Things are getting more difficult

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone,

Right now I'm several months in my devorce with my stbEx. Things are getting more difficult, because she is using our son more and more as a tool in our divorce. He doesn't feel save with her, when she is hearing him out after he has been with me. She let him say horrible things about me and my family. I can hear that he doesn't want to answer, but she keeps asking him questions until he gives the answer she wants. She is recording these things, so that is how I can hear that. My son is almost five years old.

After she has the recordings she puts them in a WhatsApp message to me, with all kinds of accusations. To me, that I'm mentally abusing him, my mother would sexsually abuse him, my father would encourage him to be aggresive and fight. All of the accusations are false, because when he is with me, I'm always close to him. I see everything that happens and the things she says doesn't happen.

Everytime my son is with me, I can see how he is hurt. When I give him icecream he says to me, that we most not tell his mother. Because she would be angry than. When we walk out of the house of my parents he says to me that we must not say to his mother that he has seen his grandparents. The rules she enforces are more every week.

I feel aweful that I can't protect him from this. I try to. Yesterday I met with my lawyer. She is going to send a letter to my wifes laywer that she must stop with using our son as a tool. She must stop with putting our son between us. Evidents will be included. When her behaviour will not change or come back, I wil go for being de headparent, and my wife must get visitation rights. Not more.

I really think this is the best way to go, but it also scares me. Lately she is becoming more agressive. Almost never there are some good days. The last two good days are two and a half weeks ago. The problem is, she was really nice in those two days. I loved her again within minutes.

I know, it is a marathon not a sprint. But it is exhausting.

Thanks for listening.

Greetings,

LovingDad

[LovingDad]

Hi everyone,

Right now I'm several months in my devorce with my stbEx. Things are getting more difficult, because she is using our son more and more as a tool in our divorce. He doesn't feel save with her, when she is hearing him out after he has been with me. She let him say horrible things about me and my family. I can hear that he doesn't want to answer, but she keeps asking him questions until he gives the answer she wants. She is recording these things, so that is how I can hear that. My son is almost five years old.

After she has the recordings she puts them in a WhatsApp message to me, with all kinds of accusations. To me, that I'm mentally abusing him, my mother would sexsually abuse him, my father would encourage him to be aggresive and fight. All of the accusations are false, because when he is with me, I'm always close to him. I see everything that happens and the things she says doesn't happen.

Everytime my son is with me, I can see how he is hurt. When I give him icecream he says to me, that we most not tell his mother. Because she would be angry than. When we walk out of the house of my parents he says to me that we must not say to his mother that he has seen his grandparents. The rules she enforces are more every week.

I feel aweful that I can't protect him from this. I try to. Yesterday I met with my lawyer. She is going to send a letter to my wifes laywer that she must stop with using our son as a tool. She must stop with putting our son between us. Evidents will be included. When her behaviour will not change or come back, I wil go for being de headparent, and my wife must get visitation rights. Not more.

I really think this is the best way to go, but it also scares me. Lately she is becoming more agressive. Almost never there are some good days. The last two good days are two and a half weeks ago. The problem is, she was really nice in those two days. I loved her again within minutes.

I know, it is a marathon not a sprint. But it is exhausting.

Thanks for listening.

Greetings,

LovingDad

[worriedStepmom]

It's so hard to see your child be mentally abused in that way.

It sounds as if he trusts you, which is great.   Help him find words for his feelings (is he scared of mom?  worried that she'll be upset? Nervous because he doesn't know what to expect?  Confused because mom's reaction is out of the ordinary?)

Is there any chance of getting him into therapy?

[kells76]

So sorry about what your stbX is choosing to do. You're right to recognize how unhealthy it is for a parent to coach a kid into badmouthing family.

It sounds like you've forwarded the WhatsApp messages to your L, yes? Good job being proactive there. It may seem that the legal route is the only way to go, but I want to suggest that it's one part of a multi-pronged approach.

WorriedStepmom had some good advice about what to do in parallel with the legal action -- helping your son find words for his feelings.

So, what your son's mom is doing is NOT validating your son. She's perhaps getting some emotional relief by having Son express how SHE feels. Your son likely isn't getting his feelings heard or cared about by Mom. That's where you step in.

It's tempting to think that the way to validate a kid is to have them "get the facts straight" or to "not feel so bad" or "just get over what Mom says" or "have the right feelings". For example, Son tells you "Mommy will be mad if she knows we got ice cream". The "average parenting" move is to say something like "That's not true! Your mom loves you very much. She just shouldn't feel mad about ice cream. Now, cheer up, buddy!"

We aren't in "average parenting" situations, though. It will be so important for your son's emotional health, and your relationship with him, to practice validation. OK, so Son says Mommy will be mad about the ice cream. You: "How are you feeling about that, buddy?"

Your son might be a little young for no specific direction on feelings, so you can think about how it would work to say something like "Oh wow, if I heard that, I might feel (sad, scared, confused)... .how are you doing, bud?"

Almost 5 years old should be old enough for therapy or a counselor -- probably play therapy or a family counseling situation. Not because there's anything "wrong" with him or you, but as an arena where he (and you) can learn what it feels like to be really listened to -- so he can have an experience, not only with you, but with someone else trusted, of what a healthy listening relationship is like. As he grows, he will have that experience to draw on and compare to how things go with Mom -- instead of only knowing as "normal" Mom's unhealthy coaching.

Please keep us posted on how you guys are doing!

kells76

[scraps66]

I would think the court would have a serious issue with a parent coerscing a child to speak ill of the other parent while being recorded.  It's like the alienator documenting the alienating behavior.

[ForeverDad]

In general, courts and the associated professionals don't like children being recorded.  However, that won't stop his mother from coaching him to repeat absurd allegations about you or your family.  My ex did that, mostly he didn't know how to lie since he was just 3 to 5 years old.

One time she knew she really messed up.  She had raged at the pediatrician's staff because they let me make an appointment.  At the time it was the temp order during the divorce case and she was temp custodial parent.  (Yes, my court defaulted to mother taking charge.  All it took was one question from the magistrate, what are the work schedules?  No inquiry about parenting history or anything else.  With questions like that it's no wonder dads get shortchanged.)  Well, the pediatrician put in the medical record he would fire her.  The letter sent to her was neutral, just said they were "withdrawing services" to our son.

So she felt she had to make me look worse than her.  Within days she had him down at the children's hospital and for the first time he parroted her abuse claims.  CPS got involved but eventually it was closed as 'unsubstantiated'.  So I was faced with the dilemma, how to enlighten a kid in kindergarten about the problems of lying.  I found a Clifford the Big Red Dog book, "T-Bone Tells the Truth".  It sure helped him learn that even little fibs can have an impact on others.

I agree with the others, your child would benefit with counseling.  However, and this is a big one, you must ensure that an experienced professional is selected.  Yes, probably costs are reduced if "in network" for insurance purposes, but the priority is that you don't let the disordered parent pick a gullible, inexperienced counselor.  Not all dads are deadbeats and abusers, but you can be sure your ex will claim that about you.  And she will be so emotionally compelling that virtually anyone would feel inclined to side with her, even without meeting you.  Obviously, that's not professional but you can't let your ex do the picking.

One way is to use a method that the court will likely agree is a fantastic idea.  (Remember, court is the Real Authority, not your ex.)  Just be the first with this approach:  You build a short list of highly recommended professionals specializing in counseling children who have both insight and experience with high conflict people, in network too.  Then your ex gets to select from that most excellent short list.  She may squawk and complain she doesn't like any of them but court would see this as a very fair approach involving both parents.  The last thing you want is her to pick compliant counselors or be firing them as soon as they don't agree with her demands and perceptions.

Edit:  Have you read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak?  He related a story where one grandparent was being alienated.  The little girl found a novel way to sneak a clue to the grandparent.  She hugged and whispered, "whatever I say, I mean the opposite."  Then she pulled away and started yelling at gparent, all to get out of a tight spot with her disordered parent.

Another example:  A member here, david, reported how he handled his boys arriving claiming he was a bad dad and dangerous.  So he acted like a monster and grinning chased them around.  They loved it and had a great time.  That was how he defused the blaming, he turned it into a game of sorts.

[david]

The fact that he is expressing his concerns to you about his mom finding out is a positive since that means he trusts you. Make sure you keep that trust. I tried coparenting in the beginning but ex twisted things around and tried to use anything she could against me. Our boys kind of shut down for a while and shared nothing. Slowly they tested me. I never betrayed their confidence after that. Eventually they realized they could trust me and opened up. I parallel parent and share little information with her. I don't like it but it is the only thing I found that works.

[Mutt]

I really think this is the best way to go, but it also scares me. Lately she is becoming more agressive.

You have good advise so I don’t want to repeat what others have said it’s scary for you but your S5 is too young to have his own voice he needs you. Her erratic behaviour getting worse means that you’re not going through the regular routine you’re doing things that she doesn’t like which are good things ( pursuing this with an L and the L telling her to stop ) You said that it’s nit a sprint it’s a marathon you’re ex can’t see the big picture and has these reactions that will eventually subside you’ll have to ride them out. I know that it’s not easy and it’s exhausting behaviour you’re doing the right things keep doing them.

[zachira]

Please learn everything you can about parent alienation and make sure you work with a lawyer that understands parent alienation.

[LovingDad]

Hi all,

Thanks for reading my post and all the advise you are giving me. What you always see happens. Since I have posted it yesterday, she is really nice. Sending me pictures en little movies of my son on the fair. She also sends me recorded messages where my son is enthousiastic and feels good.

This doesn't mean I'm gonna change my strategy, but the feelings towards her are getting mixed up again. After two weeks we now finally came to an agreement on how we gonna pay the painter for painting our home. So it keeps the value when we are going to sell it. For me this breaktreu comms out of the blue.

My lawyer send me her proposal on the letter and evidence she wants to send to the lawyer of my wife. Tonight or tomorrow morning I have to decide if it is the way I want it. This afternoon a childcare organisation is calling me back, because they have spoken to a behavioral expert. After that I have to talk to my parents because my lawyer also wants to use an e-mail my mother-in-law had send to my mother. My mother-in-law probably also had BPD.

The way I have to talk to my son about this, according to the advice on this webpage, is great. I'm sure I will use that. I also going to make a list of therapists, so when he can get him in therapy I'm prepared.

Thanks all.

Greetings,

Loving Dad