How do you alleviate fears of engulfment

[Oncebitten]

I am curious as to what others do when their partner begins to feel engulfed and pushed you away.  I have become fairly adpet at handling the abandonment aspect of the disease.
 I understand how one can feel abandoned. Engulfment confuses me to be honest though.  My partner essentially begs me for more and more of myself... .they need never satisfied until this scenario pops up... .some outside stress that has nothing to do with me turns everything upside down and its off to the races, all future plans are canceled, never to be spoken of again, well at least until she misses those talks.

Am I forced to just let this run its cycle?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

Relationships are a delicate balance of intimacy and distance. Too much intimacy can lead to feelings of engulfment. Too much distance, and you get abandonment.

Knowing your history, slowly and gradually increasing the intimacy would probably go a long way in helping you. The two of you fight, she runs. She comes back. Things get intimatly intense again and the cycle repeats. Going from talking about ending the relationship to marriage in the span of days or weeks. A solid foundation, with healthy boundaries, would serve you well I would think.

Who is driving the relationship? Are you being the emotionally mature and responsible one?

[Curiously1]

I think you just back off when it is happening to balance it out again. I could be wrong. It's trial and error and depends on your BPD. Be creative and see what works. Maybe even beat her to it and say that you need some space for a while because YOU'RE feeling suffocated. Mirror them hehehe. Let the pwBPD come to you when they are ready just to be safe to be completely honest.

[Oncebitten]

meili


I know relationships are a balance, but this one is like a high wire act while juggling flaming swords... .problem is this is the first time I have had to juggle... .and I have only been out on the wire once before .

I need to slow down let her come to me, I know that never again certainly doesn't mean never again

[Meili]

With my xw, I used to describe the feeling like I was standing in a mine field trying to keep 10 plates spinning on sticks. Should one of the plates accidentally fall, it would set off a mine. [sarcasm]Great fun![/sarcasm]

Yep, not chasing and not running to offer consistency is a good plan. Be you. Live your life. Be stationary and stable.

[Oncebitten]

Meili

Spinning plates in a mine field feels about right too.   I have been consistent about what I want, in fact when she has offered anything less than that I have pretty much told her no.  She keeps pushing for a more causal relationship... .and I don't think that is because its what she really wants.  She has essentially said she is overwhelmed as it is... .Can you be consistent in wanting to spend the rest of your life, and be casual?

[Meili]

I would like to think that I'd have some level of being casual with the person that I'm spending the rest of my life with... .too much stress otherwise!

But, if talking of "forever" with her right now is pushing her away, why do it? I could be wrong here, but I'm reasonably sure that getting engaged or married won't be enough to quiet her fears.

I know that in my life, marrying my xw only escalated the fears and asking my x to marry me became a bigger fight than my not asking her to. It seems that in both cases, it just ramped up the "you're not good enough... .you never do anything right" comments that they would make.

I recently found out from both of those exes that she would tell me those things on purpose because she was not feeling good enough for me. It was their perceived, constant expectations that I would not accept them for who they are that pushed me away.

With my xw, I had no idea what was going on at the time. I reacted in all of the wrong ways. With my other x, well, you know that story... .the ow was the target for the "not good enough" responses.

So, rather than putting pressure on her by telling her that she's good enough, show her. Consistency in words and actions and all that. It doesn't have to be big, grandiose things either. In fact, it may be better if they aren't. Slow... .small... .steady... .consistent... .

Softly... .softly... .catchee monkey (look it up if you don't know what I'm talking about) 

[drained1996]

She keeps pushing for a more causal relationship... .and I don't think that is because its what she really wants

They tell us things that need to be heard sometimes.  You may be right she may want more... .but it may be what she needs... .or at least needs to feel it's like that to avoid her fear of engulfment. 

So how would you go about allowing something that is not casual in your mind appear to be casual while not really breaking your own boundaries?

[Lifewriter16]

Hi All.

I'd like to have a magic bullet for this one. Unfortunately, I found that the abandonment/engulfment issue was completely out of my control. My BPDxbf was tortured by his own conflict over these issues. It was heart rending and quite bizarre watching his emotions swing from push to pull and back again. He could shift positions multiple times in the space of a short raging episode. In the end, I had to accept that there was no way of me getting this scale to balance. Perhaps another person could have achieved this, but I didn't have the resilience, the strength or the conflict management skills to play the game required to keep the relationship on track. Eventually, I threw in the towel. I wish it could have been otherwise.

Lifewriter x

[Oncebitten]

Meili, yes I suppose patience is the key... .just starting to run out of it I guess.

Drained, here is what will happen, she will ask for more casual approach... .I will grant her that, and then very soon she will start talking about serious long term commitments, which I want so naturally I fal into that trap, she will then feel engulfed and cycle repeats.  I know that this is stupid, however with each cycle things slowly get better.  The fear of abandonment has subsidied dramatically.  Rarely is that an issue anymore, het fears of me leaving for another woman almost completely gone, and when she mentions it, it is almost just in passing.

I can give her more casual if that simply means we don't talk about future plans anymore.  And not violate my boundaries .  I just know once the cycle restarts it will be an issue bc "why dont you want to talk about the future anymore?"

LW

Id pay dearly for a magic bullet or at least a set of instructions .  it is amazing how you give them what they ask for and the moment they get it they dont want it anymore.

[Meili]

I just know once the cycle restarts it will be an issue bc "why dont you want to talk about the future anymore?"

So, talk about the future without talking about it if that's your concern.

Id pay dearly for a magic bullet or at least a set of instructions .

They start in the sidebar to the right of the page and continue in the lessons and workshops. You're welcome. Payment can be tendered by... .     

[drained1996]

and then very soon she will start talking about serious long term commitments, which I want so naturally I fall into that trap,

And who is in control of whether you fall into that trap or not?  Meili can probably expand on his earlier comment better than myself... .talk about it... .without talking about it. 

Expectations... .that might be a good place to focus as well.  What have you learned that you can expect from her?... .or rather, what do you know that you cannot expect to get from her? 

When you expect something and do not get it, it causes a let down... .that's natural.  One way to avoid being let down is to first understand our own expectations and then learn how to manage them.  Managing expectations should help you stay more consistently centered... .allowing you to use those tools and lessons Meili mentioned without getting as caught up in the dramatic reactions.

Two tidbits from my own therapist.

Stick with the process.
Don't get defensive. 

[Oncebitten]

if I can keep my emotions in check and  not get defensive it will go along way... .I let the "highs" with her set my expectations... .even though I know the bad is coming I still believe everything is great and we will be fine...
she gets so mad that I dont get upset about the situation... .I am cool and collected by a non standard so yes she believes me to not feel anything at times. I feel plenty but I know that me being emotional wont fix anything... .she needs me to be cool and calm... .and thats what I bring to the r/s... .she feels we need some time apart to cool off and re-evaluate... .gonna do my best to give it to her and let her come to me... .been a long time since I have done that.

[drained1996]

she gets so mad that I dont get upset about the situation... .I am cool and collected by a non standard so yes she believes me to not feel anything at times

Yes, I dealt with that too.  That's the way it can make them feel sometimes... .feelings=facts.  Understanding in that moment they do not have the emotional development to comprehend our calm is a healthy frame of mind to those circumstances  That's her problem... .not yours, so no need to be defensive.  Find a way you are comfortable with to validate how she may feel, but do not undermine the fact you are simply remaining calm and understanding in difficult circumstances. 

Stick with the process.
Don't get defensive. 

[Oncebitten]

I know what I am about to type out... .Know it very well... .have read it here and many other places... .its so very BPD and yet it just slapped me upside the head... .she begs me to be close... .wants more intimacy than I have ever given anyone... .we reach that point... .when two people couldn't possibly be any closer... .it may last hrs, days, weeks.  Doesnt matter, its never really me or the r/s that causes her to bolt, its always some outside influence, some external stress... .and then she starts.  Its slow, she is sad at first, turns to me and I might soothe her for a while... .but I miss some chance to validate, and then she pushes.  I try and settle things down, convince her that its not as bad as she thinks, re assure her that life and our relationship will be ok
It spirals out of control from there, and the cycle starts all over.

How do I stop the cylce and repair the r/s when she believes there is so much distance between us? I know there not to be, only thing between us are her current emotions.

[Meili]

Its slow, she is sad at first, turns to me and I might soothe her for a while... .but I miss some chance to validate, and then she pushes.  I try and settle things down, convince her that its not as bad as she thinks, re assure her that life and our relationship will be ok
It spirals out of control from there, and the cycle starts all over.

Please stop doing that! Your trying to convince her is telling her that her feelings are wrong and unjustified. They aren't, they are what they are and very real to her. Because of how intensely she feels emotions, they are her reality. When you try to convince her that her feelings are wrong, you are telling her that she is wrong.

How do I stop the cylce and repair the r/s when she believes there is so much distance between us?

To break the cycle and change the dynamic, you are going to be the one who has to do so. She won't do it. She really won't do it as long as you keep feeding it.

I know there not to be, only thing between us are her current emotions.

I think that I'm going to have to call you out on this one... .

By your admissions you fail to control your emotions, invalidate her feelings, and allow her to control the relationship. All are things over which you are have the power.  For some reason, you engage, escalate, and give control to her. Have you looked at why you do those things?

[Oncebitten]

I think that I'm going to have to call you out on this one... .

By your admissions you fail to control your emotions, invalidate her feelings, and allow her to control the relationship. All are things over which you are have the power.  For some reason, you engage, escalate, and give control to her. Have you looked at why you do those things?

I engage bc I care, her emotions get the better of me, and I dive into everything with her.

what I really need to do is detach a bit and quit taking everything she says literally, and accept the fact that validating her feelings does not me I did something wrong... .I think that's my biggest problem... .by trying to control her feelings I give her control of the r/s

[Meili]

I agree.

Now, you said that you engage because you care. What do you mean by that?

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I engage her when she gets upset because I care about her feelings.  When she gets upset I do see her as a bit of an emotional child, and just want to scoop her up and tell her its all ok... .problem is I need to validate all those feelings first before I try and soothe her.  Thats always my mistake,  my intentions in every talk/argument are good... .just try to hard to save her from herself thats all.  It can't be done

[Meili]

Yeah, it can be hard to remember that we can't save them from themselves when our emotions are heightened. I'm as guilty as anyone of falling down that bottomless well.

I try really hard to remember that just because I think that everything is OK doesn't mean that things are OK for the pwBPD in my world. Sometimes I'm far more successful than others!

[Oncebitten]

everything is not always going to be ok... .and thats ok kind of thing right?

[Meili]

Something like that, yeah.

Maybe some of the info in this old thread about How to respond to heightened emotions will prove useful to you.

[drained1996]

And in those instances of heightened emotions, it may be best to validate and gently remove yourself from the situation.  I often found allowing my BPD some time with sitting in her own emotions was a good thing.  Extracting our emotions from that process helps remedy the spiraling effect that can occur. 

[livednlearned]

Hey OnceBitten,

How do I stop the cylce and repair the r/s when she believes there is so much distance between us? I know there not to be, only thing between us are her current emotions.

The cycle probably starts when you dive into everything with her.

She is relating to a fantasy of you rather to the reality of you. She cannot see through her defensive structures, and you become entangled in them, treating them as real. You are both kind of in an instant replay of her abandonment scenarios.

For people with BPD, growing up was perceived as wrong. There was no reward for having a independent self. At the same time, they have a fear they can't take care of themselves.

Behaviors to avoid abandonment and engulfment are part of the same dynamic because they both avoid the fear associated with independence.

It sounds like you are working hard to not rescue or save her, which is good. Since she has fears of engulfment, you may want to really check how you validate, whether it's best to roll it back a bit, and focus on guarding her sense of autonomy and agency.

When she comes to you with a problem, ask her questions that reflect your confidence in her ability to solve things on her own.

And maybe look really closely at what you are getting from the dynamic when you soothe her. When you don't soothe her, when you give her space and don't sweep in to fix things, does that trigger anxiety in you?


 

[Oncebitten]

LNL

her simply running away every time things get bad triggers anxiety in me, she constantly tells me she wants to fix things and I ask what I should do and I never get anything from her... .we continue to have the same fights we have always had bc she refuses to forgive me and let go of what I did.  She tells me she doesn't care any more about any of it and yet she is still capable of raging at me for hrs on end about it. 

I am stuck in this vicious cycle with her and there is no way off of it accept walking away... .but I love her and thats not what I want

[Meili]

I know that you're stressed and tense right now, but... .

we continue to have the same fights we have always had bc she refuses to forgive me and let go of what I did. She tells me she doesn't care any more about any of it and yet she is still capable of raging at me for hrs on end about it. 

Do you think that possibly you keep having the same fights because you keep engaging in the fights? I mean, it takes both parties to have a fight does it not?

Why allow it to go on for hours on end?

I am stuck in this vicious cycle with her and there is no way off of it accept walking away... .

I would argue that there are other ways. Let's get back to basics:

Ending Conflict is one of the first things that we show people when they land here. Can we start there?

[drained1996]

And in those instances of heightened emotions, it may be best to validate and gently remove yourself from the situation.  I often found allowing my BPD some time with sitting in her own emotions was a good thing.  Extracting our emotions from that process helps remedy the spiraling effect that can occur.  

yeah, I quoted myself because I think this is important.  

Once... .do you get the point I'm making here? 

[Oncebitten]

drained

I see your point... .but its likely to little to late.  In my very typical way I tried to fix things with her again, always been really bothered by her being upset with me and the r/s... .all I have ever done is chase her which led to pushing her away... .think I finally pushed her to the breaking point.  for months nothing has changed or improved... .bc she wont let it... .despite what she says, I have tried and maybe she has too, but nothing I have ever done or was ever going to be able to do was going to be enough.  No amount of sorrow or apology is enough to fill whatever void she has.  Forgiveness must be granted it cant be earned, and she is unwilling to grant it, she would rather hold on to that anger, idealize a r/s that was bad from the start and use me as the reason for its failure, never recognizing her own failures or short commings in it.  But its ok, I can own my mistakes and take the blame for my 50%... .I fell short many times... .but I am not the sole reason it ended.

I realize that this is a bit off topic but needed to vent.