Nature vs. Nurture

[Diamond]

Which brings us to the point of how much is genetic and how much is environmental when it comes to our kids and their BPD labels.  Here is a thought, how many of us have some of these characteristics within us?  How many of us have grown up in a home with dysfunction?  How many of us have a direct line genetically with mental disorder? 

I feel strongly that genetics is the biggest factor in all of our children.  It can't be controlled, but it can be managed.  For me, it meant working out my own demons through education, understanding, and change.  I know that this would have helped my daughter growing up if I had better tools, but I don't think it would have been the cure.  What are your thoughts?

Diamond

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Oy-vey!]

Nature is a huge part of it, but nurture can mitigate whatever nature has handed out.

Of my S.O.'s two kids, the oldest one is BPD (as diagnosed by at least the school's counselor).  He is not a nice child.  The younger of the two is nice and polite, but plays the game of telling you what he thinks you want to hear.  He is not BPD.

Both kids grew up in a similar environment, except older was 2 when his parents divorced.  Younger was 1 at the time S.O. moved out.  Older was obviously exposed to more arguing in the home before the divorce.

Yet, for the last 9 years both kids have had the same experience with their parents not being together and the same amount of time with both parents.  Yet only one of them is exhibiting full blown BPD.

Every single person on this earth exhibits narcisstic traits (I don't know about borderline traits).  It is a fact of personality that we all have those N traits.  It is when those traits prohibit us from behaving normally that it is a disorder rather than normal personality traits.

From my experience with S.O.'s two kids - they were raised with the same set of "tools" and parenting skills.  They are certainly VERY different little boys in terms of their personality traits and disorder.

[irishayes]

Our son is almost an exact duplicate of my older brother.  He died at the age of 52 due to poor life choices.  Never got his act together and was not working for a year before his death.

My older sister also, I believe, is BPD.  She just recently purchased her first home (she is 62) but shortly thereafter filed bankruptcy (2nd or 3rd time) and is now not working.

We have 3 children.  Andrew is the only one who displays BPD.

[Barb0224]

I wrote the following a few days ago in the Common Behaviors section in a thread called "social dynamics of BPD." 

My daughter (third of four normal children:  two older sisters are teachers; youngest son has some issues because of living with a BPD sister, but he's OK) talks about her illness pretty openly, identifies herself that she fits all nine of the criteria, and says she knows exactly when her pain started:  when her younger brother was born and her older sister ("who had been my best friend in the WHOLE world!" "abandoned" her for the new baby.  As I've said before . . .  this is normal sibling rivalry, but because of the propensity for BPD, it triggered her illness and started her on the path of frantic attempts to avoid abandonment which continues to this day.  All of the classic manifestations of this illness occurred and are continuing today, and she is now 24.

I am a teacher.  She was raised in the self esteem generation (class of 2000).  We were sickeningly positive.  There was no abuse, no trauma.  I remember that we used to think, ":)oes she need trauma in this family for her to realize that life is not so bad?"

This of course was before I learned about BPD, her genetics, and her brain dysfunction.

Her grandfather and his father were probably BPD.  The family stories that are passed down are that he was a "raging" alcoholic.  My husband was raised in the kind of situation that so many . . . describe with BPD parents.

Now, this is my point:  My husband was raised in the environment with a BPD father.  It was traumatic (I can remember times in our marriage when he has had a dream and he has wakened sobbing.  He remembers fantasies as a child of taking his father's gun and killing him).

But my husband is not BPD.  He was determined to raise his children in the opposite kind of environment in which he was raised - and he has remarkably done so.  He never laid a hand on any of our children.  He was always loving and probably more sane and reasonable in his approach than I am.

So this is my conclusion:  The genetics and biology play a larger role than environment, at least with my husband and daughter.  Why would my daughter turn out as she has when her environment was so nurturing?  Why would my husband turn out to be so nurturing when his environment was hell?

Barb

[been there]

   I kinda feel like it depends on the person, where nature and nurture can both be a part, with nurture bringing about what was already there.

   Mark

[Diamond]

This is so fascinating to me because our family is so riddled on both sides with different kinds of mental issues.  I must say that having identical twins makes for a twist on the nature/nurture thing.  My girls were raised with the exact same environment.  Only one of them, even having identical DNA, has had the major problems brought on by BPD.  So what about the nurture?  I think if anything, the demands placed on us by the BPD daughter required more attention to her. Not sure what that means?  Your stories are interesting just to learn of your different background.  I am hoping to broaden my perspective, as I always do when reading all your posts.  Thanks.  Diamond

[mllepuma]

Hi Diamond

This makes for such an interesting thread!  This discussion has taken place before, here, and there were some awesome thoughts shared.

The women on my side of the family have had some major problems with anxiety throughout their lives.  How they found docs that would write scripts for Xanax for years after years is beyond me.  One sister is also alcoholic and has finally won her case for SSI.  The other sister has a diagnosis of BPD.  Twice, she has had to be hospitalized.

On my son's side of the family, there is no diagnosed cases of mental illness that I know of, but I was a family member for only three years.  I strongly suspect that my son's father has some sort of undiagnosed mental illness.  In reading the criteria for a diagnosis of BPD, it sure does look like quite a few fit the picture.  But, then again, so does sociopathic personality disorder.  I know a lot of my son's behavior was so much like his father's that it was almost uncanny, particularly considering he had not seen his father since the age of three.  Nature or nurture?

There are environmental factors, too, that came into play.  One of the critical issues for a bp is a fear of being abandoned.  The last words my son ever heard his father say is, "Here, take him.  I'll see him when he's eighteen."  He has not tried in any way, shape or form to try to contact his son  He has never paid a dime of child support.  hit_!  Then, when my son turned fifteen, he lost his best friend in an ATV accident.  My boy took it bad, real bad!  Two other boys that were friends with this kid are also not doing very well, three years later.  Nature or nurture?

There is one thing I also think is very interesting is that most of the people that post here tell of how bright and talented their children are.  Doesn't it make you wonder if these bright kids are more "sensitive" to what is going on around them?  That they "read" more into a situation than what really happened?  Nature or nurture?

It's all very interesting!

Puma

[Diamond]

Puma,  You brought up some interesting thoughts.  My daughter, too, is very sensitive and very bright.  Many times it seemed that she "brought on" her episodes of rejection due to this trait in her personality.  She also lost a close friend and used a credit card to fly herself and current boyfriend to Utah to his funeral. At the time, it put her in such a bind, but looking back I can see why she took it so hard. He was a friend that always encouraged her and she doesn't have many like that. 

     I also think growing up, her sensitivity opened the doors to bullying.  Once kids know they can upset you, they often have no mercy. 

So, with her nature, she attracted the very thing she feared.  Rejection is the "key" to the nurture part that preciptates the combination of both becoming a nightmare for BPD.

     Before I understood about BPD, my daughter often seemed to push me to the point of rejecting her... .it was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy?  I am learning so much from you and Barb about reactions and I must say it has helped my relationship with my daughter so much.  I want to help others as it took me so long to discover this disorder and I think what I could have spared myself and my daughter over the years.  Thanks for sharing all your thoughts.  Diamond

[mllepuma]

Hi Diamond,

My kid used to push me real hard, too.  Some of the hateful things that he has said to me were almost a copycat of the things his father used to say to me when I was his wife.  I don't know where son ever got the idea that he could talk to me in the same manner, because he was only three the last time he saw his father and I can't believe he learned it from him.  You want to talk about deja vu all over again!  Yikes!

I have had the same guy in my life for going on fifteen years now and in the years that we lived together, my son couldn't have learned that kind of bad behavior from my guy because "we" didn't cross those kinds of lines with each other.

I was definitely afraid of his father and his violent nature and I became afraid of my son's as well.

I thank my heavenly Father that my son has moved in a forward direction in his attempt to learn ways to live with what he has.

There are other Mom's like you, Diamond, that were raising bp teenagers in a time where not much was known about the disorder and how to treat it.  You and the others like yourself have had so many, many years of having to deal with all the chaos that goes with this disorder and my heart goes out to you.

I'm starting to ramble... .sorry :-\

Puma

[Diamond]

Yes, Puma, it has been a long time, but I am not complaining as I have found kindred spirits here.  My husband is the nicest, low key man, so my daughter did not learn her misbehavior from him.  Although, maybe she felt more empowered to be rude and disrespectful knowing her dad wouldn't come down hard on her.  We have had the consistency she needed, been in the same house for 32 years and married for 38!  That is why so much of her personality seems to be nature and the genetic combination that has been passed down from both families with our personal quirks added in the mix.  I guess I don't want to give in to all nature because I won't give up hope for her to change.  That is where validation has come in to help.  I can see a real change in my daughter since using this technique.  I really don't agree with everything she says, but I keep reassuring.  You guys have given me so much help on this... .you are great!  Diamond

[Tim300]

I think BPD is genetic.  Full stop.  I also believe that environmental experiences have an impact (albeit relatively minor in comparison to the genes). 

I'm aware that many pwBPD report having difficult childhoods and even abuse.  I suspect that such reported abuse is mostly the result of (1) being abused by or influenced by a parent who has BPD genes; and (2) reports of abuse that are exaggerated or even made up in some cases, as seems to be consistent with tales told by pwBPD.  So, the correlation of BPD with reported child abuse might be mostly an issue of correlation (due to genetic lineage) and not causation.  I do not at all mean to downplay the impact of child abuse on one's life.  It just seems like there are many cases of people with BPD who were not abused (e.g., an adult pwBPD who was adopted by a healthy family as an infant) as well as cases of people who were abused as children but didn't develop BPD.  Certainly if a pwBPD has had harsh life experiences it seems like some BPD traits would be reinforced.  However, some BPD traits don't strike me has having a clear connection to having experienced abuse (seems like innate brain differences must be the issue).  Lastly, I am slightly suspect of the strong weight some people put on the experiences of young infants in long-term personality development.

I think most people with BPD (and probably some optimistic mental health professionals) would prefer to believe that BPD is caused by bad childhoods, even though it's not true.  For these people, the child abuse explanation makes the pwBPD seem like a victim who might be able to be cured.  Also, the child abuse explanation is likely a more attractive explanation to provide to friends and lovers.  The genetic explanation is likely more difficult for a pwBPD to admit and for lovers to accept without running off.     

   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Middleagemom]

I have to agree with the nature part playing the principal role with this disorder.  Certainly environmental factors can contribute (quite significantly, in some cases) but it's interesting to see that - even in extended families - the behaviours that can flare up, even when kids are brought up in a healthy household. 

[enlighten me]

I also believe that nature is the predominant factor with BPD but also feel that nuture can produce BPD. There is plenty of evidence showing that people who have BPD where raised in loving enviroments and they suffered no early trauma thus pointing to nature as the cause. I also believe that someone in a toxic enviroment where they suffer trauma can develop it with being genetically predisposed. There is a lot of evidence showing the brain can re route pathway and physically change due to how it is used. If a person is in a toxic enviroment then long term use of BPD survival mechanisms could rewrite the brain.

[Rapt Reader]

I can see how BPD can be inherited, and also how it can be taught and therefore not be so much genetic, but learned behavior. And also how it could be a mixture of the two... .My most likely undiagnosed BPD Maternal Grandmother raised my Mom in such a way that she treated her 6 children in ways that reflected my Grandmother's own parenting style.

Mom wouldn't be diagnosed BPD at all, but she did behave in ways that drove me crazy: Got angry over something that we couldn't have predicted or figured out, and then gave us the silent treatment until she felt we'd been "punished" enough (though I highly doubt she would have seen it that way; she probably thought that she had every right to feel the way she did, and every right to detach from us until she felt better).

I've seen the same thing in my Husband's family: His Mom (my M-I-L) is definitely full-blown undiagnosed BPD. My Husband has BPD traits as the result of being brought up by this difficult woman. And you guessed it: His traits mimic my own Mom's, and drove me crazy for 39 years of marriage--until I found this site and learned what I've learned about BPD and how to deal with it.

Adding to the nature/nurture question, my adult (37) son was diagnosed with BPD in April 2013 (the reason I was led to this site). Son of his Dad, grandson of both Grandmothers, great-grandchild of Maternal Grandmother. And so the world turns... .

[lever.]

From my experience I think that there is a large genetic component but that the genetic predisposition can be triggered by environmental influences-this could be anything from failure at school, problems with friends, family relationships.

For our purposes of trying to improve things we can only really effect things in the environment and learned behaviour. The genetic element is beyond our influence-although I do think that it is the strongest factor.

[enlighten me]

I think that the possibility of treatment is a reality.

Pwptsd can be genetically predisposed. This has been proven in a number of studies. One showed the hippocampus to be smaller in the majority of cases. This means that they have lower levels of cortisol. When involved in a traumatic event cortisol is released. One thing it does is lessen the memory of the event making it less traumatic to think about. There have been trials in america where after a traumatic event such as a rape cortisol has been administered. When done shortly after the trauma the effect is to prevent ptsd from developing.

If we look at BPD then research shows a reduced hyperthalamus. This would probably mean that oxytocin levels are reduced. By administering oxytocin it encourages production. Apparently administered oxytocin doesnt cross the brain membrane but levels increase meaning that the person produces more of their own. If this hypothesis bears water then surely by taking oxytocin a pwBPD could reduces their symptoms. I dont know if by stimulating the hyperthalamus it could encouraged to grow. If so then a pwBPD would be more compassionate, feel less untrusting and form stronger bonds to their partners.

[Rapt Reader]

I think that the possibility of treatment is a reality.

If we look at BPD then research shows a reduced hyperthalamus. This would probably mean that oxytocin levels are reduced.

You are right, enlighten me... .My son's Neurofeedback Therapist agrees with you.

I had Pitocin (synthetic Oxytocin, experimental at that time) given to me erroneously during my labor with him (I'd been in labor for 40 hours, with contractions that weren't proceeding uniformly), and I got a high dosage of Pitocin for 5-6 hours to hasten it. My son at a very young age showed signs of ADD (but there was no diagnosis for that in 1977-1978), and that undiagnosed problem caused him all sorts of trauma on the school bus, in every grade in school with teachers and students, and he probably slid into BPD after puberty (when he also apparently developed the Graves Disease, or Hyperactive Thyroid, that went undiagnosed till age 20+, almost 21).

One of the things his Neurofeedback Therapist has been working on are his Oxytocin Receptors to help restore them from the disrepair she believes the labor trauma caused him. She believes that the inherited leanings toward his ADD (his Dad has it, too) were exacerbated by the Pitocin, and then the circumstances of his life helped him to develop the BPD, which he also had inherited leanings toward. She is doing a great job, and that Therapy (plus his others: Out-Patient and Psychiatric) has actually put him into recovery, and he is now doing really well.

[qcarolr]

My first response to this thread is remembering the report from DD28's neuropsych testing when she was 23. The psychologist concluded that her moderate to severe non-verbal learning disability (right brain disorder) set her up for endless rejection and perceived failure. All the dx's starting at age 3 when referred to OT by her preschool can be traced back to the impact of the NLD. This was also the conclusion of an evaluation at age 17 by a psychiatrist that worked on the team with her T and had access to 10 years of Dd's psych records. This pdoc handed us a copy of info on NLD (non-verbal LD) and said this is what led to her psych symptoms and all the failed psych treatments.

DD has a long list of things that work in an out-of-balance way. OT/PT issues, ADHD, Bipolar, Panic/Anxiety disorder, PTSD, ODD. She also has serious attachment issues, that I was in complete denial about and took as a failure on my part back when she was inpatient at age 6 for violent behaviors. The hospital social worker was suggesting we sign her over to the state as she was not attached to us as adoptive parents (DD in foster home from day 1-21, then in our home). This is an expanding area of research that weaves neurology and psychology and education and families all together with attachment as the beginning point.

Now DD is so entrenched in her survival strategies beginning with being an unwanted child placed for adoption before birth (my belief) that she resists any kind of treatment as unsafe. She has experienced failed treatments her whole life. I do not know how to have any impact on this. It seems that none of the professionals have much impact either. From this perspective the various labels seem to make no difference in her outcome.

It has been a hard couple of weeks for her. I am feeling discouraged and sad. DD is who she is and will do what she does. I am grateful she accepts my love and shows appreciation for the things I do for her when asked. I am grateful for my progress with my own issues so I can continue to love her and stay connected.

qcr

[Dibdob59]

Qcr

I can hear your sadness and discouragement and am sending you love and strength from the UK. I always look for your posts as they are inspirational.

I can understand how you may feel discouraged at the recent turn of events with your DD  - so much hope and so little control over the outcomes.

It is my observation from these boards that our BPD children suffer from a wide spectrum of the disorder that affects them in a variety of ways, some less life shattering than others.

Your DD is clearly one who struggles greatly.  I am guessing your frustration and sadness for her and your GD lies in part with the fact that she seems to make choices that are not in her best interests, although it may not seem that way to her. However for our BPDs it is all about coping with the pain they are feeling in that moment, then the next moment, then the next ... .and so on.

The dynamics change constantly and I am sorry to say this is out of our control.

It is what it is. It is not what we would have it be.

Dibdob

[qcarolr]

Dibdob59

Thanks so much for your understanding and care. I think maybe I will do a new post and not hijack this one.

qcr

[Kate4queen]

I have four kids. We have a bit of narcissistic personality disorder on my side (my mum) and in retrospect I think my FIL had a lot of BPD traits.

My second son who was brought up in the most positive loving environment we could give him tells everyone what monsters we are and how we ruined his life.

I think he just got a whole load of bad genes and then his particular life circumstances exacerbated those starters and gave him full blown BPD and Narcism.

The other three have all been affected by this and have a variety of issues on the ASD scale, but not to the same extent as their brother.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mggt]

My opinion is it is def brain based we did adopt of dd and gave her the most loving enviorment possible.  We found out later that

the bm and birthsister did have some mental/emotional disorder not quite sure what exactly .  I think the BPD are born this way

and Im sure a bad childhood upbringing could make the bps worse but as far as did we the parents cause it absolutely not , I get

very aggravated when i hear oh the parents were bad parents never gave them love did not understand them and on and on .  I t

think the drs and the researchers really need to dig deeper into the brain part of BPD instead of blaming the parents so sick of

hearing ITS THE PARENTS FAULT.   FROM MGGT JUST A PARENT THAT HAS DONE AND TRIED EVERYTHING TO HELP OUR DD AND

WOULD CUT HER ARMS OFF IF I THOUGHT IT WOULD HELP HER SO DRS RESEARCHES GIVE US A BREAK US PARENTS

[lever.]

This is so interesting to read. My daughter suffered lack of oxygen at birth and until I read this I thought she had fortunately not been affected by it.

Also she is much better when she is breastfeeding her babies-less likely to completely disregulate emotionally. I am wondering now if oxytocin levels are having an effect.

There is so much to be learned about this disorder.

I had been concerned that she would be very vulnerable to post-natal depression-but the opposite is true for her.

It seems that there is potential to do a lot more with the brain-based issues than I thought.

I am sure research will reveal more. It isn't long since mothers were blamed for autism and schizophrenia-which has now been dis-proven.

[enlighten me]

This is so interesting to read. My daughter suffered lack of oxygen at birth and until I read this I thought she had fortunately not been affected by it.

Also she is much better when she is breastfeeding her babies-less likely to completely disregulate emotionally. I am wondering now if oxytocin levels are having an effect.

There is so much to be learned about this disorder.

I had been concerned that she would be very vulnerable to post-natal depression-but the opposite is true for her.

It seems that there is potential to do a lot more with the brain-based issues than I thought.

I am sure research will reveal more. It isn't long since mothers were blamed for autism and schizophrenia-which has now been dis-proven.

Oxytocin is relesed during labour, breastfeeding and orgasm. This fact has been a major influence in my belief that pwBPD are lacking normal levels of oxytocin. Both my exs where highly sexed and it at times felt more like treatment for them than love making.

It does make me wonder how a pwBPD would respond to nasal oxytocin as an addition to pscological treatment. One to counter the possible deficiency and the other to unlearn their behaviour and cope with their actions. It could be the equivalent of a nicotine patch for someone giving up smoking. The patch alone wont work but reduces the cravings.

[SlyQQ]

My Sd Bpd is a blue print of her mum terrible childhood has perhaps made her BPD worse than her Mum though

[SlyQQ]

Levels of oxytocin in people with BPD is lower than normal Oxytocin magnifies reactions both positive an negative scince people with BPD have low levels fluctuations may have more pronounced effects( good and bad ) there are also strong links between oxytocin and vassopressin ( partial agonist ) whichis linked with stress and also angry face recognition ( another well known area where BPDs are different Oxytocin most promising effects so far have been show in the autistic spectrum in my exs family there was also some aspergers autism i have often wondered if there was a link if you are looking for something that probably wont hurt along these lines chaste berry or Vitex ( herbal remedy 1000 years old also registered drug in germany ) is interesting? ( it is also suppose to help with breast feeding )