, when my H insults/threatens him, I will quietly pull my son aside and give him some reassurance and love. Second, I'm going to sit down with H sometime this week and discuss the parenting class we are taking. I will try very gently and with as much validation as I can muster to guide towards more appropriate forms of discipline. If that doesn't work, I know I'm going to have to enforce a boundary here.

[Blazing Star]

Hi byasliver,

Would love to hear how you get on!

This is something I have struggled with in the past too. For me the turning point was when I realised in these situations it was okay to put my children first - even if it means I may have to do some serious relationship repair afterwards.

However my partner really struggles with this, he feels undermined, and frustrated when I step in, which I understand. But there are some moments where I can see that I need to.

An approach that has helped me in the past is to talk about it really calmly and gently, with an attitude that I really want to find out what is going on with my partner when he speaks this way. Basically using reflective and active listening, and asking some gentle questions about his own parents helped us get to the bottom of where it stems. Not that this has magically cured everything, but it has made it us both more aware, and less and less do I have to step in.

- These conversations were had when we were both in a good space emotionally and childfree, like in the evening.

I also try to depersonalise it a bit, by explaining how it is in my biological makeup as mother to feel a strong need to step in and protect my children.

And I have modeled how I would like him to handle it when he feels he is losing it, by asking him to take over when I feel I am losing it, and afterwards when we are alone by affirming and validating his calm presence - by trusting and seeing the best in him he has really risen to this and met it. This wasn't quite as conscious as it sounds, and retrospectively I realise that it has been empowering for him to see how calm and respectful parenting can work for him - not sure if this makes sense.

We have also had strong words over it, when he is triggered, but it is a dealbreaker for me, aggressive talk towards the kids, and when he was throwing "Fine, I will leave then and you can see how you cope bringing them up by yourself" kind of comments I just stayed strong in my boundary.

Feel free to practice any SET or DEARMAN here if you need to, and let us know how it goes.

Love Blazing Star

[byasliver]

Honestly, I haven't been able to do much of anything about this for a few days but, thankfully, I haven't really needed to. I've been getting sick after eating at times lately, including Thursday night. I had allergy testing done Friday morning and they have determined that I am allergic to peppers. I get to carry a snazzy talking epipen and everything!  But I had unknowingly eaten peppers Thursday night and have been sick all weekend. Until today, H was being fairly calm and even a bit helpful.

[Blazing Star]

 

Oh that is no fun! Glad you know what the issue is now, and what to avoid.

Great that H has been okay. Keep us updated.

Love Blazing Star