New game

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

DH recently sent his summer possession schedule as was ordered by the court (the order BPD mom has yet to sign).  Then BPD mom responded with:  "A draft is not an Agreement. If you want an Agreement, we'll need a Final Order."  Seriously?  A week later, DSS15 still does not come over as he is supposed to so DH sends the following in response to her nonsense:  "Your attorney has had an order to sign for months; we are still supposed to follow what the judge ordered.  I would really appreciate it if you would ensure that the boys come over for their time with me.  I have not seen DSS15 since the first of March."

Our plan is to file a TRO due to emotional abuse after the next missed weekend.

Of course she does not respond to that email.  Then today DH gets a group text from DSS17 to both DH and BPDmom if they would please all three have a dinner together for his birthday as it would mean a lot to him.  DSS17 reported being very uncomfortable when DH and BPD mom were together for a graduation party.   AND this is totally not how he talks/texts.  Clearly, BPD mom wants some time with DH for some reason.  She is setting him up for yet another no-win situation.

[sanemom]

DH recently sent his summer possession schedule as was ordered by the court (the order BPD mom has yet to sign).  Then BPD mom responded with:  "A draft is not an Agreement. If you want an Agreement, we'll need a Final Order."  Seriously?  A week later, DSS15 still does not come over as he is supposed to so DH sends the following in response to her nonsense:  "Your attorney has had an order to sign for months; we are still supposed to follow what the judge ordered.  I would really appreciate it if you would ensure that the boys come over for their time with me.  I have not seen DSS15 since the first of March."

Our plan is to file a TRO due to emotional abuse after the next missed weekend.

Of course she does not respond to that email.  Then today DH gets a group text from DSS17 to both DH and BPDmom if they would please all three have a dinner together for his birthday as it would mean a lot to him.  DSS17 reported being very uncomfortable when DH and BPD mom were together for a graduation party.   AND this is totally not how he talks/texts.  Clearly, BPD mom wants some time with DH for some reason.  She is setting him up for yet another no-win situation.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm... .which parent is schedule to have birthdays this year?  If it is like my order then both children would be included for the year's birthdays?  And then next year both children would spend the time with the other parent, alternating years?

I figure that by now DH knows the best response is a polite No?  And if not DH's year then set aside time on his own parenting time.  Shared events are trouble.  For example, it's likely you would be excluded and DH would not have a supporter there for him.

Weddings and similar events are unavoidable but at least they don't have a parent isolated and most likely end up feeling cornered and manipulated.

[sanemom]

It is our weekend with the boys (supposedly--they haven't come since February for a weekend--we took a week break bc of the CPS drama, and they haven't come back since).  She is supposed to have them from 6-8 pm on the birthday night.  I am sure she will have them all weekend like she has done in the past.

I am sure she does not expect the TRO we will be filing the following week.  If she actually decides to let the boys come over for the weekend, it may weaken our TRO case... .but maybe not too bad.  She probably thinks our hands are completely tied since she won't sign the order.

[Thunderstruck]

I don't know what birthday could possibly be better for a 17 year old (turning 18?) than sitting at dinner with his fighting parents. 

Are you filing on behalf of the kids? Like a TRO of the kids against BPDmom?

[ForeverDad]

The time for gifting her repeated breaks is over.  No more explaining the order.  Maybe just "Follow the schedule the court has set."  Stick strictly to the schedule the court expects the parents to follow.  No endless back and forth because it hasn't ever worked.  Then depending on how the weekend goes, edit the paperwork and DH proceeds with the TRO filing.

Communication with the boys should be communication with the boys.  Communication with the Ex should be communication with the Ex.  Mixing the two won't work either, though Ex does want the parental & co-parenting communication blended since then she can weaken boundaries.

[Sparkleher]

What is a TRO? New here.

[Thunderstruck]

What is a TRO? New here.

Temporary Restraining Order. There's a "Glossary" tab up above that helps with abbreviations, I know it's hard to get them all straight at first. 

[sanemom]

The time for gifting her repeated breaks is over.  No more explaining the order.  Maybe just "Follow the schedule the court has set."  Stick strictly to the schedule the court expects the parents to follow.  No endless back and forth because it hasn't ever worked.  Then depending on how the weekend goes, edit the paperwork and DH proceeds with the TRO filing.

Communication with the boys should be communication with the boys.  Communication with the Ex should be communication with the Ex.  Mixing the two won't work either, though Ex does want the parental & co-parenting communication blended since then she can weaken boundaries.

I think DH is just going to respond to the group text saying he plans to honor the court order, and that means she is supposed to have DSS17 on his birthday from 6-8, and he will do something with him after.  The sad thing is that DSS17 was all about this group father-son camping trip on his birthday, but clearly he is not going to do that now.  She robs them of so much, and it is like they don't even realize it.

We have requested that she follow the order for over a month--it hasn't happened yet, and I doubt she will send the boys this weekend either.  We will file on behalf of the boys citing emotional abuse.  They haven't attended the court ordered therapy since the end of February, but the therapist was shocked at what she heard that day so I am hoping she will write an affidavit as to what they said and the endless games BPD mom has played with therapy.

[sanemom]

I will say that BPD mom seems to have this thing where she wants to spend time with my DH every so often... .it is just ick, and I am not sure what she gets out of the request.  BUT she has recently broken up with her boyfriend so maybe she is hoping for some ego strokes?

Last time she broke up with a boyfriend a few years ago, she told the kids that DH wanted her again because she was skinny then (she goes up and down)... .it was such a weird story that even the kids thought it odd (and they usually seem to believe everything she says).

[david]

Don't know if this would work for your situation. My ex used to say the boys didn't want to see me when they were younger. We only communicate through email and I would say that I will pick the boys up following the court order. If ex didn't let them out of her place I would call the police. This way I would get a police report showing I attempted to pick the boys up and she refused. Did that two times and I never had a problem after that. They were 4 and 9 at the time.

[ugghh]

Apparently BPD mom thinks that the court order is a suggestion or somehow not valid unless she signs it?  The only signature needed is that of the judge. 

[david]

My ex actually tried to get me evicted from our house in 2007. The judge denied it. The next morning she showed up. Three police cars showed up with her. I was standing in the driveway and they told me I had ten minutes to vacate the premises. They had the petition she filed and it was NOT signed by a judge. I explained it had to be signed but ex convinced them no signature was required. I called my atty right in front of the police, explained what was happening, and handed the phone to the police officer. After he got off the phone he explained to ex what the situation was. She simply said she was sorry for the misunderstanding.

Another time she convinced the school our boys were going to that I was not allowed to pick up the children there without her expressed consent. The first time I went to pick them up at school I had our current order with me suspecting she would try something. The school explained I was not allowed to pick them up and I handed them the court order and told them to send it to their legal department. I left with the boys about 15 minutes later.

I notice my ex will try anything once and see if it works. Setting the boundary right away helps eliminate further problems.

[sanemom]

DSS17 seems to realize that DH may be going to court soon since DSS15 won't come.  DSS15 says he doesn't want to come over at all.

The CPS investigator had to talk with us before closing the case--she tried to close it without interviewing us, but her supervisor wouldn't let her.  So she met with us at our attorney's office today, and she basically told us that it sounded like the mom is emotionally abusing the boys AND she offered to testify at a TRO hearing.  Our attorney wants to wait to file the TRO until we get the official letter--hope it gets here soon.  I am kind of worried she will start behaving again just before we file and muddy the waters... .

[david]

Waiting for the official letter sounds like the best plan. Once you have that in writing it can't be changed. Having a CPS investigator testify should be very helpful. Judges like when "professionals" make the decision for them.

If everything goes as it appears to be going, do you have a plan for what you are seeking ? Have it spelled out so the judge has something to work with. Every time I went to court with details of what I was looking for and why I always got it.

One judge ordered both of us to write out what we were seeking and gave us two weeks. I spelled out 14 things and ex handed in a three page paper saying it is all my fault. The judge just copied my points exactly as I had written them and that became the major part of our custody order. Ex would have to go back to court to change it and she would have to have a reason. Every point has reduced the chaos and changing it would only take things backwards.

[Thunderstruck]

DSS17 seems to realize that DH may be going to court soon since DSS15 won't come.  DSS15 says he doesn't want to come over at all.

The CPS investigator had to talk with us before closing the case--she tried to close it without interviewing us, but her supervisor wouldn't let her.  So she met with us at our attorney's office today, and she basically told us that it sounded like the mom is emotionally abusing the boys AND she offered to testify at a TRO hearing.  Our attorney wants to wait to file the TRO until we get the official letter--hope it gets here soon.  I am kind of worried she will start behaving again just before we file and muddy the waters... .

That sounds good. Even if she starts behaving, I wouldn't worry about it. You have the report and the testimony. A few days of behaving can't negate months of not. And, if all else fails... .at least you'll get the dang order signed. 

[sanemom]

One thing I forgot to mention that I thought was odd... .at the beginning of our interview, the investigator said that we seem to have a lot of calls directed at us (only two that I know of), and she wants to see what she can do to get that to stop.  At the time I thought it meant she was going to get us on some kind of corrective plan (because I thought we were in trouble or something... .), but clearly with her support of us, that is not the case.  So how could she possibly stop BPD mom from reporting?

She was already aware there was PA involved and that we were unhappy with the previous investigators (maybe my complaint letter to the senator made it in the file?).  She admitted to us that CPS often tries to make people guilty.  Later, I mentioned to my DD17 that she asked about the other investigators, and then my DD17 told me that she let the current investigator know what she thought of the previous investigators.  I had no idea until last night (bc we never talked about it), but DD17 told her that the previous investigators were trying to make her feel that the situation was more serious than it was and trying to get her to answer questions in ways that would support what they were thinking so she was ticked off--she let this investigator know that... ..

[david]

My ex ran away in 2007. Our boys were 5 and 9 at the time. Ex was able to manipulate the boys and , they said nothing negative about me, they spoke favorably of their mom. I suspect she was in full MOTY mood they weeks before our first custody eval. We had another eval when they were 10 and 14. She couldn't do what she did before since the boys were older and better able to speak for themselves.

Our second to the last meeting with the evaluator went in direction I never expected. The evaluator had already talked to both boys. He said he wanted to talk about the things that concerned him when talking to each of the boys. He talked to them separately. He started with talking to ex. The thing that stood out the most for me was that the evaluator asked each boys to describe a day with their mom and a day with their dad. He pointed out that when they talked about their mom's house they never mentioned anything about her. It was pretty much what they had kind of said to me numerous times. It made much more of an impact on me hearing it from an outside observer. It also made an impression on ex because she threatened the evaluator with legal action. I just sat there and didn't say a thing. The entire meeting was directed towards ex. I felt like jumping up and dancing because I knew the eval got it.

I think as the kids get older they have a better handle on expressing themselves. If you have a good evaluator or other professional they can coax it out of them.

I recall a few weeks ago, not sure if it was you or someone else, and someone brought up that they had a parent coordinator or counselor of some sort involved. It was suggested that all actions involving CPS go through the counselor and he/she would decide if it warranted further action. It put a stop to the constant harassment through CPS since the allegations were unfounded to begin with. Having that in writing would help in court if someone tried to bypass that set up.

[david]

Also, asking the court for supervised visitation or some kind of consequences for bad behavior may be needed. That needs to be thought about and presented as what you think is best for the kids. Ex having court ordered counseling and if she does not attend she is not allowed anything but supervised visitation or outright denial of visitation. Maybe even some kind of reunification therapy for your family and the kids. Presenting something like that may show the court that you are not trying to punish their mom. Just thinking out loud.

[Thunderstruck]

Also, asking the court for supervised visitation or some kind of consequences for bad behavior may be needed. That needs to be thought about and presented as what you think is best for the kids. Ex having court ordered counseling and if she does not attend she is not allowed anything but supervised visitation or outright denial of visitation. Maybe even some kind of reunification therapy for your family and the kids. Presenting something like that may show the court that you are not trying to punish their mom. Just thinking out loud.

I think you should spell that out in the TRO (if you aren't already doing so). Start with a few weeks (or maybe this whole summer?) of DSS15 not having contact with BPDmom. Then supervised. Then spell out how she can "earn" alone time back (therapy, no alienation, etc).

[sanemom]

I spoke with our attorney briefly today... .he is hoping that the CPS investigator will give us the letter next week.  i asked what the investigator meant by "making sure no more allegations are filed", and he said that she was hinting at him to file an injunction against BPD mom. 

Meanwhile, DSS15 is still refusing to come over.  The judge said that if the boys didn't have a better relationship with their dad in six months, that he was blaming BPD mom and would change custody.  Let's see if that really happens... .wonder if DSS15 forgot that the judge said that (he told the boys he would check in with them in six months to make sure that their relationship with their dad was better).

It is almost as if BPD mom has selective memory... .or she thinks that because DSS15 doesn't want to come over, that the judge will not make him.  The judge DID tell DSS17 that he could come and go as he pleased, and DSS15 has said that he wants that power, too, so he never has to come.

It is sad--less than two months ago, he told his dad that he needed to see him more.  Now he has completely forgotten all of that.   

[bravhart1]

In our custody order, it states that BPDm can not file CPS charges, or make any physical or mental abuse accusation on behalf of SD without first checking with her therapist, who will judge the merit of the accusation and then run it by SD's therapist and if they agree it sounds likely or reasonable she can file. So far almost two years later, she has not had anything "get through".

I think this should be standard language for any custody plan involving a PD'd person. They will abuse the system ad nauseum (as sane mom will attest) otherwise.

I really hope that getting back in front of the judge pisses him off so much that he really socks it to your manipulative BPDm. Hang in there  sanemom.

And maybe it goes without saying but, there would be no way in hell my ex would risk sitting down at a dinner with exBpdM. Any number of ridiculous accusations would come from such a meeting. Last year his ex wanted him to meet with the child's therapist together, and he said no, it would not be productive. She made a BIG deal about it to CE, saying this showed he was not willing to even try to co parent. It was the only thing CE gave any credence to, but when he asked DH, H explained that she had made so many false accusations in the past, that even passing her in a hallway felt like a set up and he would not fall for any of it again. He even showed CE how she had accused the therapist they saw years ago when they first separated of verbal abuse, and letting him verbally abuse her in front of therapist. When he saw that, he agreed she was too manipulative to be trusted.

[sanemom]

Bravheart, how does that work in real life?  I mean, if she calls CPS without jumping through the other hoops, do you just show CPS the court order?

I am hoping the judge will act and only give supervised visits to DSS15 for a period of time... .I am trying to figure out what we should ask for really.  I mean, DSS15 is REFUSING to come over at all... .if he is forced, how awkward would that be?  Last time when the judge told him he had to have a relationship with his dad, he was actually relieved, and all was well.  But I wonder if she is more into his head this time than she was last time... .and if he will be reasonable at first or if he is too far gone.  It is amazing how much more alienating she has done now that she has actually been labeled an alienator by the courts.

If not, at the very least, the TRO forces her attorney to come to court and sign the stupid order.

[Thunderstruck]

 I mean, DSS15 is REFUSING to come over at all... .if he is forced, how awkward would that be?

Stuff like that infuriates me. uBPDbm claims that SD11 "refuses" to call DH... ."I can't force her to call". Um, yes you can! You're the parent! Who's in charge over there?

Reality is that she doesn't want SD11 to call. Otherwise she would just pick up the phone, dial DH, and hand the phone over to SD (which is what we do every night, trust me... .it's not that difficult).

Yes, a 15 year old not following the court order isn't going to get any negative consequences... .and BPDmom can pretend like she has no control over him. "I can't force him to go over there". Then why on earth should you be the primary parent, if you can't "force" him to do things he doesn't want to do? What about cleaning his room, or doing homework, or going to school?

[sanemom]

 I mean, DSS15 is REFUSING to come over at all... .if he is forced, how awkward would that be?

Yes, a 15 year old not following the court order isn't going to get any negative consequences... .and BPDmom can pretend like she has no control over him. "I can't force him to go over there". Then why on earth should you be the primary parent, if you can't "force" him to do things he doesn't want to do? What about cleaning his room, or doing homework, or going to school?

Oh, I like that!  I DO force my DD17 to see her dad when she doesn't want to (he is mentally ill, and she gets tired of his melodrama)... .amazing how "you don't go, I get your cell phone" works.   

[ForeverDad]

Last time when the judge told him he had to have a relationship with his dad, he was actually relieved, and all was well.

SD15 wasn't able to stand up to her alone.  And of course DH has been no 'authority' to her ever.  So yes, the court order was a relief then because that was an authority she couldn't trash.  This time around she's gone further, somehow she's neutralized the court's authority in his mind.  And delayed signing which risks delaying proactive resolution in the case.

Frankly, if the judge and lawyers think signing a piece of paper is going to make everything hunky dory and they just make a new hearing date a few months out again to look for improvements, it just gives her even more time to reinforce her alienation since all that happened was a wet noodle tongue lashing that made her double down her efforts.

[bravhart1]

In real life if she did call CPS she would be in contempt of the order and subject to sanctions and or court penalties, like public service hours, additional counseling about her specific issue etc. it was made clear so she doesn't do.

Frankly I would love to see her picking up garbage on the side of the road. (Today's been especially tough)

[NorthernGirl]

Frankly I would love to see her picking up garbage on the side of the road. (Today's been especially tough)

That made me laugh out loud. The garbage part  not the tough day part  :'(  Had a vision of a certain someone in an orange jumpsuit.