Question for those with grown children

[isharcanis]

What is the status of the relationship with each parent?

[livednlearned]

I'm not sure what you're asking... .

Low contact, no contact when one parent has BPD?

[isharcanis]

Yes. What is the relationship between the kid(s) and the BPD parent and the non-BPD parent?

[david]

I have stepsons, xws' from her first marriage, and two from our marriage. Two ss'a have substance abuse issues and don't talk to me or their siblings. They do see their mom from time to time. I don't know much more then that. The other ss's are NC and LC. They are both married and doing well. Our two boys are 19 and 15. The oldest is LC with his mom and lives with me. Our youngest is 50/50 with mom and I. He is going through normal teenage stuff.

[Panda39]

My SO's daughters live with him full-time, they voted with their feet in 2015 (in spite of a legal custody agreement). Mom did not challenge it... .she had done some horrific things, the reason the girls stopped seeing her, that mom would not have wanted aired in court.

D22 is no contact with her mother.
D17 is low contact phone/texts occasional coffee/lunch in a public place where mom is better behaved.

A condensed version of my SO's story is at the end of sladezy's thread... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326673.0

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

My son is still a minor and in high school.  Even when I was only an alternate weekend dad in temp orders (late 2005 to early 2008) he was daddy's boy, he would come running and jump into my arms at exchanges.  Returning him was quit different, he would delay and in the early years he would struggle even to the point of tears to stay with me.  In 2011 I became Legal Guardian and in 2013 after two full days in court the decision granted me majority time during the school year.  He spends more than his ordered time in my home since his mother works most days and he's usually dropped off at my home while she's working.

Several times my ex has stated she hates me.  Still.  Enough said about that.  We have settled into a separate or parallel parenting mode.  He is older so there is less verbal interaction (and less Blaming).

This year has been a bit tough on him.  Twice he was "disowned" and she tried to get me to join her in her grounding him.  The disowning only lasted a couple days each, but they shocked him.  The third time she was upset I took him to get his driving permit.  I signed him up for driving instruction at the school (the school year had ended but I loved it was situated at the school) but she insisted he wasn't ready.  She even pressured him to call me and say he wasn't ready.  The morning of the first class he called me to come get him, he was torn up, she had confiscated his phone (on her plan).  He was so sure it was Gone that he even deleted his apps off the phone.  By the time I picked him up after the class, he had his phone back.  I suspect she talked with someone about him learning to drive and was told ow wonderful that was.  (She doesn't listen to me, I trigger her that much, the past emotional baggage in her perceptions and selective memory is too vast for her to overcome.)

I am sure son is impacted by her years of unrelenting conflict, he has yet to really stand up to her wide-ranging moods and declarations, but he is definitely more comfortable in my environment.

A note about david's post.  He has, as I recall, four stepsons.  As for the two younger ones, now adults, he had a good relationship with them while they were young and they have a better relationship with him now than with their mother.

[isharcanis]

I'm seeing a lot of kids distancing themselves from their BPD parent and going to the other one. That's not at all what we have and it worries DH.

From the beginning, his ex told the girls lies about him (he was cheating). One of his triggers is being trapped in a car with conflict. She used to spend the entire trip telling the girls how terrible he was. It was them against him. I don't know at what point he developed the PTSD but he had some behaviors that were seriously scary to the girls. The arguing was non-stop. He yelled a lot - a lot. Mom did too but men are scarier. They even describe this voice that sounded like another person, like he was possessed. He got really good at patching holes in the wall from his throwing things. Eventually, he retreated. He was able to travel almost weekly for his job and he would go to his parents house when things were really bad. When he was at hold, he would hide in the bedroom. By the time the divorce happened, their father was a scary stranger. Memories of him being the only one who gave them baths and put them to bed were in the distant past.

Mom is cruel but dad is scary.

He got his own apartment in October and I met them in February. In between, he was, as D14 describes it, "awkward dad." They'd been separated so long that he was more of a scary stranger. They didn't want to be here and if there was any conflict, they felt afraid. I started giving him parenting tips so those problems stopped before they met me. 

The girls and I bonded quickly. Soon they were telling me things they'd never told anyone. They would even tell me things they needed to tell DH and I'd give them the ok/courage to tell him. Even 6 months later, this still happens some. I've also explained their dad's PTSD, especially after he had a flashback with them in the car a few weeks ago.

So, I've provided the parenting skills and confidence to dad and a safe space for the girls, building them a bridge for them to reconnect. D11 is loving toward him but D14 is more distant. They fight over mom's attention which goes to her BF and her computer. D14 gets more attention but that's because a) she takes the blame for everything since her dad left and b) she insists on it more. Last night, D11 cried, saying "I miss my mommy" even though she lives with her 5 days a week. When mom arrived to pick her up, she instantly went from laughing and watching videos to a nervous wreck.

DH is scared he will never recover his relationship with them. They've had visitation for only 8 months. With me serving as a bridge, I think they will come to see who loves them and who uses them. They are able to articulate that she doesn't care about them but are unable to disconnect from their need for her. They choose to live with her. He's haunted by this fear.

[Panda39]

isharcanis,

All I can say is you and your husband keep doing what you're doing, he's got some trust building to do with his daughters. 

I would say that for most of us here things changed gradually over time. Some of the change came from courts, some came from stable, consistent parenting, some came from the kids maturing and reaching for independence, and some change came because their mothers were abusive/neglectful/or just plain failed as parents.

Your step-daughters are approximately the same age as my SO's were when he separated from his wife in (2010),  D22 was then 14 and D17 was then 10.  They went from dad having every other weekend visitation with Parent Alienation and false allegations of abuse, to dad having majority custody once the divorce was final 2 years later (2012), to 3 years after that (2015) the girls chose to move in full time with dad (they were 18 & 14). 

Panda39

[david]

My SS's were in their 20's when the s*** hit the fan. They actually had a kind of intervention to tell me to divorce their mom.
Our two boys were around 4 and 7 when the s*** hit the fan. Ex used some serious alienation tactics against me. One time that is etched in my head, ex dropped them off at my place, they walked in and in unison said, "We hate you and never want to see you again. We want to live with mom." I told them I still loved them. I was furious inside but I saw nothing good coming out of me exploding on them or going out of the house and exploding on her.
Transitions , when I picked them up at her place, were difficult. They were bouncing off the walls and it took them about an hour to calm down.
Eventually all these things stopped. It took around three years before I started seeing a more permanent change.
Our youngest used to say I was evil and abusive. One time when he said that I stood up and stuck my arms out like Frankenstein. I chased him around the house and he loved it. That pretty much changed him calling me evil. After that he asked for the evil daddy monster to get him.
I agree that building trust is the most important thing for the kids so they can open up. If they feel safe things get better.
Staying consistent and them learning/realizing you are on their side is the key. My ex can't do that and her behavior as much as mine helped them see the differences and my relationship got much better.

[Harri]

You mention your husband has PTSD.  Is it being treated? 

As for the kids, healing is going to take time.  Your husband will definitely need to build trust with them, learn to validate his kids feelings, to manage his own triggers and not let them get in the way of his parenting. 

The behavior of the kids may not always make sense.  They are not just dealing with a mentally ill mother, but a father who also fed some of the fears with his own behavior.  On top of that, kids are wired to be drawn to their mothers...   It is biology and very hard to break that especially when the relationship is one of dysfunction.  Kids survive by loving their parent and taking the blame and responsibility for anything that may go wrong.  Abused kids will often cling to and be drawn to their abusive parent.  In cases like these, patience, validation and boundaries make a huge difference and can go a long way in opening a space for the kids to develop a new relationship with their father.  A big part of that is going to involve your husband getting treatment for his PTSD.  The kids may need counseling as well.  Is that possible? 

In the meantime, keep being the source of positive validation you have become for those two kids and for your husband. 

[ForeverDad]

I'm seeing a lot of kids distancing themselves from their BPD parent and going to the other one. That's not at all what we have and it worries DH.

... .he had some behaviors that were seriously scary to the girls. The arguing was non-stop. He yelled a lot - a lot. Mom did too but men are scarier. They even describe this voice that sounded like another person, like he was possessed... .

DH is scared he will never recover his relationship with them. They've had visitation for only 8 months. With me serving as a bridge, I think they will come to see who loves them and who uses them. They are able to articulate that she doesn't care about them but are unable to disconnect from their need for her. They choose to live with her. He's haunted by this fear.

Give it time.  Recovery toward normalcy, for dad and and for the girls as well, is a process, not an event.  Even with just 8 months there has been progress.  You've helped greatly to bridge the divide.  With more time they'll trust more.

I recently wrote about my own close relatives.  You can follow the link and read the full post.

... .For years I've been in frequent and close contact with my niece.  Yes, she had issues with her dad, that he had responded or got involved squabbling with their mother when they were still together and those were tough childhood memories for her but guess what?  For decades niece has not had a relationship with her mother, didn't even tell her mother when she had kids, but all these years was regularly visiting her father.

One time I accidentally met my niece's mother.  I recall my niece asking if I had mentioned she had kids, and then admonishing me to never tell her.  Of course, by now her mother knows, I presume.  My point is that her relationship with her dad only grew more over time.  Yes, he had his faults and triggers, as we all do, and he didn't know how to handle the conflict in his marriage but he was overall a genuinely mild person and in time they surely worked together to patch things up despite the history and traumas.  I believe that will be true with your husband's girls, they will more and more learn to trust him.  Yes, a rocky start but it will surely grow.  Their mother almost succeeded in alienating them from their dad but it's unraveling now.

This is not to ignore that some children have been indoctrinated and programmed to hate the alienated parent, that parent's relatives and more, but in most cases we've seen the parent-child bonds improved, given time.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  (They'll probably get married some day, wouldn't you like them to make healthy choices and not picking what they've known so far?)  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation (the earliest quote I could find) on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[isharcanis]

Thanks to all for your encouraging words. It has helped both of us.

You mention your husband has PTSD.  Is it being treated? 

He was diagnosed 2 weeks ago and is starting a 20-week therapy program tomorrow. Through our insurance, we can get therapy for $10 a visit. Unfortunately, it's illegal to do therapy with minors so we have to pay the full $25 for the kids.

We had an incident Tuesday night and he was triggered while helping D11. I came home and took over while he went out for about 50 minutes to put himself back together. With the exception of the severe flashback a month ago, he's been able to shield them from it. Plus, he's able to say "I know; I've been there." This is especially true for D14 who has taken over for him as the source of all the family's problems.

Give it time.  Recovery toward normalcy, for dad and and for the girls as well, is a process, not an event.  Even with just 8 months there has been progress.  You've helped greatly to bridge the divide.  With more time they'll trust more.

You're right that I need to be patient. I made so much progress in the beginning but now it's slowing down. I know that's just how it goes but I miss making huge strides.

He's happy they have someone to talk to and that they enjoy being here but he's a little hurt that I'm the one they talk to and want to spend time with. I know it will take time and I think they need to confront him about some things in the past. He always listens patiently, takes responsibility for his actions and apologizes.

[livednlearned]

I'm seeing a lot of kids distancing themselves from their BPD parent and going to the other one. That's not at all what we have and it worries DH.

Does he have thoughts about what needs to happen to repair those relationships?

What has he tried?

[isharcanis]

Does he have thoughts about what needs to happen to repair those relationships?

What has he tried?

Mostly he has just been there for them with my parent coaching. When they didn't want to visit, he didn't force them (hasn't happened since I came along).  Everything is reward based.

They have competitions out of town. We've been taking them rather than mom. They get to have calm, organized and supportive trips which they never had with mom. It's really confusing about when to compete and D11 has always relied on D14. Last time she decided she didn't want anyone's help. DH said "she'd better not miss one." I said "so what if she does? She'll learn a lesson from it. We just need to sit back and let her do her thing." She didn't miss a single one. I was so proud because she could never do this with her mom. Even though it's probably my parenting that gave her that confidence (that she could do it and that the world wouldn't end if she failed) she knew he would be supportive too.  Trips with dad are better than trips with mom.

I encourage them to have one-on-one time with him which they've always done without a problem. When they have talked about the past, he always apologizes in a very sincere way. IMO, they need to do some family therapy where they confront him about the past. They've told me things but they're not ready to tell him. We've both talked to them about why he behaved like he did. It’s an explanation, not an excuse. This was super important after the flashback they experienced. They also saw that an hour later I returned with him calm. If dad is mad/scary, there's someone who can fix it.

We model a healthy marriage and healthy parenting. Sometimes I tell them about little disagreements we have and how we handle it. "Dad likes to drive really close to the car in front of us. That makes me nervous so I told him nicely how I feel. Now he doesn't do it because he loves me and wants to make me happy." Their parents fought over money and we're pretty broke. They see us discussing what to do when we have to make hard decisions. It's always calm and respectful. This shows them that dad was like that with mom but not by himself or with me. After seeing us together for 3 months, they whole-heartedly endorsed our getting married. They were sure he would not turn into scary dad with me. 

Do you know of anything else we can do?