Obligatory First Post

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi there.
I guess I'm here for the same reason as hundreds/thousands before. My wife survived a horrific childhood, she was what I call overly emotional when we were dating but when we were engaged I noticed some troubling patterns which got far worse when we had our child. The past 9-10 years has been kind of horrific. Spent a lot of time hoping to die, only this year learning I have bipolar and ADHD - I get therapy and meds, so I'm doing a lot better. I also have horrible anger issues that I'm trying to keep sated with grounding techniques.

She is not.  Like many borderlines, she mistrusts conventional medicine- she often says my meds aren't helping me and it's just in my head- which can definitely mess with me. While seeking help has been primarily been to help me- it's also to show her that things can get better. She has at least acknowledged I'm getting better. Our son has ADHD and has done far better in school since he's been getting his medicine= thankfully she's not totally at a point where she'd keep our child away from modern medicine.

Despite her acknowledgements of my improvements, like all borderlines she will immediately take that back if she's set off.

I've decided continuing to improve myself, keeping her at distance and continuing to research BPD is the best method presently.
Talked to a therapist, my psychiatrist and even her best friend who is an LPC- it's starting to feel like I'm caring for her as a patient and not my wife. At some point I'll have to bring this up to her, as she doesn't even know I've been researching BPD. Our son is only 7 and already I'm seeing troubling behavior- probably learned from both of us.

I have no clue how to introduce any of this but I hope I can soon convince her. There are times when I think "I'm not going to help her with this, she's said and done too many things to me that she deserves to be this way for the rest of her miserable life", other days I want to help her because it's heartbreaking to know her mind is working like this everyday, all the time. I've occasionally considered having her involuntary committed because I feel I sufficient proof to do so- but based on research it doesn't appear to work that well and I genuinely think if it didn't "take" I'd be in a LOT of danger.

Hod do you introduce the idea to someone that they're mentally ill?

[mcgoggles]

Hi there.
I guess I'm here for the same reason as hundreds/thousands before. My wife survived a horrific childhood, she was what I call overly emotional when we were dating but when we were engaged I noticed some troubling patterns which got far worse when we had our child. The past 9-10 years has been kind of horrific. Spent a lot of time hoping to die, only this year learning I have bipolar and ADHD - I get therapy and meds, so I'm doing a lot better. I also have horrible anger issues that I'm trying to keep sated with grounding techniques.

She is not.  Like many borderlines, she mistrusts conventional medicine- she often says my meds aren't helping me and it's just in my head- which can definitely mess with me. While seeking help has been primarily been to help me- it's also to show her that things can get better. She has at least acknowledged I'm getting better. Our son has ADHD and has done far better in school since he's been getting his medicine= thankfully she's not totally at a point where she'd keep our child away from modern medicine.

Despite her acknowledgements of my improvements, like all borderlines she will immediately take that back if she's set off.

I've decided continuing to improve myself, keeping her at distance and continuing to research BPD is the best method presently.
Talked to a therapist, my psychiatrist and even her best friend who is an LPC- it's starting to feel like I'm caring for her as a patient and not my wife. At some point I'll have to bring this up to her, as she doesn't even know I've been researching BPD. Our son is only 7 and already I'm seeing troubling behavior- probably learned from both of us.

I have no clue how to introduce any of this but I hope I can soon convince her. There are times when I think "I'm not going to help her with this, she's said and done too many things to me that she deserves to be this way for the rest of her miserable life", other days I want to help her because it's heartbreaking to know her mind is working like this everyday, all the time. I've occasionally considered having her involuntary committed because I feel I sufficient proof to do so- but based on research it doesn't appear to work that well and I genuinely think if it didn't "take" I'd be in a LOT of danger.

Hod do you introduce the idea to someone that they're mentally ill?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

Welcome to BPD family.    This is a group of people who understand the very unique challenges that come with having a partner who is on the BPD spectrum.

I want to recognize and congratulate you on all the hard work you have done for yourself.   I know that wasn't easy and I am impressed with your bravery.

I'm am going to jump in to the deep end.    I suspect that it will take a while to work through multiple perspectives.

People who are organized on the borderline level spend a frantic and frenzied amount of energy and effort protecting their fragile sense of self and their harmfully intense chaotic emotions.

You might have noticed that yourself.  Chances are your spouse has a great deal of difficulty accepting responsibility but instead views their emotions and behavior as being caused by external people or events.

Make sense?

Introducing the idea of a serious mental illness is guaranteed to create a large emotional dysregulation.    What is suggested is to consider introducing the topic of a troublesome behavior instead.

Instead of 'I think you might have BPD',  something more like 'Would you feel less anxious/depressed about things if you got some support of your very own?"

Can you see the difference in approaches?

What do you think so far?   Are we heading down the right road?

[Rev]

Hey McGoggles,

Not going to say much except three things:

1) Welcome. Sorry for what you are living through. Happy you found us.

2) Let me also add my congratulations for the hard work you are putting in.

3)  You are in great hands with Ducks. I know from personal experience.

Hang in there.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

Welcome to BPD family.    This is a group of people who understand the very unique challenges that come with having a partner who is on the BPD spectrum.

I want to recognize and congratulate you on all the hard work you have done for yourself.   I know that wasn't easy and I am impressed with your bravery.

I'm am going to jump in to the deep end.    I suspect that it will take a while to work through multiple perspectives.

People who are organized on the borderline level spend a frantic and frenzied amount of energy and effort protecting their fragile sense of self and their harmfully intense chaotic emotions.

You might have noticed that yourself.  Chances are your spouse has a great deal of difficulty accepting responsibility but instead views their emotions and behavior as being caused by external people or events.

Make sense?

Introducing the idea of a serious mental illness is guaranteed to create a large emotional dysregulation.    What is suggested is to consider introducing the topic of a troublesome behavior instead.

Instead of 'I think you might have BPD',  something more like 'Would you feel less anxious/depressed about things if you got some support of your very own?"

Can you see the difference in approaches?

What do you think so far?   Are we heading down the right road?

Yes, I agree this is the best method. It's going to be hard to show some restraint, as I'm incredibly angry at her. I very much love her. I want her to be able to do the things she loves and to be with our child. Unfortunately because of the things she's said, the things she's done and the behavior she's passed on to our child; regardless of how much better she gets I'm very likely to never forgive her. I understand this is a mood disorder that isn't totally on her, but I've decided I don't care; I simply want to help her get past this. A less admirable part of my desire to get her better is so she's in a state where I can give her a small taste of the coldness, malice and emotional starvation she's given out. I don't always feel like this, but unless I have adequate time to ground myself my thoughts either revolve around this or suicidal ideation. When she splits to her cruel side my meds aren't always enough.
Also: our present situation is sleeping in two separate rooms, and I haven't hugged her in months. Having sought therapy I know what my triggers are and her splitting has become one of them. I ensure she's cared for and I give her words of encourage when we're both in a good headspace but for the foreseeable future I'm keeping her at arm's length.
Additionally: I was specifically in one of those bad headspaces when I typed the above paragraph. I'm better now, but you can see why I want to repair this.

[yellowbutterfly]

Just wanted to say welcome and that you should be proud of all the work you’ve been doing for yourself. I’m a newbie but the sage advice I’ve found here is wonderful!

[babyducks]

thanks for the reply mcgoggles.  I appreciate it.

I understand the resentment and frustration from finding ourselves in a relationship that turns out to be not at all what we thought it would be.    This is very hard stuff to cope with.     Its okay to feel those feelings.    and it is especially wise to know that you don't need to act on them right now.

for me I had to grieve the relationship I thought I had found.   It was a huge gut wrenching loss to realize that the person I thought was the absolute perfect person for me was, in fact, not.

and I too found the devaluation and attacks very hard to bear.   they didn't make me so much angry as terribly terribly hurt.  the person who should be 'safest' for me was abusive to me.    that was an odd dynamic to try and understand, not one I was prepared for at all.   

it is very difficult to not recoil in some way when we are emotionally and verbally abused.

would it be helpful to talk about some techniques to disengage from the abuse without taking it on board?

I think restraint is the approach for now when it comes to discussing your wife's mental health.    After all this is huge undertaking.    Telling someone you think they have a serious mental health disorder is no simple thing.   It's an enormous task and complicated with both of your emotions.   that's unavoidable.    you both have a lot invested in this relationship.

'ducks

[chemist52]

Hi Mcgoggles,

As some have stated before this is a great place to share and listen to those who have experienced what you have. You are not alone in this process. I, and several others have experienced the feelings of wishing we could help and wanting to leave everything behind. I am glad you have gotten treatment and it has been working. You deserve happiness and stability. I am also glad she has acknowledged your improvements, and I hope you continue that even if she does not seek help. 

 
For BPD, it is a combination of the right medication, therapy, and coping techniques in order for successful treatment. Incorrect medication and treatment have probably made her feel like nothing is working. For instance, my ex has undiagnosed BPD yet has been treated like he has bipolar 2. While it has helped with mood, it does not help the abandonment, paranoia, distorted thinking, impulse control, and unstable work/relationships. Bipolar swings are a Ferris wheel; borderline swings are roller coaster. 

Researching and understanding BPD helps not only her, but you. It helps absolve you of any guilt she tried to accuse you of. Understanding what they think, when they think it, and why they think that way can help better prepare yourself to handle her swings in the future. BPD is predictably unpredictable. Distance is also great. It does not mean you stop loving or caring about them. It is about protecting yourself. None of this was your fault, and you have done nothing to deserve this. It takes a person with unwavering patience and unconditional love to date someone with BPD; especially when it is not treated. They're all right. You are not her doctor or therapist, but her partner. You are NOT responsible to diagnose, treat and heal her. That comes from professionals and herself. As partners, we take on so much of their pain because we love them and hate to see them suffer. I would not be the one to introduce it to her, as she might deny or spin it back on you. It has to come from a third party or professional. For those with BPD, feelings are the facts. So, you could point out 45 reasons why their emotions are not lining up with reality, and them still not believe you. But I hope she gets treatment soon for her and your family, as the cycle has to stop with her and not continue with your son. That is another reason I would not advise you being the one to tell her. I would not want your son being poisoned against you, or you become devalued again. It can feel like dating two people in the same body, one who loves you, and the other who will do anything to stop them from loving you. It can also feel like watching your loved one die and having them come back as someone you do not recognize.

I hope this helps you on your healing journey, and that everything works out the way you want it to.

[mcgoggles]

Update: My hand has been forced. She's become very upset that I'm keeping distant, she demanded to know why.
any other answer I would have given her would have likely lead to paranoia so I just flat-out said I'm protecting myself. I made it clear I'm not mad at her as I once was, but also that she's been terrified of everything for a very long time. She has hallucinations at night and occasionally will burst into tears if a loud noise surprises her.
I stood my ground. I told her I loved her and that I'd provide for her but only she can make the decision to seek help. I asked her to consider a life where she wasn't so angry, or scared. I told her unless she at lest CONSIDERS seeking help I can only love her from the next room. These are the boundaries I've set. She has virtually no love for herself. She doesn't exercise, she doesn't take care of herself. She doesn't brush her teeth or eat any vegetable. She has been intentionally dying very slowly. When I'm not furious at the thought of her I'm extremely depressed at the thought of her.

[babyducks]

mcgoggles,

its sounds like you handled a very difficult conversation the best anyone could.   no one does this perfectly.    it's important to maintain our own composure, and find a way to convey our own truth.

there is a communication technique that we talk about here.   it's called SET.

Support.  Empathy.   Truth.

the technique is to use all three portions in any message we send.   if I were to use a very simple example it would look something like this:   mcgoogles, you've done such good work with this conversation.  (support)   I know how nerve wracking and difficult these can be.  (empathy)   I think you might consider XYZ for your next step.  (truth)   

make sense?

She has hallucinations at night and occasionally will burst into tears if a loud noise surprises her.

hallucinations sound worrisome.   what do you think is happening there?

I stood my ground. I told her I loved her and that I'd provide for her but only she can make the decision to seek help. I asked her to consider a life where she wasn't so angry, or scared. I told her unless she at lest CONSIDERS seeking help I can only love her from the next room.

nicely done.    very good to point out that it's her decision to seek help.    how did she respond to this?   how is the atmosphere between you now?

what do you think your next step is now that you have drawn this boundary?   would you be willing to help set up her first appointment to see someone.    that's something to consider.    you could, if you want, pick two mental health professionals and leave the contact information for her.   it would be important to pick two.   that way she has a choice but isn't paralyzed by hundreds of names on a website someplace.

what do you think?

'ducks

[SaltyDawg]

babyducks, has a very good point, that I would like to add my two cents to this conversation.

would you be willing to help set up her first appointment to see someone.    that's something to consider.    you could, if you want, pick two mental health professionals and leave the contact information for her.   it would be important to pick two.   that way she has a choice but isn't paralyzed by hundreds of names on a website someplace.

If you are willing to do this, find ones that know how to handle BPD and have experience with it.  If this is not possible for you in your location, then try finding one that deals with 'high conflict' relationships.

[mcgoggles]

@babyducks and @SalyDawg
Yes, I'd be more than willing- but I need to get her to the point where she can remotely consider it. She's been angry with me for the past 2 weeks, so now won't be the time.
During these phases I have little communication with her. I block her phone number and her accounts on social media. This seems harsh and callous but the way I see it, I'm not sacrificing my mental health or feelings for hers at this point. She also takes it upon herself to clean the house and do the chores; she won't let me, possibly as a way to martyr herself. So when I'm not at work I'm pretty much in my room at all times.
One thing I need to do more is engage with my son. Presently I'm not interacting with him as much because it would require being in her presence, hearing her say I'm only trying to spend time with him to look good when I allegedly don't care. All in all it's not a good look for me and makes me look like a selfish a-hole which I'm guessing is par for the course with BPD and a cause for separation much of the time.
If this blows over at any point soon I WILL set up an appointment for her. As much as I hate her right now (or the present her) it's genuinely worth the effort.

[babyducks]

If this blows over at any point soon I WILL set up an appointment for her. As much as I hate her right now (or the present her) it's genuinely worth the effort.

A little nuance to consider.   And nuance is important.

Please don't set up an appointment for her.

Setting it up for her walks right into 'you are making me'... 'you are trying to control me'...'you picked a jerk'

HELP her set up an appointment but make sure she has input and choices.   It's perfectly okay to say / start with something like "I can help you figure out the insurance stuff but the choice of who and when is up to you "

[leedsfan1109]

Welcome welcome! Looking forward to meeting more people over my time here!

[SaltyDawg]

A little nuance to consider.   And nuance is important.

Please don't set up an appointment for her.

Setting it up for her walks right into 'you are making me'... 'you are trying to control me'...'you picked a jerk'

HELP her set up an appointment but make sure she has input and choices.   It's perfectly okay to say / start with something like "I can help you figure out the insurance stuff but the choice of who and when is up to you "

I am guilty of that.  It does not work.  We went to one session, and my wife fired her by not going back, even though it was my wife who told me to hire her.  Go figure. 

So, after that, I let her decide if and when we needed to get counseling. 

Well, I will jump at any opportunity that she wants to go to counseling with me [even if it is her intention to 'fix' me].

[mcgoggles]

I'm at least willing to print out the paperwork. Since she doesn't want to take care of herself she let her medicaid expire and she does not work.
We're in Columbus, OH and there only a handful of pro-bono mental health services I know of.

[mcgoggles]

Okay, I am researching pro-bono -sliding scale options for mental health counseling.
She refused to put in the time/effort to re-apply for medicaid so she's got nothing at the moment. I am least willing to print out application sheets from different programs for her.
We're in Columbus, OH. I don't know if it's any more difficult to find work in other places as here.

[SaltyDawg]

You can only do so much.  You printed out the applications, gave it to her, and she did nothing.  She is responsible for her actions, even if you think her 'condition' says otherwise.

You can only take care of you, so come up with a plan that works for you.

Be sure to practice self-care, that is my number one recommendation no matter what state your relationship is in healthy to totally dysfunctional.  Where you go from there is up to you.

[kells76]

Good feedback from SaltyDawg. "Lead a horse to water" comes to mind. You've been very caring in wanting to support your W, and now she's at a point where she decides for herself if/how she will follow through.

What she does or doesn't do, though, doesn't have to impact you taking care of yourself. Continuing with your therapy and meds is huge. Taking some time for yourself to recharge, be with friends/family, etc, where you can take a break from the disorder, will be important as well. As the airlines say, in order to help others put on their oxygen masks, you have to put on your own first.

You know her best, so you can ponder if she may be more able/willing to move forward in seeking treatment if she feels less "pressured". For example, now that you've printed out some applications, I wonder what would happen if there was some "breathing room" and you gave yourself a break from research and suggestions. Leave the applications around wherever, and maybe don't mention it or "suggest" or "hint" that she do anything. Some pwBPD, in a weird way, once the (perceived) pressure is off, can take suggestions and move forward with a plan, though they may frame it as "I always wanted to do that" or "That was my idea".

Anyway, food for thought. Glad you're taking care of yourself.

[babyducks]

hello mcgoogles,

there is good feedback in this thread for you to consider.     It sounds like you have advanced the idea of therapy as far as you can for now.     I'd agree with the others who have said perhaps let the idea rest for a while.

How are things going for you today?    How are you feeling?

I'd like to take a moment to encourage you to explore other areas of this website.    there is a lot of content here and sometimes sorting through it takes some time.

below is a link to the library section.    the articles and posts are slightly older there but still contain very helpful information.    that's why they are saved off into a special collection.    when you are ready click on the link below.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

the library talks about what we can do, what steps we can take to maintain ourselves and hopefully help our relationship.     often the advice is to concentrate on improving our own relationship skills.    which sounds unfair but is really the best practical approach.   the three main tools often mentioned in regards to a BPD relationship are:   Validation.    Boundaries.    Communication tools like SET/DEARMAN/JADE.    It takes very good communication skills to be in a relationship with a pwBPD.

When I first got here, I knew nothing about validation.   I certainly didn't learn it as a child.     Validating a person's feelings does not mean agreeing with them.   It means sending a message that they are heard.    recognized.    It is a high level emotional intelligence skill.    below is another link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=81442.0

this is from the link above.    it gives some examples of how we are often invalidating without meaning to be.   

Words and phrases that are invalidating to others (not just those with BPD):

Ordering them to feel differently- "don't be mad. Get over it."
Ordering them to look differently- "don't look so sad."
Denying their perception or defending - "that's not what I meant"
Making them feel guilty- "I tried to help you"
Trying to isolate them- "you are the only one who feels that way"
Minimizing their feeling- "you must be kidding"
Using reason- "you are not being rational"
Debating- "I don't always do that"
Judging and labeling them- "you're too sensitive"
Turning things around- "you're making a big deal out of nothing"
Trying to get them to question themselves- "why can't you just get over it?"
Telling them how they should feel- "you should be happy"
Defending the other person- "she didn't mean it that way"
Negating, denial, and confusion- "now you know that isn't true"
Sarcasm and mocking- "you poor baby"
Laying guilt trips- "don't you ever think of anyone else?"
Philosophizing and cliches- "time heals all wounds"
Talking about them when they can hear it- "you can't say anything to her"
Showing intolerance- "I am sick of hearing about it"
Trying to control how long someone feels about something- "you should be over that by now"
Explanation- "maybe it's because _____ "

usually there is some truth to the idea that both people in a BPD relationship have low tolerance for invalidation.   and high validation needs of their own.    when the wires get crossed, having a simple conversation can be emotionally difficult.

I know that's a lot to take in.     What's your first impression as you read through some of that?

'ducks

[mcgoggles]

OK, sadly I've revealed my hand and may have destroyed any hope of repairing this; I told her that she probably has BPD.
Our son has been displaying symptoms of coprophagia; smearing feces on the bathroom walls/floor and hiding urine/feces in his room. We messaged his doctor, but then it quickly became about what *I* did. We have both used corporal punishment, have screamed at him- bad parent stuff. I've already promised him I wouldn't anymore and for the past couple months It's been better.

She still flies into rages, punches him screams etc, then has no memory of it and insists she's gotten better.
During our argument our argument. She shifted this all on me and asked how I had any idea of what could be wrong. She said because of her upbringing she knows what makes kids like this and I'm to blame. I brought up her behavior, the fact that her brother has this behavior and the fact that this is most commonly associated with BPD and then I outright said it.

Like clockwork, "no YOU have it", "YOU are the only one to blame" and "I never said I hallucinate, I don't get panicked, but if I do it's because of you and him".
I didn't bring this up during the argument because I know she'd insist it never happens but along with the vocal threats of suicide in front of him she once told me that if we ever divorced and I tried to take him she said she'd kill the boy and then herself. I don't necessarily believe she'd do that but due to me revealing my intentions for her I worry she could get backed into a corner; especially if she knew I'd secretly discussed this with her best friend who is a LPC.

She said that clearly I have the problems because I havent changed and why we make so little money.
I finally cracked. I told her that living with someone who has BPD can make progressing in a career way harder.

I am concerned about what's going to happen from hereon.

[Rev]

OK, sadly I've revealed my hand and may have destroyed any hope of repairing this; I told her that she probably has BPD.
Our son has been displaying symptoms of coprophagia; smearing feces on the bathroom walls/floor and hiding urine/feces in his room. We messaged his doctor, but then it quickly became about what *I* did. We have both used corporal punishment, have screamed at him- bad parent stuff. I've already promised him I wouldn't anymore and for the past couple months It's been better.

She still flies into rages, punches him screams etc, then has no memory of it and insists she's gotten better.
During our argument our argument. She shifted this all on me and asked how I had any idea of what could be wrong. She said because of her upbringing she knows what makes kids like this and I'm to blame. I brought up her behavior, the fact that her brother has this behavior and the fact that this is most commonly associated with BPD and then I outright said it.

Like clockwork, "no YOU have it", "YOU are the only one to blame" and "I never said I hallucinate, I don't get panicked, but if I do it's because of you and him".
I didn't bring this up during the argument because I know she'd insist it never happens but along with the vocal threats of suicide in front of him she once told me that if we ever divorced and I tried to take him she said she'd kill the boy and then herself. I don't necessarily believe she'd do that but due to me revealing my intentions for her I worry she could get backed into a corner; especially if she knew I'd secretly discussed this with her best friend who is a LPC.

She said that clearly I have the problems because I havent changed and why we make so little money.
I finally cracked. I told her that living with someone who has BPD can make progressing in a career way harder.

I am concerned about what's going to happen from hereon.

Hi there McGoggles,

First off... thank you for the trust you've placed here in sharing this news with such clarity and honesty.  That takes courage on one hand AND it takes even more integrity to be so clear on the other hand. I just want to affirm that.

With that respect in mind, please hear that I am now writing with your son in mind. In the part of the world that I live in, if you were in my office, I would be required by law, under penalty of failure to comply, to report to what we call here as Children's Aid Society. The behavior you describe fits the definition a child being at risk with the aim of intervening in a supportive role - namely a social worker would work to keep the family unit intact while protecting the mental and physical wellbeing of your son. Now that's the law in my area - I would implore you to inform yourself of what your obligations are in yours.

As a secondary comment - are you yourself safe?  That too is important because it seems that your wife is not in a current state to care for you son. That means it appears to be on your shoulders.  Are there support groups in your area for men in your situation?  That can be hard to find. In my area, threatening suicide and infanticide meets the legal definition for Domestic Violence and Abuse.  

Again, I know that these words can be confronting, because they are strong. I want to reaffirm how much courage and integrity I sense in you sharing them. These are the words of a man who cares for his family and for his son - even a man who wishes his wife would get help so that the family can be healthy. That shows the depth of your heart.

Please ponder these words I am sharing.

Please continue to reach out.

Please continue to love your boy. He needs you to be strong right now.

You got this.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

Thank you for your transparency as well, Rev. Regardless of my son's behavior I am 100% certain the boy's life is not in danger, but I am very certain my wife's would be if he were taken from her.
That being said if I made an ultimatum to leave if she doesn't seek help, or simply decide to start the process I am not 100% certain I wouldn't be in danger. She has a brother who very likely has BPD and he's...compulsive. I am very certain it could either end with getting hurt or my professional reputation + finances irrevocably ruined. If I feel this way, I'm willing to bet everyone on this board reading this would say this is a very probable result.

[mcgoggles]

actually, as far as the boy's safety from her I don't know if I'm in a position to say he's 100% safe. I just know that has never been a situation up until now and that I'd like to NOT consider that possibility.

[kells76]

Hey mcgoggles, glad you came back and updated us on how things are going. It does sound really difficult right now. It's so good that your son has you.

Can you remind me, how old is your son? School age? Is he back in school, then, after the holiday break?

One more question -- you've mentioned before seeing a T for yourself. When's your next appointment?

Lots of moving parts and challenges here. We can take it a day at a time as you figure out some good paths forward.

I'll check back in a bit;

kells76

[mcgoggles]

Hey mcgoggles, glad you came back and updated us on how things are going. It does sound really difficult right now. It's so good that your son has you.

Can you remind me, how old is your son? School age? Is he back in school, then, after the holiday break?

One more question -- you've mentioned before seeing a T for yourself. When's your next appointment?

Lots of moving parts and challenges here. We can take it a day at a time as you figure out some good paths forward.

I'll check back in a bit;

kells76

They boy's 7. He just went back to school. I don't have a current T, only a Psich. I spin a lot of plates as it is, so if I have to make a choice between staying medicated or therapy, I'll take the meds. To his credit my Psich /does/ ask about my personal life and how our current situation is but he does harp on me to continue to seek therapy. I don't have one set T because I use a telehealth service- also I worry my wife listens to my T sessions because they take longer than my Psich.
So I understand I will very likely have to see a T soon, ATM I have various support groups and friend circles to keep me more grounded. Even though I'm the only one working, just being out and around strangers is better for me than being home with her for 8 hours.

[Rev]

Thank you for your transparency as well, Rev. Regardless of my son's behavior I am 100% certain the boy's life is not in danger, but I am very certain my wife's would be if he were taken from her.
That being said if I made an ultimatum to leave if she doesn't seek help, or simply decide to start the process I am not 100% certain I wouldn't be in danger. She has a brother who very likely has BPD and he's...compulsive. I am very certain it could either end with getting hurt or my professional reputation + finances irrevocably ruined. If I feel this way, I'm willing to bet everyone on this board reading this would say this is a very probable result.

That's good clarity. In situations like this sticking within the boundaries of personal safety is super important.  I am really reassured that we're talking on this level.

Objectively your son and your family are fortunate to have you there. I say that objectively- cause there are parents who would have bailed by now.

I an wondering how we can best support you now in the moment. Kells and I can compliment each other.

So what do you think? Are there some specific questions you have?  Do you need moral support? A place to vent so you can stay in this really logical place you seem to be in? Something else?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

For the time-being I'm mainly using this thread as a method of grounding by checking if something new develops. In the off-chance this ends well it can be used as a case-study for future BPD family.

I WOULD like to ask if anyone here has had custody/divorce/commitment experience. In the scenario where legal action has to be taken I know my own mental health is going to be used to dispute my credibility.
Also, now that she knows my motivations and what what my view of her mental health is, should I still attempt to 'lead' her to the decisions to seek therapy, or is that a wasted effort?

[Rev]

For the time-being I'm mainly using this thread as a method of grounding by checking if something new develops. In the off-chance this ends well it can be used as a case-study for future BPD family.

I WOULD like to ask if anyone here has had custody/divorce/commitment experience. In the scenario where legal action has to be taken I know my own mental health is going to be used to dispute my credibility.
Also, now that she knows my motivations and what what my view of her mental health is, should I still attempt to 'lead' her to the decisions to seek therapy, or is that a wasted effort?

Kells will look into that for you.  There are many boards here.  

I can support you for your sense of self and that kind of thing. Regardless of the direction you're going to take with this, I'd be more that happy to be moral support. I have, unfortunately, experience with having been on the end of some pretty rough treatment from my ex.

One thing that stands out - I would most definitely stay away from "leading" her towards therapy. Even in the best of circumstances, that really doesn't produce good results. The things you are suggesting your wife has said makes that situation really only more risky. 

If I were in your situation, I would seek guidance for yourself instead. Real good advice about how to manage the day to day stuff until you get the bigger picture sorted out in terms of where you want to be headed.  I know it this may sound like not much, but please trust me.  Getting yourself grounded in believing you deserve way better than this will make a huge difference down the road.  And when I say this, I don't judge your wife, the mother of your son, in any way. Right now, I am really just wanting you to be where you need to be - heart, mind and soul.

Kells will know where to get the concrete advice you're looking for. These are real issues for you to be looking into without question.

Really sorry for the situation you find yourself in. Glad you found us. You'll get good support here.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Rev]

I WOULD like to ask if anyone here has had custody/divorce/commitment experience. In the scenario where legal action has to be taken I know my own mental health is going to be used to dispute my credibility.

I'm expecting someone to reach out to your regarding the divorcing board. There are tools here also that will apply to the above - but I am less familiar with them.

Please check the previous post again if you have already seen it before. I added some thougths.

Rev

[kells76]

For the time-being I'm mainly using this thread as a method of grounding by checking if something new develops. In the off-chance this ends well it can be used as a case-study for future BPD family.

Makes a lot of sense -- sometimes I post here in a similar way, where something crazy has happened (again  ) with the kids' mom and stepdad, so I post what happened to record it, and I also get some feedback and perspective.

I WOULD like to ask if anyone here has had custody/divorce/commitment experience. In the scenario where legal action has to be taken I know my own mental health is going to be used to dispute my credibility.

Divorce/custody: yes, my DH and his kids' mom divorced >10 years ago. Tell me a little more about what you mean by "commitment" -- do you mean relational commitment ("we're sticking this out together"), or psychiatric commitment ("you're going to a mental hospital"), or other?

Weirdly, the "nice" thing about "broadly normal" (I'm not talking homicidal psychopathy) MH issues is that generally, in regards to divorce/custody, it isn't about whether you have them or not, it's about what you do about them. There's a world of difference between being a person who shows up in court and is like "Nope, I've really got it together, no problems with me, it's all the other parent's fault!" and a person who says "You know, Your Honor, once I learned that I had ADHD and that it was impacting my parenting, I knew I had to prioritize our son's well-being, so I actively sought out professional support. Now, with medication and consistent check-ins, I'm managing my condition successfully, and my provider assures me she sees minimal to no impact on our son." Huge, huge difference.

One member here will remind people that "courts love counseling". It shows that you're a realistic, practical problem-solver. Proactively seeking help for MH issues also "takes the wind out of the sails" of the other parent. Now that it's out in the open, she can't hold it over your head like some horribly powerful secret. It's like -- if the other parent brings up: "He's an unfit dad because he... HAS DEPRESSION", you could be like "Sure, it's no secret that I've already talked about managing my depression through professional support... let's move on to what really matters, which is our child".

So, if you can keep on doing what you're doing -- regular appointments with your psych, plus med management, plus (like you've mentioned) chatting with your P about real life issues -- that can "de-weaponize" any use of your MH against you.

To additionally "de-fang" and get ahead of any allegations about MH, one approach could be having a discussion with your P about the impact of your MH on your parenting. I'd suspect your P would keep session notes? This would show that you're prioritizing your son and educating yourself on how to be the best dad you can under the circumstances. Especially if your P was like "Well, one way this diagnosis/these med side effects/XYZ impacts parenting is... ABC", then you guys can talk about how you can work with that, and you can report back "I took our discussion seriously and now I'm trying your suggestion with Son, and I'm seeing results".

So as long as you're taking reasonably normal steps to acknowledge any MH hurdles and manage them with a professional, I wouldn't worry too much about your credibility. I hope that can deflate that worry a bit.

One other story I remember from a member here is that (as best I can remember) he and his kids' mom both had to take the MMPI-2 (a mental health/psych assessment). His showed that he had a predisposition towards addictive behaviors/addictions, which he hadn't known before. So, instead of being afraid that it'd be used against him, he realized that he could use that to show that he was a pretty reasonable dad -- his plan, if that came up in court, was to say something like "I learned from my assessment that I have traits XYZ, so I'm glad I learned that, and my plan going forward is to avoid addictive substances, because I know that would impact my kids". He shined light on it instead of treating it like a secret, and that can really deflate any attempt to use it as an "aha, gotcha" kind of thing.

Also, now that she knows my motivations and what what my view of her mental health is, should I still attempt to 'lead' her to the decisions to seek therapy, or is that a wasted effort?

Rev's perspective is helpful -- now might be a time to focus on your and your son's well-being. She's likely not in a place to hear or be receptive to do anything, so you can put all that energy and focus on getting help and support for you and your son. Your son is a child and needs adult help, while your W is an adult and can make adult choices on her own.

For your son, have you chatted with any teachers/school personnel yet about getting some extra help for him, or even just alerting them that he's having difficulties? Even at 7 (is he 2nd grade?), there are probably great resources in his school that you can give a "heads up" to. Does that sound do-able to you?

...

Whenever you want, don't hesitate to post on the Conflicted/Divorce/Custody board. Lots of members there have gone through separation, divorce, lawyer stuff, legal stuff, parenting plans, getting professional help for the kids... all of it. Please check out the threads and post when you need to -- we'll be there.

Keep us in the loop;

kells76

[mcgoggles]

@Kells, involuntary commitment.
Kells and Rev, I appreciate your help.
I wanted to consult you both about a conversation I had today with a family member.
My uncle has been taking care of his wife for some time. My aunt has a sever case of bipolar disorder, where she'll go into violent rages or manic hysteria- she's a writer and she once shredded one of her manuscrips. He's 60 and he's been dealing with her mental illness for over 15 years now- so I trust his advice just as much. We currently have an extremely precarious financial situation. I lost a job that paid more, then our rent went up and now I work at a grocery store. We've had to beg friends for help with rent and and we're out of favors. Because non-for-profit programs that help with rent don't offer much help until you're being evicted. My uncle has suggested to either coerce her or force her hand into therapy to collect disability because it would would help with two problems.
He has suggested using the ultimatum of continued radio silence or outright separation. This seems totally contrary to what you've both just told me, but the financial factor here is ramping the difficulty level from 'Hard Mode' to 'Brutal'. I'm sort of at a loss at the moment because frankly, if we did face eviction and were left homeless she'd likely take the boy back up with her family and I probably wouldn't fight her at the point.
And to clarify, I don't want a seperation- my goal to get through this and not destroy myself in the process.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rev]

Hi...

Give me a day or so to sit with this.

Sound okay?

Rev

[mcgoggles]

there was a typo where I wrote "my wife has bipolar" where I meant to say "his wife" or "my aunt". ADHD means being prone to typos.

[Rev]

there was a typo where I wrote "my wife has bipolar" where I meant to say "his wife" or "my aunt". ADHD means being prone to typos.

You know - I have a mild form of dyslexia and I didn't catch the reversal!  LOL.

Get back to you soon.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

@kells
one thing I will openly admit that would hurt my credibility is my anger. Often she will intentionally thwart things, cancel plans or throw her things away to upset me. I, in turn, scream and then leave to cool off. She intentionally pushes buttons, especially in front of the child which consciously or not, is an excellent way to make him run to her than me. At one point early in our relationship I was much less angry and loud but in the past few years it's easy to get a certain point where I think "she's already decided to destroy everything, might as well oblige her and destroy her feelings too". I'll admit that's what I should not do but I'm willing to bet there's more than one spouse on this forum who has been pushed to the point where they know the difference between right/wrong but frankly don't care.

I am going to do my damnedest to get through this. I do want to retain my own marriage but I don't think I would tell anyone with bipolar or anger issues to continue a relationship with a borderline. I would say it's far too volatile a combination to sustain.

~about 30 minutes later now and I'm more calm. I don't like those feelings, by my mood disorder is a handicap for this fight.

[kells76]

Hey, good to hear from you again.

one thing I will openly admit that would hurt my credibility is my anger. Often she will intentionally thwart things, cancel plans or throw her things away to upset me. I, in turn, scream and then leave to cool off. She intentionally pushes buttons, especially in front of the child. At one point early in our relationship I was much less angry and loud but in the past few years it's easy to get a certain point where I think "she's already decided to destroy everything, might as well oblige her and destroy her feelings too". I'll admit that's what I should not do but I'm willing to bet there's more than one spouse on this forum who has been pushed to the point where they know the difference between right/wrong but frankly don't care.

OK, that sounds like good information to know about yourself. And yes, coping with a pwBPD pushes us to our limits. It can be excruciating. Our limits show up in a lot of different ways -- for you, it is sometimes screaming, anger, getting loud, and getting back at her. For others, it can be that, or it can be more internal -- checking out, going numb, suicidality, drinking, etc. This is hard stuff.

One thing I read is that even though you talk about screaming back, you also mention leaving to cool off. Leaving to let things deescalate is a good choice, so give yourself credit for that.

What do you notice in those moments right before screaming/getting loud? Does that feeling escalate pretty fast, like too hard to catch (one moment you're mostly fine, the next split second you find yourself screaming)? Or are there times when you notice "I'm in the middle of heading towards wanting to scream" and it feels like maybe you can catch things before they escalate? How would you describe your experience?

...

In terms of your credibility, legal-wise, again my thought is that -- there's a big difference between someone in your shoes who says "Yeah sure, I yelled, but, she deserved it", and someone in your shoes who says "I found myself in a place that I'd never want my son to think was OK, and when I had that realization, I decided to try ABC instead... I wasn't always successful, but I tried hard to change".

Lots of people are angry, and lots of people get big when they get angry. That's normal. And it's normal to be pushed to the edge by what pwBPD do and say. But some people acknowledge it, and some don't. It would say a lot about your credibility to try some baby steps to address parts of your anger expression that you want to change.

You don't have to tackle everything at once. It could look like telling your P: "When my buttons get pushed, it's really easy for me to slam doors, and I don't want to do that any more, but it's really hard to get out of that habit. What would you recommend?" Your P might know about a book for you to read, or a workbook to take home, or an online class you can sign up for. Basically, it's not a lost cause. It's what you do about noticing these parts of your anger expression that makes a difference. You can focus on just one part for starters -- like door slamming, or yelling certain words, or XYZ. One step at a time.

I am going to do my damnedest to get through this. I do want to retain my own marriage but I don't think I would tell anyone with bipolar or anger issues to continue a relationship with a borderline. I would say it's far too volatile a combination to sustain.

In my own way, I get what you're saying. My H's kids' mom has many BPD traits, and that has made me never want to recommend being a stepparent to anyone else. It is beyond difficult.

...

One more thought just hit me -- have you heard of the book The High Conflict Couple, by Alan E. Fruzzetti? While I haven't read it yet, this part of the description made me wonder if it could be a good resource for you:

Some couples need more than just the run-of-the-mill relationship advice to solve their problems in love. When out-of-control emotions (BPD) are the root cause of problems in a relationship, no amount of effective communication or intimacy building will fix what ails it. What these "high-conflict" couples need is help regulating the emotions that provoke the "escape or win" mode of interaction that has come to define them.

Might be something to check out.

Hope you have some times of peace and quiet this weekend -- maybe doing something fun & chill with S7?

Talk with you soon;

kells76

[mcgoggles]

@kells
re: my temper it seems to be two types: pressure building up from consistent comments, resulting in a premeditated explosion or a knee-jerk reaction because she's just said/did something so upsetting or absurd to give me little time to process it. There are some occasions where I'm lucky enough to catch myself. It's very The last therapist whom I saw for an extended period was trying to help me prevent explosive outburts by re-directing anger (clenching fists, breathing etc) which is only helpful when I'm out in public, because at home I can only go to my room in our apartment. Leaving the building entirely means she'll be just as volatile when I return. I will do my best to look into this book.

[Rev]

@kells
one thing I will openly admit that would hurt my credibility is my anger. Often she will intentionally thwart things, cancel plans or throw her things away to upset me. I, in turn, scream and then leave to cool off. She intentionally pushes buttons, especially in front of the child which consciously or not, is an excellent way to make him run to her than me. At one point early in our relationship I was much less angry and loud but in the past few years it's easy to get a certain point where I think "she's already decided to destroy everything, might as well oblige her and destroy her feelings too". I'll admit that's what I should not do but I'm willing to bet there's more than one spouse on this forum who has been pushed to the point where they know the difference between right/wrong but frankly don't care.

I am going to do my damnedest to get through this. I do want to retain my own marriage but I don't think I would tell anyone with bipolar or anger issues to continue a relationship with a borderline. I would say it's far too volatile a combination to sustain.

~about 30 minutes later now and I'm more calm. I don't like those feelings, by my mood disorder is a handicap for this fight.

Hi McGoogles,

So I am going to do three things here that frame what I'm going to add -

1) Get straight to the point. This is because we're in a written forum and it's easy to get mixed up. That being said, direct language in writing can sound harsh. Please imagine that we're in a safe place right now, just you and me and Kells and we're having the beverage of choice.

2) I am going to say now that I am adding to what Kells has offered, not in the form of more things to think about doing, but instead in terms of being. In any action plan where the stakes are high, there are three things that really need to harmonize as best as possible - a) The action you take  b) the demeanor with which you act c) your own personal disposition towards yourself as you are acting.

3) Let's look at this:  your own personal disposition towards yourself as you are acting.  I would say that most times in high stress we think about our disposition towards the other person. This is natural because we want to mitigate risk in times of high stress because trust is low.  Make sense so far?  Okay - so reverse the mindset that you have. What personal self regard do you have for yourself - because the measure that you are able to treat yourself with respect is the measure that you will run less risk (note "less" - not "eliminate") of setting things is worse direction (note "worse" - because it is already bad.)

Take a breath - let that sink in until you can feel it taking root or being grounded in your sense of self.

Now...

Here is what I am going to add.  Please take what ever makes sense and make it yours.

Whatever you decide to do, there is no currency in blaming yourself for bad behavior in the past. That only prevents you from doing the right thing.  In all the advice that Kells has given you, and the resources that are at your disposal please answer for yourself the three following questions:

1) What is the most important thing for my child, right now?

2) What am I willing to do to provide that, and what is holding me back? (Answer this on a personal level. Do not factor your wife's presence in the matter for now. Just focus on yourself. If you are afraid of your wife, for example, look at the source of your fear rather that focus on how to change her behavior).

3) What help is around me to close the gap (either materially or personally on an emotional level) from acting on what is in the best interest for my child. (Again, do not factor your wife in the picture.)

I'd like to add this now, because I think the time is correct. What you have written here has been pretty consistent. Your wife fits the profile of a domestic abuser. I'm not sure how that lands for you? It can be hard for that to come into focus, especially for men The reason why I am saying this now, is to hopefully prevent you from second guessing yourself on one hand - and putting any idea of "convincing her" or putting an "ultimatum in front of her".  Abusers have simply no concept that anything could possibly be their fault.

The rest of what you try to put in motion is totally contextual. Only you can know the precise details of the advice you are getting about concrete action can look like.

I'm going to stop there and I'd invite you to come back to me with any specific questions you may have before I say more.

Again, Kells has given you good concrete advice. I'm really here to prop you up.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[kells76]

Hey mcgoggles, hope the last few days have been OK for you -- keep us posted on how your weekend goes and how you and your son are doing, whenever works for you.

-kells76

[mcgoggles]

The past week had been way better until this evening.

She said she'd joined a 'women's group' which frankly could mean anything but I gather it's some kind of support group and she's smiled a bit more- even gotten less upset. Evidentially she did go somehwere because when I came home from work there were flowers and some reading material (I think?). I didn't ask much about it because her just doing this on her own was in itself amazing.

We'd discussed going on a family outing but I threw away a food card that would have gotten us a discount. She got extremely upset, I got defensive saying I thought we wouldn't need it because she said there was no point in re-applying for the benefits. She insisted I'm intentionally trying to thwart us and we're in dire straights because I want us to be, I stormed to my room. She loudly told our son that nothing was happening tomorrow because "dad doesn't want us to".  I got my clothes on and was ready to literally go out to the dumpster to look for it. She told me she'd lock the door if I did so.

I lost my patience,threw open the door, told her that I hate her and will never forgive her, she told me the same and then accused me of infidelity. I then replied that I won't ever forgive her for not getting mental help. Minutes later I her her tell our son that her and him will go out tomorrow. I blocked her phone number- it's something I do after arguments, then unblock it later.

Now I'm not sure if there was progress or this was just her on the good end of a 'split' for the past 8 days. It sucks because she took initiative on her part to walk by herself outside and join a group to talk to people.

@rev frankly I have too much to make any drastic or immediate changes. I am too busy trying to further my career, provide for my family, pay bills AND keeping my brain from trying to kill me. I have state caseworkers trying to find me better work, which would at least give me a chance to catch my breath and form some kind of plan; I don't even know if we're making rent this month. Unless some sort of external factor enters the equation I cannot do much. I am tired and weary. Locking myself in my room, leaving when I wish, refraining contact/proximity with her and going to my job are the best coping mechanisms I have at the moment. Taking my meds still ensures I can deal with it better than I used to. I am not strong enough to withstand being homeless with a kid and a destroyed career because I know what kind of person I'd become.  I don't know if it sounds like Stockholm syndrome or laziness but I've been spinning a lot of plates for the past 8 years.

An old supervisor of mine said his friend knew it was time to separate from  his wife when she stabbed him in the leg. I'm not saying I'd like to be stabbed, but at the very least it would be an undeniable turning point.

I am an artist and I play video games, so at the very least I DO have multiple outlets because frankly I'd be dead by now if I didn't. At my last job I took calls for a hospice company and you'd be amazed how many people had become cruel wardens who safely provided for their partners while simultaneously keeping them isolated and alone in retaliation for years of verbal abuse. I'm pretty sure I could end up like that, keeping her in a gilded cage purely out of spite for the years of abuse, what she's done to the boy and my career and this is why I spend some much time alone in my room doing the things I like,it's my shelter. I don't know how many bpd partners end up resorting to that kind of cruelty but if there are any who thought about it or got to that point I'd like to know how they got out of it. I think these feelings come from a place of feeling trapped and so our thoughts and emotions stagnate.

So I guess the three takeaways at the present time are
1) she sought support of her own volition with no immediate improvement
2) I am hiding in my bunker while I devise a plan to change any part of this.
3) I am trying to stop a future timeline where I am an evil villain.

[Rev]

@rev frankly I have too much to make any drastic or immediate changes. I am too busy trying to further my career, provide for my family, pay bills AND keeping my brain from trying to kill me. I have state caseworkers trying to find me better work, which would at least give me a chance to catch my breath and form some kind of plan. Unless some sort of external factor enters the equation I cannot do much. I am tired and weary. Locking myself in my room, leaving when I wish, refraining contact/proximity with her and going to my job are the best coping mechanisms I have at the moment. Taking my meds still ensures I can deal with it better than I used to. I am not strong enough to withstand being homeless with a kid and a destroyed career because I know what kind of person I'd become.

Thanks for sharing this. If I overwhelmed you, I certainly didn't want to.  If this is where you are at, and the questions have allowed you to understand that this is what you need to do, then I hope you can make these choices with more certainty - even if they are only the best out of a list of not so great choices.

Given what you are sharing here tonight, what, if anything, can we offer you to raise your morale? Even if only a little.

Hang in there.

Yours are the words of a man who has a big heart.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

are there any members who have been or is there a thread about a partner with bipolar/depression who has fought off suicide while living with a significant other with bpd?

are there any grounding techniques I can use to make sure I know my perception isn't being warped when she makes me question my own judgement?

[Rev]

are there any members who have been or is there a thread about a partner with bipolar/depression who has fought off suicide while living with a significant other with bpd?

are there any grounding techniques I can use to make sure I know my perception isn't being warped when she makes me question my own judgement?

Yes!  And that is a GREAT question.

Give me a day - and I will cut an paste them to this thread. 

In the meantime - are you inclined to read up on things like this?  If you have the gas, then I can recommend two workbooks - but I don't want to overload you.

Rev

[Rev]

Here's the first tool I wanted to send to you:

The TELEPORTATION TOOL to cognitively defuse from emotional distortion.

Tools are things that require practice. And like any new skill, the best thing to do is to start learning to use them when the stakes aren’t too high, where stress levels are low. And to do this every day until it becomes second nature. It will take a person anywhere between 30 and 100 days for a new habit to become fully integrated. And remember, in the tougher situations, choosing to do nothing until you have thought it through is in fact a choice of action.
 
TELEPORTATION is a tool that should be put into effect once you have mastered the DROPPING ANCHOR meditation.  Teleportation builds on the clarity that Dropping Anchor brings and takes it to the next level. The TELEPORTATION TOOL is tool to keep emotions is their proper place and intuitively come up with a response to a situation. Emotional distortion – for example, maybe feeling things bigger that the situation warrants – can cause us to make choices that at the time seem like they serve our purpose, but when we see things in the “rear-view mirror”, we realize that we misread the situation.
So, how can you sort through a situation confidently when it is emotionally charged?

Here is how it works:

1)   Review the DROPPING ANCHOR meditation and make sure you’re on solid ground.
2)   Now, in the same kind of comfortable sitting position you are using (with eyes closed or staring in front your nose) begin to invite the situation you are trying to sort through into your conscious mind. Try not to problem solve so much as feel through it.
3)   Ask yourself some clarifying questions: What are the presenting issues of the problem? What outcome are you hoping for? Why is this situation important to you? What challenging emotions are present?
4)   Allow all your possible responses to come out of your intuition.
5)   From there – formulate a conscious plan about how to respond to the situation. Do this in stages starting with the big details like what you want to communicate, the deadline you are hoping to arrive at resolution, the outcome you are looking for.
6)   Next – begin to refine this plan. Imagine the various actions that you would take and the kinds of things you might say. Continue to work out of your intuition. Even if at first the ideas that are coming seem crazy to you, follow the path that they lead.
7)   Throughout this, continue to notice the challenging emotions that are present. Are they changing? Getting stronger?  Fading away? 
8)   Pause – ask yourself why this might be happening?  Is it because the way you perceive your attachment to an outcome is changing, or is it because of something else?
9)   Bring the plan of action fully into your consciousness. Write it down if you need to.
10)   Now that the plan is there, begin to a cost-benefit analysis through sober, clear-eyed thinking. If negative self talk begins or you find yourself engaging in wishful thinking (like someone will miraculously change their character), stop and start the whole process over. This takes practice, and its normal to need to do it more than once.

[Rev]

Here's the second one ...

The DROPPING ANCHOR meditation to defuse from cognitive distortion.

Cognitive distortion is something that can happen when our emotions flood our thoughts too fast and we experience turbulent thoughts.  This can cause us to fixate on a particular thought that is likely not based on an accurate reading of the situation (for more on this – consult the Emotions Intelligence Chart and the Balancing Thoughts and Emotions Chart with me). Once the mind begins the fixate on a idea, the emotions that led to it are now part of that idea. We say that the emotions have become fused to your thinking. Here’s a way to de-fuse and start thinking more clearly – a way to find a Clear Moment.


HERE IS HOW IT WORKS:

1)   Sit in a comfortable position.  You might want to start with a Box Breathe (A box breathe - breathe in for 2 seconds, hold for 2 seconds, breathe out for 4 seconds.)
2)   Take a moment to let a stressful thought come into your mind. Focus on the thought itself, not the situation that causes it. Allow the thought to come close enough that you can feel the stress but not so close that is overwhelms you. This is called “optimum stress”.
3)   At this point – you have two choices: You either open your eyes so that you can focus on your immediate surroundings OR you can keep your eyes closed and focus on your bodily sensations. Either works and you may want to do both if you wish.
4)   In your focussing, move from being aware of your thought to the situation that is causing it. Allow your image of it to be as complete as possible.  Again, be aware of optimum stress.
5)   If you have your eyes closed – be aware of the bodily sensations you feel. Focus on no more than three sensations. Stop the mediation and write down the sensations.
6)   If you have your eyes open – be aware of the room around you. Note the first three things (i.e.: a painting, a chair, a rug) the come to your mind. Stop the meditation and write down the things.
7)   Take a break and then begin to meditate on the list of three sensations or three things you just listed. Do this with your eyes closed or by focussing on the three inches in front of your nose so everything else is out of focus.
8)   Take note of the emotions that you are feeling.

It is really important that this not become a crutch to escape facing what things need to be worked through. So once you get the hang of how it works that generating images or sensations, then turn your focus to dealing with your challenging thoughts.




As your thinking evolves, you may need to use the DROPPING ANCHOR meditation more than once over the course of a few weeks. BUT, if you do, do not force the issue. Once a week is enough. Pushing will turn this into a crutch of avoidance rather than a tool to deal with your distorted thinking.

Once  you are at a place where you are de-fused from the emotions that are causing your thoughts to occur, then you can begin to rationally analyze them to see if they have their place in the situation. Emotions from the past have a way of following us around and attaching themselves to new situation in the present.  So the conversation becomes about whether what you are experiencing is actually happening in the present, or is the emotion distorting your thinking because it’s attached to your past.

You’ll notice that I try to shy away from calling emotions “good” or “bad”. I also don’t like the word “negative” to describe emotions because the word “negative” is loaded often with shame and guilt. I prefer the word “challenging” because it describes effect the emotion is having on you. If you can identify an emotion as challenging, then it opens the door to asking yourself why you are feeling challenged by it.
 

[Rev]

 Both are handouts from a therapist I know.  I have their permission to share this here.


 

[mcgoggles]

So. I'm going to do something that no one here so far will likely recommend.
I am going to tell her she needs to get help, ASAP. I have been the only provider attempting to do the work of 2 people for the last 8/9 years. I don't make enough money nore do I have enough hours to truly pay our rent; I had to make GoFundMe just to pay our rent. She either needs to get a job or go disability to help.

My career and networking opportunities have been destroyed over the years becauseI was seeing everything through her eyes.
I've been speaking to her friend, the LPC,  in private and she supports this decision. I really hope she takes if upon herself to do this if for no other reason but to have a more comfort life, but we'll see.

For the past few months I've been a client of a state program for people with disabilities who are helping me get closer to my career trajectory, but if everything still has to revved around her BPD it's going to end the same way.

Wish me luck.

[Rev]

So. I'm going to do something that no one here so far will likely recommend.
I am going to tell her she needs to get help, ASAP. I have been the only provider attempting to do the work of 2 people for the last 8/9 years. I don't make enough money nore do I have enough hours to truly pay our rent; I had to make GoFundMe just to pay our rent. She either needs to get a job or go disability to help.

My career and networking opportunities have been destroyed over the years becauseI was seeing everything through her eyes.
I've been speaking to her friend, the LPC,  in private and she supports this decision. I really hope she takes if upon herself to do this if for no other reason but to have a more comfort life, but we'll see.

For the past few months I've been a client of a state program for people with disabilities who are helping me get closer to my career trajectory, but if everything still has to revved around her BPD it's going to end the same way.

Wish me luck.

Good luck !

[SaltyDawg]

I am going to with you luck.  You also have my prayers.  I will also offer up my own personal version of what you are about to do, perhaps you can learn from my errors in judgement.

I am going to advise extreme as 'I know' you are going to do it anyways, I did it too in spite of recommendations to the contrary - drill down on my alias, and see what I previously posted, you have several hundred pages to read through.  

Do I regret what I did.  No, actually "Hell NO!"

I told my pwBPDw my unofficial diagnosis - the results are mixed.  She now has partial awareness versus total denial.  She no longer thinks I am the one who needs to be fixed.  Does she believe she has BPD, the answer to that is NO.  

You need to plan meticulously.  You need to figure out what your pwBPD already knows about themselves.  The more conventional they are they better your odds.

I informed my pwBPD about the following she was aware of:
1.  6 suicide attempts
2.  Domestic violence incidents for which she was reported for by the T after admitting to it in session.
3.  Incidents of projected violence that she admitted to doing
4.  Behaviors of myself and our children resulting from her 'rages'.
5.  Personality conflict at work although with a NPD individual.
6.  Her misdiagnosis of the most common comorbidities of anxiety and depression with medication that doesn't really work.

Whatever she was not aware of or previously indicated denial on, I did not bring up.  I also did this in front of her individual therapist.  Her individual T is totally awesome and has addressed the most damaging symptoms so far.  We still have a ways to go; however, it is going to be a long journey with many setbacks along the way.

Drill down on my posts to see my journey, I made the diagnoses in the beginning of September, it is now just about 5 months later, and there has been marginal progress.

The level of effort required to deal with this is borderline-like, a 110% effort is required, obsession level.

Short version of events:

1st week September, I attempted to enlist friends and family for a borderline interdiction, much like an alcoholic interdiction, while sympathetic, they did not assist as they didn't understand or believe what was going on - I carefully selected the persons who actually witnessed a major splitting event - the suicides and rages were not observed by anyone outside of the immediate family.

2nd week of September she had projected violence [a new trait]; couple's T who previously thought I was a NPD based on my uBPDw's false narrative, sympathised with me, and indicated that I was 'perhaps' correct after witnessing several BPD like behaviors 'in session'.  This couple's-T then ghosted us but gave me the parting gift of telling me to express my observations to my wife's individual-T.

3rd week of September, I expressed the above to my wife's individual-T, and offered up some books on BPD.  She partially read them.

4th week of September - the silent treatment - her rages stopped, and there was relative peace in the house.  I enjoyed the lack of drama, as did our children.

1st week of November - I started a new individual T, as my psychologist realized he was in over his head.  I meant to send a message to the individual T; however, it was accidentally sent to my D - D was horrified and called my wife a 'monster' - this was the trigger or catalyst to get my wife to become partially self-aware of her issues, and started to actively address her issues in a productive manner.  I also went from my D's persecutor to her rescuer in the drama triangle.  Throughout the month of November things were progressing nicely, almost too good, reasonable boundaries were erected by both me and her, her T was appling BPD principles on me [so my wife could be taught the principles, I recognized what was going on] and ...

1st week of December
... it was too good, Domestic Violence #5 occurred, she self-sabotaged the progress.  Almost every week thereafter until last week, there was some kind of boundary violation.  My wife split me hard during the previous two couple's sessions.  The couple's T went from my persecutor to my rescuer when she observed my wife's irrational behaviors.

Today, was the first session since November where a boundary had not been violated, and good progress was made.  I fully expect, based on historical behaviors this will only be a temporary measure, but I am hoping and praying for the best.

I have a large team working on these issues, and it will require herculean efforts to accomplish your desired result.
1.  Couple's T, too many to count, but on the 2nd one since I realized my wife is uBPD.
2.  Her individual T, she is on her first one, upon the recommendation of the 1st couple's T.
3.  My individual T, first one was a guy with a PhD, was in over his head, recognized the BPD-like behavior, and alerted me as to what was going on, and got me a supervisor type [his trainor] to assist after he realized he was in way over his head.  I am on my 2nde individual T, and she gets it.
4.  Family T, formally my son's individual T.  Once #3 identified BPD, and I shared it with #4, my son's and adjusted for it.  my son's oppositional defiance tendencies were corrected in two months, after little progress of two years.  I knew the uBPD was a correct one at this point in time.
5.  BPD Family - indispensable, special shoutouts to NotWendy, Sinister Complex, Rev, ForeverDad, and several others.
6.  Facebook Groups -  including one for borderlines run by borderlines - instrumental in understanding the way a borderline thinks and understands the world - it will take a month of continual reading to really appreciate their dysfunctional views.
7.  A friend who I met on a facebook group, not the one specifically mentioned in #6 but one for who lives with a person with BPD.  We have been able to share our stories with each other and learn from each other - very similar to this support group of BPD Family.

In aggregate I get a month of more worth of therapy every week which include a view of how the borderline mind works some really revelatory type stuff.

So. I'm going to do something that no one here so far will likely recommend.
I am going to tell her she needs to get help, ASAP. I have been the only provider attempting to do the work of 2 people for the last 8/9 years. I don't make enough money nore do I have enough hours to truly pay our rent; I had to make GoFundMe just to pay our rent. She either needs to get a job or go disability to help.

My career and networking opportunities have been destroyed over the years becauseI was seeing everything through her eyes.
I've been speaking to her friend, the LPC,  in private and she supports this decision. I really hope she takes if upon herself to do this if for no other reason but to have a more comfort life, but we'll see.

For the past few months I've been a client of a state program for people with disabilities who are helping me get closer to my career trajectory, but if everything still has to revved around her BPD it's going to end the same way.

Wish me luck.

[kells76]

Hi mcgoggles, thanks for the update -

So. I'm going to do something that no one here so far will likely recommend.
I am going to tell her she needs to get help, ASAP. I have been the only provider attempting to do the work of 2 people for the last 8/9 years. I don't make enough money nore do I have enough hours to truly pay our rent; I had to make GoFundMe just to pay our rent. She either needs to get a job or go disability to help.

My career and networking opportunities have been destroyed over the years becauseI was seeing everything through her eyes.
I've been speaking to her friend, the LPC,  in private and she supports this decision. I really hope she takes if upon herself to do this if for no other reason but to have a more comfort life, but we'll see.

For the past few months I've been a client of a state program for people with disabilities who are helping me get closer to my career trajectory, but if everything still has to revved around her BPD it's going to end the same way.

Wish me luck.

Have you had a chance to follow through yet? If so, how did it go?

If not, how are you planning to have the conversation? What is important to you to make sure you communicate? And what's your plan for knowing that she may say or do things that escalate the situation?

Glad you got to talk to the LPC about it. Keep us posted on how we can be helpful;

kells76

[mcgoggles]

Not a good first attempt.
Did it right after work. She was in a fairly good mood so I did bring it up and yes, all the things that you said would happen did. I know my wife well enough to expect the reversal, the blame shifting and the defensiveness. I realize we are absolutely not supposed to bring up the idea to them that they have it, but because she's acknowledge our son's learning disability- and that I've at least made some noticeable changes- I feel backing it up with facts and statistics can make it something to at least make her consider her perspective could be off.

I brought up what the sort of household usually leads to BPD, then brought up her brother's current state. I stressed as much as possible that I'm not blaming her for how things are. I did make it know that because of my own mental illness, I took her view of things as gospel and it's caused a lot of problems up to this point. This lets her know that she's not at fault for the bad decisions that have been made, nor mine- but also perhaps she shouldn't be the one making the decisions for the household.

I restated the fact multiple times that I had to crowd-fund just to pay our rent and that I should not be attempting to earn the income of two people- since one partner working hasn't feasible for decades. I was pretty solid that needs to be another source of income. I told her she can do this by either getting a job or applying for disability, and either one of these would require seeing a therapist. She has a county caseworker and I recommended she talk to them about this.

I have a job interview this coming week that would pay significantly more money- to the point we could afford rent and pay all our bills- but this still won't solve things. Every time I got a job that paid more than the one before, she always insisted on using the extra cash to feel more comfortable (always ordering food, impulse buys etc) and that unless a change is made, this means we will always struggle.

She got quite emotional. She kept insisting most of our problems were my lack of confidence. She began to blame my family. I told her that I didn't have anything else to say, and went to my room. She said that me insisting she go out and get a job being around men on the bus or the workplace that could potentially harass her, was misogynistic. She also insists she's been out of the workforce too long and lacks training to do anything but work in fast food. She took about 30 minutes to research disability just to tell me BPD is extremely hard to prove to qualify. Bottom line of her rationale is she has no choice to not work and stay home and that I am a selfish baby who doesn't want to work (actual words).

After which I blocked her number. I do this after arguments because I don't need to read paragraphs of vitriol and make myself feel worse. Partners should not be in each other's heads, especially in this situation. I went to bed as I often do after work. We didn't talk for the rest of the evening. I went to work the following day, and unblocked her number.
Still not as much talking but more quiet than angry. We're back to how it was before now- except she's less angry because she had her second women's group meeting which appears to have a very positive effect on her.

So nothing actually happened, except now she knows I feel this way. I'm going to continue to tell her this though.
I didn't bring up the possibility of separation at the time because frankly I was too scared- which is also probably why it wasn't taken seriously.

[SaltyDawg]

McGoggles,

   Thanks for the update.  I am following your progress, so I might be able to gain additional insight, as I am several months into my own journey of making my pwBPD self-aware and making things better in my relationship with her.

   I started at the beginning of September, and it is 5 months later when I can actually say that there has been some significant progress.  It is going to be a monumental task in front of you.  There will be setbacks.  You need to be persistent and consistent.  It requires unconditional love and forgiveness.  It also needs to break the drama dynamic.  This route is not for everyone; however, if we are to stay together it must be done.

   Perhaps, view your first attempt as a 'seed planting tool'.  Where you have planted the seed of 'awareness.'  Water it, gently, nurture it slowly, and let it germinate and grow.  I've recently been successful using this exact tool, it took 4 months to implement, but we were able to achieve two major compromises which would have been previously impossible with her.  It works, you just need to learn, and be persistent about it.

   With regards to the new job; perhaps, not share the bump in pay with her - be honest, but just don't disclose the exact amount.  If pressed, tell her that it is similar if it is less than a 50% difference, with a better work arrangement [come up with other legitimate ways to 'sell' the new job].

   Don't overload the negative statistics, nobody likes being told they are wrong, you don't want to trigger her too much.  You know your wife the best, proceed accordingly.  Do be firm, and loving, not critical.  Don't make her defensive. 

   Instead of blocking, I would suggest 'ignoring' her while you yourself are triggered by her.  If the DND [do not disturb] doesn't work, temporarily mark her number as SPAM, and then unSPAM her when you are ready to read it.  I find with my wife, if I read in between the lines on this 'hate' stuff, I can discern what she is triggered most by, and use that information to avoid triggering her in the future.  It works for me, it might work for you too.

If you are seriously thinking about separation -- abandonment is the central issue of all borderlines.  Do this with extreme -- if your conversation is received with contempt, use this also needs to be done as a 'seed planting tool' and casually mention that you...
'I haven't given much thought to this; however, I am starting to consider that we might want to separate'.
Follow up at least one week later to a month later with 'I am really considering that we may have to separate'
The next follow up to 'We need to separate and move into less expensive places to make this work'.
The next follow up have places picked out, and share those places [to make it a reality, that this is really happening]. 
NOTE:  At this point you must be committed to executing the move if she doesn't comply - or Don't Do It.
The next follow up, go and visit the places that you mentioned, to show that you are serious.
Finally, the next follow-up execute your plan - she will have had several weeks, if not months to process what is going on, and it won't be as impactful for her.
Always put at least a week between steps, but not more than a month.  Make sure that she knows compliance with your boundary [getting a job, or getting assistance] she can break your intentions of following through with the separation - I assume that this is your intention, if not, then you need to be honest with your intentions.

I am sharing with you what I have learned through my own experience in this area where there is no map/instructions to navigate.  Disclaimer:  What works for me may not work for you, as our pwBPD are more often than not different; however, they do have some similarities.

Good Luck, take care.  Please continue to share your insights and experience, and I shall continue to share mine in return.

Also, make sure you do self-care through all of this, as the upcoming weeks and months are going to be more difficult than they previously were as change is exceptionally stressful for the borderline.

I didn't bring up the possibility of separation at the time because frankly I was too scared- which is also probably why it wasn't taken seriously.

[mcgoggles]

Thank you, Saltydawg. I appreciate your input as someone in the thick of it.


This advice makes sense although I don't know that I agree with all of it.
As far as blocking her number I don't feel especially bad about it. She says lots of horrible things about me to our son, she says lots of awful things to me all the time. Not a lot of people get to question what she says or how she says it so I think it can be necessary to show her there is a limit.  Out of the two of us, she knows how to push my buttons since I'm more consistent with my emotions than her. Rather than have her trigger me into shouting poisonous things, I lock myself away. She then in turn uses this as fodder to prove to our son I don't care. Having a mood disorder myself there are times when I go out of my way to make her feel isolated. Prior to her I never experienced a desire to be cruel but when she gets me to a certain point I will make an effort to be even less talkative and more isolating. She says after I started taking my mood stabilizes Ive become sort of a robot, and while I don't necessarily disagree I think it's helped me approach her with stuff like mentioning therapy.

I'll have to keep making tactical movements where I approach her when she's calm and then run for cover. Much of the reason why I lock myself away is at one point she agitated me to the point where I experienced for the first time ever in my life homicidal ideation ( Rev and Kells I didn't withhold this information I simply forgot until today) as opposed to suicidal, and a couple days after I told her as much, which mysteriously didn't phase her or anger her nearly as much as when I accidentally used our only cash to start the washer instead of the dryer. I talked to my psychiatrist about it as well and he agreed distance was a good idea for the foreseeable future.

She is most approachable when our kid is at school because then she doesn't have to constantly watch him. Because of his behavioral problems she becomes a lot more unpredictable and volatile. If I had brought it up in front of the child she would have done everything possible to harm my emotionally/mentally and additionally she'd use the boy as a weapon as well.

So I dunno SaltyDawg- I get the feeling my progress will likely be way slower than yours. Part of the reason I decided to act now as opposed to later is the rent situation- because I feel at that point I would just immediately break up if that happened. The more I have to work like this to pay the rent the less likely I am to make progress in convincing her. Unless some intervening factor changes this I don't have many options and this relationship will continue in purgatory; I can either work to death to keep my kid sheltered or try to help my relationship. I don't think anyone would have the strength for both.

Edit: and again, bi-polar here so I might not feel as angry at her or helpless in the next 48 hours (I was definitely pushed today) but presently I don't believe I can go any further with the conversation unless at least one stresser is taken away.

[SaltyDawg]

Thank you, Saltydawg. I appreciate your input as someone in the thick of it.
You are welcome, I am giving my input from my perspective, and what works in my particular situation.  Yours is definitely different that mine.  I would expect you to listen, and use only the portions that are relevant to your situation.

I'll have to keep making tactical movements where I approach her when she's calm and then run for cover. Much of the reason why I lock myself away is at one point she agitated me to the point where I experienced for the first time ever in my life homicidal ideation (Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) Rev and Kells I didn't withhold this information I simply forgot until today) as opposed to suicidal, and a couple days after I told her as much, which mysteriously didn't phase her or anger her nearly as much as when I accidentally used our only cash to start the washer instead of the dryer.

I hear you that you have your own issues especially with a homicidal ideation [towards her?].  This is very concerning to me, and now I can understand why you would completely block the venom being directed at you, rather than deferring that venom to a time when you are less triggered.  Her ability to 'push' your buttons, and make you react towards her is extremely triggering for you and I can understand avoiding this information at 'all costs'. 

I talked to my psychiatrist about it as well and he agreed distance was a good idea for the foreseeable future.
I am glad that you have talked to your psychiatrist about this.  Please be sure to bring up these feelings again with him for as long as you are having them.  Make arrangement for extra sessions to deal with this if these homicidal ideations continue.

With regards to your 'homicidal ideation' -- DO NOT ACT ON THIS IN ANY WAY OR FORM!  You will be reducing yourself to her level, and perhaps even beyond.  You are much better than that.  If you follow through on it, it will ruin your life, it will end her life, and it will leave your son without both parents, as one will be incarcerated, and the other will be dead.  I have personal experience with this from my own step brother who did exactly that.  He is rotting away in jail right now, his wife is dead, and their daughter fortunately has been adopted by her uncle, after she lost both parents with one being the murderer and other being murdered - I also offered to their take her into my family and was part of the custody hearing; however, the killer's daughter is much better off with the uncle that took her in, in light of my uBPDw's issues.

The reasoning why I suggested keeping and reading them after you were no longer triggered, was to gain additional insight into her thought processes when you were less triggered at her and can process that information more effectively.  I do this with my wife's communication towards me, and I often can gain additional insight into her thought processes in order to avoid triggering her even further.

She is most approachable when our kid is at school because then she doesn't have to constantly watch him. Because of his behavioral problems she becomes a lot more unpredictable and volatile. If I had brought it up in front of the child she would have done everything possible to harm my emotionally/mentally and additionally she'd use the boy as a weapon as well.

I get it, I hear you, she is a manipulative .  You CANNOT let this 'get to you'.  Please remain calm.  You recognize when she is more triggered, and you also recognize when you yourself are more triggered, this is a good thing as you don't want to lose control of your own emotions, nor do you want her to lose control of hers.  Keep your priority on your child, as he is the more 'innocent victim' in all of this.  Do what is right for your son.  Do take care of your own issues, as only you can do that for yourself - being with a psychiatrist is an excellent way to do this, please talk to your psychiatrist about this.

So I dunno SaltyDawg- I get the feeling my progress will likely be way slower than yours. Part of the reason I decided to act now as opposed to later is the rent situation- because I feel at that point I would just immediately break up if that happened. The more I have to work like this to pay the rent the less likely I am to make progress in convincing her. Unless some intervening factor changes this I don't have many options and this relationship will continue in purgatory; I can either work to death to keep my kid sheltered or try to help my relationship. I don't think anyone would have the strength for both.

Perhaps it will be slower.  Perhaps, it can go faster if you can think outside of the box, and come up with a creative solution?  Do what is best for both you, and your child.  Keeping your son sheltered is very important.  I get it, it really sucks supporting everyone with no reward, and working your $$ off only to have nothing to show for it, including no emotional rewards. 

Keep talking, keep venting, do not act on your impulses, keep a cool head, and do the right thing for your son, and yourself.

Take care.  Do self-care too.  Clear your head, and choose DBT Wise Mind in these matters.

[mcgoggles]

Okay,

I regret vocalizing the homicidal ideation bit, since it makes me appear like an unreliable narrator.
I haven't had that occur since that time (roughly 2-3 months ago) and it hasn't happened since. If I wasn't in depressed mode from the earlier confrontation I likely wouldn't have even divulged it- mood stabilizers don't always keep away depression, especially under stress.

I messed up. I finally had enough and I gave her an ultimatum of: go to therapy, we go to couples' therapy or we are getting divorced.
What happened next over the next 90 minutes was terrifying. She screamed, she got in my face. She told me I never wanted to be with her and that I don't care about her and the boy, which made him cry. She cradled him as he cried and she told me to leave. She reminded him (and does so) that I initially asked for us to have an abortion when she was pregnant. She has always reminded me of this and says it in front of him.
I told her that I wasn't leaving and that if I didn't care I wouldn't be telling her she needs help. When I wouldn't go to my room, she grabbed my neck and hit me- I shoved her, which she then used as proof that I'm violent. When I re-iterated she needs to get help she just made a terrifying screeching sound at me. She said she was taking the boy with her and that he wanted to be with her and I regret what I did next.

I divulged to her what my son once told me while she was away with a friend; he said he wanted her to go away and just him and I to be together- to which I told him neither of us want that. She turned to him and asked it this was true. He nodded 'yes' and then turned on him. She crumpled up his permission slip he was supposed to take to school (he forgot today) gave him his evening meds early and sent him to bed early while he cried.

She got her coat, said she wasn't coming back and hoped she'd get hit by a bus, then walked out the door. I knew she wouldn't be gone for long so I made sure to comfort the boy and reassure him his mom didn't hate him but that she was sick. I've had to tell him this before. 10 minutes later she tells me she's gonna text her dad (and likely her brother) to come and hurt me. She tells the boy that he can figure out how to make his food and go to school and make doctors appointments because she's washing her hands of him.

He did cry but fell asleep soon after. She came into my room, told me she was done with dealing with us two "a*s holes* and that she was finally living for herself.


This was all horrible. Somehow I stayed calm during this. Why I was so calm I don't know- could be because I didn't want the boy to be afraid any more than he already was, could be that I can't see her now as anything but a extremely ill person who I feel bad for, or it could be that I was scared of her.

I recorded multiple times during the altercation. I've been recording for the past couple days.

If I could have her voluntarily committed at this point I would; but I'd just be doing that to feel safe and not to help her.

So yeah. I've consistently let fear or emotions get the better of me throughout all this and it got way worse than I was prepared for.
I got work tomorrow. Because of how much she was yelling that meds/psychology arent real and don't work I'm taking my med bottles with me to work tomorrow. I'm also taking the laptop I was just given by my caseworkers because I worry she would I either look through my history or simply break it.

I'm going to talk to my uncle tomorrow since he's been asking me to keep him informed, and also because he's been taking care of his wife who is mentally ill. Either because of her, or her family I'm a little scared right now.

[kells76]

Hey, glad to see you posting again. It takes guts to be honest with others about everything you're going through, not just the "tidy" feelings.

While I can't write back at length right now, I wanted you to know I saw your post.

You and your son ok to make it thru the night? Does he have school tomorrow?

-kells76

[mcgoggles]

He's got school. I know her well enough to know she'll take him but she won't be very patient. Borderlines flip I know at some point tomorrow she'll be congenial- might even try to be as loving as possible to prove she loves him more than me.

For the time being I have to pretend like I'm not scared. I'm going to work like normal, I'll come home, go to my room and go to sleep. I really REALLY doubt it'll happen, but if I come home to see that her and the boy are gone Ill be notifying my uncle who will be notifying a lawyer.

[SinisterComplex]

Okay,

I regret vocalizing the homicidal ideation bit, since it makes me appear like an unreliable narrator.
I haven't had that occur since that time (roughly 2-3 months ago) and it hasn't happened since. If I wasn't in depressed mode from the earlier confrontation I likely wouldn't have even divulged it- mood stabilizers don't always keep away depression, especially under stress.

I messed up. I finally had enough and I gave her an ultimatum of: go to therapy, we go to couples' therapy or we are getting divorced.
What happened next over the next 90 minutes was terrifying. She screamed, she got in my face. She told me I never wanted to be with her and that I don't care about her and the boy, which made him cry. She cradled him as he cried and she told me to leave. She reminded him (and does so) that I initially asked for us to have an abortion when she was pregnant. She has always reminded me of this and says it in front of him.
I told her that I wasn't leaving and that if I didn't care I wouldn't be telling her she needs help. When I wouldn't go to my room, she grabbed my neck and hit me- I shoved her, which she then used as proof that I'm violent. When I re-iterated she needs to get help she just made a terrifying screeching sound at me. She said she was taking the boy with her and that he wanted to be with her and I regret what I did next.

I divulged to her what my son once told me while she was away with a friend; he said he wanted her to go away and just him and I to be together- to which I told him neither of us want that. She turned to him and asked it this was true. He nodded 'yes' and then turned on him. She crumpled up his permission slip he was supposed to take to school (he forgot today) gave him his evening meds early and sent him to bed early while he cried.

She got her coat, said she wasn't coming back and hoped she'd get hit by a bus, then walked out the door. I knew she wouldn't be gone for long so I made sure to comfort the boy and reassure him his mom didn't hate him but that she was sick. I've had to tell him this before. 10 minutes later she tells me she's gonna text her dad (and likely her brother) to come and hurt me. She tells the boy that he can figure out how to make his food and go to school and make doctors appointments because she's washing her hands of him.

He did cry but fell asleep soon after. She came into my room, told me she was done with dealing with us two "a*s holes* and that she was finally living for herself.


This was all horrible. Somehow I stayed calm during this. Why I was so calm I don't know- could be because I didn't want the boy to be afraid any more than he already was, could be that I can't see her now as anything but a extremely ill person who I feel bad for, or it could be that I was scared of her.

I recorded multiple times during the altercation. I've been recording for the past couple days.

If I could have her voluntarily committed at this point I would; but I'd just be doing that to feel safe and not to help her.

So yeah. I've consistently let fear or emotions get the better of me throughout all this and it got way worse than I was prepared for.
I got work tomorrow. Because of how much she was yelling that meds/psychology arent real and don't work I'm taking my med bottles with me to work tomorrow. I'm also taking the laptop I was just given by my caseworkers because I worry she would I either look through my history or simply break it.

I'm going to talk to my uncle tomorrow since he's been asking me to keep him informed, and also because he's been taking care of his wife who is mentally ill. Either because of her, or her family I'm a little scared right now.

MCG I am happy to see you back posting. Hey we are all human. None of us are perfect. All of us F up from time to time. S happens. You owned it, you are accountable so we move forward.

I can understand why you would feel regret, but in truth being open and honest is still the way to go. Please do not think of yourself as an unreliable narrator. I do not think that way or feel that way at all. I think you are just under a lot of stress and have been put through the ringer. We are here as support to help you and keep you as safe as we can. So please don't think any less of yourself. My friend remember we get it here...the intensity of the tsunami like wave of emotions you are going through...we've been there. So no judgment from us okay.

So I am going to throw some humor in here and paraphrase Tech N9ne here with "Hennessy and Light Beer and let it enter me and fight fear...yeah." In no way, shape or form am I saying to get hammered off your $$ with alcohol as it sounds like...   , but the intent behind the lyrics is where I am going to derive my thought process for you...let the current resolve you have developed enter you and guide you moving forward to fight your fears so you may persevere through this ordeal.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[yellowbutterfly]

. Because of how much she was yelling that meds/psychology arent real and don't work I'm taking my med bottles with me to work tomorrow. I'm also taking the laptop I was just given by my caseworkers because I worry she would I either look through my history or simply break

Smart! Take your important meds, laptop, papers with you or to work. My stbx H used to steal mine and hold them hostage or erase stuff from my laptop. I got sick once bc he stole my medication.

I’m sorry you’re going through this.

[babyducks]

hello mcgoogles,

I've been following along with your posts and saw the recent events.   I am terribly sorry it went this way.   That had to be horrible for all of you but especially the child.

I messed up. I finally had enough and I gave her an ultimatum of: go to therapy, we go to couples' therapy or we are getting divorced.
What happened next over the next 90 minutes was terrifying. She screamed, she got in my face.

I don't mind saying I had a pretty visceral reaction to reading this.   I often underestimated how far and how fast things could escalate in my relationship.  Over and over again I acted (and thought) in ways that assumed I was dealing with someone with normal/controlled coping mechanisms.    I wasn't.   and I paid the price for that.

I know this is water over the dam now.   Still, I think there are lessons to be learned from this,... if you can maneuver yourself into a quiet space emotionally and mentally.   What strikes me is that when you approach her from a place of frustration you do not get the kind of outcome that you want or is safe for the family.

She told me I never wanted to be with her and that I don't care about her and the boy, which made him cry. She cradled him as he cried and she told me to leave. She reminded him (and does so) that I initially asked for us to have an abortion when she was pregnant. She has always reminded me of this and says it in front of him.

This is tragic.   and so harmful to the family dynamic.   I am so sorry you went through that.

I told her that I wasn't leaving and that if I didn't care I wouldn't be telling her she needs help. When I wouldn't go to my room, she grabbed my neck and hit me- I shoved her, which she then used as proof that I'm violent. When I re-iterated she needs to get help she just made a terrifying screeching sound at me.

Physical safety is the highest priority.   Those of us who lived through violent incidents can attest to how fast the flash point is reached and how out of control things got.   

You and the boy are safe now?   Is that correct?    Can you think of ways to maintain that safety if things go off the rails again?

She said she was taking the boy with her and that he wanted to be with her and I regret what I did next.

I divulged to her what my son once told me while she was away with a friend; he said he wanted her to go away and just him and I to be together- to which I told him neither of us want that. She turned to him and asked it this was true. He nodded 'yes' and then turned on him. She crumpled up his permission slip he was supposed to take to school (he forgot today) gave him his evening meds early and sent him to bed early while he cried.

Our friends who regularly post on the Conflicted/Divorcing/Co-Parenting boards tell us of being held accountable for not creating/maintaining a healthy and safe environment for their children.     There are members there who have lost custody of their children by exposing them to the intense strife of their romantic relationship.     

Please take a couple of deep breaths and take this into consideration.    I understand you feel under enormous pressure to improve your immediate financial situation.    But I would suggest you don't want to push this so hard now that you make things worse in the long run.

This was all horrible. Somehow I stayed calm during this. Why I was so calm I don't know- could be because I didn't want the boy to be afraid any more than he already was, could be that I can't see her now as anything but a extremely ill person who I feel bad for, or it could be that I was scared of her.

This was horrible.   Completely horrible.   It's good that you stayed as calm as possible during this.    I do want to say that a reasonable amount of healthy fear is a good thing.   pwBPD do not have large amounts of impulse control.   I know you understand this.    In the heat of the moment, there are no brakes to apply to stop the progression.

There is an old saying here.   For things to get better, they first have to stop getting worse.    Sounds simple but really it means there has to be a cooling off period, where everyone's emotional reactivity calms down.    Right now everyone's emotions are so heightened real progress is probably not possible.

So yeah. I've consistently let fear or emotions get the better of me throughout all this and it got way worse than I was prepared for.
 
I'm going to talk to my uncle tomorrow since he's been asking me to keep him informed, and also because he's been taking care of his wife who is mentally ill. Either because of her, or her family I'm a little scared right now.

I do hope you talk to your uncle.    and any other trusted friends, advisors, or caseworkers.    and I hope you take their advice on board.    when our fear and emotions get the better of us, we often don't act in our own best interests.   we can't see the forest through the trees so to speak.   we become so focused on getting our point across that we risk damaging ourselves.   we've all done that to some degree.

my two cents
'ducks

[mcgoggles]

I spoke to her LPC friend again last night. She's also very concerned. She advised me to start reaching out to his doctors about her possibly having BPD. She also advised me on what to do if it should get to the point where I need to have her involuntarily committed.  Last night I slept with the door locked and a pair of scissors beside the bed. Dunno if this was this was necessary or this was my anxiety saying I was in this much danger, but I felt safer.

Woke up, went to work. After work stuck around longer than I needed to talk to my uncle at work- also cause I was afraid of going home. My uncle wasn't available until I was home. I quietly walked in. She was watching shows. No talking. I went to my room, hid under the covers and waited till my uncle was ready to talk. When we finally did talk he asked me a series of questions (he does this every time) about what happened, do we have somewhere else to stay if we get separated. He then asked my why I was hiding talking to him. I told him because I was afraid. He said that I need to be more assertive and stop hiding things like talking to my family. He said if I'm gonna talk to him to let her know. If she can hear through the wall then go outside. He suggested I start talking to my sister about this as well. I'm not especially thrilled about talking to my family about this because out of religious reasons (and just plain different upbringings) they were never truly thrilled about me with her. I can be extremely prideful and I don't want to have to admit to the people who weren't supportive in the first place that they were right.

When I heard them come home after he was off the bus I heard her yelling. He did something inappropriate at his after-school program. She wouldn't tell me what happened (says I don't care so she's not saying) but previously he got in trouble for exposing himself to other kids- he did this with one my friend's daughter too so they don't come over anymore. Apparently he also lost his school laptop which caused her to fly into a rage. She was already bringing up why he chose me over her and guilted him over it. She's sent him to his room for the rest of the night. I don't know if she'll let him eat since he's usually not hungry this late but if he asks she'll probably let him. After last night I am afraid to intervene if she'll treat him worse for it.

Not going to lie, I was afraid walking home (I take the city bus) and while this might be dramatic I recorded a video of me saying if something happens to me, she and her family are the ones responsible- and that his god-parent and my family will be the ones to take care of him. It's currently in my facebook drafts. I like comics and one thing I learned from Batman is to have a failsafe for everything.

And because of my mood disorder(s) I could be letting my emotions cloud my judgement- I don't necessarily want to divorce which is why I gave the ultimatum of therapy. I want him to have his mom because he still loves her and when she's herself she loves him more than anything in the world.

Right now I'm in my room, he's cleaning his room and she's loudly singing music to herself on the living room couch in the dark

Also: she and him will be going out to the park etc with his grandfather tomorrow. We were supposed to go to a ballet that our friend bought tickets for back in December, but because I forgot to mention that it was just going to be us three and not them until yesterday she got very upset and said they'd do this instead. This was what initiated the whole thing last night because I'm just so tired of her squandering the kindness of our friends. This same friend was help paying our rent when I was unemployed, and was the first of our friends to see my child at the hospital so this was the final straw.

edit- thank god she made him eat before bed.

[Rev]

Hi there McGoogles,

I too am really happy to see you posting.

I just wanted you to know that I've been reading also.

Keep hanging in there and do what you need to do to stay safe.  

It sounds like you have some people to talk to and I would encourage you to keep talking to them too.  You never know when someone comes upon the next right thing to do.

What, if anything, can we offer you here to help keep your morale up?  And what do you think about some of the other advice or insights you've recieved here?

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

McGoogle's

Nice to see you posting again, taking ownership for the homicidal ideation bit that happened a while ago.

Keep venting, keep talking, you are in a very hard place right now, and you have had more than your fair share of bad treatment, especially since you have your own mood disorder which makes it that much more difficult for you.

I can understand your fear with you locking yourself into your room with a pair of scissors for defense.  My main concern is the boy is also locked into the same room with you, or is he elsewhere and vulnerable to her attack?  Please make sure the boy is safe from these extreme behaviors.

Do protect your medications, protect the laptop, record irrational behavior, and follow the advice of those who care for you.

The boy's behavior is also very disturbing to me that you have shared [exposing himself and other issues at school].  Does he have his own individual therapist too?  If not, I strongly recommend that you consider seeing if you can find one on your limited income for one.  Talk to your own provider for the best options that are available to you.  Also the guidance counselor at the school is a good resource, as is the public health department.  Don't give up on getting help for the boy as well as yourself, and herself too.  I've been very fortunate to find therapists that are willing to work with fixed/limited income and waiving the copay.  Being very persistent in finding help, has paid off big for me, out of pocket expenses for what I am using is about $120/month for thousands worth of services every month, but I do have good insurance, grants, gifts, cover the rest.  This is a definite case where the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Knowing what to advocate for, who to talk to, where to go, network with others with similar circumstances to get the best possible care that you can get access to.

Having to go to family members who previously told you 'that your relationship was not a good idea,' is extremely humbling [embarassing]; however, you do need to get help and support for your situation, with your sister, and other family members - do what it takes to do the right thing.  Hopefully they can have some grace for your situation, and if they don't, you need to discern who has your interests at heart, and who doesn't and lean on those who are most sympathetic to your situation.

It is tough, an expression that I learned of a few months ago comes to mind...

"If you are going through hell.  Then, keep going..."

Keep going until you find out what works for your and the boy.

Take care of yourself with self care, take care of the boy, and if you have any left over take care of her too.

[babyducks]

Hello mcgoggles,

Dunno if this was this was necessary or this was my anxiety saying I was in this much danger, but I felt safer.

This is a really good insight,  I'm glad you mentioned it.     Here is why.    One of the things that is important for us to learn is how to interrupt your own negative responses.    That may sound simple, but it certainly isn't.

I think, you and your family are stuck in a very stressful, high-tension cycle of conflict.     I think it would be a good idea to start to talk about how to break this cycle of conflict.   

Everyone arrives here in crisis.   With horrible arguments that go around and around and never resolve.    We've all done that.    and its has been pointed out to all of us that we need to stop the conflict before we can make progress with changing the relationship.

at the top of this message board is a thread called "LESSONS"   its always pined there so you can find it at any time.    inside the LESSONS thread is the collected wisdom of this group over the years of its existence.   I'm going to point out one of those lessons:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

it talks about making a commitment to ending the conflict and the arguments that are ripping things apart.   and how once you've made that commitment practicing alternative reactions, so that in situations of high negative emotions you do not contribute to the damage any longer.     this qoute is from that article:

When we are in the middle of enduring a verbal attack from someone else; our own reaction feels impulsive; like an unpredictable and overbearing urge. However; realistically; a lot of these situations are quite predictable. How many times have you had that fight? How many times has your partner said that particular hurtful and provocative thing? Look descriptively at previous problems: what did your partner do that resulted in your emotions going through the roof to the point where you had urges to retaliate? We will call those things triggers because they trigger your response.

Take a look at the article when you are ready please.    Hopefully it will help you think about your triggers and alternative responses to them.

When we finally did talk he asked me a series of questions (he does this every time) about what happened, do we have somewhere else to stay if we get separated.

Do you have someplace else to stay if things become violent again?

She was already bringing up why he chose me over her and guilted him over it. She's sent him to his room for the rest of the night. I don't know if she'll let him eat since he's usually not hungry this late but if he asks she'll probably let him. After last night I am afraid to intervene if she'll treat him worse for it.

I think the idea from the LPC was a good one.   the one about reaching out to his doctors and medical team to up the level of support he is getting right now.    How would you go about that?    Right now the people who are meant to support him as parents are challenged to do that effectively.    Is there a way to get him a break from the stress and tension in the household?

'ducks

[mcgoggles]

I agree that conflict resolution is a good idea. That being said she continues to sending angry texts or tiktok videos about spouses who are "sick and tired" of their partner pulling their own weight. Regardless of that I've made it clear that therapy is non-negotiable.
She doesn't let the boy interact with me, but whenever I pass him I smile and wave, I sneak in hugs.

I am going to go out to the park or maybe a coffee shop today. I will invite her and/or the boy but if she refuses- even if she accuses me of infidelity or a lack of love- I'm still doing it. Until she takes that step, I am living regardless of how she feels about it.

[Rev]

I agree that conflict resolution is a good idea. That being said she continues to sending angry texts or tiktok videos about spouses who are "sick and tired" of their partner pulling their own weight. Regardless of that I've made it clear that therapy is non-negotiable.
She doesn't let the boy interact with me, but whenever I pass him I smile and wave, I sneak in hugs.

I am going to go out to the park or maybe a coffee shop today. I will invite her and/or the boy but if she refuses- even if she accuses me of infidelity or a lack of love- I'm still doing it. Until she takes that step, I am living regardless of how she feels about it.

Hey McGoogles,

Really like what I am reading here - not because I'm an expert or anything. I just conveys a sense of peace and self affirmation in the middle of a really, really challenging situation.

It just wanted to affirm that - and say thank you for sharing your thoughts here.

Hang in there.

Rev

[babyducks]

She doesn't let the boy interact with me, but whenever I pass him I smile and wave, I sneak in hugs.

hello again mcgoggles,

could you say more about how she doesn't let the boy interact with you?    I undestand from your earlier posts that this is your son who is about seven and has ADHD?   

how does your son seem to be coping with this estrangement?   how is he doing?

I hope you did get out to the park or a coffee shop, something to give you a bit of a break and a distraction.

if she continues to send you angry texts or tiktok videos,  I would encourage you to avoid the conflict,   after all it takes two to fight and when you fight with your wife, you always come out the worse for it.

'ducks

[mcgoggles]

hello again mcgoggles,

could you say more about how she doesn't let the boy interact with you?    I undestand from your earlier posts that this is your son who is about seven and has ADHD?    

how does your son seem to be coping with this estrangement?   how is he doing?

I hope you did get out to the park or a coffee shop, something to give you a bit of a break and a distraction.

if she continues to send you angry texts or tiktok videos,  I would encourage you to avoid the conflict,  after all it takes two to fight and when you fight with your wife, you always come out the worse for it.

'ducks

Whenever I talk to the boy or try to help him she yells "don't talk to him" or "leave him alone". He still sneaks in hugs and smiles at me, like it's a shared secret. Her logic is because I don't want to be around her, that I got to sleep after work and that I spend so much time around her, that I never cared about the him- I suspect after the boy said he wanted to live with me and not her that she's determined to estrange him from me but that's only based on her actions and I can't truly know the motivation. He does parrot her sometimes "dad messed it up" or "dad's a POS". But at the same time he's very sad to see me leave and he clearly tries to interact with or else she wouldn't be demanding he not. His behavior is still as troubling as ever. He yells, he curses, he throws fits and he gets easily upset. Often he gets discouraged from trying to do something and he starts to cry.
As with many kids with ODD/ADHD he makes repetitious noises to intentionally antagonize everyone. One very concerning noise, that he learned from a kid named [name] in his class, was a high pitched moan that without going into too much detail was likely from pornography. Our son made the noise a lot, which got him into trouble at school and his afterschool program. I suspect because he feeds off reaction that is why he kept doing it. One thing my wife and I definitely agreed on was we didn't like [name] , although at the same time we realize the kid is mostly taken care of by his older siblings and isn't in a very good environment. Unfortunately because of the impoverished part of town we live in, my son has the potential to pick up a lot of troubling behavior simply because he'll get attention for it.

He stopped recently, very likely because my wife and I finally became immune- he also decided he didn't like or want to be around him since being around him has only lead to him getting in trouble. He also got expelled from him after-school program for exposing himself to his class again. He did this last year and got expelled then too.

As a matter-of-fact I did go out. Went to the local famers' market (it's a big, renovated old trolley station so lots of seating and space).

Also,  I got a phonecall from his psychologist's office. One of the assistants gave me an email to submit questions to discreetly, also a phone number I can call to get more information. At this point I'm not sure what to say or what to ask, because if I go down this road I can't really go back.

[babyducks]

hi mcgoggles,

I really enjoy the local farmers market here.   they have an amazing selection of really good products at reasonable prices.    it's like a mini holiday when I go.  I'm glad you got out for while.

Also,  I got a phonecall from his psychologist's office. One of the assistants gave me an email to submit questions to discreetly, also a phone number I can call to get more information. At this point I'm not sure what to say or what to ask, because if I go down this road I can't really go back.

this is interesting.    what sort of questions are you thinking about?   what are your concerns about sharing information?

'ducks

[mcgoggles]

Well, I sent an email last night because they said they were expecting one from me today.
I did my best not to elaborate but I did say my wife may not necessarily be capable of giving all the details about my son's behavior since it could reflect bad on her- which is entirely true. I asked how much she's told them so far, I asked for digression and clarified I was not trying to be cryptic, just extremely careful.

I am trying to make sure that:
1) that she doesn't know that I'm doing this
2) CPS aren't called to take the boy away. Since I've allowed her behavior to continue her LPC friend explained there is minor chance that I could be considered complicit in this abusive behavior. 
3)my son gets all the help he needs and
4)the psychologist could potentially refer my wife -or insist- she get help.

[BigEasyHeart]

She is not.  Like many borderlines, she mistrusts conventional medicine-

I just want to echo what others are saying first. I'm so sorry for what you are going through and welcome.

I'm also curious about your statement that many borderlines mistrust conventional medicine. I'd like to know more about this. Is this an impression you have or did you find this from some source about BPD? I'm asking because I also noticed this in my ex and I'd like to know more about the link to this lack of trust in conventional medication and bpd.

[Rev]

I just want to echo what others are saying first. I'm so sorry for what you are going through and welcome.

I'm also curious about your statement that many borderlines mistrust conventional medicine. I'd like to know more about this. Is this an impression you have or did you find this from some source about BPD? I'm asking because I also noticed this in my ex and I'd like to know more about the link to this lack of trust in conventional medication and bpd.

I think it would be safe to say that it's a question of mistrusting anything that makes one vulnerable.

[mcgoggles]

I just want to echo what others are saying first. I'm so sorry for what you are going through and welcome.

I'm also curious about your statement that many borderlines mistrust conventional medicine. I'd like to know more about this. Is this an impression you have or did you find this from some source about BPD? I'm asking because I also noticed this in my ex and I'd like to know more about the link to this lack of trust in conventional medication and bpd.

I agree with Rev ^^^ but also based on my experiences they feel very threatened by anything that is making them change. Going to a doctor in their mind means something is perceived as wrong or defective about them. Something important to note about the lack of trust is psychology, again based on my experiences, is that it takes away a choice to feel and say what they want. Even IF she knew she could change for the better, in her current state of mind she desires the freedom to think as many bad thoughts and say as many bad things as she wishes- even it causes her to suffer- because it's her choice. The promise of a better life after therapy feels coerced to her.

[babyducks]

it sounds like you have a good plan and a good first step with the email.     any response yet?

One note I would like to make.

4)the psychologist could potentially refer my wife -or insist- she get help.

depending on where you live, and what your local laws, regulations and resources are like it might not be possible to insist she gets help.   

my experience, here where I am, it was nearly impossible to involuntarily commit someone, unless there was an immediate physical danger to themselves or others, that hold was usually 72 hours, and often made the situation worse because nothing effective could be done in 72 hours.    forced psychiatric treatment had to be court ordered and only happened after a violent incident.  verbal altercations didn't rise to level of mandated treatment.    your situation might be different.   but here, mental health professionals are over booked and hard to come by.

Even IF she knew she could change for the better, in her current state of mind she desires the freedom to think as many bad thoughts and say as many bad things as she wishes- even it causes her to suffer- because it's her choice. The promise of a better life after therapy feels coerced to her.

Hmmm.    this is interesting.    if therapy feels coerced to her, threatening even.   if going to the doctor means she is defective, how does this work with the ultimatum you gave that she needs to seek therapy?    how do you envision these two different emotions functioning together?

[mcgoggles]

Hmmm.    this is interesting.    if therapy feels coerced to her, threatening even.   if going to the doctor means she is defective, how does this work with the ultimatum you gave that she needs to seek therapy?    how do you envision these two different emotions functioning together?

I haven't thought that far ahead because frankly I find her feelings on the matter inconsequential. I have already explained how it would help our finance, then I explained how it could help her succeed. If these don't matter to her then I'm flipping the empathy switch off. I know her bottom line, which is she's afraid living a depressed impoverished life like she did as a child I'm making it clear she isn't get that unless she chooses seeing a therapist.

[Rev]

I haven't thought that far ahead because frankly I find her feelings on the matter inconsequential. I have already explained how it would help our finance, then I explained how it could help her succeed. If these don't matter to her then I'm flipping the empathy switch off. I know her bottom line, which is she's afraid living a depressed impoverished life like she did as a child I'm making it clear she isn't get that unless she chooses seeing a therapist.

Hi McGoogles,

I find the question Ducks asks interesting because it points to achieving the outcomes that you seem to be hoping for.

If we take this one step further,;

How do you see therapy helping if your wife is only going to go to stave off what appears to be her greatest fear?  

Maybe I'm missing something?  That could be too.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

Hi McGoogles,

I find the question Ducks asks interesting because it points to achieving the outcomes that you seem to be hoping for.

If we take this one step further,;

How do you see therapy helping if your wife is only going to go to stave off what appears to be her greatest fear?  

Maybe I'm missing something?  That could be too.

Rev

The prospect of better finances is only to get her in the door. The next goal is after DBT (maybe meds too?) she start to understand what it feels like to be a human outside that world in her head.

[babyducks]

I haven't thought that far ahead because frankly I find her feelings on the matter inconsequential.

There was a member here a while back who often used to ask "what lies ahead down that road for you?".    It was his way of exploring what might be just ahead if the current situation wasn't altered in some way.

I think his approach was often helpful because most of us are so caught up in the crisis of the day, or the urgent requirements of the moment that we don't have the bandwidth to think about 3 weeks from now,   3 months from now, 3 years from now.

Regardless of what happens with your wife, if she enters therapy or not, or if she is successful with therapy or not, you are always going to have some type of relationship with her because of your son.   You will be co-parenting for quite some time to come.

I would suggest you consider maintaining some level of cooperation with her, so that you could co parent.

'ducks

[Rev]

The prospect of better finances is only to get her in the door. The next goal is after DBT (maybe meds too?) she start to understand what it feels like to be a human outside that world in her head.

Along the lines of the question of what lies ahead for you - I'd like to add the following :

What needs to change in your personal arsenal of tools to make this journey?  This is meant to be a strategic question - not one that says "How does McGoogles fix McGoogles".  And clearly something is going to come to a head.

I continue to think about how much you love your son and the corner you appear to be painted in. Threading a needle in a haystack perhaps, and yet - thread you must it would appear.

Something isn't sitting with me in hoping she goes to counseling under duress. The conventional wisdom is that only escalates things.  I am wondering if the advice Ducks gives isn't the wiser path.

What do you think?

Hang in there. Reach out any time.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

I don't have an answer at the moment. I was only prepared for either she does this or we split up and I go to the courts to keep her away from him until she does so. If the scenario turns out to be that we're separated but she still gets joint custody I don't view that as any kind resolution because she will still have influence over him. There is no immediate exit strategy that would allow me to keep the boy AND be on the career path I want.
I am back to square one.

[mcgoggles]

Also- today is sort of sunny out. She wanted to take him out, maybe go to the park or something. I don't know if it was his idea to go and ask me if I should accompany or hers but I heard her say "it's up to dad". Normally she doesn't like to go anywhere by herself and only goes out if I accompany her, which still results in complaining a lot and criticizing me. I said "no" this time. I will stay home and do the chores she said neither of us do.

We went out together on my last day off. It was supposed to be just me and him, but she insisted on going along since she doesn't want me to go out for long periods of time with him anymore in case I'm trying to turn him against her.
While I'm not pleased about saying no to him, she doesn't get to force my hand anymore. Additionally, she's been starting to act as though that night where she threatened didn't happen and I don't want her thinking the relationship is going to go back to the way she's always decided it to be anymore.

[Rev]

I don't have an answer at the moment. I was only prepared for either she does this or we split up and I go to the courts to keep her away from him until she does so. If the scenario turns out to be that we're separated but she still gets joint custody I don't view that as any kind resolution because she will still have influence over him. There is no immediate exit strategy that would allow me to keep the boy AND be on the career path I want.
I am back to square one.

Right - and by the sounds of your next post - where you say that she doesn't just get to dictate any more, it sounds that while you may be back to square one with the relationship - you may not be be back to square one with yourself.

I am wondering if you may notice something that has shifted in you in terms of your own self perception? (A fancy way about how much self-respect your are allowing yourself - or something along those lines_

Are you feeling any different and if so, how?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

I am wondering if you may notice something that has shifted in you in terms of your own self perception? (A fancy way about how much self-respect your are allowing yourself - or something along those lines_

Are you feeling any different and if so, how?

Well, somehow I feel more positive more often. While I'm no less physically tired I don't feel as mentally exhausted

[Rev]

Well, somehow I feel more positive more often. While I'm no less physically tired I don't feel as mentally exhausted

So stay with it - because memory is stored in the body - you need to give your body time to catch up to your mind. And if you keep your eye focused on the next right thing - this will continue.

Keep on keeping on my friend... keep on keeping on.

Rev

[babyducks]

I don't have an answer at the moment. I was only prepared for either she does this or we split up and I go to the courts to keep her away from him until she does so. If the scenario turns out to be that we're separated but she still gets joint custody I don't view that as any kind resolution because she will still have influence over him. There is no immediate exit strategy that would allow me to keep the boy AND be on the career path I want.
I am back to square one.

if you are looking for an exit strategy I would recommend you open a new post on the "Conflicted about Continuing /Divorcing"   board.

Each board here has a deliberately different environment.   This board is a safe space to work on improving the relationship.  members who regularly post on the Conflicted board have either exited the relationship or are unsure if they can continue.    The different populations might help broaden your perspectives.    Its perfectly okay to post on both boards.

'ducks

[kells76]

And to add on to the helpful suggestion from babyducks -- the "conflicted" board is also the "family law/custody" board, too. So it's perfectly fine both to be here on "bettering", working on making the relationship "less bad", and also to post on "conflicted" to learn about what to expect if a divorce were to happen.

Sometimes we have fears or beliefs about "how divorce has to go" or "this is inevitably how custody will be", that aren't true, and we can learn alternatives over on "conflicted" that can help us be less stressed and more skilled, and that are better for the kids.

[Rev]

And to add on to the helpful suggestion from babyducks -- the "conflicted" board is also the "family law/custody" board, too. So it's perfectly fine both to be here on "bettering", working on making the relationship "less bad", and also to post on "conflicted" to learn about what to expect if a divorce were to happen.

Sometimes we have fears or beliefs about "how divorce has to go" or "this is inevitably how custody will be", that aren't true, and we can learn alternatives over on "conflicted" that can help us be less stressed and more skilled, and that are better for the kids.

And to add again ... that experienced posters will be careful to follow guidelines so may in fact be holding back on offering insight.

What I really like about posting on both boards is it in of itself mirrors the conundrum you find yourself in - which direction do you follow?

My two cents

Rev

[mcgoggles]

I have no idea what's going to happen at the moment. Any solution to this is clearly going to take way longer than I thought, meaning I still have coexist with this version of my wife and I don't have any immediate method to solve my son's behavioral problems. I may want to take a break from posting until something significant happens because for the time being I'm coasting.

[Rev]

I have no idea what's going to happen at the moment. Any solution to this is clearly going to take way longer than I thought, meaning I still have coexist with this version of my wife and I don't have any immediate method to solve my son's behavioral problems. I may want to take a break from posting until something significant happens because for the time being I'm coasting.

Equally good idea.  One thing that I have noticed about you is that you have the capacity to share here, to engage what comes back, and make up your own mind about things. And that, ultimately, is your strong point.   Trust your intuition.  Everyone here will be happy to welcome you back if you take a break...

We're all rooting for you.

Rev

[mcgoggles]

Interactions still aren't pleasant lately. At the present I'm still recording our convos semi-daily.
She got mad that we have less money than she thought because so much of my checks are going towards rent. We were gonna get food from the local dollar store but when she learned we had less she said I wasn't communicating and decided she'll just eat "bread and peanut butter like she did as a kid" then told the boy we weren't eating because of me. I told if she doesn't like the lack of money to 'get a f-cking job', because unfortunately after years of this conversation the whole "we don't have money because you don't try hard" triggers me and it becomes my knee-jerk reaction to emotionally stab her for getting mad about something she could help prevent.

This isn't the most positive update but at the present I feel that we're only together out of obligation. Separating would mean ripping my son out of his school and disrupt his life. I also feel that if I moved to file for divorce her and her family would work immediately to take him and leave town. The other scenario would be my son having to witness his mother become emotionally distraught and lose her mind that she can't have her son. I'm slowly getting pulled back into the tar pit.

Also: I managed to speak to his therapist and shed a little more light on his behavior. She asked why I felt his mother would behave this way to omit certain details about his behavior, and why I'm being so secretive/careful. Though I couldn't ask her any questions about what the sessions have been like she reassured me that I was in my legal rights as the other parent to do this and she reassured me she wasn't under any obligation to tell my wife I reached out. I explained what her childhood was like, what the relationship has been like. I reassured her that the boy was in no danger, but that I could be. I told her to pay attention to my wife's behavior and mannerisms during the next session, since I work that day and I can't be there.
I really do want to be there, but my attendance has been piss-poor (getting better, haven't had any points recently) and so while I don't get to be there at the risk of losing my job the therapist said while she finds this inconvenient, I can still communicate with her this way. This is the one silver lining.

On a reddit someone said BPD stands for "Bad Person, Doomed" which while insensitive, is the most that modern psychological medicine seems to ensure 95% of the time.