A cautionary tale of why it’s not a good idea to bring uBPDp on a silent retreat

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Greetings all!
I want to share my experience to hopefully discourage others of bringing your loved one BPD on a retreat.
Here it goes, five days ago we checked into a lovely Zen retreat founded and developed by no other then famous matriarch of DBT- Marsha Linehan. Majority of people in attendance were members of mental health field, ranging from psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers and therapists. Since I completed one of dbt courses I was extended an invitation to join. To my surprise they have agreed for my uBPDh to attend as well. I was very antsy going in, since I was anticipating major blow ups. My uBPDh was simultaneously trying to quit smoking addiction of 17 years. Well ahead I prepared and packed detailed instructions with patches, gums and nicotine inhaler. I’m going to skip the details of the retreat which was univentful, other then some surprising emotions coming from me. It triggered memories and pains of years long trauma inflicted by unpdh through silent treatment. I was in duress for the few days. One of the options of the retreat were individual interviews with retreat master- also licences psychologist and a very well known successor of Linenhan institute. I really had high hopes for those interviews (knowing more about Zen now, what a silly expectation). My uBPDh only attended one mandatory session/interview and was instructed on breathing technique, that was it. He followed the rules to a T, while staying mostly in his room.
Today after breakfast the silence how was lifted and we had a few moments of clearing where we seemed at peace. As soon as we connected to internet and he saw that his stock was down several points, the rate wasn’t in his favour, he started turning dbt psychotic. Conversations about selling the house and becoming hermits, about “cutting down on my spendings”, about me making the changes financially otherwise he won’t speak to me, floored me. We just came out of the retreat a minute ago, where the whole focus on on mindfulness, practicing distress tolerance and taking eac moment as it comes virtually skipped pass him?.  He started walking away, asking me not to speak to him, the usual thing. This time, fresh off of my zen glow I didn’t follow to reinforce him, once we checked into our hotel for last night I announced that I’m going for a walk.
I spoke to his partner just now, who also had high hopes for this retreat, to which he shared an interesting observation which I want to share with you and hopefully get feedback.
According to my husband’s partner, who not only worked with him for 11 years, and knows him for 15 years, as well as lived with him at their job site, my husband has a reflex when it comes to me. He is able to be pleasant and composed with other people, except me. He is able to manage himself long enough until he comes home and has a mental break down, which consists of yelling, name calling, insults and put downs. The same partner also holds me accountable for being somewhat complicit and allowing to behave with me this way. He suggested for me not to accompany my unBPDh on any of the business trips and allow him a full freedom which consists of going out with men and participating in social activities (read bar hopping and drinking). He also calls my iBPDh effective at work and conifers the whole thing my fault.
Few things, I sense an overt manipulation on the partners side. It’s very convenient not to have the wife around to brainwash my uBPDh when it comes to financial decisions, and manipulate him through enabling his drinking and drug use. Yet, his words resonate with me in a way that it’s only me and the children that endure this ugly treatment. If life is just a moment, now and in a present, my life is a plane crush saga from one moment to the next. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life being somwbody’s Punching bag or a crying pillow. I’m vulnerable enough to admit that I’m exhausted my tool box and my emotional investment into these relationships.
One of the therapists who was sharing a breakfast with us said to me: I ask my patients partners if they have any dogs at home. When they reply “yes”, I ask them if they get annoyed that their pet doesn’t answer the phone when it rings. All of them reply “no”, then I present the next question, then why do you expect and get angry when the person who was this way all of your relationships doesn’t change?
Something to think about... .
On a different note, what do you think I should do with my presence with my uBPDh at his work site? You all know I am not fond of that, but we managed to keep it relatively crisis free this way for 5 months.

[snowglobe]

Greetings all!
I want to share my experience to hopefully discourage others of bringing your loved one BPD on a retreat.
Here it goes, five days ago we checked into a lovely Zen retreat founded and developed by no other then famous matriarch of DBT- Marsha Linehan. Majority of people in attendance were members of mental health field, ranging from psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers and therapists. Since I completed one of dbt courses I was extended an invitation to join. To my surprise they have agreed for my uBPDh to attend as well. I was very antsy going in, since I was anticipating major blow ups. My uBPDh was simultaneously trying to quit smoking addiction of 17 years. Well ahead I prepared and packed detailed instructions with patches, gums and nicotine inhaler. I’m going to skip the details of the retreat which was univentful, other then some surprising emotions coming from me. It triggered memories and pains of years long trauma inflicted by unpdh through silent treatment. I was in duress for the few days. One of the options of the retreat were individual interviews with retreat master- also licences psychologist and a very well known successor of Linenhan institute. I really had high hopes for those interviews (knowing more about Zen now, what a silly expectation). My uBPDh only attended one mandatory session/interview and was instructed on breathing technique, that was it. He followed the rules to a T, while staying mostly in his room.
Today after breakfast the silence how was lifted and we had a few moments of clearing where we seemed at peace. As soon as we connected to internet and he saw that his stock was down several points, the rate wasn’t in his favour, he started turning dbt psychotic. Conversations about selling the house and becoming hermits, about “cutting down on my spendings”, about me making the changes financially otherwise he won’t speak to me, floored me. We just came out of the retreat a minute ago, where the whole focus on on mindfulness, practicing distress tolerance and taking eac moment as it comes virtually skipped pass him?.  He started walking away, asking me not to speak to him, the usual thing. This time, fresh off of my zen glow I didn’t follow to reinforce him, once we checked into our hotel for last night I announced that I’m going for a walk.
I spoke to his partner just now, who also had high hopes for this retreat, to which he shared an interesting observation which I want to share with you and hopefully get feedback.
According to my husband’s partner, who not only worked with him for 11 years, and knows him for 15 years, as well as lived with him at their job site, my husband has a reflex when it comes to me. He is able to be pleasant and composed with other people, except me. He is able to manage himself long enough until he comes home and has a mental break down, which consists of yelling, name calling, insults and put downs. The same partner also holds me accountable for being somewhat complicit and allowing to behave with me this way. He suggested for me not to accompany my unBPDh on any of the business trips and allow him a full freedom which consists of going out with men and participating in social activities (read bar hopping and drinking). He also calls my iBPDh effective at work and conifers the whole thing my fault.
Few things, I sense an overt manipulation on the partners side. It’s very convenient not to have the wife around to brainwash my uBPDh when it comes to financial decisions, and manipulate him through enabling his drinking and drug use. Yet, his words resonate with me in a way that it’s only me and the children that endure this ugly treatment. If life is just a moment, now and in a present, my life is a plane crush saga from one moment to the next. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life being somwbody’s Punching bag or a crying pillow. I’m vulnerable enough to admit that I’m exhausted my tool box and my emotional investment into these relationships.
One of the therapists who was sharing a breakfast with us said to me: I ask my patients partners if they have any dogs at home. When they reply “yes”, I ask them if they get annoyed that their pet doesn’t answer the phone when it rings. All of them reply “no”, then I present the next question, then why do you expect and get angry when the person who was this way all of your relationships doesn’t change?
Something to think about... .
On a different note, what do you think I should do with my presence with my uBPDh at his work site? You all know I am not fond of that, but we managed to keep it relatively crisis free this way for 5 months.

[Chitchat]

What if life is not just a moment now and in the present?

[formflier]

I'm not a fan of you having discussions with the partner... .

It's still a bit unclear, but I think you are actually a partner in the business (is this correct?)... so perhaps it's necessary.

Here is the thing... .there is some truth and some obvious manipulation in what he was saying.

another way of saying it... .a broken clock is right two times a day... right?

Please take some time to figure out what YOU can do to live your life.  Then do that.

I would minimize the amount of time you spend trying to make a dog answer the phone... .

Funny thing is... .if you stopped pushing the dog to answer... .he just might do it one day.

FF

[snowglobe]

What if life is not just a moment now and in the present?

The whole dbt and Zen practice is founded on one assumption- in a very behaviouristic way, only now is real. The past is gone, and will not come back, the future is murky and unknown, who knows if it will happen. If you only live in a moment, you can be effective at changing the reality

[snowglobe]

I'm not a fan of you having discussions with the partner... .

It's still a bit unclear, but I think you are actually a partner in the business (is this correct?)... so perhaps it's necessary.

Here is the thing... .there is some truth and some obvious manipulation in what he was saying.

another way of saying it... .a broken clock is right two times a day... right?

Please take some time to figure out what YOU can do to live your life.  Then do that.

I would minimize the amount of time you spend trying to make a dog answer the phone... .

Funny thing is... .if you stopped pushing the dog to answer... .he just might do it one day.

FF

Dear Ff,
I was caught by “the partner” at a very vulnerable moment, which now, that I think back, I wish I didn’t open up about the experience.
I’m am not legally a partner in the company. My husband is an equal partner. My uBPDh frequently seeks my opinion and consult regarding business decisions.
Ff, how do I do that? How do I get my life in working order? When we come back tomorrow, I have to make a decision weither I stay “at home” or go back to “work” with him.
He is walking away from me, not looking at me, refusing to speak to our d15, who called and asked for dad to be put on the phone.

[formflier]

What possible good could come of spending time with someone that won't speak to you?

Seriously... .he is refusing to speak to you or your daughter.  Believe him...   Trust him...

That's his way of "saying" that talking would be worse... .let him go do his thing.

Nothing will change... unless something changes.  So... to directly answer your question... .change something.

If you life seems to be a mess... pick a "part" of it... and clean it up.  Then... pick another... and another.

FF

[Notwendy]

There has been a "drama triangle" with you, H and the partner. This is one episode in it.

I think the larger decision is you deciding to go home ( with your kids? ) or stay and emotionally manage your H in his business.

One major fear ( and reality ) is that your family's financial well being depends on his business, and he is more stable emotionally when you stay around to provide his emotional and physical needs.

It's a tough position to be in and a tough choice to make.

From reading your story though, I think it is good for the kids to be in a relatively stable situation with your parents. It seems when they are with the two of you, they are subjected to your H's moods and drama.  I know how hard it is to be apart from your own kids. People might be tempted to judge that, but ( from my own background ) I think it is a good thing on your part to have them in a stable situation.

When I was a kid, my Dad's family would have us stay with them over summers and school breaks. During these times we were free from my BPD mother's drama. It was wonderful to be away from that. I don't think it undermined our relationship with our father. ( BPD mom's issues were the main problem in our relationship with her) but it gave us a safe space and stable adults in our lives. Dad could manage his situation without worrying about us.

The children are probably fine with their grandparents. The question for you- is what about you? It's a tough choice to make. Also, if you go home, will you be introducing your H, with his issues and drug dependence into your children's lives more than he already is? How do your parents feel about this? If the kids are staying with them do they want him around? Also- what do the kids want to do? And although they are old enough to speak for themselves, is it actually best for them? Children will be attached to a parent- even an abusive one. However your daughter may be more aware of the situation at her age.

[snowglobe]

What possible good could come of spending time with someone that won't speak to you?

Seriously... .he is refusing to speak to you or your daughter.  Believe him...   Trust him...

That's his way of "saying" that talking would be worse... .let him go do his thing.

Nothing will change... unless something changes.  So... to directly answer your question... .change something.

If you life seems to be a mess... pick a "part" of it... and clean it up.  Then... pick another... and another.

FF

I’ve waited for him to come back, waited for him to speak. When he spoke, I sensed the onset of mania. He was snarling and in a very mocking and sarcastic voice “thanking me” for bribing him on a retreat to open his eyes. He wants to take away the finances away from me completely. What that means is that going on forward he will be in charge of all bank accounts, bill payments and credit cards. He isn’t good at doing that. When the water bills comes a little high, which is natural in the summer time he has a meltdown. When he sees school trip he wasn’t planning for, he has a meltdown. For us, as a family, it was easier when I was doing all the budget. After all, he has already one bankruptcy under his belt. Him and finances - are a touchy subject, even groceries are, when he is in a foul mood. Just to explain he is comfortable financially. Second step is to sell his business, liquidate all assets (I’m not opposed of that). In fact, I would prefer that, for two reasons, one, it would eliminate his travelling, which will reduce dis regulation and I could parent him and the kids from one place. Second, it will free up time and once he is settled desire to come up with another plan. This time working from our hometown. (I strongly doubt he will go through with it. In fact, I think it’s his scare tactic to make everyone go jump around him, including me, his partner to try and regulate his mood, which is all over the place due to nicotine withdrawals. Third, he wants to get rid of expensive cars, kudos. I’ll be happy to put the money towards my mortgage Nostradamus if lavish cars that he leases. You see, for him, the car is the sign of his masculinity and ambition. Compare it to the penis size. The npd side of him takes pleasure in it so much so, when people have cut him off on the road, he rolls the window down and yells, if the car the other person is driving is of a lesser value “stay poor”. I am deeply embarrassed and saddened when he does that. We have come a long way from nothing. Building our family’s well being together. One step at a time, him masterminding and me keeping him on the path when he diverted. Evidently we are a good match. So when he speaks Of getting rid of his cars, I see it as a sign of self destructing.
Fourth, and this one I care about is selling the house that we have a very little mortgage on, and buying cheaper with a lot of land, so he car grow the cabbage (for about 5 minutes maybe). He doesn’t wake up before 9ish with foot massage coming from me, he has no idea how to care for the land. My dad does all the gardening and lawn mowing. In 11 years we have been in this house, he maybe did things with it 10 times when the lighting strikes. The last one and final - he decided that once he retires, he is going to stay home, because he doesn’t want to deal with stress. And I will “express” finish my education and support our family. Good idea in theory, not effective in practice. For me to finish I need at least till April to get my first degree. Masters is another 2 years and PhD is however long it takes. My unpdh is giving me till December. I can get a position right now, but with lack of experience and incomplete degree it will not help us much. As a sign of destruction he wants to sell both business, even the one that is stable and operates “from home town”, because all he wants to do is to stay home and not be stressed.
In conclusion, all this would have been fine, if it was well thought out plan, and not a BPD moment decided in 30 min walk.
Can you talk to me in terms of extinction burst, I don’t want to make matters worse for me and the kids. He wants me to be miserable, cry and beg, walk like a shadow, with my gaze lowered and defeated. Then it matches the way he feels and his mood elates a little.

[snowglobe]

There has been a "drama triangle" with you, H and the partner. This is one episode in it.

I think the larger decision is you deciding to go home ( with your kids? ) or stay and emotionally manage your H in his business.

One major fear ( and reality ) is that your family's financial well being depends on his business, and he is more stable emotionally when you stay around to provide his emotional and physical needs.

It's a tough position to be in and a tough choice to make.

From reading your story though, I think it is good for the kids to be in a relatively stable situation with your parents. It seems when they are with the two of you, they are subjected to your H's moods and drama.  I know how hard it is to be apart from your own kids. People might be tempted to judge that, but ( from my own background ) I think it is a good thing on your part to have them in a stable situation.

When I was a kid, my Dad's family would have us stay with them over summers and school breaks. During these times we were free from my BPD mother's drama. It was wonderful to be away from that. I don't think it undermined our relationship with our father. ( BPD mom's issues were the main problem in our relationship with her) but it gave us a safe space and stable adults in our lives. Dad could manage his situation without worrying about us.

The children are probably fine with their grandparents. The question for you- is what about you? It's a tough choice to make. Also, if you go home, will you be introducing your H, with his issues and drug dependence into your children's lives more than he already is? How do your parents feel about this? If the kids are staying with them do they want him around? Also- what do the kids want to do? And although they are old enough to speak for themselves, is it actually best for them? Children will be attached to a parent- even an abusive one. However your daughter may be more aware of the situation at her age.

Dear Notwendy, you really saw this one through, kids are happier and stable, thanks to my parents. Otherwise they would be two neurotic anxious kids. He really has no interest in them, until he wants them to make him feel loved

[Notwendy]

He really has no interest in them, until he wants them to make him feel loved

That is pretty much how it is with my BPD mother. She's far too impaired to be any other way. We didn't particularly get along in my teen years, but I was useful to her- I was old enough to do housework, go to the supermarket and do things for her.

I can't say that we kids didn't have some issues, but I attribute the fact that we were not as affected due to my father's family. During our time there, we got to be kids. At home, I was parentified and enlisted as an emotional caregiver to my BPD mother.

We didn't understand the whole situation well then. Of course, as kids, we wanted a mommy and a daddy, but had no real understanding that our particular mother and father had issues that made it hard for them to be that parent. I do understand it now. My father did the best he could with a tough situation. My mother was simply too impaired to do anything else.

These are tough choices. There are pros and cons to both consciously being the emotional caretaker in order to keep a stable situation for the family, and not doing it- which could lead to something different, possibly better but also would at least temporarily rock the boat. Then there is your own mental stability- it is rough on someone to be the emotional caretaker. Although you want stability for your kids, how much of this can you, or do you, want to take on for your own well being?

[formflier]

Listen... I hope I can take you back to your basic question of "how do I live my life" ( I know I'm paraphrasing).

The... read what you wrote to me.  I see lot of stuff in there about his plans and how YOU should or will or could react to his plans.

He makes plans... you react.

He changes plans... you react.

He (fill in the blank) ... .you react


Back up even further.

You make plans... you do those plans... .let him do what he does.

In all of this... .I would encourage you to leave the door open for a mutual discussion... mutual agreement.

But... .someone that says he is going to cut you off... .(and saying that works for him)... .isn't likely to come to... much less honor a "mutual agreement" anytime soon.

I wish I had other news for you... .but that's how I see it?

How do you see it?

FF

[snowglobe]

@NotWendy,
Thank you for your compassion. You have exactly described our family’s level of functioning. When we are home, kids are indirectly unlisted or coerced to partake in uBPDh emotional caretaking. If he is angry and stimming, they are being reprimanded at the slightest sign of laughter, silliness, display of joy or happiness. Times a million goes to me. Right now he is in the beginning of the tide, it’s picking up speed, he isn’t making eye contact, not speaking or acknowledging my presence or questions, he also stopped eating and drinking, he is making rapid decisions of selling the house, liquidation of assets and “getting you pests off of my back”, he is referring to me and the children.
The way I see it, is I have to take one second at a time. I’m still currently at the hotel fresh from retreat. I’m still a long way away from home, I will deal with the crisis by only way I can- ride it out.
Whatever comes- it shall be, I don’t think the universe makes any mistakes and there aren’t any coincidences. If he will go through with his threats, I will be in a tight spot financially, but I will also be home, with my children, able to see them and parent them daily, what a splendid thing. If he will leave me all together, what a relief it will be: I won’t be yelled at, berated, humiliated publicly or abused by him emotionally. My children will gain at least one solid parent. I will consult with a lawyer (when do you think it’s time to do that?) and see how to work about getting complete custody of my children. For G-d knows, he will throw all of his assets into “taking the children, taking the house, breaking me down mentally, until I see you living under the bridge” (which he routinely threatens to do in case I will lawyer up.  In case it passes by, it’s a good thing. If he leaves me and decides to come back, I will be able to place conditions of dbt threatmwnt as a part of reconciliation plan. It can’t work out negatively for me in any case. Kids are still young and impressionable, I want to avoid unnecessary trauma. For his npd will and does cloud his sound judgement. He only speaks of the children in a non-chalant way, as if he was inquiring about stranger’s friends. “How are kids, good? Good. They have issues? Let them deal with it, I’m only responsible for putting food for them on the table and providing shelter.
A wounded child in me wants to yell and scream: “get the f- out of this house, out of my life, out of the children’s lives you crazy son of a ... I no longer will tolerate this neglect, emotional and physical abuse, I will make you pay thrice for all the pain you have inflicted over the years”.
But... .I just breathe in and breathe out, focusing on one of my senses to make it through another second beside him without blowing up.
I know this is what he wants and tries to get, he wants me to punish him, to yell and loose control, he is trying to relive the trauma through me and the kids. I won’t be that person. I will deal with reality and it is, trying to avoid any judgement. It will be what it will be. I will continue living and walking my truth.
About this time into his st I would start begging and massaging his feet, I would also appear distressed, as I would genuinely be, scared, lost and confused at looming reality of him cutting gun us off financially. I will save and preserve my energy for when I will tear him apart if the time comes through legal system.

[snowglobe]

Listen... I hope I can take you back to your basic question of "how do I live my life" ( I know I'm paraphrasing).

The... read what you wrote to me.  I see lot of stuff in there about his plans and how YOU should or will or could react to his plans.

He makes plans... you react.

He changes plans... you react.

He (fill in the blank) ... .you react


Back up even further.

You make plans... you do those plans... .let him do what he does.

In all of this... .I would encourage you to leave the door open for a mutual discussion... mutual agreement.

But... .someone that says he is going to cut you off... .(and saying that works for him)... .isn't likely to come to... much less honor a "mutual agreement" anytime soon.

I wish I had other news for you... .but that's how I see it?

How do you see it?

FF

@ff his biggest and only remote control is the finances, which are largely under his control. He dispenses a monthly salary and adds bonuses as family’s needs come up. When he says “cut you off financially” it means that I won’t even be able to buy basic needs for me or the children without his approval. I get a paycheque from company for traveling with him, doing minor tasks and basically being his assistant at his back and call. If he decides to terminate it, I won’t have any source of income.
Just over a month ago he presented me with an obscenely large diamond ring to “upgrade” my previous one. To much of my joy and amusement I quickly realized that it wasn’t done to make me happy. It’s a social status thing, now, when people meet us, everyone strokes his np ego by saying, “you did well”.
He has absolutely no moral compass, sense of responsibility or object permanence. As soon as I’m out of his sight physically, it removes any sense of responsibility for the family, including his children.

[formflier]

So... you have identified a "tool" that he uses in a very dysfunctional and controlling way.

What tool is that?

How can you take that tool away from him?

or... .actually a better question.

Why is that tool effective... .what is it about the way you have chosen to live your life that "helps" that tool he has be very ... .very effective.

FF

[Notwendy]

Whatever comes- it shall be, I don’t think the universe makes any mistakes and there aren’t any coincidences. If he will go through with his threats, I will be in a tight spot financially, but I will also be home, with my children, able to see them and parent them daily, what a splendid thing. If he will leave me all together, what a relief it will be: I won’t be yelled at, berated, humiliated publicly or abused by him emotionally. My children will gain at least one solid parent. I will consult with a lawyer (when do you think it’s time to do that?) and see how to work about getting complete custody of my children. For G-d knows, he will throw all of his assets into “taking the children, taking the house, breaking me down mentally, until I see you living under the bridge” (which he routinely threatens to do in case I will lawyer up.  In case it passes by, it’s a good thing. If he leaves me and decides to come back, I will be able to place conditions of dbt threatmwnt as a part of reconciliation plan. It can’t work out negatively for me in any case.


I think you are looking at things in two ways- one- if things stay as they are- and the other, if you make a change- that change may involve a temporary increase in difficulties but there is then the possibility of something different- hopefully better.

We don't know the future. But I think we can conclude that doing the same thing is likely to bring the same results and doing something differently has the possibility of different results.

One big consideration is your and the children's safety. In a volatile and abusive situation, the time of leaving is also the time of the most danger- where the person is triggered and may be harmful.

I am not an expert in this, but I do think any move to separate from someone like your H should be done with professional advice. I think one can consult a lawyer at any time. I don't think one needs to wait until separating- it is possible to consult a lawyer for information. What are your rights? and also for safety issues- how to protect yourself, financially and physically. I would also consult a DV hotline for advice and a referral to a specialist if that is needed. Asking for advice is not the same as deciding to leave. It is just being informed on the process should you make this decision.

Growing up, life with my mother was also emotionally volatile and chaotic. I saw and heard things no child should see or hear. However, one thing that is different is that, she is a very tiny person. By my teens, I was taller and stronger than she is. I could outrun her, and she could not physically harm me. However, I was not nearly as large as a man who would have still been able to harm me physically.

[snowglobe]

Update,
As he woke up, it was evident that he entered the other end of the spectrum- catatonic state. Speaking in a very small shallow, childlike voice. Statements such as “I don’t care, I will do what you will tell me to do, you are the boss and the man of the family now, please, thank you kindly, I’m ok” is all I’ve been hearing all day. Another sign is that he stopped eating. It has happened before. He is barely drinking and hasn’t eat for over 24hrs, tomorrow it will be two days since his last meal. His destruction is now directed inwards. My mother who picked us up from the airport commented that he looks greavely mentally ill. His pupils are somewhat dilated and his has this “unseeing look”. Few times I had to lead him in the airport as if he is a silken child. When I asked him whts going to happen at home he said “I don’t know”, and I believe him. I’m hoping for a break and some clarity as we have arrived home. I asked him, “what will you say when your partner calls?” Referring to his decision of selling his share of the company. He said “write out in a piece of paper what you want me to say and I will say it”.
At some point I anticipate anger and rage slowly build up until he finds a way of releasing it. He hasn’t had a sigarette for 5 days now, for a smoker it’s probably the puck craving time. Either he is going to score the drugs and give himself a permission to relapse and start smoking, also change his attitude and disposition back to his regular macho self, go getter, we will win and prevail. Or, worse yet, he will carefully build up the tension and release it through break up attempts and him physically leaving our home, again, giving himself a permission to smoke. Finally, he might act out in a violent manner and again, release himself from obligation. In all three scenarios I will be blamed for the relapse.
I can’t help but pity his current state, he seems almost schizophrenic. When asked a simple question, it takes minutes to get a response with no acknowledgement. I’ve seen it in other patients, this catatonic state hasn’t been our reality for a few years now. I imagine this retreat with no medication for smoking session had triggered some trauma induced coping mechanisms.
I’m being gentle and very bif with him. I almost feel compelled to nurse him back to health, although I know it will reinforce the behaviour should I do it.
When my mother asked him about the experience, his reply was “Snowglobe wanted to go, it is important for her to be happy”.
I called the referral clinic for dbt that I got from the leading professor, it has a waiting list.
Meanwhile, any comments or experiences with BPD and catatonic state is much appreciated. There is also evident retardation on mental processes as we were navigating airport jungle. Usually sharp man in his prime couldn’t remember simple gate number or instruction how to get there

[Notwendy]

What is complicating this is the heavy drug use. Drug withdrawal is serious- he may need to be hospitalized.

As far as BPD goes, I have seen this sort of thing with my BPD mother. In a book- Understanding the BPD mother there are "personas" described. I would think there are similarities in men, but maybe they are expressed differently. My mother is manipulative, and so are drug addicts. Her usual way of doing this is with anger or entitlement ( witch and queen in the book) but if those don't work, or she has pushed things to far and senses I am withdrawing - she turns to "waif". Waif is the hardest for me because she can be so pitiful- she's little and now, elderly. She takes on a childlike voice and acts helpless like a child and wants to be taken care of. It's so hard now- who could say no to an elderly person acting like that but she did this when she was younger too.

If it is a manipulation, when she gets what she wants, she perks up with a smirk on her face.

However - when she is in this state, it is hard to know if she is really in distress or not and so we consider any physical issues and she goes to the doctor if there is any concern. With your H, there is the concern about the drugs. I would consider that he needs medical attention.

[snowglobe]

What is complicating this is the heavy drug use. Drug withdrawal is serious- he may need to be hospitalized.

As far as BPD goes, I have seen this sort of thing with my BPD mother. In a book- Understanding the BPD mother there are "personas" described. I would think there are similarities in men, but maybe they are expressed differently. My mother is manipulative, and so are drug addicts. Her usual way of doing this is with anger or entitlement ( witch and queen in the book) but if those don't work, or she has pushed things to far and senses I am withdrawing - she turns to "waif". Waif is the hardest for me because she can be so pitiful- she's little and now, elderly. She takes on a childlike voice and acts helpless like a child and wants to be taken care of. It's so hard now- who could say no to an elderly person acting like that but she did this when she was younger too.

If it is a manipulation, when she gets what she wants, she perks up with a smirk on her face.

However - when she is in this state, it is hard to know if she is really in distress or not and so we consider any physical issues and she goes to the doctor if there is any concern. With your H, there is the concern about the drugs. I would consider that he needs medical attention.

Sorry NotWendy,
I must have made it unclear, he is going through Nicotine withdrawal, not drugs.
Drugs are about every 3-6 months as he disregulates. They are strong central nervous system stimulants, he mixes them with alcohol. Same story goes every time. He binges on drugs, smokes and watches marathon of porn. It’s been 16 years since he was introduced to it at a party. I was able to place boundary on it for about 6 years, or so I know. He was trying to have me join him at this horrible habit/coping tool. I value my life and my children’s lives too much to take any part in it. He is a grown man twice my size, there isn’t anything I can do to stop him. So I just want him so he doesn’t overdose. Think of Lamar Odom Bunny ranch. This is my uBPDh minus the prostitutes. This is where the fear comes in; when he is in this state, it’s roughly 30 hrs of non stop porn watching and binging.

[formflier]

I would hope you could reexamine the statement that there is nothing you can do to stop him.

There are a couple levels to that statement.

ON the surface... .it's is correct, you can't "stop" someone else from doing something they are determined to do.

If you "back up" a bit and look at patterns, you will most likely see that there is a "thought process" in him that says

"I've done this before and she still (insert all the things you do for him)... .therefore it's ok.

So, a more precise statement would be I can't stop him but I can force a choice. 

I'll stop there... .  Do you see that?  Does it make sense to you?

FF

[snowglobe]

If you "back up" a bit and look at patterns, you will most likely see that there is a "thought process" in him that says

"I've done this before and she still (insert all the things you do for him)... .therefore it's ok.

So, a more precise statement would be I can't stop him but I can force a choice. 

I'll stop there... .  Do you see that?  Does it make sense to you?

FF

I’ve done this before and she is still catering to my needs, she is still here, therefore I wait for her to try and stop me from spinning out of control.
Regarding forcing a choice- he doesn’t do ultimatums. As a rule, he picks the alternative that I favour the least and stick to it. He isn’t interested in being effective, being right is the only option, which he also forces on everyone around him. Once that doesn’t work, he begins to punish anyone with an opposing views on the subject.
It’s an interesting thought, if I don’t go chasing after him, would he value these relationships enough to make the change?

[flourdust]

Second step is to sell his business, liquidate all assets (I’m not opposed of that). In fact, I would prefer that, for two reasons, one, it would eliminate his travelling, which will reduce dis regulation and I could parent him and the kids from one place.

What if you just stopped parenting him ... .no matter where he is working?

[Cat Familiar]

Flourdust brings up a good point. Up to now, you’ve allowed yourself to be powerless in this relationship because no matter how poorly he treats you, you’re there to support him, cook for him, massage him. He’s treating you like a prisoner of war in a country that doesn’t abide by the Geneva Convention and you’re allowing it.

[snowglobe]

What if you just stopped parenting him ... .no matter where he is working?

In that case, as he stated to me previously, he “has no use for me”... .he detaches and wants to break up instantly

[snowglobe]

Flourdust brings up a good point. Up to now, you’ve allowed yourself to be powerless in this relationship because no matter how poorly he treats you, you’re there to support him, cook for him, massage him. He’s treating you like a prisoner of war in a country that doesn’t abide by the Geneva Convention and you’re allowing it.

Pretty much sums up the exchange of power. In the country where he is from, that’s the way the society works. Eastern European culture is very much patriarchal and male dominated in nature. There aren’t any compromises, you can either be in, or out of the family circle.

[Notwendy]

That's also black and white thinking- you are in the family or out of it.

What happened to Lamar was tragic. Not that one can know everything about a person from TV, but having watched the show a bit it seemed he is a compassionate person and it was sad to watch him try to connect with his drug addicted father who could not return the love Lamar wanted from him. These issues can be intergenerational. One thing I do believe is that, even with all their fame and fortune, his family didn't have the power to stop him from his own addictions- I think they would have if they could. Even if someone watched him 24/7, he's a big guy and an adult- he can walk out on his own.

The emotional cost of trying to control an addict is also a consideration. Whether it is drugs, nicotine, or porn- these addictive behaviors are hard to control- and may even be impossible to control.

[snowglobe]

Everyone,
I’m having a very hard time keeping my composure and not reacting. We progressed to the next stage of “Hulk” development. From the helpless catatonic state he is a “ punisher” now. Demanding we get rid of the car lease (which I’m all in favour of, it’s unnecessary lavishly expensive), and then sell the house. He wants to “retire”, and I’m not sure what he means by that. I’m opposed of making such big decisions, as selling a house with a very tiny mortgage. Any house we buy later on, even without the mortgage will have much higher property tax, the house we currently live in is in a perfect state, renovated two years ago. I’m petrified of leaving my family in a state of turmoil with no permanent place to call our home. It doesn’t make financial sense either, yet, here we are, two years after I joined this forum, back in the same spot. He had lost 90% of our assets in a market crush over a week. It’s very unpleasant, but I’m not terribly upset over it. I didn’t have the access to it anyway, it was “his money” which he was making decisions, so he got the consequences of his own actions.
He also stopped sleeping, and isn’t allowing me either. Turning and tossing all night, also throwing his feet up in the air and then bucking so hard, that the whole bed is rocking. Please remind of of coping tools to remain calm and not react. I need to hold on to boundaries- if we sell, I’m imidiatly buying our kids a home, whatever we can afford with no mortgage. I also don’t want to loose sight in my eyes, as you remember from the last flair up

[flourdust]

In that case, as he stated to me previously, he “has no use for me”... .he detaches and wants to break up instantly

And then what?

Does he break up instantly?

Does he follow through on all his warnings and threats?

This is a common story here -- pwBPD threats used to control their partners out of fear. Their actions become your responsibility.

Your husband doesn't want to break up with you -- or he may feel that he wants that when dysregulated but doesn't have the executive control to follow through. What he wants is to make you do things that make him feel better. As long as you keep jumping at his threats, he's getting what he wants, and your toxic dynamic can't improve.

What do you think about ... .not jumping to save him or obey him when he makes a threat? Just see what he does instead.

[formflier]

Let him not sleep.

You go/do whatever is needed to sleep.

Let him process his feelings about your need for rest.  Wouldn't it be best to stop talking about selling businesses, property taxes and other details.

Those things will be what they are.  Right now you need space to sleep so YOU can make better decisions.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband regularly threatened me that he would take all our money and just disappear one day. He used that to try and control me. It's much easier to verbalize threats than to follow through with all those things he's threatening to do.

flourdust and formflier have given good advice about how he uses these threats to make you respond to him.

[formflier]

threats to make you respond to him.

Cat Familiar,

How many times did he actually take all the money and disappear forever?

FF