The end or another cycle?

[LadyMay]

First and foremost, I want to start off by saying this group has been really helpful and incredibly supportive. Reading all of the other posts makes me feel not alone in any of this. Loving someone with BPD has felt very isolating at times. I feel people are quick to say "You can't fix crazy" and some closest to me ask why I put so much effort in trying to understand BPD. I try to understand, much like everyone on here, because I care.

My partner continues to split and I'm unsure of how to respond at this point. I don't know if it's leaning towards the actual end or if its another cycle as things in his life come to a head. I want to respect him and support him but not lose myself in the process. How do you know when they mean what they say? Does anyone have any good book recommendations about supporting loved ones with BPD/PTSD that have helped? I try to focus on feelings and not words. He tells me he can't be around me because when he sees me he wants mek, that he has to stick to his boundaries since I have a hard time with them. We've never had a discussion about boundaries, so I don't know what they are. Confused, I will not initiate physical contact without consent. I will ask if it's okay to hug him. He proceeds to hug me so tight it literally takes my breath away, he won't let go first. He'll bury his face in my neck and cry.

Last week, he said we were done. I said okay, if that's what he wanted we could exchange our things to make it official and for finality. No reply. The next day he offered to help me at work. He never announced his arrival to my unit but I could feel him looking at me. When I turned around I saw him sitting there looking at me incredibly sad. When we were in the elevator back to his floor, he stepped towards me. I didn't step towards him as much as I wanted to. After I returned to my unit, he texted me and said he wanted to hug me in the elevator. I met him and he basically grabbed me and held me so tight I was afraid he'd fall apart if I let go. I validated his feelings, said I knew he wasn't himself, that I was there for him, etc. He said he didn't know what he was doing. He kissed me and I said I didn't know what the boundaries were and didn't want to get in trouble for crossing them. He kissed me again. He acknowledged the lack of defined boundaries. He said he wanted to talk later but he got into his head and became distant. He was cold all week. When I asked him to confirm housesitting which he previously agreed to, he said he wouldn't housesit because he was done. I said okay. I again asked him to return my key and belongings, he agreed. I said he could be kind without being distant and cold, which upset him. He said he doesn't want to be cold or mean to me. I explained that while we may have discord, we can express our feelings in a loving, respectful way that is representative of our relationship and the love we have for one another. After some back and forth, I was able to disarm the defensiveness. He asked if I still wanted him, to which I said yes, then said he didn't have a chance to grab my belongings but would meet me.

He reiterated that never knows what version of me he's going to get and that he can't trust I won't hurt him. I realize what "version" of me he sees is dependent on whether or not he's splitting. I'm the same person, it's how he views me based on his emotions that changes. Is that worth sharing with him or would he view that as condescending? I know I'm not a mean person. When I confronted him about the affair, I told him I forgave him and kissed his forehead. He asked why I didn't hate him and I said I couldn't if I tried. I said I would be okay and that what I want most is for him to be happy. If I was going to lose myself in anger and resentment, it would've been then. There was nothing but love in that moment of heartbreak and vulnerability. The fact I don't react like he expects me to confuses him and makes me untrustworthy. I don't think he sees me as all black but rather a probability that I will become all black and repeat the abuse of those he once trusted and loved.

Since he has a terribly difficult time with confrontation in his personal life, I met him where he was at. I wrote him a letter that explained my understanding of his pain + thought processes, acknowledged my strengths and weaknesses, what I want for him (to feel safe, loved, protected, valued), what I wanted for myself. Before he read the letter he said he loved me and that I was what he wanted. He read all nine pages in front of me. He took it with him and said he wanted to read it again. I asked him what he wanted me to do and he said he needed time to process. The next day, he said he doesn't want to fight like he did with his ex, he doesn't want to yell or be yelled at. I agreed. Him yelling at me a few weeks ago was not in response to me but rather the culmination of external stressors. I reiterated yelling is not acceptable. Now he says he's made so many mistakes and caused too much damage and that sometimes there's no coming back.

So big take away questions...
1) Is it disrespectful to tell him I'm there for him when he says he's done? Does it come across as nonreceptive and tone deaf?
2) If he's so adamant about being done, why can't he return my key? It's literally on a keychain in his pocket
3) What is the best way to respond to guilt and shame without coming across as dismissive or invalidating?

Some might find interest in this - I had a dream not long ago that summarizes my personal experience loving someone with BPD. I was visiting my partner at a house he was staying in (wasn't home, more like a liminal space) and he took me to his bedroom where he felt private and safe. I was the first person he had let in there. There were no decorations, it was sparse. It contained his most precious things/memories. Everything in there had a purpose. On one wall there were racks and racks of combat gear, which confused me because it far exceeded what he would have had for his two deployments. There were multiples of everything and it was so neatly organized and well kept. Upon closer examination, I noticed it wasn't his gear but mine. He had kept all of my armor from all of the battles I'd fought. Sometimes I feel like I've been in a war I didn't even know about prior to being in it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tina7868]

Hi LadyMay! I`m sorry about the situation you are in with your partner. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I`ll get the ball rolling by sharing some thoughts and questions when it comes to your first big takeaway question. I`m sure other members will chime in with their experience as well 

1) Is it disrespectful to tell him I'm there for him when he says he's done? Does it come across as nonreceptive and tone deaf?

I think many of us in the group have been in a similar situation. It can feel like a no-win scenario; he could be saying he`s done, but actually be seeking some sort of validation. He could also genuinely be expressing that he wants space in that moment. It could also be anything in between. Also, as you have mentioned, the way he interprets your actions depend a lot on his own perceptions and mood at the time. All that to say, a big chunk of how you come across is out of your control.

And so, in such situations, I think it`s important to tap into what you are feeling, and what you think you should do. You know him best. How has he reacted in the past? In what way do you offer your support? What are you hoping to achieve by saying or not saying anything? By exploring these questions, you can stand behind your own actions, and know you are doing your best. Once you have that sorted, you can let go of the outcome whatever it may be.

[firehouse3]

1) Is it disrespectful to tell him I'm there for him when he says he's done? Does it come across as nonreceptive and tone deaf?

I told the pwPWD I'm seeing I would be there for her if she needed anything after she told me she was done with me.  She said 'No, Thanks'.

But it turns out she just wanted me to re-affirm my love for her.  I really believed she was going. I told her I was still always going to be here for her, that her decision broke my heart, etc etc.  But she kept talking and talking in circles about all the things she did for me etc.  She was wanting me to 'fight for her'. So I said 'please don't go', and the conversation changed to me begging for her to stay (which is what she wanted and got).

Something like that has happened 3 times.

2) If he's so adamant about being done, why can't he return my key? It's literally on a keychain in his pocket

I think he's stuck in the middle of a split and he's bouncing back and forth between the two.  If you want to continue a relationship with him, I would suggest just being supportive of him if you still like him that way, let him know where you stand on staying together and just wait his split out.  From what I read, most pwBPD have a very difficult time leaving someone, but when they decide to legitimately leave there's kind of 'finality' to it.  They lose all emotions and feelings for you.  Something I don't really see in your situation.

One of the hardest things I'm learning is having to stay consistent with a pwBPD, even when they aren't consistent with you with all their mood swings.  Even when the woman I'm with becomes cold, distant, angry, or whatever, I still have to be consistent in continuing to show love to her, or she'll take it as a sign I hate her or she's a bad person not worthy of my love.

3) What is the best way to respond to guilt and shame without coming across as dismissive or invalidating?

I'm not sure what you mean by this

Just reading your story I can tell you have a heart of gold.  I feel like people like me and you were specially designed to deal with pwBPD.

[kells76]

Hi again LadyMay, good to hear from you again.

Couple of thoughts on your questions.

1) Is it disrespectful to tell him I'm there for him when he says he's done? Does it come across as nonreceptive and tone deaf?

It may be less about "respect/disrespect" and more about inadvertent invalidation.

He's saying he's done -- he has feelings behind what he's saying. All of us, pwBPD included, want our feelings to be acknowledged and understood. There's a big gradient of skill levels in expressing feelings. pwBPD may have a low skill level at managing and expressing emotions, coupled with a high need for validation.

When he says "I'm done" and hears back "I'm there for you", what you may accidentally be communicating is "You're wrong -- we're not done", or "how you feel about the relationship doesn't matter", or "I don't hear what you're feeling". While none of those are what you intended, we can all be inadvertently invalidating, and that isn't effective in a relationship with a pwBPD -- sometimes it's like adding gas to a fire.

True validation isn't:

reassurance
positivity
encouragement
trying to get him to look at the bright side
reminding him of "what's real"
being calm
pointing things out

True validation is pausing, figuring out (or making your best guess at) the feelings behind his words (remember, he may have a skills deficit when it comes to verbal expression of feelings), putting yourself in his shoes (how would you feel if you felt that way), and sharing that. Also remember that validation isn't just saying words from a checklist. If you don't mean it, don't say it! It's also not just about words; tone and body language are huge.

I wonder how it might go if, when he says something like "I'm done with this relationship" or "we're over", you found a validating reply?

Because -- how would you feel to feel like the relationship was over? Sad? Upset? Confused? Overwhelmed? Other?

Him: "I'm done with the relationship"

You: (authentically) "Wow, that would feel so dark to feel that way". Or, "There must be a lot going on for you, to be done with the relationship."

There's no begging, "reminding", arguing him out of his feelings, "correcting", reassurance/encouragement, etc.

It's you, being OK with him feeling that way, and sharing that with him (again, note: this isn't about using the literal words "I'm OK with you feeling that way" -- that puts the focus on you instead of him in that moment, which can also be inadvertently invalidating).

What do you think?

...

2) If he's so adamant about being done, why can't he return my key? It's literally on a keychain in his pocket

It can help to remember that if BPD is involved, then he has a real, serious, and limiting mental illness. It's easy for us to think "why not just do ____________" but if it's BPD then his brain isn't going to work like a "generally normal" brain (I use that in a broad sense), especially under emotional stress. For some reason that may not make sense to us, not returning the key is doing something for him -- or, perhaps more likely, he isn't thinking about it at all, due to the overwhelming nature of his inner emotional experience. When the skyscraper is on fire you don't think about turning the lights off as you evacuate.

3) What is the best way to respond to guilt and shame without coming across as dismissive or invalidating?

I think really diving into our validation workshops is the way to go. The biggest win will be stopping inadvertent invalidation (we've all done it, join the club) first; then, moving towards genuine validation. There's a third workshop on common tips & traps of validation that is also worth it.

If you want, you can keep bringing some day-to-day examples of conversations here, and we can practice those skills with you on those actual examples. Want to give that a try?

[LadyMay]

Hi Tina7868 -

Thank you for taking the time to learn about my situation and commenting. I appreciate your support. It can be exhausting to feel like there's a constant need to validate who you truly are with words and actions. I try to remember "JADE"... never justify, argue, defend, or explain. I find myself struggling with the explanation part, but I think that's more a me thing. I always take time to explain a possible misunderstanding to people in my circle. I am unsure of what healthy boundaries look like when it comes to the propensity to overexplain. Also, I'm probably slightly neurotic as I think about and borderline obsess about social blunders for basically forever. It bothers me when I hurt someone's feelings albeit unintentionally. As you mentioned, a big chunk of how he views me is out of my control. That is hard to accept, especially on the bad days when I find myself overanalyzing my words and actions ie did I say too much, too little, did I say it right, did I say it not well enough, did I say it not often enough, etc.

As far as my feelings, sheer heartbreak sounds about right. I'm sure others on here can relate. To love someone so deeply not because they do anything for you but because you just do and to see them struggle. I aim to be consistent knowing I'm going to mess up as I learn. One step forward two steps back it seems. I try not to overwhelm when I feel the avoidance coming on strong. I will tell him to have a good day, that I love him, and offer my support. He always acknowledges. If he opens up to talk, I will engage. If he doesn't, I leave him be. Like you mentioned, I think it's important to consider desired outcomes with our words and actions. I explored the questions you asked and it helped me self-reflect quite a bit. I don't always know where he is, but I do know who I am and where I stand. I'm doing my best. Thank you.

[LadyMay]

Hi firehouse3!

1) Knowing how much all of this hurts, I really wish none of us had this kind of hurt in common, but alas, here we are. I am sorry to hear what you're going through. I'm not sure how BPD tends to manifest in men vs women. I, like you, am navigating this and learning along the way. The learning curve is steep! My pwBPD is quite the opposite, he says he does nothing for me and doesn't want to take anything from me because he doesn't want me to feel used. He says he doesn't deserve me, that I'm a good person, that he's a sh*tty person for hurting me, I'm a saint, he's a monster, garbage, etc. The only thing he has "attacked" me over is when I'm upset and he interprets my emotions as aggressive. The slightest of slights is magnified 100x. He doesn't feel seen or heard despite me seeing and hearing him. There is no begging so much as a need for reassurance.

2) I have a hard time with splits. They're inconsistent in their severity and duration. Sometimes they last for a few days, others a few weeks. Last week he was saying we were done. I gave him the letter on Saturday, Monday he asked if I was free to talk on Wednesday. Tuesday he texted asking what I wanted my life to look like. My response was centered on what I wanted for myself, not specific people. He followed up asking what my life would look like with him in it. I said heaven. He says he wears people thin. Then he goes on to describe his hang ups and what's holding him back. I am supportive of him and his happiness and I am clear about that. In my letter I was also clear on what I wanted for myself. I set the boundary that I am not an option if I am one of many choices before him (he cheated and I confronted him about it awhile ago). I am not a choice but the only choice, as he has only ever been for me and will continue to be should we continue together. I will always love him, yes, but I know my worth as a partner. Loving ourselves is hard. The push/pull is hard. It would be so much easier if there was finality but there isn't despite me giving him several opportunities to do so. I told him I'd wipe his tears as he broke my heart and wish him well. And I would, I really would. I want the best for him. I want him to have what he wants and want what he has. I think everyone on this board wants that for their pwBPD. Yesterday he texted me saying he wanted to see me this week and that he loved me. This morning he texted me saying he still wants me like he did in the beginning. You are absolutely right in needing to stay consistent even when they aren't. How do you do this without letting that effort drain you? Do you change your communication style at all when she withdraws and do you maintain consistency across the board?

3) He will tell me he is consumed by guilt and the shame of his mistakes. He'll say he's a bad person. It's the standard black and white thinking we seem to all be familiar with. I want to tell him he is a good person, because he is, but by doing so I invalidate his feelings. Does that make sense? I need help acknowledging his feelings and statements, even though they seem insane to me, as they are very real to him. I want to acknowledge his feelings without saying something that dismisses them or on the contrary, supports those self-depreciating sentiments.

You are so kind. It takes a lot to truly work on ourselves so we can better our relationships, not just the one with our pwBPD. Of my friends that know, some tell me to cut my losses and move on, that I'm better off without him. Most are much more empathetic and aren't anti-him but pro-boundaries. I still want him in my life but I have to maintain my boundaries on behaviors that are unacceptable for me. I know what I want for him, but I also want what I want for me, too. Hopefully this group will help me help him feel seen and heard.

[Pook075]

3) What is the best way to respond to guilt and shame without coming across as dismissive or invalidating?

I've been in a similar position with my ex wife and it's very difficult to know what to say or do in these situations.  For instance, last month she told me that it kills her inside to find out that she's hurt people, and she knows she's hurt me more than anyone else.

I just don't know what to do with that.  It sounds kind on surface level, but it's actually an incredibly narcissistic statement.  I can't feel sorry for her over intentionally hurting me and ripping apart our family (to chase another man).

So I made the response about me to lessen her guilt/shame.  I told her that I've forgiven her and I've healed, mostly through my faith.  Then I said that I still love her and hope that she'll be able to heal as well, to forgive herself. 

Because that's what is ultimately weighing on her, she can't understand why I haven't lashed out.  If I was the "bad guy" that she had to leave, then how have I been so good to her?  She just can't figure that out and it's eating at her.

[LadyMay]

Hi kells76 -

1) Thank you for hitting the nail on the head. I've been mistakingly inadvertently invalidating. I need help with that. It'll take practice but this is an important skill for any relationship, not just regarding pwBPD.

2) The analogy about the skyscraper being on fire really put things into perspective. This could be it, easier to leave loose ends loose versus facing an uncomfortable conversation. His ball cap that he had through his time in the service and with him on all of his deployments is still here. It means a lot to him but I suppose that, too, is worth sacrificing versus facing finality of a meaningful relationship with someone he cares about. Or maybe having the key is leaving a door open. I guess only he knows.

3) I would absolutely love to bring some real-time examples. He split again a few hours ago and I'm feeling rather defeated. I'm not sure how to respond. I really want to say "Hey, you have a lot of things going on in your life right now but I do, too. If you want to break up, this is an in person conversation that needs to happen tonight. I can bring your things to you or you can come here and grab them." Of course that isn't the outcome I want but if that's what he does, I'll give it to him. He prefaced he wouldn't say much today out of fear saying things he didn't mean. He's making big decisions when he isn't emotionally stable.

Here are some text examples:

Tuesday
 
Him: I worry. It feels often times there are big switches in how you talk to me and treat me.

Me: Something to talk about if you'd like. Assurances or concerns

Him: We can. That's my hang up. We can talk tomorrow maybe, just still processing

He goes on to reference previous instances of when I was mad. Understand I've never yelled at him or called him names or told him to get out or anything like that. No threats, no intimidation, no ultimatums. I asked him to elaborate what I say or do, he said he has and that the issues are still unresolved in his head (as far back as October 2022). During his affair, he avoided me so I couldn't yell at him even if I wanted to.

Him: This is killing me. I feel like a horrible person I know my mistakes I know you know them you have told me. It's just a constant barrage of all my mistakes day in and day out until I want to off myself I can't keep doing it

I didn't list his mistakes. I said I thought I handled confronting him about his affair well and I was able to do so based on learning from my mistakes from previous discord - deescalation tools he taught me tbh.

Today

Him: My divorce is finally finalized. I'm tired (this divorce was a years long process, escaping a very abusive relationship)

Me: I know. I love you. Let me know how I can support you today

Him: You can't I'm probably not going to talk much I don't want to be mean or say anything hurtful

Me: I'm not going anywhere

Him: What are you doing

Me: I have an appointment in an hour. Wanna go on a walk after?

Me: Sorry. I didnt' mean to come across as pushy. You just told me you weren't going to talk much and I was a bit tone deaf in suggesting that. Didn't think that out

Him: Hope your reiki went well. Want to meet somewhere while in town?

20 minutes later

Me: We can. Just got done. She's so grounding. I'm so glad I started seeing her. Still want to meet?

Him: Glad you get grounding. No can't right now

Me: Okay. I hope (sick child) has a better day

Him: I would love to get away and see you but not possible right now

Me: Everything okay?

Him: No

Me: Deep breath. I'm here for you, not going anywhere

Him: I think I'm just too messed up

Me: What's going on?

Him: I don't trust anyone and am emotionally damaged from all of this (long drawn out divorce, his mistakes)

Me: Please be patient with me. I'm not trying to make you feel invalidated by being overly positive. It feels so dark to be where you are...to feel that you can't trust anyone and that you're emotionally damaged beyond repair. I was there when we met. I do understand to an extent and I hate you're going through this. I'm trying to remember what you told me that got me through it. I love you very much and am here for you

Him: You're ok I'm the problem

Him: I think my decision still stands

My understanding:
- He is aware he is emotional
- He is overwhelmed

What unhinged me wants to say
- Come get it over with
- I'm sorry you're having a bad day but there's never going to be a good day for this

What caring, nurturing me wants to say
- You must be under a lot of stress to want to be done with our relationship
- I'm not fighting you on this, your wants and needs are valid
- This is an in-person conversation

Of note, he spent the past few days talking about needing and wanting to be intimate. Alas, any and all help welcome. TIA

[LadyMay]

Hey again Pook075 -

Good to hear from you. This is hard. I never know the right thing to say. The margin of error is so small. It's exhausting analyzing every word - intent vs perception (ie. I think my decision still stands vs My decision still stands). It's somewhat comforting to know that someone who has far more experience in navigating BPD still has difficulty knowing what to say or do when they talk about their guilt. I don't feel sorry for him cheating on me, not being there for me when we had miscarriages, not for lying so I don't say "It's okay, I know you didn't mean it." None of it was out of malice, but he knew he was spiraling and didn't do anything to help himself.

Like you, I frame my responses around me. I forgive him, I love him, I want to move forward and set up for the future not live in the past aka live in the present. I reiterate that I'm not dismissing his feelings regarding his mistakes but wanting to put my energy into moving forward. My energy is put towards the future. Like you, my pwBPD doesn't understand why I haven't lashed out. It confuses him and makes me even more untrustworthy. If I was that clingy and unhinged, why have I been so loving and patient? The most unhinged thing I did was knock on the door of the house he wasn't supposed to be at saying it was his fiance doing a wellness check. Surprisingly, he didn't yell at me over that. He said I wasn't crazy and that I had every right to do what I did. He was angry at himself, not me. That's when he broke down and said he doesn't know what's wrong with him, that he wants to get back to being a good person, the person I fell in love with. He said he's waiting for the shoe to drop because I'm so kind about everything (even when he gets upset with me for calling him out he says I do so lovingly, says I hold him accountable and while he doesn't like it he needs it). If I'm being honest, I'm waiting for my inner rage to erupt but there really is nothing there. The latter is what frustrates me the most. I should be angry, full of contempt, resentment - I have every reason to be - but there's just love.

[kells76]

Sometimes it seems like effective, constructive interaction with a pwBPD involves, on our end, accepting the dialectic -- the synthesis of opposites, as Marsha Linehan's DBT group phrased it. "It's this... and it's that... at the same time".

What I'm wondering about the dynamic where your partner gets overwhelmed and says "we're done / I'm done" is this -- could he mean it and not mean it at the same time? That can inform your response.

If we tip too far in the "he really means it, he's serious that it's over" direction, then we start giving weight to his words that they don't merit and doing extra legwork that isn't ours to do. This stood out to me:

Last week, he said we were done. I said okay, if that's what he wanted we could exchange our things to make it official and for finality. No reply. The next day he offered to help me at work. He never announced his arrival to my unit but I could feel him looking at me. When I turned around I saw him sitting there looking at me incredibly sad. When we were in the elevator back to his floor, he stepped towards me. I didn't step towards him as much as I wanted to. After I returned to my unit, he texted me and said he wanted to hug me in the elevator. I met him and he basically grabbed me and held me so tight I was afraid he'd fall apart if I let go. I validated his feelings, said I knew he wasn't himself, that I was there for him, etc. He said he didn't know what he was doing. He kissed me and I said I didn't know what the boundaries were and didn't want to get in trouble for crossing them. He kissed me again. He acknowledged the lack of defined boundaries. He said he wanted to talk later but he got into his head and became distant. He was cold all week. When I asked him to confirm housesitting which he previously agreed to, he said he wouldn't housesit because he was done. I said okay. I again asked him to return my key and belongings, he agreed. I said he could be kind without being distant and cold, which upset him. He said he doesn't want to be cold or mean to me. I explained that while we may have discord, we can express our feelings in a loving, respectful way that is representative of our relationship and the love we have for one another. After some back and forth, I was able to disarm the defensiveness. He asked if I still wanted him, to which I said yes, then said he didn't have a chance to grab my belongings but would meet me.

I'm wondering if because of his emotion-related skills deficits, that he uses words and phrases that have pretty universally accepted meanings, to express his harmfully intense emotions. And because human beings are wired to believe what others tell us (truly, imagine the converse), we treat what others say as expressing factual truths.

I'm not sure I'm doing a great job expressing a nuance I think is in there.

What I think I'm driving at is:

if he does "mean it" when he says "we're done", don't do the legwork for him of ironing out the details (exchanging stuff) if you don't also want to end the relationship.

if he doesn't "mean it", then offering to exchange stuff gives his words a weight and reality that they don't deserve.

There's a balance there and I think what I'm getting at is --

a breakup isn't ultimately up to him alone (not that I'm saying you want to or should).

If you want to break up (maybe you have decided that you don't choose to be in a relationship with a partner who expresses intense feelings by saying "I'm done with the relationship", for example -- again, just an example), then the ball is in your court. You aren't dependent on the moods of a person struggling with BPD to determine if the relationship will continue or not.

The "bluff calling" move -- he says "It's too much, I'm done, we're done", and you respond with "OK, well, give me my key back", doesn't sound like it's healing for either of you or the relationship; it sounds kind of damaging. It's a repetitive dynamic and it may be worth considering how to step out of your role in that dead-end and find a different way to interact with his "I'm done" statements.

I'm not sure that any of this is a huge 180 degree different point of view from where you're at -- but I do think there is a tweak there, away from "I guess I have to interact with his breakup statements like he means them" -- which is really focused on him, and his thoughts, and his actions, and what he might mean or not mean, and towards "What does LadyMay want?" Regardless of what anyone else is doing or saying or wanting or hinting, you have total control over your own boundaries (your own rules for yourself). You can decide if you are OK with being in a relationship with someone who says "I'm done with the relationship" as a way to express feelings. It might be OK with you -- and if so, you can decide, from that, that because you want to stay in the relationship, you won't do the legwork for your partner of ending it. If he means it -- if he wants to end things -- then it's his job to follow through, not yours, and it's your task to find ways to take care of your life that don't depend on his agreement or cooperation.

Maybe all that is to say that whether he "really means it" this time -- whether this is The End, or whether it's "just" another cycle, in a certain sense doesn't matter.

What does matter is what you are OK with letting into your life. It does sound like you want to be together, in which case you may need to radically accept that you are with a partner who, unless he chooses differently, will be expressing himself in ways that can really hurt. You can't change him -- that's not what the tools and skills here are about. Fortunately, the tools and skills are about making your own life more livable when committed to a pwBPD. You might work on ending invalidation, improving validation, and refining your own boundaries (rules for yourself), and find that even if he hasn't changed at all, your life is much more tolerable.

I don't want to give the impression either that "oh, they never mean what they say, it's all feelings, we can disregard it", or that "we have to teach them that words matter, by taking them literally". I think learning to speak BPD is like learning a second language -- it's neither "just say whatever feels right to you" nor "say these rote sentences". It's a learned skill that's part technically grounded and part free-form artistry. The challenge is in finding the balance, and a lot of it comes back to you and what you are OK with and what you are up for.

Is any of that close to on target, or still a ways off?

[kells76]

The thought just struck me now -- one way of looking at the current dynamic (he gets overwhelmed, he says "the relationship is over", and you engage with him) is that he gets rewarded with closeness, interaction, and togetherness after he says "I'm done with this".

I wonder if it could help to remove the "reward" for him "ending the relationship"?

What if when he says things like that, he doesn't get positivity, closeness, and engagement?

Could that start to change things?

You know him best -- what do you think?

[LadyMay]

Hi kells76 -

I think you're right on target. The notion that "It's this... and it's that... at the same time" sums it up pretty well. I've worked on validating using the links you provided to and have been practicing. It isn't easy taking pause to really learn and acknowledge the emotion behind the words but it has helped disengage his defensiveness and deescalate big, negative feelings. I was thinking to myself how much work it is to learn this new language and how hard it is, but then looking at the big picture, it's all new to me because I wasn't validated myself growing up. As you mentioned, wanting to improve a relationship with a pwBPD requires work and self-reflection. I initially started working on myself for him but the deeper I go, it's more for me and improving all of my relationships, not just this one.

I think when my pwBPD says he's done, he isn't done with me but rather the internal struggle of trying to figure out if I'm good or bad, if I will follow the footsteps of others that have loved him that have gone on to hurt him. Reading about BPD on Reddit can be a bit negative if I go too far down the rabbit hole, as I read we never know the real "self" of someone with BPD because they have a hard time knowing their own true identity. It's a hard pill to swallow as I interpret that as the person I fell in love with may not be real and that it's possible he molded himself to be the person he knew I would want.

if he does "mean it" when he says "we're done", don't do the legwork for him of ironing out the details (exchanging stuff) if you don't also want to end the relationship.

if he doesn't "mean it", then offering to exchange stuff gives his words a weight and reality that they don't deserve.

I think this is a pretty huge observation, especially the latter. In the past when he's said he's done and I inadvertently invalidated (i.e. I love you, I'm here for you, etc.), he would fire back that he was serious and that I don't respect what it is he says. I was validating his words but not his emotions. We had some fairly decent conversation over the weekend and my validation practice paid off as he came out with these two statements that gave a lot of insight into what he is processing:

"I'll convince myself this is working. I will try to transition it won't happen fast enough, then you will get frustrated and defensive and then I will respond. That's the cycle."

"The question is do I believe this is not a pattern that is going to repeat itself because it's not healthy for either of us"

When I succeed in acknowledging his feelings and validating them, it disarms his big emotions and calms him. A win! But because I haven't always been successful in doing this, he goes back and forth between past and present. I think validation helped me get these two big statements out of him that gave a more honest reflection of what he's going through. He is the one that initiates big relationship goals and has previously given himself timelines about moving forward. Sometimes I don't know he's given himself goals until he tells me he failed to meet them (i.e. moving in on a certain date, calling me when he's on his own to/from work, etc.) When he fails to meet his own goals and deadlines, I feel he seeks out my flaws to prove to himself that I am the cause that makes him doubt when really he's angry at himself for not being to move past old traumas and past mistakes.

Instead of saying he was done, this week he focused on wanting to know what my understanding of our relationship was. I'm sure that doesn't seem like much of an improvement, but I think it's a good thing he's asking about our status and wanting to discuss versus telling me what it was. I don't want to change who he is and what makes him, him. I do want to start being able to shift from what he wants, what's best for him to what I want and what's best for me. I can't convince him that the patterns he's observing aren't real - they are real to him. If he wants this, which he says he does, he has to put in the work. I think it's important to detach a bit and instead of being devoted to him completely that I be a bit devoted to myself, too.

I thought about what's happened previously when he gets overwhelmed and says that he's done. If I accept his words, he avoids having "the conversation" with me because it would be him having to accept the true meaning of what he says. I wouldn't say that I reward him with closeness or interaction but I tell him I love/support him regardless. He doesn't know what to do with that. If I push back or "chase", he accuses me of not respecting his no. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. I wonder how many people with pwBPD ever get a traditional breakup conversation? There seems to be a lot of ghosting and distancing/avoidance of the uncomfortable. I do agree with you - if he wants to end things, it's his responsibility to end things. I can't do the work of maintaining and ending the relationship. He knows what needs to be said for me to accept the true end of our relationship so I can move on. He won't say it. Like you said, he isn't the only one that end the relationship. If he can't respect my boundaries or meet my needs, I can end things, too.

Big takeaways for now:
-Improve validation
-End invalidation
-Work on my boundaries
-Express my wants
-If I don't want to end the relationship (I don't), avoid messages that promote ending things
-Don't rely on the mood of his BPD to determine the end of the relationship (since it changes a lot)

[LadyMay]

Update:

The validation has been going really well. It takes a lot of practice and is worth it. Today our conversation went like this:

Him: Woke up remembering who I am, done with a lot of this PLEASE READ

What I thought was oh is he done with me, what did I say or do wrong, what is he done with? I found myself anxious grasping at the situation and wanting to define it. Instead, I responded with “You have had a lot of things thrown at you, especially this past year. All we can ever do in the face of adversity is our best, which you have done. I know who you are. You're one of the best people I've ever met and I mean that.”

He tells me a few hours later to have a good day. Anxious me is thinking is this a formal sign off for the day? Is he talking to me out of obligation because it’s my birthday? Instead, “I hear you have a lot of things going through your head. Would you like to be left alone the rest of the day?” He said “Yes” and I replied “Okay. I love you.” I had no intention of reaching out to him but he messaged me two hours later asking what I was doing.

I’m still working on my personal boundaries with him but haven’t had the chance to discuss. One of the things I’ve worked on is becoming more detached from the situation. I’ve found the more obsessed I am in trying to sort things out as soon as possible, the more he shuts down or pulls away. Validating - listen and acknowledge - has made my life so much easier. I’ve also been working on letting go of being married to an outcome. Of course I’d love to work through things and be with him forever, but I’ve accepted it may not happen and I *have* to be okay with it regardless of how much I love him. All of this being said, he still talks to me everyday, is making an effort to want to do things together, talks about the future, etc. Validation and ending inadvertent invalidation has been huge I feel in how his communicates with me.
 

[kells76]

Great to hear that you've had some positive interactions with validation. I think you hit the nail on the head here:

The validation has been going really well. It takes a lot of practice and is worth it.

It is hard work -- and it is worth it for improved connection.

This makes sense, too:

Today our conversation went like this:

Him: Woke up remembering who I am, done with a lot of this PLEASE READ

What I thought was oh is he done with me, what did I say or do wrong, what is he done with? I found myself anxious grasping at the situation and wanting to define it. Instead, I responded with “You have had a lot of things thrown at you, especially this past year. All we can ever do in the face of adversity is our best, which you have done. I know who you are. You're one of the best people I've ever met and I mean that.”

I get the feeling of hearing a loved one say something that to anyone else, might be neutral, or innocuous, or "OK, sure, it's a 5/10, but not a 9/10", but something about it reminds you of history, and you just start cranking away on it... tying your emotions to what was said.

It sounds like you were able to pause for a second, and acknowledge what you would instinctively react with ("I have to know what I did, I have to fix it, I have to understand it, we have to solve it"), and move to a wiser space of finding a validation target in his statement.

Recognizing that our own anxiety can drive a lot of the dynamics is important. I have to recognize that about myself, too (my H's kids' mom has many BPD type traits, and some of that has rubbed off on the kids -- certain things they say flip that anxiety switch in me). Yes, the person we're involved with may have a PD, but we contribute to the way the relationship goes, too, to some extent.

He tells me a few hours later to have a good day. Anxious me is thinking is this a formal sign off for the day? Is he talking to me out of obligation because it’s my birthday? Instead, “I hear you have a lot of things going through your head. Would you like to be left alone the rest of the day?” He said “Yes” and I replied “Okay. I love you.” I had no intention of reaching out to him but he messaged me two hours later asking what I was doing.

I wonder if that new kind of interaction gave him space and time to self-soothe? If I'm remembering correctly, he has done some DBT, so he knows some tools and skills?

I’m still working on my personal boundaries with him but haven’t had the chance to discuss.

Are you thinking of discussing your personal boundaries with him, or here, or...?

One of the things I’ve worked on is becoming more detached from the situation. I’ve found the more obsessed I am in trying to sort things out as soon as possible, the more he shuts down or pulls away. Validating - listen and acknowledge - has made my life so much easier. I’ve also been working on letting go of being married to an outcome. Of course I’d love to work through things and be with him forever, but I’ve accepted it may not happen and I *have* to be okay with it regardless of how much I love him. All of this being said, he still talks to me everyday, is making an effort to want to do things together, talks about the future, etc. Validation and ending inadvertent invalidation has been huge I feel in how his communicates with me.

Seems like good info to have about your dynamic. As weird as it sounds, I wonder if -- regardless of your intent -- it "landed" for him as too much focus on your feelings, even though the language was about his feelings, if that makes sense? So now, even though you aren't talking about him and his experience and what's going on, it "lands" as much more caring to him. I guess what I'm getting at is -- maybe in the past, "talking about him and what he said" was a way for you to self-soothe, and now you're also finding new ways to manage and care for your emotions. You can accept that he feels how he feels, and that you can find new ways to care about yourself, that aren't tied to dissecting his words and experiences. I hope that makes some sense -- this could be a good thing for both of you, to take the pressure off of "we have to understand all your words" and move back to "let's relate safely and positively to each other".

...

What has been the "easiest" part, and what has been the hardest part, of avoiding invalidation, for you?