Part 4: Will she ever realize the truth?

[Stillhopeful4]

Mod Note:  Part 3 of this topic is here    https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339930.0;all

so, as a starting point, what does a person in that position need? what would you need if it were happening to you?

I'm not sure...space maybe?  I'm trying to give her that.


Update on my weekend:  Things went downhill very very fast.  I saw her a few times, and those times were good and civil.  Then there was a family crisis and she couldn't be there for me because she was out with friends.  That happened 3 times this weekend.  Like 6 really bad things happened and all she kept saying is I'm sorry I can't be there for you right now I'm out with blabla I'll call you tomorrow.  Then she tried to call my daughter and pawn my problems off on her and said go help mom.  I was made to feel like a worthless piece of poop.  I'm so angry that she is replacing her family with friends... taking her friend and her kid to a place we went to as a family that was our tradition.  Then going out dress shopping with her boss...my uBPDw HATES to shop, never mind dress shopping...ALL day...with her BOSS?  And to say sorry I can't be there for you, I know this major event that just happened is horrible...but I am out with my friends.  Our whole marriage, her friends always came first.  I think I have realized a lot this weekend.  I think there isn't much hope left.  She still views me as the problem and that she has no issues and seems to be very happy with replacing me and our family with friends.  I have cried for 2 days straight.  I almost checked myself into a hospital.  Things in all aspects of my life have just spiraled downward.  Also, she won't talk to me anymore because she came by the house to see me last night and I left before she got there and wouldn't answer her calls.  I didn't want to her to see me in such a distraught state.  I'm really not doing well.

SH4

[once removed]

I'm not sure...space maybe?  I'm trying to give her that.

space is good.

stability, i think, is what would be critical. mental stability, emotional stability...strength.

you are feeling (and reacting) to what is going on with your wife on a very personal level.

and it is personal...your family has been upended, and you dont know whats going to happen. youre trying to make the best of a bad situation.

i dont want to suggest that what is going on with her has nothing to do with you or your relationship. if everything were going swimmingly, you wouldnt be going through this.

i do want to suggest that the picture is bigger than that. if your wife had been diagnosed with say, terminal cancer, what she would be going through wouldnt be dissimilar. shed be fearing mortality. shed be going through a tremendous amount emotionally. one person in that situation might respond by leaning on their support system. one person might withdraw, go into deep depression, that sort of thing.

your wife is responding to her crisis by fleeing and withdrawing, rather than leaning on you. she doesnt know which way is up or down. she just wants safety and stability.

the best card you can play is to project that. to show calm in the storm. this will be mighty attractive.

none of that should come of course, at the expense of your feelings, and what you are also going through. when it comes to that storm, you need your own outlet(s), your own safety and stability. mix the two, however, and your wife is likely to flee.

she doesnt have the skills or emotional ability (especially right now) to be your rock or a source of emotional support. expecting that of her right now is counter productive.

make sense?

[Stillhopeful4]

if your wife had been diagnosed with say, terminal cancer, what she would be going through wouldnt be dissimilar.

Ummmm, about 15 years ago she was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer.  Because she was so young they treated it very aggressively and it's gone...

none of that should come of course, at the expense of your feelings, and what you are also going through. when it comes to that storm, you need your own outlet(s), your own safety and stability. mix the two, however, and your wife is likely to flee.

she doesnt have the skills or emotional ability (especially right now) to be your rock or a source of emotional support. expecting that of her right now is counter productive.

make sense?

Yes.  I guess I need to find a new outlet.  I don't like to talk to my "friends" because all they do is say...oh just forget about her and then they try and set me up with someone else... I DO NOT WANT that type of support. 

Thanks you,

SH4

[Enabler]

Hey SH4,

I can very much empathise with that type of support 'error'. It often doesn't feel like support, it feels like the support is often contingent on you adhering to friends 'ideal' for you.

I'm not so sure this is what Once Removed is pointing to though. I think she's referring to the support you are getting for the family issues. I'd imagine that your friends might not be as ineffective with something they can comprehend such as an illness or losing a job or kids etc (whatever non-relationship life events you needed support for). I don't think you need to believe in unicorns to be able to support people through those kinds of events as they're everyday understandable occurrences. Your W however is unlikely to be a good source of support in these situations. Typically a pwBPD needs to be the victim and wants support, they sometimes feel uncomfortable offering support to others especially those whom they are reliant on support for themselves. Also, in your W's case she seems to be running away maybe hiding from the situation and immersing herself into other friends.

So in summary, it might be wise to not rely on your W for your personal and practical support needs... it is wise to be careful and selective about who you rely on for support when it comes to discussing your relationship with you W. As you have discovered, some people are not in the right place to 'get' the complexity of BPD, and others who do 'get it' may not be in a position where they wish to support you in the way you need it i.e. not just tell you to move on to the next one. Be selective whom you attempt to get support from for individual things... one may not cover both needs.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Be selective whom you attempt to get support from for individual things... one may not cover both needs.

I'm learning this the hard way.  I don't usually reach out to anyone for support so this is difficult for me to begin with.  I'm afraid I'm going to clam up and not say anything to anyone and just bottle things up.

[Enabler]

Why? Do you see asking for help as a sign of weakness?

[Stillhopeful4]

I don't really have anybody to ask.  She's turned so many people against me, she's kept all the friends and I've been told certain ones are off limits.  I have a few close friends that were my friends before I met her, but one just wants to hook me up with people and the other just wants to tell me how much time I have wasted and I need to suck it up and move on.  I don't want to hear that.  Nobody other than my daughter knows about the BPD.  So I can't tell anyone because if that got back her she would never speak to me again.  So I hold it all in...

[Enabler]

Would you consider your T as a source of support? It's sounds like you have managed what you have said and not said on the BPD front with the T.

Have you considered sitting your friends down and telling them EXACTLY the support you need, and maybe EXACTLY the support that you do not feel is helpful. Your friends are likely wanting to be helpful and maybe they think they are... but they won't know they are not being helpful unless you tell them their words are actually NOT helpful. Be direct and specific, acknowledge that they are likely trying to help but that you're not in the place where that support is helpful. Are the legacy friends aware of BPD or aware of your W's suspected issues?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Yes and no in regards to the T.  I feel he's helpful to vent, but I also feel things she says to him comes back to me through him and vice versa.  I am thinking of cancelling all of my appointments with him because I know she needs him way more than I do at this point.

As far as the friends, I don't like to say too much.  I have one friends that told me outright that she hates my W and that if I ever get back with her again she will never speak to me again because I'm a sucker for being abused.  Needless to say I have distanced myself from this "friend".  I don't think many people understand BPD and I feel really bad saying it because I would hate for it to get back to  my W and that would just be another reason for her to hate me, because it would be OMG SH4 is spreading rumors that I have a PD.  So no I don't have anyone that I can trust with this.

SH4

[Enabler]

Okay, the shared T sounds like a great idea on the face of it but also then becomes tough for him to take a neutral stance. My T is great in many respects because he doesn't know my W and therefore always caveats what he says by "I only know what you have told me", that said, it would be great to get a feel for his professional opinion and if he thought I was delusional he could impart that on me and guide me to the truth. I certainly never felt like there was ANY flow of information back and forth between me, him and my wife, even when my W was seeing another T in the same practice (he's the proprietor of the practice).

Do you work? Are there colleagues you can confide in?

Have you considered educating your friends, maybe the best person would be the person who was so vehemently anti your W. Would you consider her to be "safe" with information? I have stumbled across people recently who are good outlets who were open to learning, went away and taught themselves about PD's (for their own personal reasons... something struck a cord in them) and they have been solid sources of discussion.

It is wise not to brandish around the PD stamp, I did it believing I was showing the 'truth'... I ultimately discredited myself as NO ONE was in a position to see a grain of truth of what I said, even if I supported it with evidence. They didn't believe that Unicorns existed.

Enabler

[gadget]

I'm praying for you SH4!   

You have friends here that will always listen and try to help.  I'm always super happy to talk to you

Gadget

[once removed]

im speaking of looking at, and building your support system, more broadly.

i have friends in my life that i go to for different things.

i have some that i go to just to vent, if im not looking for feedback, advice, or to be checked.

i have others thats i go to because i know theyll help me to look at myself and the situation more critically. theyll check me, and that helps me get on a more constructive path.

venting feels good, and getting validation does too. the problem with it though, is that it can make us feel more entrenched, and further polarize the conflict. im guessing you have been approaching things that way with your friends. theyre reading what youre saying, and responding to it: "leave. date someone else". by and large, it is how you are approaching things here on this board. it isnt helping you.

the second aspect of this (your wife as a part of your support system) is more complicated. the fact is, the two of you are two months separated. no one in that situation is in a good position to be a support system, regardless of whats going on with her emotionally or mentally. withdrawing from that sort of dynamic is human nature.

what im really speaking to is getting different kinds of support from different places.

when it comes to your friends, have a good time with them. surround yourself with them. let them make you feel good. this will make you feel less isolated, more connected, and stronger. i wouldnt lean on them any more for support when it comes to your wife. i would also make new ones...build your friendships. join a class, or a meetup, whatever it takes. keep things upbeat and about the friendship.

when it comes to bpdfamily, use it to examine yourself and the circumstances more critically. take on the hardest aspects of this, get on more solid footing and find your path.

find a neutral therapist. keep the venting (we all need to do some of it) to a minimum. use the therapist in conjunction with bpdfamily to look critically.

how about family? it would be wise to lean on family when it comes to the support you need pertaining to family.

faith? lean on that as well.

[Stillhopeful4]

Do you work? Are there colleagues you can confide in?

Yes, I do work, full time.  I have a few co-workers that I could talk to.  But I don't really feel comfortable with it.

Have you considered educating your friends, maybe the best person would be the person who was so vehemently anti your W. Would you consider her to be "safe" with information? I have stumbled across people recently who are good outlets who were open to learning, went away and taught themselves about PD's (for their own personal reasons... something struck a cord in them) and they have been solid sources of discussion.

I did try this with one friend and she couldn't grasp the concept and told me to have my W committed...ughhhhh.

It is wise not to brandish around the PD stamp, I did it believing I was showing the 'truth'... I ultimately discredited myself as NO ONE was in a position to see a grain of truth of what I said, even if I supported it with evidence. They didn't believe that Unicorns existed.

And this is what I struggle with.  I struggling skating around the PD thing, when that is the core of the discussion.  How can I have a honest conversation about what I'm feeling if the person I'm talking to doesn't know the whole "truth" or my hypothesis?  And then there is the fact that even if I mention anything about a PD, they have no clue what I am talking about and they think I am crazy.  So I leave it...I just rather not say anything.

[once removed]

struggling skating around the PD thing, when that is the core of the discussion.  How can I have a honest conversation about what I'm feeling if the person I'm talking to doesn't know the whole "truth" or my hypothesis?

i think this is part of the mindset that is keeping you stuck.

the problem is not the PD. the problem isnt her. the problem isnt you. the problem is the two of you. the problem is the conflict and how the two of you deal with it. the problem is whether one of you can take the lead and find new, healthier ways of resolving conflict, and whether, at this point, that is possible.

people with BPD are just like you and me, only more extreme. human nature still applies. thats what is getting lost in all of this.

shes given you lots of clues as to what has broken down your marriage, as well as her current mindset.

for the most part, you are dismissive of them, or argue with them, or defend yourself against them.

its hard to problem solve from that mindset. and its hard to problem solve if you look at your wife as the problem.

your wife felt trapped and isolated in your marriage. she left. the two of you are separated. shes struggling with a decision. youre struggling to cope.

thats the core of the discussion.

[Stillhopeful4]

venting feels good, and getting validation does too. the problem with it though, is that it can make us feel more entrenched, and further polarize the conflict. im guessing you have been approaching things that way with your friends. theyre reading what youre saying, and responding to it: "leave. date someone else". by and large, it is how you are approaching things here on this board. it isnt helping you.

Once removed,

I'm not sure what you mean.  Can you explain more?


Also, I don't have much family at all.  I have no siblings and my parents are very elderly.  I have my 3 kids, which I do talk to my daughter about a lot but not the boys.  I have a few friends, but we mostly hung out with her friends, which I'm not allowed to talk to anymore because she said they are off limits.  I get the house and the kids, she gets the friends.

Faith, well, being lesbian & catholic doesn't really mix, so I can't really go there.

[Stillhopeful4]

I'm praying for you SH4!   

You have friends here that will always listen and try to help.  I'm always super happy to talk to you

Gadget

Thank you Gadget 

[Stillhopeful4]

Weekend update:  I don't even know where to begin.

This weekend was the annual tournament that we enter a team into.  I was going back and forth about going.  I don't play the sport, but I'm the team "mom" and keep score and we have fun with it.  We have been doing it for 10 years.  Some people come from out of state to play and stay at my house.  She couldn't have them stay at her new place because she has family from out of state in.  Tournament went well.  It was a busy day and we were around a lot of people and we didn't talk about anything.  At the end of it we were all hanging out and her cousin say SH4 my friend at work has 4 puppies, do you want one.  I said no (we have fought about the dogs I do have an that she didn't want any of them other that TOPDOG#1).  As, most of you know she took TOPDOG when she left but still allows me to have him once in awhile.  So she laughs and says..YEAH SH4 you should get another dog to replace TOPDOG.  Everyone looked at her like wow, that was a butt hole comment.  I just said TOPDOG is irreplaceable and walked away.  Her very close dog lover friend, who knows how hard it is for me every time she leaves and takes TOPDOG gave her the dirtiest look.  I think the comment hurt enough, but with the laughing it was like a punch in the gut.  Then a few minutes later she said twice, very loudly...COME ON FAMILY get in the car we are going out for a FAMILY dinner.  It hurt so much to know she doesn't think of me as family suddenly.  When they drove away I broke down and when we left...all her friends came back to my house.  I think they are starting to see it too...she says one thing and does another.  There is more, like her preaching about my 16 DS all these years and getting so angry when I let him have a wine cooler on a holiday...because her cousin died at 19 of drunk driving and it's supposedly her value she can't compromise on.  So at the tourney her little cousin, (who's uncle was the 19 year old that died 20 years ago) is there, he's 15, she's giving him jello shots...not one or two...like 6 or 7, then hands him her keys to move her car.  I called her out on it.  I'm like why is it ok for him and not DS...all I got was "he's different".   Then the next day I posted all the pics I took of the tourney on social media and tagged everyone on the team including her.  She copied my pics down, posted them by herself and wouldn't allow the post I tagged her in to post to her timeline.  It's pretty clear she doesn't want someone on this social media site seeing she was with me.  Then yesterday she had a little get together at her place for the family, she invited my DD and grandbabies, she didn't invite me, which I get that and understand, but she didn't invite my boys.  She has totally pushed them away and it's very hard to watch and my daughter even told me she felt bad being there.  Because my 16 DS and this 15 cousin have always been close.  The cousin was here for 5 days and she didn't even text or call DS and invite him to any of the events she had planned.  When I was talking to DS last night, he was like "COUSIN D is up here?  How come she didn't tell me"...how do I respond to that?  All I said was I'm sorry.  My 16 DS and my W have always been the closest out of all of the kids.  It's so sad to watch.

I'm starting to see things more clearly.  Yes, she just adjusts her "values" to her situation.  I'm trying to process everything that's happened over the past two weeks.  It hurts and I'm sad but I think I need to face reality.  I don't know how this girl can sleep at night.

Her family leaves today.  I haven't really heard from her over text since they have been here.  They have been off doing all the things I have been asking her to do with me and she "didn't want to ."  I'm sure she will start texting me again after they leave.  I need to not react, I need to not tell her how I'm feeling about all of this.  I need to finishing processing all of this and figure out what's best for me.

Thanks for listening.

SH4

[Enabler]

Hey SH4,

Sounds pretty brutal and mega tough not to take these things personally... which I'm of course going to ask you to do.

One thing that's certainly worth taking away from this weekend is that if you stay cool, try and minimise your reactions, people do see. They might not know what is going on, but they notice things.

It's great that you were able to have a good laugh in amongst the other stuff. Maybe you should advise your Son to generate direct relationships with important family connections he has made i.e. his cousin. That way he can take himself and the cousin out of the 'games'.

Avoid games as much as possible.

What will you say to your W if she tries to reconnect?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Sounds pretty brutal and mega tough not to take these things personally... which I'm of course going to ask you to do.

It's very hard not to take it personally...but I am trying.

What will you say to your W if she tries to reconnect?

At this point I don't know.  I expect she will be busy getting caught up on work & school work at least until the weekend.  There is a slight possibility I could run into her at my son's game on Thursday, but she hasn't been to any lately, so maybe not.  That should buy me some time to figure out what I'm going to say ...if I say anything.  I think just saying nothing at all is best.

But at the end of the day, I'm feeling all of these things.  Looking from the outside in to see how much she's all over the place.  The "boundaries" she put in place that she said were her "core values" and how she couldn't live like this because of nobody respecting them and that's what she stands by of what caused her to leave this time...then she's a hypocrite and is giving her 15 YO cousin jello shots and it's ok because "he's different".  The fact that she has totally dismissed us as her family.  The fact that I have sacrificed so much for her for the past 10 years and she has zero respect for MY boundaries.

Seriously, how do I trust once she goes through this phase...and comes back...that she won't just do this again in 2 years (that's her pattern)?  I'm in my late 40's.  I feel like I'm getting too old for these games and this roller coaster.  I don't know how I could ever get over the fear that when things aren't 100% about her or aren't going well, she will just leave AGAIN.  I don't know what I'm going to do, right now I'm not going to do anything and just see how it plays out...one day at a time.

SH4

[gadget]

Hi SH4!   

Sorry things are so rough.  I'm doing the same as you.  Not saying much because most things I say inflame my wife if it is anything other than hows' work?  How are you?  The other day on FaceBook our pictures/memories showed from this time last year when my wife and I were on a weekend train trip to Chicago.  My 1st time, her 3rd time.

I was texting her and said "Good pictures.  I love those memories".  She said "I know, I am sorry".  I said "Me too".  Then she said "Please don't do this today.  It's hard enough really".

So...  I know it's hard to not take this all personally.  I do that too.  But as time goes on it gets easier.  For me, being quiet, only texting when she texts me, and keeping the conversations neutral has helped to keep things on a very nice level.  Nothing about us.  But we can talk and laugh together.

I hope that works for you too.  Hang in there!  It always helps to come to this forum and talk these things out.  I swear, for me, this forum has helped me more than Therapy because all of you can understand and have been through things similar to me.  I'd really like to tell my Therapist on Wed that I think my wife is BPD.  But I'm not sure that would help anything.

Hugs!

Gadget

[Enabler]

Gadget, I’m glad the people here are helping you chew through issues and get to a better place. I’m touched to hear that.

SH4, hypocrisy is very hard to swallow. At the time, I’m sure that value was very important to her. From our perspective it’s difficult to see that it’s a different course and thus a different horse, maybe it is to her, maybe her VERY STRONG value just suited her at the time.

Since the recycling has happened in the past, can you remember how you ‘got over it’ before? Does knowing about BPD make it more challenging this time? Did you own more responsibility for the previous breakups whereas this time you maybe feel less ownership of the breakup?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

I hope that works for you too.  Hang in there!  It always helps to come to this forum and talk these things out.  I swear, for me, this forum has helped me more than Therapy because all of you can understand and have been through things similar to me.  I'd really like to tell my Therapist on Wed that I think my wife is BPD.  But I'm not sure that would help anything.

Hi Gadget,

I agree, being able to talk to others in similar situations has helped me tremendousl to understand and not react to so many things.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

Since the recycling has happened in the past, can you remember how you ‘got over it’ before? Does knowing about BPD make it more challenging this time? Did you own more responsibility for the previous breakups whereas this time you maybe feel less ownership of the breakup?

I'm not sure how I got over it before.  Maybe it was that hope for the romantic period to return.  Yes, this time knowing about BPD makes it different this time.  Some days it's more challenging and others it's more hurtful knowing what I know and yet other days it really does keep my reaction level down.  The past breakups she blamed 100% on me and I felt, at the time, it was all my fault...and I would always beg her to come back.  This time, I do understand we are both 50/50 responsible for it not working, but it seems like from everything I have learned here..it could never have worked where it was.  IF there is any hope it seems like I am going to have to do a hell of a lot more work just to keep the peace, but now that I know she will never get back to that stage and show me any affection... I don't know what I'm going to do moving forward.

Thanks,

SH4

[once removed]

"he's different".

small point but an important one:

you have a blended family. blending a family is a difficult process (one that can be ongoing) for anyone. it can be a power struggle, at times.

i think your wife was trying to assert herself, and trying to have a say when it comes to parenting when she was talking about her "values". it was more about being acknowledged, heard, respected, having a say. even non blended families do this...feel undermined by each other.

why is it "different"? her cousin is blood.

not a small point: this (blending the family) has been an ongoing struggle in your marriage. she feels isolated. shes felt she hasnt had a say.

so what is she doing now? what are these jabs about? long standing resentment.

hypocrisy? sure. but in focusing on that, i think youre missing the bigger picture.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Can you explain more?

i think that you are more caught up in who is right or wrong, good or bad, the unfairness, than understanding what broke down the relationship over time, the dynamics at play now (left over from the relationship), understanding your role in that, and importantly, how, if possible, all of these things can be resolved constructively.

its a valid place to be. it hasnt been fair. shes jerked you around. shes being a brat.

but its also a defensive place to be, and one that makes it harder to understand and resolve conflict.

[Stillhopeful4]

Ok guys I think I made a big mistake on Monday.

So I knew Monday was going to hard for her, her out of state family was leaving and it was the last day of her 10 day stay vacation.  I know I should not have reacted.  Anyway, Monday afternoon she updated her social media to remove "Married to SH4".  When I saw it I was so upset.  I texted her..wow..followed by another text stating that that hurt and she could have had a conversation with me and I shouldn't have to read about it on social media and I thought it was sneaky.  She didn't reply...I went to the ladies room at work and came back to several text messages saying how dare I blow up her phone and not answer when she calls and missed calls.  I'm sitting here thinking I send two sentences...hardly blowing up her phone.  I called her back immediately...she SCREAMED at me, who was I and she doesn't owe me anything and that all that text was was me calling her a piece of poop (which I did not say, but it's how I made her FEEL) and she changed it because our anniversary is coming up next week and she doesn't want anyone wishing her happy anniversary etc.  Then she started accusing me of having an affair with one of the guys at the tournament...she was like I saw you talking to him... I said yes I did talk to him, we were at the tourney for 10 hours, I was talking to him for about 3 minutes about his sisters surgery.  There was no flirting there was no NOTHING.   I told her I was at work and leaving and could I call her back in 2 minutes when I got to the car...she screamed down the phone f u and just go f the guy from the tourney and hung up.  I called her back when I got in the car, she didn't answer.  I texted please call me when you are free.  She called me back a few minutes later and just kept screaming for almost an hour, she said she shouldn't have to live by my standards of a marriage... I was crying the whole time and she just kept screaming and saying horrible things about me...HORRIBLE.  I kept asking if we could talk at another time when she wasn't so angry.  She finally hung up, but not before saying to go f that guy again.  Then nothing happened for about an hour and then suddenly she blew up my phone telling me we HAVE TO GET divorced immediately and she can't live like this anymore.  I asked again if we could talk another day...she told me there is nothing to talk about because I had said I wanted a divorce 4 months ago ONE TIME (the day this all started with the concert) and that it didn't matter that for the past 4 months I have said I don't want one because she doesn't believe me that I love her and want to be with her..because she doesn't believe me.  I said I think if this is what she wants we need to talk about it in person.  She said she doesn't owe me anything because she knows I'm sleeping with the Tourney guy.  I tried to reassure her there isn't anything going on with him or ANYONE else.  I told her I love her and only want her.  Then she texted "I'm done...stop texting me...I'M DONE"... I did not reply...5 minutes later she texts "what will talking face to face do?"  I said after 10 years I think we shouldn't end this over text...she found that funny and said this isn't ending over text.  I haven't heard from her since and that was Monday night.  I stayed home from work yesterday. 

I'm just at a loss of what to do.  I need to accept that she wants nothing to do with me.  I know she was projecting.  I'm pretty sure she's seeing someone else.  I know I can't fix her.  I know she has to figure this out by herself, but will she ever?  How can she just abandon her whole family the only family she has basically (except her out of state, 8 hour drive family).  Just to totally walk away from us, it really hurts that shes capable of doing such a thing.

Any advise?

Thanks,
SH4

[gadget]

Hi SH4!   

So sorry it escalated like this.  I wonder myself how I will react when/if my wife changes her FB status from Married to Separated.  I think I'll just stop talking to her.

My wife kind of gets escalated like this too.  Not yelling but similar to this via text.  It must be a BPD thing.  The other day I had asked her to watch my special needs son so I could go to a Karate Black Belt workout on Friday.  She said she would.  This time she didn't want to.  When I questioned her.  She mentioned "maybe we need to get a lawyer before this gets ugly".

Our BPD SO seem to go to the worst places instantly.  Get angry, upset, want lawyers, etc.  I'm finding with my wife, for now, I don't bring up anything about us at all.  We can talk about our work day, our kids, etc, and that is about all for now.  It's sad for all of us nonBPD.  For me, all I feel I can do is continue therapy, make sure she does too, and be calm and neutral.  We can't make our BPD SO's any better.  We have to wait and see if with time and therapy things will get better and maybe they will come back to us one day.  I know I won't wait forever.  I want a companion in my life again.  I will wait 1 year then confront her about if there is any chance for us.  I don't want to have to find someone new, but will if I have no choice.  I don't want to be alone.

Hang in there.  We are always here to listen and comment and support you!  This isn't easy for any of us.  I'm much better now than 5 months ago when my wife left.  I still have bad moments/days.  But I know I will go on to be successful in my life and my happiness with or without her.  I know you will too.  Patience in waiting for our BPD SO's is the most trying patience.

I'm always here to chat 

Gadget

[Stillhopeful4]

We have to wait and see if with time and therapy things will get better and maybe they will come back to us one day. 

What worries me about this is that they aren't aware and they think the problem lies with us judging them, attacking them etc etc.  How can they get the help they need and focus on what is truely the issue if they aren't even aware and can't admit it.

I've been doing a lot of research, as I'm sure many of you guys have done.  Her mom has AvPD, I've always thought my W had BPD crossed with OCPD, now I'm thinking the AvPD fits in as well.  I'm not looking for something to blame.  I'm just trying to figure it out so I know what I can give her or not give her to help communicate with her in a way she will understand.  The AvPD stick out because she says she FEARS me.  I was dumbfounded when I heard this, I said what do you FEAR...she says she fears how I will judge her for things she does.  Then it got me thinking, hmmmm she won't dance because she doesn't want people to judge her.  She will only participate in something she is VERY good at.  If we go anywhere she wants to sit in the corner.  She is ashamed of her body.  She's always worried about how she looks or does this fit me just right.  She is VERY insecure.  She has trust issues in every relationship she has...friends, work, kids, me, family.  Like I said, I'm not trying to diagnose her.  I'm just trying to find the best path to understand what she's thinking and feeling so I can communicate with her and not do things to hurt her more than she's already hurting.

Thanks for listening Gadget.  ((Hugs)  I'm here for you too if you need to chat!

SH4

[gadget]

How can they get the help they need and focus on what is truely the issue if they aren't even aware and can't admit it.

She is ashamed of her body.  She's always worried about how she looks or does this fit me just right.  She is VERY insecure.  I'm not trying to diagnose her.  I'm just trying to find the best path to understand what she's thinking and feeling so I can communicate with her and not do things to hurt her more than she's already hurting.

My wife is diagnosed as having Compassion Fatigue from helping raise our special needs son over the last 25 years.  This is "Allegedly" why she left.  Our shared Therapist said that is treated just like they treat PTSD.  So at least my wife is diagnosed with that and is being treated, she still is going to Therapy every 2 weeks as I am.  Our Therapist knows I read A LOT.  I told her I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and see a lot of my wife in that book.  She said "Mmmm Hmmm", nodded, and we spoke no more of that.  But the Therapist knows I know, and I'm sure she knows what BPD is.  We don't have an agreement between me, Therapist and my wife to share info between our individual therapy sessions.  But I figure if I share our text interactions, it may help the Therapist understand and help treat her issues better.

My wife is also ashamed of her body.  She had the weight loss surgery and looks way different now.  I've heard from a family friend that also had that surgery, that getting that surgery done messes with your mind.  Also, when you are skinnier, you start getting attention from other men that you never did before.  I really hope that isn't part of her reason for leaving too.  I treated her like a queen.  Gave her everything.  Gave more to her than myself.  Told her every day how beautiful she is, though I don't think she ever believed me.

I'm like you.  I read not to diagnose, but to help the therapist understand my wife from my side, my point of view.  I'm not sure my wife tells the therapist everything, so maybe what I do helps fill in the gaps?  I know my wife still drinks while on Anti-Anxiety/Depression meds which isn't good.  I also wonder if she is doing all the things our Therapist says to get better?  I would think if she was, and being gone for 5 months, she wouldn't still be posting on FB about depression and being on the edge?

 

Gadget

[Stillhopeful4]

Gadget,

It's so hard for us to know where they are at with giving them some distance.

I think it's getting clearer for me because my W said some odd things over text Monday.  Like you never wanted "the marriage" and we really need to focus on "this divorce"...and then later "when we were married."  We haven't even filed for divorce, but taking off her ring and changing her status I guess in her mind we are divorced.  It's like she's already made up her mind, but is putting it on me, because I said one thing one time when I was angry.  I talk to other married couples and they say they throw the divorce word around every now and again, and that it doesn't mean when one person says it in the heat of an argument 4 months ago, that it's carved in stone.  I've told her this, and she says it's ALL lies and that I'm just trying to manipulate her and that married couples NEVER say that unless they mean it.  Then I asked a married couple, they said oh yeah we say that all the time, she lost her sh** on me that I would dare ask, just to prove her wrong and that just CONFIRMED I want a divorce.

I don't know what to do at this point.  I really don't.  I feel like when she's not around things are much calmer.  I'm not walking on egg shells, or trying to create this perfect bubble to keep her happy.  Trying to make sure I do everything she wants, trying to make sure the kids don't behave badly, trying to make sure the dogs don't bark too much, trying to rush home to get there before her to clean up the house and any dishes the kids might have left in the sink before she gets there...etc etc... and no matter what I did, it wasn't good enough...there was always "I can't live like this anymore."

It's so frustrating knowing I did so much to try and give her what she wanted and she still views me as the bad guy who did nothing for her but make her miserable.

SH4

[gadget]

I think one thing that helps as I see in your words here and from my wife.  Logic doesn't apply at all.  They are driven by their emotions.  So we will never be right.

My T says I'm not responsible for my wife's feelings.  So I stop thinking about them or doing anything for her.  On my side, before my wife left, she told my daughter she didn't want a divorce.  So I guess we are in separation limbo forever?

My wife has threatened getting a lawyer twice, though she doesn't have the money for one.  I think she does that when she is frustrated.

I can see your frustration.  My wife doesn't say I'm the bad guy, she is.  Yet my friend and Therapist figured it out.  I am the bad guy.  Because I do so well handling my special needs son and she does not.  So, feels bad/guilty she doesn't handle it as well as I do, so I'm the bad guy for being good at it?  See ... ZERO logic

Hang in there.  It is tough.  Toughest thing I have done in my life.  But it does get easier.  I do my thing and try not to think of my wife much at all.

I have therapy tonight so that will help.

Gadget

[Enabler]

Hey SH4,

Knowing what you know now from  bpdfamily, what do you think you could have done differently when it all kicked off? This isn't beat yourself up time... this is tough stuff and unpleasant and emotionally triggering for you. I'm not here to tell you you did something wrong, I'd like to highlight... or more accurately help you identify what you could have done differently. If you can, transpose your post "Ok guys I think I made a big mistake on Monday." and lets talk about what you could have done which would have turned away from conflict, not chucked fuel on the fire. It may require you doing something very drastic to avert your instinct to react... buying time allows yourself to become less triggered and get yourself to a place where you can see alternative possibilities for peoples motivations or make conscious decisions to swerve obvious land mines where you inevitably lose a leg.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

what do you think you could have done differently when it all kicked off?

I know I should not have said anything about her removing the "Married to..." from social media.  I should not have texted her.  The whole thing could have been avoided.  Regardless of that...at the end of the day, she still feels the way she feels and even if I hadn't reacted to it...it's how she felt to remove it.  At some point I have to accept that she just doesn't want to be with me.

So I came across this today...  I would like to know everyone's thoughts?
https://www.loveaddictionhelp.com/12-distancing-strategies-the-love-avoidant-uses-to-avoid-intimacy

These 12 things, these tick every single box of my W.  She has done all of them in our relationship and every relationship before me.  If this is who she is and will never change, she will never want me...I need to ask myself what am I fighting so hard for?

SH4

[once removed]

generally speaking, divorce threats are very destructive to relationships.

I talk to other married couples and they say they throw the divorce word around every now and again, and that it doesn't mean when one person says it in the heat of an argument 4 months ago, that it's carved in stone.  I've told her this, and she says it's ALL lies and that I'm just trying to manipulate her and that married couples NEVER say that unless they mean it.  Then I asked a married couple, they said oh yeah we say that all the time, she lost her sh** on me that I would dare ask, just to prove her wrong and that just CONFIRMED I want a divorce.

this is an example of what i mean when it comes to gravitating more toward validation for your side of the conflict than trying to resolve it.

does the fact that some married couples have slipped and threatened divorce have any bearing on your relationship, how it felt to your wife, what it means for the two of you right now? it was clearly a huge deal to her. it was clearly a turning point in a series of turning points of your relationship breaking down.

I'm not looking for something to blame.  I'm just trying to figure it out so I know what I can give her or not give her to help communicate with her in a way she will understand. 

you are very quick to dismiss the answers she has given you over the months.

wouldnt the simplest thing be (in that situation, for example) to show that you understand how a divorce threat might have affected her? that you said it in the heat of the moment, but that you didnt mean it, that you value the marriage and not saying things like that out of anger? that its something you vow never to do again? its unlikely that it would completely alleviate her feelings about it; that wouldnt be the point.

SH4, i dont say any of this to beat you up, i say it to help, and to reach you. this relationship is on a fast track to divorce that gets faster and more likely every time the conflict between the two of you escalates. you are a big part of that - both of you are pretty entrenched.

if you want to save this relationship (a goal we all share), and if its possible, its going to take a radically different mindset, and approach.

Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse.

Someone has to be first. This means generating the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are destructive to the relationship.

Make a Commitment to Stop Making it Worse

The first step is commitment. By definition, when you are out of control (throwing the proverbial fuel on the fire), you are not using logic (or any other helpful process) enough.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

are you up for it?

[Stillhopeful4]

SH4, i dont say any of this to beat you up, i say it to help, and to reach you.

Once Removed,
I know you are only trying to help and I really appreciate it.  Thank you!

are you up for it?

Yes I am up for it.  I have read that lesson several times before.  I guess I don't know how to put it into practice.

I think my fear is she is just too far gone and looking for any little thing as an excuse to get out of this.

Thanks again for your help.

SH4

[once removed]

I think my fear is she is just too far gone and looking for any little thing as an excuse to get out of this.

she may, in part, be. that may be how far things have gone. though that is hardly the same thing as being "done". i spent three years looking for that excuse and didnt leave.

all of the fighting, all of the resentment, indicates a certain level of attachment, albeit destructive. if she were completely done, she wouldnt be interested in any of that.

she is fighting, has been fighting for a very long time, to be heard. people make breakup threats, or take steps to breakup, sometimes, in order to be heard. its thin ice when they do; its kind of like a last straw. it means they have partly grieved the relationship...they may not be completely done, but they may be leaning that way.

if shes looking for excuses, those excuses exist. right now there is no incentive to return to the relationship. even apart, its all heavy conflict and getting worse. if she came back right now, it would be a disaster; the two of you would be right back at it, possibly in even worse fashion.

but i think on some level, so are you (looking for excuses to get out of this).

with every conflict, youre more frustrated, more hopeless, more beaten up, more resentful, more "i might really be done this time".

its a valid place to be. but its a place thats really hard to repair a relationship from.

I guess I don't know how to put it into practice.

Make a Commitment to Stop Making it Worse

The first step is commitment.

it starts with commitment. whether it is to give up, or to reinvest, you want to make the best out of a tough situation. it means stopping the bleeding. acting constructively rather than destructively. choose a path, and put all of your eggs in that basket.

But, even if you have the capacity to do a particular behavior that is effective, you might still lack the motivation.

In situations of high negative emotion, when it is harder to do the new behavior, you are likely to think, "I don't really care about that now". In this emotional state, you fail to see the consequences of your actions.

So, you need to get to a balanced place in your mind in which you are broadly aware of your real relationship goals and not just your painful emotion of the moment. It is important to practice now, so you can get there in situations of duress..

by and large, it sounds like you are mostly motivated by self defense (and fear), and thats where your actions and responses are coming from. it isnt serving you. you are more focused in the moment and reacting to it than the big picture and what you are broadly trying to achieve.

it takes practice to change our emotional response. but commitment and motivation to the goals you have will help you.

Anticipate Your Impulsiveness

Even if you are highly committed to stop making things worse in conflict situations; you still need to practice a host of skills needed to stop.

When we are in the middle of enduring a verbal attack from someone else; our own reaction feels impulsive; like an unpredictable and overbearing urge. However; realistically; a lot of these situations are quite predictable. How many times have you had that fight? How many times has your partner said that particular hurtful and provocative thing?

if you look at these blowups, your partner, between all of the vitriol, gives you some very important clues. that is a good motivation to really listen. it gives you something you can work with.

for example, this time, she told you she took down the relationship status because she didnt want people wishing her happy anniversary. given where she is at in all of this, it makes sense. when my dad died, i got a lot of support. it was and is deeply appreciated. but i tend to be very private in my grief. i felt obligated to respond to the outreach, when i just wanted to grieve. its possible that any given person i took a while to respond to might have taken it personally; understandable, but that would have been to misread the situation. if that person laid into me, or pressured me, that would not have helped.

she said she shouldn't have to live by my standards of a marriage... I was crying the whole time and she just kept screaming and saying horrible things about me

i dont normally like to compare people with bpd traits to toddlers. they arent, and it isnt a helpful comparison, at least not directly.

i think it will help though, if you visualize how you might have responded if this was coming from a three year old having a breakdown.

your wife has huge, long standing resentments. she is venting them at you. shes throwing the kitchen sink. it is helpful to really listen to them (and this takes some doing. none of this was really about accusing you of having an affair). its not very helpful to take them personally or to respond from a place of woundedness. shes blowing off steam.

think about it. right now, on some level, youd probably love to tear into her, tell her all the hell shes put you through, how selfish shes been, how shes made you feel. would it help you if she responded defensively or made it about her? or would it help to feel acknowledged?

I kept asking if we could talk at another time when she wasn't so angry.

this wont help her feel acknowledged.

it is one thing to step away when she gets completely out of line, when things have broken down beyond the point of no return, when shes abusive.

its another, when you contacted her first to let her have it for removing her relationship status, to shut her down (lets talk when you arent so angry) when shes letting off steam.

Rehearse a New emotional response

Once you have identified typical triggers; you can anticipate that your partner will do them again. The more aware you are of the triggers; the less potent they will be. In a way; every time you imagine your partner saying that trigger and imagine that you respond in a kind way (or; at least; not in kind); you are reconditioning the trigger because you are changing the cycle.

right now, you are easily triggered by many things. and shes in a vindictive mode, either making digs at soccer, or accusing you of random things, or totally blowing up at you. responding in the same old ways means the dysfunctional dynamic is continuing in the same old way.

The difference between this example and visualizing the negative consequences of giving in is that the former uses your motivation to avoid negative consequences, whereas this one uses your motivation to achieve positive ones. Both can work rather well in the moment.

visualize. she is just a person blowing off steam. if you do the same, its just two people blowing off steam.

lastly, remember, big picture: this is not about each individual conflict. this is about years of resentment exploding to the surface. if you can remain level (within reason) and listen, really listen, it can be an opportunity.

[Stillhopeful4]

Once Removed,

Thank you for taking the time to write all of that and help me.  I read through it all once...I'm going to go back and read it all again.  There is some good words of wisdom in there and I really want to learn all I can to do my part and try and help make this better, or at least less explosive.

Thank you so much!  ((HUGS)

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

it starts with commitment. whether it is to give up, or to reinvest, you want to make the best out of a tough situation. it means stopping the bleeding. acting constructively rather than destructively. choose a path, and put all of your eggs in that basket.

Ok, so I'm going to reinvest.  I'm going to try and stop the bleeding and not react to things.  In the meantime, she hasn't reached out since the blow up Monday night.  Do you think it's best I just lay low and wait for her to reach out to me?  Or should I initiate contact?  I don't want to push her away.  I also don't want too much time to go by and have her reach out in a week, on our anniversary, saying something like we need to file for divorce now and if she does that how do I respond?

SH4

[once removed]

what was the very last thing said?

what would you want to say?

[Stillhopeful4]

I sent the last text... it said "And no matter what you say to me I will always love you...I'm beating myself up bad enough for texting you earlier...I should have never texted  you and said anything...I miss you so much and it hurts knowing you don't feel the same...and that you just wanted to get out of there on Saturday.  I'll never put you in that situation again.  I'm sorry"


What would I say?  I don't know.  She says she doesn't want to hear what I have to say and doesn't care about what I want and this is about what she WANTS now.

Do I not inquire about our dog, he's been pretty sick.  If I don't say anything she will be mad I'm not asking about him and I don't care about him.  If I do ask she will say I'm using him just to talk to her.  I don't want to do the wrong thing and piss her off more. (as if that's even possible).

SH4

[once removed]

"And no matter what you say to me I will always love you...I'm beating myself up bad enough for texting you earlier...I should have never texted  you and said anything...I miss you so much and it hurts knowing you don't feel the same...and that you just wanted to get out of there on Saturday.  I'll never put you in that situation again.  I'm sorry"

okay.

if that was the last thing said, i would drop it; dont talk about the relationship, or feelings surrounding it.

Do I not inquire about our dog, he's been pretty sick.

i know this is a hard balance, and you dont want to do the wrong thing, but neither do you want to walk on eggshells.

dont ask about the dog out of fear of what she will or wont do. dont not ask about the dog out of fear of what she will or wont do.

think practically. whats going on with the dog? is it urgent? are you expecting to hear anything new? is it something you would normally do? can it wait?

i would consider all of those things.

[once removed]

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