Third child

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

The optimal time to get pregnant will be in two to three weeks. If I don't leave or if I don't start trying/planning for a third child by then, things will get intense. They already are to be honest, but then there will be the added demand for sex also.

What strikes me is that I'm quite good at leaving situations without feeling guilty when I'm out of her reach, like hanging up the phone or leaving a conversation to go outside when she's angry. It feels good to distance myself. But permanently leaving is something else, it takes planning and taking action over a longer course of time. Will I ever feel ready for that or is it something I'll just have to get over with?

[15years]

The optimal time to get pregnant will be in two to three weeks. If I don't leave or if I don't start trying/planning for a third child by then, things will get intense. They already are to be honest, but then there will be the added demand for sex also.

What strikes me is that I'm quite good at leaving situations without feeling guilty when I'm out of her reach, like hanging up the phone or leaving a conversation to go outside when she's angry. It feels good to distance myself. But permanently leaving is something else, it takes planning and taking action over a longer course of time. Will I ever feel ready for that or is it something I'll just have to get over with?

[livednlearned]

What does "feel ready to leave" mean to you?

[Gerda]

I looked over your previous threads because I had a somewhat similar dilemma when it came to adding another child to my family after I figured out my husband probably has BPD. A little bit different though because we had to do IVF. We got two viable embryos, so transferred one right away and then froze the other. At the time I was so happy because I always wanted two kids, and better yet, we got one of each, a XX and XY embryo.

They recommended transferring the XX one first, because it was the "highest quality" embryo, and that became our daughter.

But soon after our daughter was born was when my husband's abusive behavior become so much worse and when the terrible realization started to come to me that I might have made a horrible mistake having kids with this person.

But I still had that other embryo. The plan was to transfer that one when our daughter was 2 or 3 years old, but by that point my husband's behavior become so abusive that I really doubted if that was the right thing to do.

But not transferring the embryo would mean that I was really admitting something was seriously wrong with the relationship. I would have to tell my husband I don't want to have a second kid after all, and I'd have to make arrangements with the fertility clinic to discard or donate the embryo.

And I did really always want two kids and thought it would be nice for my daughter to have a little brother and also didn't feel it was really fair for my husband to be taking that away from us because he refuses to learn to handle his mental illness.

So I went ahead and transferred the embryo, and then had a miscarriage about 6 weeks later. And ever since I've felt such a weird mixture of grief and relief.

My husband offered to do another IVF cycle to try to get more embryos, but I told him I didn't feel like going through that again because I'd probably just have another miscarriage and we'd waste thousands more dollars. Which was all true, but not the only reason I didn't want to do another cycle.

Anyway, to get to my point, before I did the transfer I had to think really, really hard about the worst case scenario and whether I would be OK with it: that I'd transfer the embryo, successfully have a second baby, and my husband would get even worse and even more abusive, and now I'd have two kids to have to deal with when divorcing him, plus one of those kids would be a little baby. I ended up telling myself I'd be OK with taking that risk, but the fact that I felt a bit of relief when I miscarried I think tells me something about what a big risk that was.

So for your situation, you've already got two kids, your wife is obviously mentally ill. It looks to me like you don't even really want a third kid, but your wife does, and you are afraid to tell her that you don't want the third kid because you know she'll react badly.

But think about what might happen if you go ahead and successfully have the third kid. It's very possible your wife will act even worse after that. It's really, really unlikely she'll act any better. And now you'll have two kids plus a little baby in the middle of all that. Would that be worth it? Would that be best for your kids? Would that outcome be worth avoiding a conflict with your wife now if you refuse to have another kid?

I understand that this is making you feel pressured to make a decision about your relationship faster than you feel comfortable with, but sometimes these things are also opportunities to give us some more clarity about the situation. In my case, right after the miscarriage I decided it was time to do marriage counseling, and if that didn't work out, then divorce. And that's exactly what happened, we did marriage counseling, it didn't help, so now I've decided for sure I'm getting a divorce.

And it's probably good that I only have one kid to deal with now instead of two, and if I had a little baby right now it would probably have just delayed the inevitable.

[Cat Familiar]

Do you want a third child? Do you want to be married to her 5 years from now? Ten years? Twenty?

[ForeverDad]

Right now I believe your children are both in elementary school. That's not a bad age for a divorce to occur so that your kids would have at least part of their lives in a calm and stable home with you.

Looks like this is decision time.  Right now you have a dozen years of co-parenting ahead of you.  If you dither then you've an extra 5-7 years on top of that ahead of you.

About 12 years... or 19 years (a year for pregnancy and 18 more until the youngest is an adult).

Your choice.  By the way, inaction counts as a choice too.

Many of us were where you are now.  It was tough for us but when decision time came, we decided.  (And sometimes it was decided for us.)  We feel for you.  Clearly your spouse has shown no indication she will improve.  You've had over two years here to prepare.  The ball's in your court.

[Notwendy]

It's not about the child, it's the relationship you are concerned about. This is one more situation where there's a demand you don't agree with.

Gerda said it well:  this is making you feel pressured to make a decision about your relationship faster than you feel comfortable with, but sometimes these things are also opportunities to give us some more clarity about the situation.

[15years]

Thank you all for sharing your stories and perspectives. I'll answer this question first.

What does "feel ready to leave" mean to you?

I think that feeling ready is both realistic and unrealistic at the same time. My recent thoughts about this is that maybe I will never reach a point when I feel ready all the time, but maybe part of the time. And during that time I do it, and when I feel conflicting emotions, I just wait it out and work out practical things? Is that realistic?

I feel that as soon as I'd be out of her space, I would probably free up some energy. That's what I feel when I'm at work - capable. When I'm with her - conflicted.

I almost feel that even if leaving would be a mistake, I'd be fine with that.


Despite all this, I'm not sure I will be able to do it. I don't know exactly where the hesitation comes from or why it is so strong.

[livednlearned]

Has she been violent or physically abusive with you recently?

I'm not sure I will be able to do it. I don't know exactly where the hesitation comes from or why it is so strong.

There might be a clue to this in the pattern following her physical abuse of you.

When you were keeping count of the number of domestic violence incidents and sharing them here I believe you were trying to figure out if there was a pattern, and if things were getting better.

Versus identifying a value: "no one will physically harm me."

Do you see the difference?

You seemed to find the violence unwanted versus unacceptable.

[Pook075]

Do you want a third child? Do you want to be married to her 5 years from now? Ten years? Twenty?

THIS!  Forget about every other aspect of this situation- what do you personally want for you?

[Notwendy]

Physical abuse is easier to hold a boundary with. Making babies- not so much. Biology is working against you. I don't think you need further explanation but here's an analogy.

A person decides they need to lose weight. They eat less but hunger is a biological drive and they are hungry. Their spouse wants them to eat more and so they cook a delicious meal. They walk in the house and in front of them is a banquet and their spouse is trying to persuade them to eat the cake. Oh please - just this once- for me? If you loved me, you'd eat this cake. As firm as this person may be in their decision to avoid sweets, this situation is more difficult for them to remain resolved.

This is a difficult dilemma which is in a way, pushing you to decide on a situation you, so far, have been wanting to avoid.

[Tangled mangled]

If you over 50 and think you have had all your children, consider a vasectomy for peace of mind.
I work in healthcare and I have seen men in their late 50s being thrown in the deep end without their consent into making babies by a new partner who pretended to  be ‘infertile’.

You can do this for yourself and you don’t need permission from anyone.

I apologise if this is a harsh advice but a straightforward approach is what’s needed when dealing with a disordered partner.

[15years]

THIS!  Forget about every other aspect of this situation- what do you personally want for you?

I desperately don't want to be with her 5 years from now. But sometimes a really dark feeling flows over me when it dawns on me that I've been actually considering leaving her. It's so alien to even be thinking about it. Is that normal? Anyone recognize that type of thinking?

[Pook075]

I desperately don't want to be with her 5 years from now. But sometimes a really dark feeling flows over me when it dawns on me that I've been actually considering leaving her. It's so alien to even be thinking about it. Is that normal? Anyone recognize that type of thinking?

Sure, that is normal because you love her and you're co-dependent in your relationship.

When my wife left a few years ago, my initial reaction was pretty mild.  If she wanted to go, she should go.  A few days later though, I was an absolute mess.  And I'd think about times in the marriage where I felt like I was single since she was never around, never focused on me.  She was a lousy wife, to be honest...but I loved her with all my heart as well.

This is never black and white, and there are heavy emotions involved no matter what you decide.  I hurt for awhile but eventually came to peace with the idea that I'm better off without her...because it's true.  My ex was not here for me like a wife should be across our 24 year marriage.

Only you can decide how to proceed.  There's pros and cons to whatever you do.  But the best advice I can give you, that anyone can give you, is to be true to yourself.  It's super hard, I know, but you have to make this decision for yourself since you're the only one that knows everything that's going on and how it impacts your life.  None of us can help there other than to listen and relate to your experiences.

Leaving would be very hard, but staying is also very hard sometimes too.  Balance that out- can you make progress?  Can you find common ground to change the relationship?  You must try to find those answers before giving up completely.  We'll support you no matter what you decide though.

[ChooseHappiness]

It's hard to leave a relationship no matter what the situation, as your life is enmeshed with this person and it's hard to imagine another life. But I've learned the hard way to trust my instincts.

My ex's BPD traits started to show themselves after the birth of our first child, although I didn't know what it was at the time -- I thought it was postpartum. They settled down when I took over every aspect of parenting, but I didn't want to have another kid. She managed to talk me into it for a variety of reasons, even though I was worried about the cycle repeating -- and it did. Now we are getting divorced, selling the house and finding new homes, etc. This is a MUCH more difficult process the more children you have, and your life may very well be destroyed in a similar situation. My ex has certainly destroyed the life of our family and devastated our children, to say nothing of her own estranged family. I don't regret having kids -- they are the meaning of my life -- but her having shared custody of them is going to be a nightmare for everyone involved.

So I guess what I'm saying is trust your instincts. If you think she's taking you down a path you don't want to follow, then don't go down that path. It may be difficult now, but you will be avoiding worse pain later.

[15years]

I think there's a big chance I won't leave now and instead decide to start trying for that third child. Then there will be a mix of confusing happy and dysfunctional fighting for a while, we could go travel to Spain in the summer, which my 7-yo dreams about, and it would be a happy memory for the boys. Then as months pass by I will not live up to her expectations on other areas because since she has grown accustomed to me agreeing on the third child, she needs something else to project her feelings on.

During the pregnancy she will expect me to serve her like royalty, working from home more and constantly asking if she needs anything. And if I don't she will tell me I'm treating her badly, but if I do, she will sense that it makes me irritated, and accuse me of being selfish and unmanly. On the other hand, she will agree to putting my younger son in daycare which I have tried to talk her into for a while.

The third child will be born and I will still not have fallen in love with my wife again so I'll feel terrible and fake, and feel like I'm betraying the family. My wife will continue to accuse me of sexual abuse and other abuse for the following years, but she will do it in a "kind" way, but will get mad when she senses that I don't agree with her version of events, not that I'll argue with her, but she'll want me to say a few words so she knows I'm on her side, and I will not be able to do it because it's not true. I will love that third child a lot and it will be confusing to think about the fact that I agreed to it unwillingly. W will continue to remind me how much she had to fight for the family, and she'll be proud that she stopped me from sabotaging the family.

5 years from now, I'll be a father of three but even more worn out than now, but maybe I will have learned a lot and will feel ready to leave.


Or maybe she will actually have calmed down. My 7 yo remembers the times before we fought. I think it feels sad for him, I think he's thinking it will stop soon and go back to as it was. Maybe if I stay and give in on the big questions, things will go back to like four years ago, when it wasn't good but not as bad as the last four years. If I leave, he might be left with a feeling that something he waited for never happened. My 4yo have never seen anything else.

[Cat Familiar]

If you were to imagine another member wrote the above post, how would you advise him?

[ForeverDad]

It's not about the child, it's the relationship you are concerned about. This is one more situation where there's a demand you don't agree with.

Gerda said it well:  this is making you feel pressured to make a decision about your relationship faster than you feel comfortable with, but sometimes these things are also opportunities to give us some more clarity about the situation.

Notwendy grew up in a dysfunctional family, her father was reasonably normal but an appeaser and in many ways also parenting everyone including his wife.  I don't recall whether she stated so in her posts to you, but from what I've read as kids she and her siblings wished their father had protected them more from their mother's poor behaviors and manipulations.  Her father could have divorced and raised his children, at least for part of their childhood, in his own calmer and more stable home.  But he didn't.  Taking at least some action would have been a better example for all the kids.  She likely would have made better adult choices in her relationships if she had a more stable childhood.  Ah, but the past can't be changed, only the future.

Rather than think of what you can or can't do for yourself, since that is such a dilemma for you to act upon... what will you do for your children and their futures?

[Notwendy]

Yes, FD is correct in that my father both attempted to protect us the best he could in the situation and also didn't protect us. He was both the "normal" example and also the co-dependent one. Before he could have been able to stand up to my mother for our sake, he would have had to be able to stand up for himself. To reiterate- it's not about the child or whether or not to have a child. I don't think we kids are to blame for any of the dysfunction between my parents. Children don't fix a dysfunctional relationship. They also don't cause dysfunction. Whatever is going on between you and your wife is already there.

This isn't even about the question of whether or not to have a child. It's that your wife wants something and you are hesitant. That something happens to be a child but it could be anything, and also a repeated pattern where she wants something and escalates her behavior in order to get what she wants. You give in because not giving in is harder in the moment.

With my BPD mother- the "have to have it" was something she could persist at. And this was supposedly "the thing" that would make her happy. And she would usually get her way. It may have brought some momentary relief for her but since the sourse of her unhappiness was her own internal feelings, that interlude was temporary.

I can't know the road not taken. I don't know how we'd have turned out if my parents had divorced.  I do wish for him to have been able to stand up for his own boundaries- for his own sake too.

My mother is seriously disordered with BPD. It's almost as if one has to adopt her reality in order to not be in conflict with her. I can see it in your posts- the "maybe she will settle down" thinking. My father cogntively knew the difference, but going up against my mother's strong will is difficult.

It's not about the child, it's about you and your marriage and your ability to manage that.

[CravingPeace]

I think there's a big chance I won't leave now and instead decide to start trying for that third child. Then there will be a mix of confusing happy and dysfunctional fighting for a while, we could go travel to Spain in the summer, which my 7-yo dreams about, and it would be a happy memory for the boys. Then as months pass by I will not live up to her expectations on other areas because since she has grown accustomed to me agreeing on the third child, she needs something else to project her feelings on.

During the pregnancy she will expect me to serve her like royalty, working from home more and constantly asking if she needs anything. And if I don't she will tell me I'm treating her badly, but if I do, she will sense that it makes me irritated, and accuse me of being selfish and unmanly. On the other hand, she will agree to putting my younger son in daycare which I have tried to talk her into for a while.

The third child will be born and I will still not have fallen in love with my wife again so I'll feel terrible and fake, and feel like I'm betraying the family. My wife will continue to accuse me of sexual abuse and other abuse for the following years, but she will do it in a "kind" way, but will get mad when she senses that I don't agree with her version of events, not that I'll argue with her, but she'll want me to say a few words so she knows I'm on her side, and I will not be able to do it because it's not true. I will love that third child a lot and it will be confusing to think about the fact that I agreed to it unwillingly. W will continue to remind me how much she had to fight for the family, and she'll be proud that she stopped me from sabotaging the family.

5 years from now, I'll be a father of three but even more worn out than now, but maybe I will have learned a lot and will feel ready to leave.


Or maybe she will actually have calmed down. My 7 yo remembers the times before we fought. I think it feels sad for him, I think he's thinking it will stop soon and go back to as it was. Maybe if I stay and give in on the big questions, things will go back to like four years ago, when it wasn't good but not as bad as the last four years. If I leave, he might be left with a feeling that something he waited for never happened. My 4yo have never seen anything else.

Please read what you wrote again. I get it. I have been there and I did what you are now accepting you will do. The 3rd child is incredible. But my wife is not. I now have to divorce and its alot harder now. If you are ever going to have a boundary it is now........ or you will regret it. Not just for you but bringing anothet child into exposure to bpd. It is damaging and not fair.

[15years]

I find it really hard to even consider the third child suggestion, it's almost not in my control, because I'm so scared of staying with her and on top of that being in a position where even more is expected of me. So it's easy to say no, almost harder to say yes, I'm less scared of her reaction to me saying no.

Yesterday she wanted me to tell my son (7yo) that we will not get a divorce. He was in bed ready to go to sleep. I told him that he doesn't need to worry about things that are between me and mom and he seemed relieved almost. But my wife reacted very badly to that and started a scene right there in our kids bedroom at bedtime. She cried and shouted "do you want a divorce!?" and similar things several times. The word "divorce" was mentioned probably 20 times and s7 was crying a lot. I had to leave them there and go to another room to make it stop.

After that she was talking to them and making excuses for me and lightening the mood. In her view I say I'm not sure I want to stay married only to control her.

Anyway, despite it being traumatic for the kids, if there's anything positive to take away from this, it's that they are more prepared that it could happen. Or is that also only a bad thing? :/

[Notwendy]

Your wife's behavior is disordered and abusive. On one hand you recognize this but also, on the other hand, you are able to rationalize it somehow and reframe it as "not so bad, is it?"

My father could do this too. No matter what my mother did, he somehow managed to rationalize it and compartmentalize it. Yes, there were conflicts, yes there were divorce threats. We were scared over the idea of divorce as younger kids. As teens we were more like "then just do it already".

What resolved the conflicts were- BPD mother always got what she wanted becau, she can raise the level of conflict, drama, and emotional/verbal abuse to the point that one eventually gives in just to stop it.

You have tolerated your wife's behavior, seen how it affects the children, many times and somehow, you are still here with her. We don't post run messages, it really is your choice but I see your ambivalence. think your wife has been transparent about wanting reassurance that you won't leave the marriage. Seems like a baby would provide that.

[Pook075]

Anyway, despite it being traumatic for the kids, if there's anything positive to take away from this, it's that they are more prepared that it could happen. Or is that also only a bad thing? :/

Hey buddy.  I do not see that as a good thing- not with the yelling and arguing.  Doing it this way creates so much anxiety for the kids and that's not good at all.  I always say that the kids have to come first and I believe that with all my heart. 

In my situation, my daughters are young adults and we have an infant grandson (with a second grandchild due any day now).  Even though I'm divorced now and 100% over my ex wife, I've realized that I still need to be on good speaking terms with her for the kids sake.  For instance, my pregnant daughter's birthday is tomorrow, and both her mom and I want to do something with her.  The same happens on holidays, summer vacations, etc. 

So just know that even if you separate or eventually divorce, you're not fully cutting those ties and you're still going to have to figure out how to communicate effectively.  My advice would be to do it now, try to save the marriage but also make very clear boundaries.  Yelling at me is not okay.  Yelling around the kids is 10x worse.  Make it crystal clear- we can work on the marriage, but A, B, and C are non-negotiable and have to happen immediately.

I realize you're walking a tightrope and it's all impossible right now.  There are no clear answers since everything has lasting consequences.  But it's better you have those conversations now when there's still a glimmer of hope.  Once you leave, it will get worse before it gets better and the kids will be dragged through all of it.

[ForeverDad]

But my wife reacted very badly to that and started a scene right there in our kids bedroom at bedtime. She cried and shouted "do you want a divorce!?" and similar things several times. The word "divorce" was mentioned probably 20 times and s7 was crying a lot. I had to leave them there and go to another room to make it stop.

Anyway, despite it being traumatic for the kids, if there's anything positive to take away from this, it's that they are more prepared that it could happen. Or is that also only a bad thing?

No, their experiencing such incidents is not a positive.  For them it's a constant push-pull turbulence inn their little lives.  She was the one who raged and yet you left for her to calm them.  They need stability, calm and a sense of safety.

Do you see your pattern?  You try to calm the scenario but she always sabotages you, you retreat (or are chased away) and she gets to "save" the day by calming the kids she distressed.  This is really upside down and inside out.

I suggest that you don't "leave" without the kids.  Legally that means having prepared your legal ducks in row.  For most of us we weren't as prepared as we'd hoped to be, usually separation is a surprise event imposed upon us.

In some areas exposing the children to abusive environments is actionable, in other areas not.  It seems either you're downplaying (hiding) the abuse from professional knowledge or unsure how much they can help.  Generally, they help after you as the reasonably normal parent take proactive action.  Often that's upon separation and divorce.

Reality:  She has a longstanding pattern and so do you.  She hasn't changed.  It's up to you.

Hey buddy.  I do not see that as a good thing- not with the yelling and arguing.  Doing it this way creates so much anxiety for the kids and that's not good at all.  I always say that the kids have to come first and I believe that with all my heart. 

So just know that even if you separate or eventually divorce, you're not fully cutting those ties and you're still going to have to figure out how to communicate effectively.  My advice would be to do it now, try to save the marriage but also make very clear boundaries.  Yelling at me is not okay.  Yelling around the kids is 10x worse.  Make it crystal clear- we can work on the marriage, but A, B, and C are non-negotiable and have to happen immediately.

I realize you're walking a tightrope and it's all impossible right now.  There are no clear answers since everything has lasting consequences.  But it's better you have those conversations now when there's still a glimmer of hope.  Once you leave, it will get worse before it gets better and the kids will be dragged through all of it.

On the flip side, if you don't leave, it will still get worse but it won't get better.

While I admire the above strategy, you've been here for years and it's still abusive and repeated ultimatums.

Your two children are already being impacted by the adult discord they're exposed to.  She's using them as weapons, to soothe her own feelings and perceptions. She knows you'll retreat and appease in the face of her rants, rages and demands.  Don't want to say it out loud, but do you know the account of Pavlov's dog, conditioned responses?

This scenario won't end until you end it.  It has worked for her for many years, perhaps even before she met you, why should she change her ways now?  It's your choice.  Maybe you can't stop the madness, but you can limit it.

Read this post again...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352584.msg13170408#msg13170408