Wishing for a Marriage Ref

[Depression = 72% of members]

Thinking out loud:

Have you ever wished you could have cameras follow you and your family for weeks or months, then be reviewed by a panel of people including a therapist or two and an average Joe or Jane? Wouldn't it be great if your SO agreed to something like that, and actually abided by the decision of the panel? I guess I see it as something like what happens on the Dr. Phil show but without having to be on national TV.

With all the projecting, false accusations, revising (or making up) "facts"... . wouldn't it just be great to have an indisputable record that could be reviewed at any time, and a "call" on the whole situation being made by impartial viewers? And when he/she doesn't like the outcome, get a new panel, and see what they say. I'd say, hey, Honey, pick anyone you want. There is no way that anyone seeing the whole truth first hand could possibly validate the "version" of life the BPD tries to paint.

Would it crush your SO's world? Perhaps. But just maybe, after enough people keep arriving at virtually the same conclusion (based on actually seeing it and not from second hand stories related by me or her), ... . maybe, maybe, maybe... . after the fire and brimstone rain down insider her head, maybe she seeks help. Maybe she returns to counseling. Maybe she starts living by rules of decent behavior.

Maybe not... . but, I'd certainly be willing to try it out. How about you?

[Edelweiss]

Thinking out loud:

Have you ever wished you could have cameras follow you and your family for weeks or months, then be reviewed by a panel of people including a therapist or two and an average Joe or Jane? Wouldn't it be great if your SO agreed to something like that, and actually abided by the decision of the panel? I guess I see it as something like what happens on the Dr. Phil show but without having to be on national TV.

With all the projecting, false accusations, revising (or making up) "facts"... . wouldn't it just be great to have an indisputable record that could be reviewed at any time, and a "call" on the whole situation being made by impartial viewers? And when he/she doesn't like the outcome, get a new panel, and see what they say. I'd say, hey, Honey, pick anyone you want. There is no way that anyone seeing the whole truth first hand could possibly validate the "version" of life the BPD tries to paint.

Would it crush your SO's world? Perhaps. But just maybe, after enough people keep arriving at virtually the same conclusion (based on actually seeing it and not from second hand stories related by me or her), ... . maybe, maybe, maybe... . after the fire and brimstone rain down insider her head, maybe she seeks help. Maybe she returns to counseling. Maybe she starts living by rules of decent behavior.

Maybe not... . but, I'd certainly be willing to try it out. How about you?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

No, as it wouldn't achieve anything. A pwBPD would not abide by anyone else's opinion. Thats the core problem with BPD. No one else's opinion carries any weight, if it is counter to their own impulses.

But I am sure we have all gone through that wish to "expose" this behavior, so the desire is understandable. All attempts to expose them ultimately backfires, as that victimizes them and paints you as the persecutor.

What you are really seeking is outside validation that they are wrong and you are right. To learn to deal with this effectively we have to build ourselves up so that we dont rely on outside validation. The more you try the more you will be told you are nuts for staying, which ultimately invalidates you making you question why you are staying, and even more frustrated that "outsiders" dont understand why you do. In effect you wont stick to an outsiders advice either... .

[Chosen]

2nd everything waverider said.  I used to think that if only *somebody* would see H's behaviour, and confront him.  Then maybe he would know what's wrong with him.  No... . it would only confirm my own belief that I'm not crazy.  It would probably doubly validate H's notion that nobody understands and loves him too. 

One thing I've learned here at BPD Family is that even when we're with an undiagnosed pwBPD, there is much we can do to improve the relationship.  We don't have to sit there waiting for them to be diagnosed so that somebody else could so something... . we can take our power back, even when it's just 50% of the relationship.

Have you read the Lessons on the right?  They're really helpful. 

[waverider]

The only people who can have any understanding or helpful insights about living with BPD are those that live with BPD. Professionals and therapists can give objective views based on the general behaviors, but only living with it will allow someone to actually realize just how difficult it is to implement what appear to be obvious changes.

You cannot explain it to anyone else. Often trying will only frustrate you even more. You often find even family members, inlaws etc, would prefer to avoid the issue.

[Edelweiss]

Not that my scenario is actually doable, but I do wonder what would happen if it were possible. I have had plenty of individual "validations". Everyone who has ever stayed any amount of time with us in our home or become close enough to us through friendship, etc. has begun to see the dynamic for what it is. Counselors, clergy, etc. who have been involved end up seeing it, and--though they carefully tread the troubled waters of helping while not upsetting her too much--she eventually begins to feel that they "are taking my side". That drives her nuts, of course. It is the reason she has sworn off counseling (individual or couples) and seeking help from anyone.

So, I totally get that she can continue to convince herself that I just "pull the wool over everyone's eyes", that I "keep my calm when around them" and she can't, and that anyone could be deceived by my word vs her word. But, really, what about the scenario I suggested--if it were possible? She picks the panel from among friends she has confided in and do not know my side of the story. They actually see it all for themselves.

I don't know... . it just seems like something would have to give. What happens on the Dr. Phil show? Seems like some episodes I have seen with people that seem a lot like BPD seem to kind of work out in the end (after the BPD-like person gets totally crushed, of course).

Again... . all thinking out loud. Not really needing much at this moment (for myself anyway). I can really cope fairly well... . though it's often a pain. It's the kids I worry about the most. I can do it. I don't know if they can.

[daylily]

I used to wish for this all the time, or wish I could record my conversations with my uBPDh and replay them for him later to prove that I'm "right."  But as others have said, it wouldn't make a difference.  And it doesn't matter if everyone else thinks you're right either.  I have said to my H before that most of the population would side with me on an issue and he said, flat out, "it doesn't matter what everyone else would do or say, it matters how I feel."  So so true.  That is his reality.

When I knew I was making progress with my self improvement was when it started not mattering to me whether or not H thinks I'm "right" or anyone else thinks I'm "right."  I feel more self-assured now, and less dependent on the opinions of others.  The pendulum hae been swinging too far the other way for awhile - I have been angry at my H and I've been blaming him for everything.  Now I feel like I'm coming back to the center with a healthier outlook. 

  Daylily

[waverider]

Not that my scenario is actually doable, but I do wonder what would happen if it were possible. I have had plenty of individual "validations". Everyone who has ever stayed any amount of time with us in our home or become close enough to us through friendship, etc. has begun to see the dynamic for what it is. Counselors, clergy, etc. who have been involved end up seeing it, and--though they carefully tread the troubled waters of helping while not upsetting her too much--she eventually begins to feel that they "are taking my side". That drives her nuts, of course. It is the reason she has sworn off counseling (individual or couples) and seeking help from anyone.

So, I totally get that she can continue to convince herself that I just "pull the wool over everyone's eyes", that I "keep my calm when around them" and she can't, and that anyone could be deceived by my word vs her word. But, really, what about the scenario I suggested--if it were possible? She picks the panel from among friends she has confided in and do not know my side of the story. They actually see it all for themselves.

I don't know... . it just seems like something would have to give. What happens on the Dr. Phil show? Seems like some episodes I have seen with people that seem a lot like BPD seem to kind of work out in the end (after the BPD-like person gets totally crushed, of course).

Again... . all thinking out loud. Not really needing much at this moment (for myself anyway). I can really cope fairly well... . though it's often a pain. It's the kids I worry about the most. I can do it. I don't know if they can.

Problem is you are still trying to cajoule an illogical mind to conform by using logic. What we call here trying to teach a duck to bark.

Even when a pwBPD sees there is a problem with their behavior, they still can't stop it. This is why they retreat into denial, or the hopelessness can, and does kill them. It is also that complete inability to regulate themselves in a consistent way that causes the barrier to effective treatment, even if they are willing.

My partner owns the disorder, but when she first came to accept it, and realize there is no magic quick fix, that led to endless cycles of overdoses out of hopelessness. That is now past but her ability to regulate and organize her life means that any kind of therapy is flunked after a few visits.  She almost need therapy in order to learn how to be responsible enough to attend therapy.

You are attempting to convince someone who has based their entire life on denial and blaming that everything that has stuffed up in their life is down to them and there is no quick fix

Any sort of management and potential "cure" is a slow evolution.

[Chosen]

I guess sometimes we are stuck in a "if only... . " mindset.  We think that if only _____ happened, then the pwBPD would know the extend that they have hurt us. 

But actually, it is the deep-rooted issue that pwBPDs have in their minds that causes them to blame others, to get out of responsibility.  They really do not think they are wrong.  It's different from a little child who tells an angry parent "the other child did it", because a pwBPD's mind is not wired in that way.  It's sad but true.  Some of them may have a "lightbulb moment", but it has to come from themselves. 

[Grey Kitty]

Edelweiss, it is completely normal to WANT this sort of thing, want somebody to dope-slap your SO and prove to them the crap they are pulling.

But your wanting it doesn't change how little good will come of it. As many have noticed, proving that you were right and they were wrong doesn't make many things better.

 GK

[Edelweiss]

Thank you all. That's really the point. I've read and reread all the main books and articles on BPD for years. I have worked on SET and this and that and the other. I am pretty decent at doing what can be done from my end. It still gets tiring, especially when I am trying to protect kids and/or help them through episode after episode. Myself is one thing. I can expect a lot from myself. A kid? A teenager? They do pretty well, but as much as I try, right now they simply can't be as solid, secure, and emotionally immovable as I am.

Anyway, the reason I especially appreciate your words is because I have noticed the benefits of written records, too (when presented early enough, before complete dysregulation). Of course, written records are limited, by definition, to what get's communicated through writing. Because the stuff that isn't, is completely open to be either forgotten entirely or horribly misremembered (i.e. twisted).

As an illustrative example:

About three years ago, my BPDw raged a lot, particularly late at night after the kids were in bed. One of our daughters sometimes would start out sleeping in our bed because her younger sister, with whom she shared a room, would keep her up and make it difficult to go to sleep. So, we'd start them out in separate rooms on those occasions, then I would carry the older one back to her bed once my wife was ready to go to bed.

This was the case on one particular night. BPDw was raging at me in the living room. I was calm, didn't say much at all... . tried to SET, etc. but it was bad enough and getting late enough (probably 1AM, and I had work in the morning), that I finally simply asked her to please go to bed and we could resume the discussion the next day--perhaps with our T. She refused. I listened for a bit longer, but she was only getting herself worked up more. So, I repeated my plea.

She finally said, "Fine, I'll go to bed," and stormed off to her room. I had remained calm in speech and body language the entire time. It was then that I realized I would need to move our daughter back into her room, as I always did (even after similar episodes with BPDw). So, I walked into the bedroom, and BPDw immediately raised her fist and told me to leave. I very calmly explained that I was just coming in to take our daughter to her bed, not to continue the discussion. She wouldn't hear it. She had been in a hitting mode for many months and it was a boundary I was trying to draw the line on. I neither moved in nor moved back (I was at a normal distance), I simply asked her to please put down her fist. She would not and proceeded to hit me several times on my shoulder as hard as she could.

After a few moments, she realized she had hurt herself, and she went into the bathroom. I took our daughter to her bed and slept in the living room. BPDw nursed her injury the next few days, eventually had it looked at by a doctor and found out she had popped a tendon. It hurt her for quite a while and still flares up from time to time.

About a year and a half ago, she brought up that incident during a time of particular dysregulation, and said that I had been yelling at her during the earlier conversation and that when I went into the bedroom, I pushed myself into her "personal space" and was being physically intimidating toward her during the exchange the led to her hitting me. Basically, a lot of twisting of the story to make her feel justified in hitting me and making it my fault that she hurt herself.

I understand the projection that occurs in those "fights" (one-sided) and how that messes with her perceptions of my actual emotional state. But I was utterly flabbergasted the first time she related the story to me like that. That wasn't the first time she had talked about it with me, but it was the first time that she described it so completely differently than what had actually happened. I was absolutely blown away.

Anyway, that episode wasn't a written dialogue between us. Of course, I wrote about it in my journal that night or the next day, but those are just my words. It would be nice to have it objectively recorded, though. Because, I think for the first year or so, she did have a better realization of what led to her injury, and it wasn't me. But, with enough time and stewing bitterness of many things, her version of that night has become completely warped. I can't disagree that I think a simple viewing of that night--if she was not totally dysregulated, at the time--would likely have the effect of keeping her a little more grounded in reality. Would it cure her? No. But I think it might minimize some things that she now does because she feels so hurt by things that are twisted or completely made up in her mind that I didn't do.

To sum it up, there are a lot of behaviors that I believe she feels justified in or at least "pushed" into because of these warped perceptions she has of me and of others.

But... . deep down... . I think she really does know the truth. She knows I am a good man. That's where the "don't leave me" comes in. That's why there is a "don't leave me". At some level, she knows.

[Grey Kitty]

A couple thoughts about this story, having been through things too similar to it:

1. For me, writing in a journal about a fight or incident right after it happened is often helpful because I can go back and read how I described it, and know that it was accurate, even if I'm being fed something different. (Proving it isn't relevant or helpful, but just knowing that I am sane is very helpful for me!)

2. Getting out of a fully dysregulated situation is the safest thing to do.