Here we go again… What to do?

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi all… I’m back again… What a surprise.

I got roughly 6 weeks of reconciliation with my girlfriend, and the split has happened all over again. Just like last time, I am left wondering… When or should I reach out to this girl?

Some of you may remember me from about a month and a half ago when I was in almost the exact same predicament. Here’s my long winded recount of what’s been going on this time around.

Nutshell background:  we’ve dated for two years, the usual patterns of push pull… she has broken up with me about 10 times, usually at about the 6 to 8 week mark.  Usually it’s the result of stuff she has concocted in her head that defies reality.

I should preface this venting by conveying that my partner started a new job about a month ago, and is literally working double the amount of time, with her old job and her new job in tandem, and has been stressed out to the max. I suspect that this in no small part is related to her split, so that is important to know.

Last time I was on here, we had been broken up for a month, which was the longest so far. When we reconciled, we talked for hours about what had happened to create the break up, and her the main reason was that she felt I was not including her in my family decisions as if I was going to be there for her future. 

I did what I could to validate her concerns, and made a pact with her to try to be much better at making her feel like she was part of my future and family. I really don’t think I did that badly prior to her breaking up, but there would be no telling her that. She believes what she believes and she thinks what she thinks.

So, the first bunch of weeks of reconciliation were great. We connected well and we did well. I felt very positive.

Almost according to script, things started to go downhill after about a month. It started with a late night talk after we had been intimate, and I felt I needed to try to go back and unravel some of the hurt that I had felt from her previous break ups, so I tried to tell her that I was very hurt by many of the things that she had said previously when she broke up with me, and hoped that she could understand how I would still be harboring some insecurity regarding those break ups.  I wasn’t accusatory at all, I was just encouraging her to understand that I had to process some of those things and try to let them go in order to feel completely secure in our relationship, and perhaps she could help by understanding my pain regarding those break ups. I thought I was fairly gentle and encouraging with the conversation.

No surprise… She was not able to relate to what I was saying, and still validated the terrible things that she said upon break up, most of which were mean and nasty and had little basis of reality, but were valid to her.

She immediately went on the defensive and started to say that I was invalidating everything that she had said during that reconciliation conversation that she was concerned about.  I’m not really sure how she drew that connection, but I reassured her that I was not trying to do that, but I am not convinced I was getting through.

She concluded the conversation that night by saying, “I decided to give this another chance because I love you, and because we agreed we were going to put the past behind us, and just take one step forward at a time“.

I thought that was a reasonable strategy, and I let it go. However, I couldn’t help but wonder if that conversation was going to leave seeds in her head that would lead to another round of self destruct.  I think I may have been right.

Over the next few weeks, I noticed things starting to go downhill.  We sat at a dinner table with friends and she started to bring up politics and pandemic, both of which have been problematic conversations with us in the past, and I tried very hard to steer clear of anything that would be very divisive, but I also attempted to be who I am, and gently conveyed my opinion in subtle ways on the topics. Even so, I think I rubbed her the wrong way, just by means of me presenting discussion, if even subtly, that may have seemed contradictory to what she was saying. However, that night ended on a relatively positive note.

Over the next 10 days, things were often sticky. I had one situation where a family friend who has a daughter older than me texted me out of the blue, after not seeing her for 40 years, and asked me if she could travel to my city to see a concert and whether I would like to go. My girlfriend and I discuss that at length, and I told her that I was never interested in this girl and never would be, plus the girl dates other girls… And even my mother said to my girlfriend that this family friend was a class act and would in no way be a threat. So my girlfriend and I talked about that at length, and she encouraged me to do whatever I felt I wanted to do to be friendly and a good person.  That seemed to be the end of that situation. It never came up again.

So, I started to notice my girlfriend being inconsistent over the next 10 days. There was a couple of times that she called me, but then was interrupted, and said she would call me back a little bit later, and then never did. That was starting to get hurtful. It happened more than once.

The biggest problem happened last weekend, when she had made plans to come over late after work one night, but then change that plan at relatively last minute and decided she could come over the next night instead, When she got out of work earlier. That seemed to make sense, even though she had come over at that time a few weeks earlier and it was just fine.  I told her it would be fine for me, and I would enjoy having her over, if even for a short time, since she had to work relatively early in the morning.  But then That call was interrupted, as well, and she said she would call me back later and then she didn’t, which was upsetting.  She has not known to ever do that.

So, the next day she was supposed to come over after work, She didn’t call me on her way to work as she had been doing for the three weeks prior, I didn’t text her during the day to confirm. I figured that it was her that didn’t get back to me the night before when she said she would, so I would wait to hear from her. I also didn’t wanna make her feel pressure to come over, because her work has been deadly, and she has been saying over and over that she’s really stretched out and unhappy with what’s happening at work, so I figured if she didn’t call me back the night before, and she didn’t call me on the way to work like she always does, then she is likely stressed out and doesn’t wanna talk, so I didn’t reach out to her to ask her her plan for that night.

So the time came and went that she was expecting to come over to the house and I didn’t hear from her, nor did I reach out to her.  I was kind of hurt.   So, I called her at 10 PM that night and ask how she is doing, and it turns out that she is pissed, and says that she didn’t come over because I didn’t reach out to her to confirm. When I explain to her why I did not do that, and also point out that she also completely did not reach out to me to confirm and that it was a 50-50 communication debacle, she wanted no part of that admission. It was all my fault.

Thankfully, I was able to redirect the conversation later and asked her to just move on from that, and we had a nice conversation after that. So all seemed to end well.

The final time I saw her, the next day, I got together with her and my daughter to go to lunch, and it seemed to go OK.  Her and I went out for a solo walk afterward, and it seemed OK. She had that day off and the next day off, so we made a plan to check in later to see if maybe she would come down that night. She ended up texting me later that her best friend, who had just lost her husband a month ago, invited her out for wine, and she told me she would text me or call me later on to see if we were still around, but not to wait for her if we wanted to do something else. She never got back to me that night, which was again hurtful.

The next day, this past Tuesday, she called me in the morning, which was nice, and we had a nice talk… And we started to make plans for her to come over that night. I can’t figure out for the life of me what happened after that… Later that afternoon, she texted me that she was going to go out for a wine with her hairdresser who invited her out, and she would call me later and make a plan. She never did. That’s the last time I heard from her.  It’s completely mind-boggling. She’s gone completely silent.

I tried to call her twice after that, once that night, and once the next morning, and no response, or no text to even indicate that she call me later like she normally would. It’s very unlike her.  Well, maybe it’s not. But, she’s never ghosted quite like this since I’ve known her.

The only specific thing that I think could have gotten under her skin is that she was complaining about her work in the last minutes of our last call together. I was trying to support her, and encourage her to consider options, but there may have been one thing that could have pissed her off. One of the last things I said to her was that if she talks to her supervisor at work, to try to remain really positive in the conversation and not sound angry or hostile, because it may not end up proactively.  I even prefaced saying that by telling her that I didn’t want her to think that I was preaching to her, or condescending to her, but if it were me, this is what I would say to my boss… Well, she didn’t seem too eager to engage in that conversation and just responded by saying, in a fairly curt way, “Well, I’m always very professional in those kinds of scenarios…”. She sounded a little annoyed by my line of suggestion.

That was the last I heard from her.  Now, there is no way in the world I can tell if any one or maybe all of those situations led her to crash.

Once again, I’m just left wondering… Do I reach out to her again? It’s been three days, and she knows I tried to contact her twice. I even wonder why I would want to reach out to her after this kind of thing.

In many ways, the last six weeks have probably shown the most stability in different areas. Why the crash now, it’s hard to say.  I just don’t think she feels she has the energy to deal with the emotion that she’s feeling with me, and that was definitely evident when I spoke with her after we didn’t connect about her coming over that night. She sounded more pissed than anything. But maybe she felt like I was abandoning her? Who knows.

So what’s the point of this long winded ramble? I just don’t know what to do about all of this. I don’t know what I did, or what she’s upset about. I know nothing.

What would you do under such circumstances?  At least from my perspective, things have gone fairly well for the first month of this incarnation.

What the heck should I do?

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[tvda]

I'm going to be blunt... I think you've been moving the goalposts and your boundaries along quite a bit...

You seem to be convincing yourself that things are become more and more stable... But I'm sorry to say that I feel you are deluding yourself... The 'temporary calm' may have seemed stable. But the pushing away feels equally intense from what I read. And most of all: the whole push-pull cycle you describe is totally unstable.

Are you living according to your own boundaries? For the past months or years? It sounds like you are not, far from it. You are adapting to her dysfunctional way of dealing with things. Probably in an attempt to save the relationship or keep it going... Is that really what you want? A relationship where you constantly walk on eggshells and your needs are not met?

I know where you're coming from and understand it so well... I just didn't want to lose her. So I placated her and let go of all healthy boundaries. It was either that or losing her. In my case, it was abuse, highly manipulative and a game you can only lose... Sorry for the tough love...

[Mr. Kelly]

I'm going to be blunt... I think you've been moving the goalposts and your boundaries along quite a bit...

You seem to be convincing yourself that things are become more and more stable... But I'm sorry to say that I feel you are deluding yourself... The 'temporary calm' may have seemed stable. But the pushing away feels equally intense from what I read. And most of all: the whole push-pull cycle you describe is totally unstable.

Are you living according to your own boundaries? For the past months or years? It sounds like you are not, far from it. You are adapting to her dysfunctional way of dealing with things. Probably in an attempt to save the relationship or keep it going... Is that really what you want? A relationship where you constantly walk on eggshells and your needs are not met?

I know where you're coming from and understand it so well... I just didn't want to lose her. So I placated her and let go of all healthy boundaries. It was either that or losing her. In my case, it was abuse, highly manipulative and a game you can only lose... Sorry for the tough love...

I completely hear where you are coming from… And I constantly wonder if the battle I am fighting will ever end with a war that has a victorious outcome.

Like most of us, I guess, this girl can be awesome when she is stable. But her emotional dysregulation is triggered so quickly and seemingly randomly that I can’t make heads or tails of it.

Maybe I am just an illusion to her, and when it has been proven time and time again that I’m just a regular human being that is likely going to let her down, she crashes and discards me. Then, when she notices my lack of presence, and how hurt she feels after I am gone, she then has to pick up the pieces again. When does it end? Ever?

I guess I am just thinking… “What if…“

When her and I do well, it’s great. Then she just implodes, so it seems. In her brain, she will likely have all these reasons that I have let her down, and that it is her that has been doing all the work to keep us going. It’s complete rubbish. But that’s her reality, and when she gets down on herself like this, the only thing I think she thinks she can do is bail out.  Maybe that’s all she can do.

I am not at all young. Neither is she. We both constantly comment how we don’t have time to waste, and how we don’t want to sweat the little stuff. I’m running out of time to start over, and I don’t attract partners easily. I’m not saying that I am settling for her, but in some ways that is true. I absolutely love her, when she’s stable. My therapist says I have to be able to be OK with all of her, and I have even told her recently that I am perfectly OK if she is not here, it’s my fear that when she is not here, like now, that there is some reason she’s not telling me about that is preventing her from being present. I had that conversation with her two days before she disappeared.  I wonder if I was penetrating that shield of inner secrecy a little too much with those conversations.

I suspect she is just feeling way too much pressure, between her jobs which are stressful and traumatic, and me, who she feels pressure from, even if inadvertently… I think she has just imploded. But I have no real way to know, and that’s part of the tough situation I feel I’m in.

If all goes according to history, I will get a really nasty break up letter within the next bunch of days, telling me how she has been thinking about this for a long time, and that because of all the things I have done to her, that she’s just not interested anymore, and it’s final this time. I’ve read that over and over. I’ve been called a narcissist repeatedly… A liar… Someone who is all talk but no action… And that she’s just a tool that I use to fill the void in my pathetic empty life.

The conversation I had with her in the wee hours a few weeks ago I was trying to get her to understand how damaging and hurtful those words could be, and that I was trying hard to get past those words, but it might take some time and some understanding from her to help me do that. I don’t think she wanted any part of that conversation. I thought we were in a stable enough place, and we seemed to be in a great spot, so I hoped that she would not be vulnerable enough to hear those words as being anything other than honest and cathartic, And a way to move forward beyond them. I’m not sure that was even nearly the case, though.

So, I get what you are saying. Is this all worth it? That’s a very loaded question, and one with multiple answers, depending on where in the cycle we are in.

And so it goes… My head keeps swinging back-and-forth, almost borderline onto itself.

So, hypothetically, if I wanted to try to reestablish contact, for whatever masochistic reasons, what would be your suggestion? Go no contact, like I’ve done each and every time before, and let her come back to me in anger, like she’s done every time before, or reach out myself this time around and ask her how she is doing? I can’t wrap my head around either one of those choices.

Then there is the third choice… Let it go, once and for all.

[Mr. Kelly]

You seem to be convincing yourself that things are become more and more stable... But I'm sorry to say that I feel you are deluding yourself... The 'temporary calm' may have seemed stable. But the pushing away feels equally intense from what I read.

I thought a bit about what you wrote.

Well, the push pull is not all that we are.  We have some really important things in common, and that’s why partners try to work hard to understand what happens to borderlines in such circumstances, and how to get better at not contributing to it.

I think I was probably better at not feeding into her borderline characteristics this time around than I ever was. I think I displayed an independence and strength of character that is may be a little intimidating for her. I think she may interpret it the wrong way.

I don’t think I really did anything “wrong“ this time around, even though I think she is disengaged because she is disappointed with something I said or did.  What that is, I could only speculate.

Tomorrow will be day four after she broke a date and hasn’t responded to calls from that night and the next morning.  I may send her a text tomorrow that says something like this… “Hope you are doing OK. Not exactly sure what may have happened that has brought you to feel that you’ve needed to disconnect. If you want to talk, I am available.“.

My good friend thinks that reaching out to her will enable her continued bad behavior. Online resources seem to indicate that borderlines can’t help when they split like this, and it may be important to reach out and let her know that I am still here and I’m not completely gone.

Thoughts?

[formflier]

So...it's good to keep an eye on her emotional state and how that affects your relationship.

It's even better to keep an eye on your own emotional state an how that contributes to the relationship.

What is different about YOU during this breakup?

My good friend thinks that reaching out to her will enable her continued bad behavior. Online resources seem to indicate that borderlines can’t help when they split like this, and it may be important to reach out and let her know that I am still here and I’m not completely gone.

What if you allowed her to be an adult?  If she wants to know what's going on with you..she can reach out.

Look at it another way.

Perhaps she realizes she can't communicate in a healthy way right now.  In an odd way, not communicating in that situation is a good choice for her.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

It's even better to keep an eye on your own emotional state an how that contributes to the relationship.

What is different about YOU during this breakup?

What if you allowed her to be an adult?  If she wants to know what's going on with you..she can reach out.

Look at it another way.

Perhaps she realizes she can't communicate in a healthy way right now.  In an odd way, not communicating in that situation is a good choice for her.

Best,

FF

Hi formflyer… Thanks for your input, as usual.

In many ways, maybe I was too thoughtful over the last couple of weeks. I tried very hard to do exactly what she had said at our last reconciliation… Which was to make her feel like a greater part of the decision making process in my house and family.

I have been including her in the decisions of household purchases, brought her to a family event that celebrated my daughter, and things seem to be going fairly well. Maybe too well.

It’s possible she thought I was not being genuine when I was doing a lot of that stuff… Then, when we mixed up our communication, and neither of us texted each other, and she went home from work rather than to my house because of it, she was nasty, and blamed it 100% on me.

I tried to be very casual about it, and I told her that I knew she was very stressed out at work and I told her that I didn’t want her to feel pressure coming over, so I was waiting to hear from her, and then I never did hear from her. She went straight home.

I don’t know if these things seemed suspicious to her… More than once we talked about her not coming over that night. More than once I told her I was just trying to give her space in case she needed it because of her new job. She seemed rather perturbed that I would think that she needed space, even though she had rearranged plans from the night before, because she was expecting to be too tired and stressed out to come over at 11 PM, after work, even though she had done in a couple of weeks earlier not too long after we reconciled.

So, I was sensing that she was starting to go a bit downhill… And I just thought I would chill and be easy, and often silly. It seem to be going OK. Until it wasn’t.

It really went downhill fast, and within the last couple of days. Two nights in a row she found something else to do rather than coming over, as she had already planned that she would… And two days in a row I was texting her less during the day, because I was feeling something was changing, and I wanted to give her space to contact me when she was ready. Well, within a couple days she wasn’t contacting me at all. I have no idea why.

So, I don’t know what I have done differently this time around during the break up… It’s been pretty much the same as the other times, except this time there was no formal break up. She’s just ghosted for the last five days. I called her twice, the last night I spoke to her on the phone, and then the next morning, and she never returned my calls. She’s never ever done that before.

Well, I don’t know what more to say. It’s really a matter of choosing between reaching out and offering her a lifeline, with a gentle “I’m thinking about you and I hope you’re doing OK. Call me if and when you’re ready“, or just allowing her the space to reach out to me when she’s ready.

My hesitation in not reaching out to her is that when she eventually reached out to me during previous break ups, she was often pissed, and conveyed that she couldn’t understand why I hadn’t reached out to her… To which I replied… “If you break up with me or don’t respond, I’m not going to chase you.”  In a typical borderline way, she said something like… “Well, how come it is me that always hast to do the work to get us back together?”

I almost wonder if these break ups are deliberately passive aggressive… Or whether they are subconscious ways for her to steal mental space so she can figure things out. Why it turned out nasty each and every time before, with terrible break up letters, I will never know.

So, I almost feel that if I reach out to her that I am conceding power to her… Which I personally won’t allow for myself, but she may feel she can try to take it, which may make matters worse.

But if I try to wait for her to reach out to me, it may be the straw that breaks the camels back for her, and she may flip out for good, who knows.

What’s different this time around is that there wasn’t really an incident that caused all of this to happen when it did. She didn’t indicate she was angry with me, or that I had said something that upset her… There was really no singular event… Truthfully, I think she’s just going through a mental health crisis, and maybe she doesn’t want me to be part of it.  that’s really the best I can think of it.

[Mr. Kelly]

Wow...

Unfriended on Facebook... out of the blue... after letting her be for a week... no word as to why, what I did... why she was upset.  Just ghosted and now unfriended.

What the heck should I do?  Continued no contact?

[once removed]

I got roughly 6 weeks of reconciliation with my girlfriend, and the split has happened all over again. Just like last time, I am left wondering… When or should I reach out to this girl?

why disappear in a time when you likely need it the most?

is getting her back the objective, or is it to build the strongest foundation possible?

the relationship may be salvageable, it may not. but these are challenging relationships, the likes of which youve got to always be sharpening your skills.

furthermore, with every breakup/makeup cycle, the fabric of the relationship deteriorates. that it will be tested, that old patterns/habits will be repeated, is a given. the question is whether you have a new, and very different strategy when and if they do. and make no mistake, that a new strategy will be a test in and of itself.

I really don’t think I did that badly prior to her breaking up, but there would be no telling her that. She believes what she believes and she thinks what she thinks.

maybe you did, and maybe you didnt. i dont think that an attitude of paying her concerns lip service while not taking them especially seriously is a sound strategy.

she believes what she believes and she thinks what she thinks, for sure. and that may mean irreconcilable differences between the two of you, or it may mean meeting in the middle.

Almost according to script, things started to go downhill after about a month. It started with a late night talk after we had been intimate, and I felt I needed to try to go back and unravel some of the hurt that I had felt from her previous break ups, so I tried to tell her that I was very hurt by many of the things that she had said previously when she broke up with me, and hoped that she could understand how I would still be harboring some insecurity regarding those break ups.  I wasn’t accusatory at all, I was just encouraging her to understand that I had to process some of those things and try to let them go in order to feel completely secure in our relationship, and perhaps she could help by understanding my pain regarding those break ups. I thought I was fairly gentle and encouraging with the conversation.

No surprise… She was not able to relate to what I was saying, and still validated the terrible things that she said upon break up, most of which were mean and nasty and had little basis of reality, but were valid to her.

She immediately went on the defensive and started to say that I was invalidating everything that she had said during that reconciliation conversation that she was concerned about.  I’m not really sure how she drew that connection, but I reassured her that I was not trying to do that, but I am not convinced I was getting through.

its because you are largely talking at each other, where there is no foundation of trust.

when you reconcile a relationship, its best to consider the old relationship to be dead, and grieve it as if it were, and have a very different strategy for any new iteration of the relationship.

mind you, im encouraging balance here; you dont easily forget your hurts, and im not telling you to go into things without any acknowledgment of that.

but rest assured, she has those hurts, and that baggage too, and raising yours in that sort of setting, or vice versa, is likely to bump up against that. thats why she responded in kind. the two of you are clashing on old, unresolved conflict and hurt. its "you hurt me", "oh yeah? well you hurt me too!".

it might be simpler to speak in terms of positive reinforcement. to, for example, accentuate the strengths of your relationship, and how multiple breakups have hurt it, share that you think your relationship is above that, and what your vision going forward would be.

Over the next few weeks, I noticed things starting to go downhill.  We sat at a dinner table with friends and she started to bring up politics and pandemic, both of which have been problematic conversations with us in the past, and I tried very hard to steer clear of anything that would be very divisive, but I also attempted to be who I am, and gently conveyed my opinion in subtle ways on the topics. Even so, I think I rubbed her the wrong way, just by means of me presenting discussion, if even subtly, that may have seemed contradictory to what she was saying.

big political gaps are a legitimate difference between two people. its not always the political differences (james carville and mary matalin, two famous political strategists on opposite spectrums are famously married for decades), but how two people deal with them can be a large part of the differences between two people.

she was complaining about her work in the last minutes of our last call together. I was trying to support her, and encourage her to consider options, but there may have been one thing that could have pissed her off. One of the last things I said to her was that if she talks to her supervisor at work, to try to remain really positive in the conversation and not sound angry or hostile, because it may not end up proactively.  I even prefaced saying that by telling her that I didn’t want her to think that I was preaching to her, or condescending to her, but if it were me, this is what I would say to my boss…

unsolicited advice, my friend. it may help to just listen, let her complain, or to straight up ask how you can best support her.

in reading the rest of your post, it sounds, again, like the old hurts, the old distrust, the old conflicts, have resurfaced.

they caused her to distance. a lot of women will tend to do this. generally speaking, men will either chase or be oblivious.

its hard to say how to respond to that. im inclined to say that you should, but probably the most important thing is that you not overreact. its a showy, dramatic move on her part (shes made similar moves before). ignoring it serves neither of you. but show strength and confidence. dont make it a big deal. be prepared for no response. we can help you through it.

[tvda]

As usual I am the blunt voice on this board... I know this is the "bettering" board so I'm trying not to be too negative - with some effort - but... OP, don't you feel like she is treating you really poorly, while you are trying to salvage things, take a positive approach, trying to find the right way to approach and address her... while she is doing of the sort. To put it in other words... do you think a relationship can be saved when one partner tries really hard to save it, and the other partner neglects and damages it?

I really understand where you are coming from. You want to fix things, so salvage things, to get her back. I've been there. Probably still am there in some ways. But she is doing the opposite. And you cannot build or save a relationship by yourself. By definition, both partners need to make this effort for this to work. And even then there is no guarantee. But she is not even doing "the work". Quite the opposite.

You ask what to do and how to deal with this... My two cents worth: she's leaving you no option. She has to do her part. If not, you need to let go...

[Mr. Kelly]

All good replies. Thank you.

Well… Each and every time we have broken up, I have done tons of research to understand BPD and how to validate her concerns, not trigger more episodes, and be there to support her.  I thought I had been doing those things fairly well, although perhaps a little wobbly.  There is only so much negativity and anger I can tolerate before I start to bend a little bit.

I just don’t think she is currently capable, or maybe ever will be capable, of understanding her own needs and being able to be proactive, reflective and successful in this kind of interaction.

She tries really hard. She does. She tries to be good to me in so many decent and loving ways. But when it comes down to it, I think she is incapable of that kind of self reflection… She naturally interprets things in the worst possible way, which is understandable with this kind of condition, and there is almost zero I can do to offset it.  It almost seems the more I try to validate her concerns, maybe the more suspicious she gets?

 I think she feels I criticized her, which wasn’t my intent at all. I would have never known that a simple encouragement regarding her work pursuits would have been interpreted in such a way to completely disconnect. I did try to reach out to her twice after that, but no response. Don’t know how much more I can do other than beg, which I don’t think is useful.

Yes, I think I did put her up against her own trust with my late night gentle conversation about my own issues of trust. I thought we were in a place where she may be able to empathize with what I was feeling, and I thought maybe it would be helpful to open up that a little bit to try to gain a better perspective on how to move forward. It seriously backfired. At least that’s what it seems.

I think the mistake I made was gently trying to encourage her to understand that her break ups and language of hate that she uses during her splits is hurtful to me.  Even when it seemed like she was in the most stable of places, that was a big mistake. I think that was probably the turnaround

I guess I don’t really know if I should move forward. I just don’t think she is capable of being trusting enough to allow herself to be in this kind of relationship without hurting herself continuously. And that hurts me. 

And no, she is not doing any of the internal work. Each and every time, upon reconciliation, she seems to think she can go back to being the exact same way she has always been, and it’s me that has to do the changing. That is almost unchanged and unresolvable. Don’t know what to do with that.

What more can I possibly do that I haven’t already done to invoke change? Each and every time I have gotten better at letting things go, been better prepared to meet in the middle, validated her needs and concerns in a stronger way… But if she isn’t able to internalize these efforts, at least at this point, is there really any hope? This time is roughly 12 times in almost 2 years that she has split, blocked me on social media, but this is the first time she hasn’t actually sent me a nasty note telling me why she’s breaking up. This seems different.  Maybe this is the dreaded final discard?

 

[tvda]

It does seem different, and might be the final discard... I am in exactly the same situation at the exact same time it seems...

It's different because before her breakups would be chaotic, intense and emotionally charged... This time: cold, emotionless and detached. All things point to her having moved on to another guy, in not even a day after professing her love for me.

What more can you do, you ask... What more would you have wanted to do? Reading your last post, it feels like all your work, solutions and approaches have one thing in common: erasing yourself a bit more each time, neglecting your own needs a bit more each time... Where do you think this would have ended?

[formflier]

What more can I possibly do that I haven’t already done to invoke change? 

Hey...not passing judgment on your prior work to change the r/s.  Trying to raise a possibility for you to consider.

As I read your posts I see lots of effort to support her...to communicate with her...to encourage her...it's about her her her her her.  If I only X..then she would Y.

What if you stopped taking ownership of her dysfunction?  There is a thought that BPDs are fearful of being alone..that they actually "want" or "need" you in their life.

So..what if...what if... you made it clear what your standards were for a relationship and then let her do the work (or let her decide not to) to stay with you, instead of you doing all this work to convince her to stay.

Said another way...try to live a healthy life and leave the door open for her, should she choose to walk through that door.

Something to consider, especially if you are feeling like you have "tried everything" and are disappointed in the results.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Tvda,

So, we are almost in the exact same position… Where have you guys left things, at this point? How long has it been since you haven’t communicated, and how long has it been since you were together?

It’s hard to say how much I give up of myself each and every time I give in to one of her rants or raves. I think I can get better at depersonalizing her perspective on things, and using empathy rather than judgment when I don’t necessarily agree with something she says. I have gotten so much better at doing that. The things that are great between her and I far outweigh those differences, I think. I think she has a much harder time coming to the middle than I do, and I think that’s where the problems arise.  

I think that when I make the mistakes of expressing my opinion on sensitive matters, even if I do it in the most validating and gentle ways, I think she just feels that I am too different than she is, and I think it closes doors for her.

I am ultra sensitive, but she is off the charts. I do walk on eggshells because I can never tell if even the slightest thing that I say that may differ from her perspective on something may rub her the wrong way.  Most of the time, especially in the last six weeks, it didn’t seem to bother her if I had a different opinion than she did on something… But I can never tell, because sometimes those differences come out in her splits, and she starts going back and picking at all the things that I may have said that opposed her perspectives, often saying, “you never listen to what I say, and you always disagree with everything like you know everything and I know nothing.“. Those are distorted perspectives, but I fear the wrath coming out in dark times, so I do walk on eggshells.

So, what are you going to do moving forward in your situation?

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey...not passing judgment on your prior work to change the r/s.  Trying to raise a possibility for you to consider.

As I read your posts I see lots of effort to support her...to communicate with her...to encourage her...it's about her her her her her.  If I only X..then she would Y.

What if you stopped taking ownership of her dysfunction?  There is a thought that BPDs are fearful of being alone..that they actually "want" or "need" you in their life.

So..what if...what if... you made it clear what your standards were for a relationship and then let her do the work (or let her decide not to) to stay with you, instead of you doing all this work to convince her to stay.

Said another way...try to live a healthy life and leave the door open for her, should she choose to walk through that door.

Something to consider, especially if you are feeling like you have "tried everything" and are disappointed in the results.

Best,

FF

Excellent thoughts… I really appreciate them…

How would I go about doing that? Is this a form of setting boundaries?

I think she would need to get into therapy to try to understand things, but I don’t think she is anywhere near that. She has often said derogatory things about therapists, and how they are all dysfunctional and only tell you what you want to hear… That kind of thing.

I have never ever suggested that maybe she has taken things that I have said out of context, or has been interpreting things differently… That seems like it’s a form of invalidation, of sorts.

Your suggestion is excellent, but I don’t really know what I would do to enact that.  Thoughts?

[Mr. Kelly]

The more I think about it, the more I think I may have done something just like that about three weeks ago in our late night conversation. I told her that the one thing that I needed from her, that was really important to me, was for her to trust me. I needed to know that she would trust if I told her that I loved her, or that I felt a certain way, or why something has happened.

In some ways, I think I was trying to tell her what I needed from her… Trust. I know that’s a tall issue with a likely BPD, but I was hoping that might open some doors I thought might be helpful moving forward.

I think it may have done the exact opposite.  I think it may have subconsciously made her think I was trying to play her and manipulate her.

[formflier]

Hey...I'm reluctant to provide details at the moment.  There is a "big picture" thing you need to understand and take to heart.

Whatever "strategy" you undertake to deal with a pwBPD is going to take a lot of consistent effort over a long period of time.

I'm not aware of any strategy where you try it once and get the result and you declare it valid for your r/s or not.

So...evaluate the r/s and what has worked/not worked so far.

Make a deliberate choice about the strategy you think is best going forward and then do that for weeks and months (ignoring for the most part the drama of the pwBPD trying to get the "old you" back).  Then check results..make a deliberate adjustment and do that for a few months (wash rinse repeat).

Last:  Any strategy that depends on them (such as if she would only trust me)...is unlikely to succeed.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thanks, FF. I really appreciate the thoughts.

I just don’t know how to implement such changes…

Thus far, most of the changes I have implemented have been to try to not personalize some of our differences, and I’ve gotten significantly better at doing that… I have also gotten much better at not bringing up topics that are controversial, not trying to validate my own perspective, and trying to really support her significantly without judgment in her times of need.  I think I have done those to the best of my ability, and for the most part, have done them really well. I don’t really know what more I can do.

During her splits, she pretty consistently says that she doesn’t know if she can get back to the trust that she once hadn’t before I broke that trust with several “mis deeds“, which she says she may not be able to get beyond, which were really interactions that were taken way out of context.

So… How to get where I think we may need to go may be almost more up to her than me.

I wish I knew, FF, I wish I knew.

[once removed]

It almost seems the more I try to validate her concerns, maybe the more suspicious she gets?

because this is not necessarily what it means to be validating, and validating is not a catch all for improving a relationship with someone with bpd.

probably the most common (and understandable) mistake i see on this board is that we get it in our heads that we can use magic words to soothe our partners. that is not what is meant by validation, and most of us wouldnt find it very validating to be on the receiving end of.

it is far easier, in my mind, to think in terms of "dont be invalidating". if you are doing that, you are most likely doing the other, naturally.

thats not to tell you to walk on eggshells. our loved ones are highly sensitive, and highly sensitive to perceived slights and criticism. you seem to recognize that its going to happen.

I think the mistake I made was gently trying to encourage her to understand that her break ups and language of hate that she uses during her splits is hurtful to me.  Even when it seemed like she was in the most stable of places, that was a big mistake. I think that was probably the turnaround

there is, more than likely, a way to do this that your loved one would be receptive to. putting it in the context of past breakups, and in the context of how you are harboring insecurity, probably feels to her like its putting her on the defensive. remember, this is in the same context that you are asking her to trust you.

[formflier]

So… How to get where I think we may need to go may be almost more up to her than me.

 

Well..if you leave her "in charge" of the relationship...then this is true.

If you decide to be the leader in the relationship and "lead by example" with healthy behavior...then this will be much less true, although each of you always has a "vote" in the relationship.

Said another way...it appears to me that you have handed your vote to her and are making the r/s dependent on her.

Best,

FF

[tvda]

During her splits, she pretty consistently says that she doesn’t know if she can get back to the trust that she once hadn’t before I broke that trust with several “mis deeds“, which she says she may not be able to get beyond, which were really interactions that were taken way out of context.

Sounds like the classic narcissist trick of reversing the "perpetrator/victim" roles...

[Mr. Kelly]

because this is not necessarily what it means to be validating, and validating is not a catch all for improving a relationship with someone with bpd.

probably the most common (and understandable) mistake i see on this board is that we get it in our heads that we can use magic words to soothe our partners. that is not what is meant by validation, and most of us wouldnt find it very validating to be on the receiving end of.

it is far easier, in my mind, to think in terms of "dont be invalidating". if you are doing that, you are most likely doing the other, naturally.

thats not to tell you to walk on eggshells. our loved ones are highly sensitive, and highly sensitive to perceived slights and criticism. you seem to recognize that its going to happen.

there is, more than likely, a way to do this that your loved one would be receptive to. putting it in the context of past breakups, and in the context of how you are harboring insecurity, probably feels to her like its putting her on the defensive. remember, this is in the same context that you are asking her to trust you.

Good points… What would examples of validating and invalidating look like, if say, we are having a general conversation, and I don’t necessarily agree with what she is saying…

In the last bunch of months, I’ve been trying to stay away from those kinds of topics, but when she brings them up, and she starts to spew stuff… I will often say things like “well, I hear you about that political issue, and what you say may be true, but here’s my perspective on it…“

Or, in the example of the late night conversation, I try to use really gentle language, and suggest that I was only bringing these things up so I could let go of some of that pain and try to move us closer together. I guess maybe I shouldn’t have even brought that topic up? Some have been saying that it makes no sense to try to rehash the past with borderlines.

Or the example of when I was trying to say some positive advice regarding how to handle her boss… My therapist just said that it sounds preachy and might make her feel like she doesn’t know what she’s doing, which is almost what she implied with her follow up statement, “well, I’m always really professional in those situations, just so that you know“, which she said in a snarky way.  I guess I have to just stay out of those conversations, and let her spew it out? This makes me feel like I’m engaged in a one-sided conversation, which seems to happen very frequently when she’s not in a good space, like now..

What other strategies are there?

[Mr. Kelly]

Sounds like the classic narcissist trick of reversing the "perpetrator/victim" roles...

There is no question that she has elements of narcissism blended in there… But mostly when she is splitting like this. I do think that she plays the victim role, and she gets very very hostile and defensive and says “don’t be turning this around on me like you always do”.

That’s not at all what’s happening.

[once removed]

Some have been saying that it makes no sense to try to rehash the past with borderlines.

theres little sense in trying to rehash the past with anyone you are trying to build a new and improved relationship with. its the source of conflict, and the tension you broke up over.

like FF was saying, think big picture. im not telling you to forget about those things or go into this blindly, far from it, but have a vision of the new direction you want to lead the relationship in, and build the environment to do so.

My therapist just said that it sounds preachy and might make her feel like she doesn’t know what she’s doing, which is almost what she implied with her follow up statement, “well, I’m always really professional in those situations, just so that you know“, which she said in a snarky way.  I guess I have to just stay out of those conversations, and let her spew it out?

i am not BPD, and i cant stand unsolicited advice. people tend to give it though, when they arent sure what to say, or when they assume that someone who is venting/complaining to them is looking for advice. weve all done it, its kind of like a nervous habit.

change your habit (it will be uncomfortable at first, possibly for both of you). you know her best, and have a better feel for what will "work" with her. often times, i will straight up ask a person if they want me to listen, or if they want feedback and advice, or i will base my approach on my personal relationship and experience with them.

What would examples of validating and invalidating look like, if say, we are having a general conversation, and I don’t necessarily agree with what she is saying…

this is one of the tricks when it comes to validating. validation is not the same thing as agreement, and you most certainly dont want to "agree" when you dont agree (you dont want to validate the invalid).

validation happens naturally when we take ourselves out of the equation (as much as possible) and put on our listening hat. you have done this before, we all have. the tendency though, when learning about it in this context, is to overthink it, or to use it as a way to try to soothe our partners. to successfully validate someone, it has to be sincere, natural, and you have to use the language that is common to you and your partner. anything else will sound forced and robotic, and your partner will see right through it.

Or, in the example of the late night conversation, I try to use really gentle language, and suggest that I was only bringing these things up so I could let go of some of that pain and try to move us closer together. I guess maybe I shouldn’t have even brought that topic up? Some have been saying that it makes no sense to try to rehash the past with borderlines.

i think this is more an issue of context, than validating or invalidating.

where the two of you are standing is a fragile place. there is distrust on both sides. there isnt really the ability, may not even necessarily be the willingness, to fix the pain and baggage that each of you carry. it may be best to work through these things on a personal level, and here on this board. it needs acknowledgment, for sure, but your partner may not be in the space to do that, generally speaking.

[formflier]

i am not BPD, and i cant stand unsolicited advice. people tend to give it though, when they arent sure what to say, or when they assume that someone who is venting/complaining to them is looking for advice. weve all done it, its kind of like a nervous habit.
 

Boy..this was an area that I had to carefully navigate..and still do sometimes struggle with it.

I love unsolicited advice...with the caveat that it's the start of a conversation.  Oh..I think you should do X...because of Y.

FF will probably say "interesting..I planned on doing Z because to me A is important.  Tell me more about your focus on Y."

What I HATE is people that want to tell you what to do and then refuse any further input or discussion.

So...guess where FFw went when things got bad.  She wanted to "control" me but didn't want to discuss and I would try to "explain" to her that conversations are better (you guys can imagine the rest)

Anyway...now I say something like "Sounds tough...do you want me to give you a hug or do you want me to go into "problem solving mode"?

or sometimes

"Ugg..that's rough."  I go ahead and give a hug or pat or some affection and say something to the effect of "if you want help problem solving..let me know"

I DO NOT give advice to her unless she specifically asks...at first she was a bit huffy but over time things are much more calm about this issue.

There is a big picture to this.  Some people assume that if you are giving the unsolicited advice...that you "don't believe in them" or " don't think they can solve it"..etc etc.  On our side we don't believe that at all...we just want to be helpful.

Do you "see" the other points of view?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

I completely get this perspective…

Are used to be a teacher for many years, because I believed in conveying things in life that I have learned along the way that I think would be valuable to someone else, similar to how they are valuable to me. I love comparing ideologies and advice.

When people offer me advice, I often listen intently and then weigh my options. I try to appreciate it. 

I think me trying to advise my partner, even though she never hesitate to boss me around in that way, I think it makes her feel like I’m condescending her. That’s not the intent at all, but I’d be happy to Convey that to her… Somehow, I think it has triggered something profound than her and turned her off completely.

I love to read inspirational quotes, see online advice, and listen to my therapist. I wouldn’t be getting upset to see the Dalai Lama post something motivational on the Internet and think “what a pretentious snob trying to tell people what to do“. I guess that’s just each persons way in life, though. I do feel like I’m being judged for it, though. I think that’s a BPD or narcissistic characteristic.

I do get it… Borderlines don’t do well with advice. I guess she hadn’t seemed very BPD for the weeks prior to that, so this kind of came out of the blue.

Did I already mentioned that my therapist seem to be thinking I should contact her? She said a lot of what you guys did… Keep it very brief and to the point… “I miss you, would you like to go out for a walk and maybe talk?“.

Part of me wonders why I would want to continue doing this to myself. It almost seems self abusive, but I know that she is much more than this disability.

Thoughts?

[once removed]

Did I already mentioned that my therapist seem to be thinking I should contact her? She said a lot of what you guys did… Keep it very brief and to the point… “I miss you, would you like to go out for a walk and maybe talk?“.

i tend to agree with your therapist.

general advice is not to chase and give space. its been what, a week? and she made this dramatic move. it calls for a response, but not an over reaction.

if its attention that she wants/ed, it puts the ball in her court. it doesnt chase. it doesnt over react, or put your heart on the line. strong and dignified. i just wouldnt do more than that, and she may take her time getting back.

[formflier]

Nothing "wrong" with your suggested wording.

I would tend to stay away from "miss you".

"Hey...saw a new ice cream place opened by the river walk.  My treat! "

Maybe send a link to the place or something.

The key is to place the "ball" in their court with minimum drama..minimum "emotion"...and let them go with it...without you pushing either way.

If you are like "miss you"...maybe you catch her ruminating about you and she is like "miss me your azz..he doesn't miss me...blah blah blah".

Whereas it's really really hard to screw up thinking about ice cream.

Not a right or wrong thing..just my take on it.

Put it out there and then leave it alone for a few weeks..unless there is a response.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

How about:

“Hey there... hope you are doing ok.  Would you like to join me for a morning walk at our usual place, in the next few days?  I’d like that... Let me know, ok? 

[Mr. Kelly]

Actually, now that I think about it… That message almost seems lame… Nothing personal, nothing sentimental… It almost feels like I should say something with a little more substance.  it’s been a week that we have had no contact. She probably hates me for not pestering her, even though I called her twice and she didn’t call me back.

Here’s my fantasy message…

“Hey... it’s been a while… I’ve missed you… I think we should talk, and see if we can figure out what happened and to see if we can come to grips with where we are at.“

That’s more of what I feel like I would want to say, but I’m guessing you guys might think that’s a little too prone to misinterpretation or anxiety?

[formflier]

That works...I wouldn't tell you NOT to send it especially if you have particular knowledge of her that she is responsive to that many words or that particular invitation.

Take it or leave it advice.

It's a lot of words.

The "let me know..ok?" thing at the end..some people may feel controlled by it or she may retort "when have I never let him know".

let me take  a stab at it.

"Been walking at our usual place.  Want to join me?  I'll bring coffee"  (or insert favorite beverage or something like that)

See how the first implies that she has been on your mind?   I like asking the direction question (you had that part dead to rights!)...then toss in a bonus (the coffee).

Now the fishing lure is out there...go on about your life and see if it gets a bite.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

“Hey... it’s been a while… I’ve missed you… I think we should talk, and see if we can figure out what happened and to see if we can come to grips with where we are at.“

 

NOOOO

Talking..figuring it all out..coming to grips  where are we at?  Ugg uggg triple ugg 

Would you rather get together with someone for a pleasant walk and a taste of your favorite beverage...or...would you rather do all the work that seems to go with "figuring it all out"

Hey man...open the door.  Make it look inviting and the go on with your life.  She may walk through..or she may not.

She may hate you...or she may not.

She may think your belly button is a secret recording device..or she may not.

Set the bait...and go on about your life.

Best,

FF

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

Talking..figuring it all out..coming to grips  where are we at?  Ugg uggg triple ugg  

its heavy. no one ever responded well to "we should talk".

edit: let her initiate/lead any "where are we at" discussions.

[Mr. Kelly]

NOOOO

Talking..figuring it all out..coming to grips  where are we at?  Ugg uggg triple ugg  

Would you rather get together with someone for a pleasant walk and a taste of your favorite beverage...or...would you rather do all the work that seems to go with "figuring it all out"

Hey man...open the door.  Make it look inviting and the go on with your life.  She may walk through..or she may not.

She may hate you...or she may not.

She may think your belly button is a secret recording device..or she may not.

Set the bait...and go on about your life.

Best,

FF

Ironically, she would probably tell you that I am the drama queen… And I do have my share, but it’s her that seems to get all hung up about stuff and makes way bigger deals out of things that are really nothing.

I do get what you’re saying about wordiness and not implying that the walk necessarily has to be to figure stuff out.

We do like to walk, but we don’t really have a “usual“ place, and the coffee place is right next to the entrance, so if we walk there, we usually stop for coffee there. It’s a neat little stop.

So… Kelly rewrite…

“Hi there… Care to join me for a walk up by the café in the next few days? We could stop for coffee afterwards.  It would be nice to see you.”

Still too many words?

[once removed]

i like it.

just understand there are no magic words she will respond positively to. its more a case of playing your best hand, and avoiding things she will respond negatively to. even if she responds positively, it may take some time.

[formflier]

I like it too.

Just me..I try to reduce words...but you obviously like them..so go for it.

I'll echo the "no magic words thing". 

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

its heavy. no one ever responded well to "we should talk".

edit: let her initiate/lead any "where are we at" discussions.

Well, it’s almost hard to imagine that if I see her after a week of silence that the topic of that silence isn’t going to surface. Usually, it’s me that will say something like “so, what’s been on your mind for the last week?”.

It’s going to be very hard to get out of there without saying something like that.

I don’t remember who initiated the “talk“ six weeks ago when we reconciled after a month. I’d be hard-pressed to tell you and how it even came about, but I think after going back-and-forth with her and professing my love to her in various texts over about two weeks, I finally just simplified it and said… “I’d be more than happy to get together with you and answer any questions that you have“, to which she replied, OK I’m available tomorrow.

If I think about it, That exact scenario has happened almost every time we have broken up. It almost seems to be expected.

That being said, she has said multiple times that she is very traditional and expects the man to lead and be the one to advance things. It’s like that every thing that we do. She’ll say “what are we going to do”, and I will say, I haven’t really thought about it yet what would you like to do do you have any ideas… “No, you can just pick some thing and we can go do it”.

I would much rather have her help in the process, with maybe suggesting some things or negotiating. I’d like that sense of partnership. She seems to just want to get on with it.

Also in the bedroom… I would love to see her give me an indication that she would like something to happen at some point… Most of the time, if I don’t initiate it, it ain’t happening.

I digress, but I guess it’s all part of the package. I do miss her terribly, but she’s so screwed up in a fairly profound way, and I am screwed up as well, but at least I seem to be able to unravel what’s going on in my brain and make sense of it… I’m not so sure with her. Well, I am sure. She’s not very good at it.

Part of this dilemma continues to go back to whether or not this is a workable situation for me. My therapist this morning asked me “what do you think you deserve?“. That’s a relevant question, even though it is a basic therapeutic question… Well, I know I don’t deserve to be kicked around regularly, even if it’s due to a mental health condition.  That’s no way for almost any person to live. It’s really not even a way for her to live, so I can empathize what she is likely going through, as well.

Maybe it’s true that this just isn’t the healthiest relationship for me… Well, obviously it really isn’t… So, I continue to ask myself the question, why do I want to do this?

There’s no easy answer, but I keep ruminating about it and wondering one way or the other. My brain can’t slow down… What if I lose her forever… Why would I want this forever… She’s been my best friend… She’s been my worst enemy…

I believe I am partly BPD myself, but somewhere in the middle of the trajectory. My therapist didn’t even mince words when we started to talk about trauma, she just automatically said… “Yeah, it’s obvious that you have a trauma history“.

My head is all screwed up regarding this, wondering if I had a little more self-confidence and nerve I would have texted her the first night she didn’t call me back and say “what the heck… Why didn’t you call me back?“. That might’ve put an end to all of this. I couldn’t do it. I was too neurotic that something bad was happening, like the million times before, and I was almost waiting for the ax to hit the back of my neck, if you know what I mean.

I probably shouldn’t judge myself harshly for feeling that way, because that’s pretty much the truth. I have felt that axe at the back of my head way more times than the average person should in any given relationship.

Then there’s the other side of that coin, with what an absolutely marvelous and beautiful partner she can be. As Ric Ocasek wrote… “It’s all mixed up…“.

[once removed]

Well, it’s almost hard to imagine that if I see her after a week of silence that the topic of that silence isn’t going to surface. Usually, it’s me that will say something like “so, what’s been on your mind for the last week?”.

It’s going to be very hard to get out of there without saying something like that.

i understand.

leading can look like a lot of different things. it can mean sitting back and being cool. people with bpd traits are especially attracted to strength and stability.

some of the things im suggesting/advising are a little bit generalized, a little bit "gender rolesy". but telegraphing insecurity really doesnt get anyone anywhere, and ive done enough of it for a lifetime. im no player/ladys man/whatever, but ive kept score of where ive gone wrong.

but its about human nature, too. shes pissed. she made a dramatic show of unfriending/blocking you/whatever. calmness and confidence will catch her off guard. "we should talk" will get you ignored, or she will say there is nothing to talk about.

in any event, im not saying "under no circumstances should you bring any of this up at any time". just be cool and go with the flow.

Part of this dilemma continues to go back to whether or not this is a workable situation for me. My therapist this morning asked me “what do you think you deserve?“. That’s a relevant question, even though it is a basic therapeutic question… Well, I know I don’t deserve to be kicked around regularly, even if it’s due to a mental health condition.  That’s no way for almost any person to live. It’s really not even a way for her to live, so I can empathize what she is likely going through, as well.

Maybe it’s true that this just isn’t the healthiest relationship for me… Well, obviously it really isn’t… So, I continue to ask myself the question, why do I want to do this?

theyre important questions. continue asking them. the wrong reasons are the wrong reasons, and the relationship will fail, or remain unhealthy/unstable. the right ones will give you clarity, and your best shot. these relationships arent picnics, and theyre a choice. they require one to really level up their skills, even on a good day. and at the same time, not all relationships are built to last, no matter what skills you bring to the table, and its valid to say "this isnt for me".

My head is all screwed up regarding this, wondering if I had a little more self-confidence and nerve I would have texted her the first night she didn’t call me back and say “what the heck… Why didn’t you call me back?“. That might’ve put an end to all of this. I couldn’t do it. I was too neurotic that something bad was happening, like the million times before, and I was almost waiting for the ax to hit the back of my neck, if you know what I mean.

just like if she doesnt respond to your message, it doesnt mean you chose the wrong words, this isnt about one incident here or there. its about a slow and steady breakdown of trust, of a relationship, and the uphill climb it takes to rebuild.

[Mr. Kelly]

i understand.

leading can look like a lot of different things. it can mean sitting back and being cool. people with bpd traits are especially attracted to strength and stability.

some of the things im suggesting/advising are a little bit generalized, a little bit "gender rolesy". but telegraphing insecurity really doesnt get anyone anywhere, and ive done enough of it for a lifetime. im no player/ladys man/whatever, but ive kept score of where ive gone wrong.

but its about human nature, too. shes pissed. she made a dramatic show of unfriending/blocking you/whatever. calmness and confidence will catch her off guard. "we should talk" will get you ignored, or she will say there is nothing to talk about.

in any event, im not saying "under no circumstances should you bring any of this up at any time". just be cool and go with the flow.

theyre important questions. continue asking them. the wrong reasons are the wrong reasons, and the relationship will fail, or remain unhealthy/unstable. the right ones will give you clarity, and your best shot. these relationships arent picnics, and theyre a choice. they require one to really level up their skills, even on a good day. and at the same time, not all relationships are built to last, no matter what skills you bring to the table, and its valid to say "this isnt for me".

just like if she doesnt respond to your message, it doesnt mean you chose the wrong words, this isnt about one incident here or there. its about a slow and steady breakdown of trust, of a relationship, and the uphill climb it takes to rebuild.

You are completely right… I don’t think she digs insecurity. That’s been pretty much how I’ve been handling her for the last few weeks. Insecurely.   I think she senses it, and I think that it makes her feel triggered in other areas. I’ve been very insecure… But I have been confidently guising it by telling her I want her to make decisions for herself, based on your comfort level of what she would like to do, rather than me leading. That hasn’t gone well, because I think she starts imagining things that just aren’t true.

I know by her personality that she is probably thinking “he needs to put on the big boy pants and get a grip on things“. That is her anxiety speaking, though.

That being said, she has many times said to me that when she is done with someone, she has done, and she doesn’t look back. Even though we’ve been through this exact same scenario about 12 times in the last year and a half, this one feels a bit different, and it’s too quick after the last make up. That worries me a lot.    She may just be done, for all I know. 

[Mr. Kelly]

I hate to keep pestering you guys with my stream of thoughts… But…

I have a reason to believe that my lady friend has characteristics of both NPD and BPD… She’s not way out of control a lot of the times, mostly when she splits, but I do see elements of it elsewhere.  I don’t mean to be judge mental, and I am certainly not really qualified to make these determinations… But somethings are fairly apparent…

Let’s just say that this split has narcissism written all over it, and her ghosting is meant as a punishment, because she feels I jave insulted her… Even though a neuroypical woman would never interpret the conversation that way… Let’s just say as a matter of discussion…

Wouldn’t Me reaching out to her in many ways be a sign of weakness? Wouldn’t that give her the impression that she has the power, because I am reaching out to her, and she can continue to use these kinds of strategies in the future, because it’s obvious I’m not going to hold her accountable for them?

[once removed]

chasing, begging, or pleading, would do that, yes. your message is confident and upbeat.

she is punishing you, in the sense that shes mad (about something(s) and wanted you to know it. thats not the same thing as NPD.

this isnt a woman in a power struggle, except with herself.

[Mr. Kelly]

I wonder about that… The narcissistic question.

She gets quite nasty when I even suggest something that contradicts what she is saying. That is one of the prominent thing that comes up in her splits… “You never listen to me, you are constantly disrespecting me“. That’s absolutely not true, but isn’t that something a narcissist does, and my disagreeing with her seems to trigger that. 

It’s fairly incessant, and anytime I say something even remotely contradictory to her, even if it is conversational, I can see it gets under her skin. It’s been that way since I’ve known her, and caused, or at least has contributed, to every different split.

Partially related question… What do you think it is about girls like this, or anyone, who have a hard time just calling me up or texting and say, “hey, I was kind of pissed about what you were saying today…”.

Why is that so hard for her to do, and consequently, why would it be so hard for her to get it that I didn’t want to keep pestering her if she didn’t respond to my first two phone calls? That would seem almost like a “duh” situation.  Why unfriend someone because they haven’t called you or texted you in a week? She may have no idea why I have or have not called her, and it shouldn’t take too many brain cells to figure out that if I called her twice and she didn’t call me back, well, how many more times am I going to call her?

What do you think is the root of all of that? Do you think it helps fill her narcissistic supply for me to beg, and when I don’t, then she starts to get anxious and want to punish?

I’m not sure of the thinking there.

[once removed]

She gets quite nasty when I even suggest something that contradicts what she is saying. That is one of the prominent thing that comes up in her splits… “You never listen to me, you are constantly disrespecting me“. That’s absolutely not true, but isn’t that something a narcissist does, and my disagreeing with her seems to trigger that.  

when trying (the best most of us can do without a diagnosis) to better understand where your loved one is on the (any given) spectrum, its important to look at what is driving it (and when it comes to a diagnosis, the severity of it, which is difficult for a loved one to do objectively, all of it feels severe to us).

for example, people with bpd lie. people with npd lie. everyone, to some degree, lies. what drives the lying? whats the motivation behind the lying?

what you are describing is extremely commonplace with BPD. could it be something more? it could. could it be something less like high sensitivity or immaturity? it could.

this can help. check out the other resources in the top left corner of your screen under "Diagnosis+Treatment": https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder

whether its bpd or npd, or more, or less, you love someone with a high degree of sensitivity, and a high degree of sensitivity when it comes to rejection, invalidation, perceived slights, or criticism.

Partially related question… What do you think it is about girls like this, or anyone, who have a hard time just calling me up or texting and say, “hey, I was kind of pissed about what you were saying today…”.

to do so requires a level of trust and vulnerability, something that isnt easy for your loved one; either that, or someone who will fire off at you for the littlest thing. people with bpd traits are needy, generally very needy, and tend to pick...less than constructive ways of meeting their needs or having their needs met.

Why is that so hard for her to do

fear of rejection, of vulnerability, being stuck in her ways/having gotten results from those ways...or anger, or pride, or any of the other reasons we all tend to do dysfunctional things.

Why unfriend someone because they haven’t called you or texted you in a week?

possibly to get your attention, but otherwise, the same reason that members who are going through a breakup decide to block someone not speaking to them.

Do you think it helps fill her narcissistic supply for me to beg, and when I don’t, then she starts to get anxious and want to punish?

no. i think that might be giving too much credit to a person who doesnt have a plan, as such, so much as she is reacting, to you, to her emotions, in the only way she knows how. mental illness isnt a super power. it can be confusing when we are in it especially, but there is a human nature rhyme and reason to most things.

[formflier]

Circling back to an earlier point...make sure she brings "it" up..don't lead her to anything.

If she brings it up...be curious and listen. 

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Circling back to an earlier point...make sure she brings "it" up..don't lead her to anything.

If she brings it up...be curious and listen. 

Best,

FF

Thanks!

That’s pretty much exactly what I did last time, and it seem to work well.

When we did start talking about our problems, I started talking a lot about what I have been learning about trauma, and trauma survivors, without actually bringing up BPD… And I was relating it to myself, but she was glued to what I was saying…

Didn’t hear a peep about it, after that.

[Mr. Kelly]

I just had a really interesting thought…

What if I sent her what seemed like a random text… Which simply said…

“You know… Whenever I see a picture if you on my phone, all I can do is smile… I hope you are doing well. Would you like to go for a walk some day this week?“

It’s pathetically sad that somethings so simple can turn so dramatic unnecessarily.

[Mr. Kelly]

New thought…

I awaken today with this thought… My lady friend is likely too smart to fall for a simple uncomplicated message to her… She’s going to think I’m trying to play her, unless I start talking about why am asking her to get together.

I have almost no doubt that even if I sent her a simple “hey let’s go for a walk“ text, she’s going to come back with drama and insist on going more rounds.

I think I’m prepared for that, by responding “I don’t think it helps either of us to go back-and-forth like this now. If you’d like to talk about these things as we walk, which has served us well in the past, I think that would be best“.

Of course, she’s going to feel the shifting power, and think I am condescending and obnoxious, based on the frame of mind she may be in.

I still think there is a considerable amount of power optics going on in her behavoir.  Mine, too, if you think about it. I am trying to make a point by not contacting her, which is my passive way of conveying to her that her behavior was not OK, and I’m not going to chase her. In her brain, she’s going to think that’s a power struggle on my part, which technically, it is.

[once removed]

power struggles (or fear of rejection, or fear of vulnerability, or pride, or...), in this case, are human nature.

theres nothing that applies to people with bpd traits that doesnt to the rest of us, the difference is just the extremes (we all have a fear of abandonment, some more, some less, people around bpd adapt their entire lives around it, for example), and the extent to which it is or isnt pathological.

you may be overthinking this. i can understand why, and i have the same tendency.

you cant really control how she receives the message, and it may take her some time to process...she may feel multiple ways about it. its a good message.

preparing for how/if she responds is smart. you may want to take a little time on it, bring it to the boards, and get some feedback.

[tvda]

Mr. Kelly... I don't mean to be harsh to you... But has it occurred to you that a lot of what you are writing feels like a mix between the "denial" and "bargaining" phase of mourning?

You seem to be consumed with the composition of one message... I hope you are doing okay and still functioning outside of this part of your life. And I wish you well.

You know what I sometimes think when I read this thread? Why not "do nothing"? In the end, if you want her to come back, she is the only person who can decide this... And if there is one thing I've learned about women, it's that if they don't feel it, there is nothing you can do to sway them.

Maybe it's best to just sit this one out, and start to let go and process your grief. If you get "lucky", it might trigger her fear of abandonment and she might come back. Or charm you because her plans without you failed. And if not, you will have gained time already processing...

[Mr. Kelly]

power struggles (or fear of rejection, or fear of vulnerability, or pride, or...), in this case, are human nature.

theres nothing that applies to people with bpd traits that doesnt to the rest of us, the difference is just the extremes (we all have a fear of abandonment, some more, some less, people around bpd adapt their entire lives around it, for example), and the extent to which it is or isnt pathological.

you may be overthinking this. i can understand why, and i have the same tendency.

you cant really control how she receives the message, and it may take her some time to process...she may feel multiple ways about it. its a good message.

preparing for how/if she responds is smart. you may want to take a little time on it, bring it to the boards, and get some feedback.

You are right, 0R… Thanks for the nudge.

What did you think of my slightly more personal version of the check in text?

said…

“You know… Whenever I see a picture if you on my phone, all I can do is smile… I hope you are doing well. Would you like to go for a walk some day this week?“

This would probably be something much more believable to her. Is it pushing a little too hard? I think it may be.

[Mr. Kelly]

Mr. Kelly... I don't mean to be harsh to you... But has it occurred to you that a lot of what you are writing feels like a mix between the "denial" and "bargaining" phase of mourning?

You seem to be consumed with the composition of one message... I hope you are doing okay and still functioning outside of this part of your life. And I wish you well.

You know what I sometimes think when I read this thread? Why not "do nothing"? In the end, if you want her to come back, she is the only person who can decide this... And if there is one thing I've learned about women, it's that if they don't feel it, there is nothing you can do to sway them.

Maybe it's best to just sit this one out, and start to let go and process your grief. If you get "lucky", it might trigger her fear of abandonment and she might come back. Or charm you because her plans without you failed. And if not, you will have gained time already processing...

These are all very valid thoughts, thank you.

I read an article in psychology today that said that people who have a hard time making up their minds and are indecisive often make better decisions in the long run, because they don’t make quick decisions that are more likely to fail. I don’t know how much I believe that in this case, but I will take it for what it is… :-)

I am indecisive for the exact reason you described. If I reach out to her, it could start the merry-go-round spinning fastly all over again. Part of me cares enough about her to maybe want to endure that. Part of me isn’t sure I’ve got it left in me.

I know she values the good that we have shared. I think both of us could probably say it has been the most connected and intense relationship we maybe have ever each had… 

It’s completely possible that she has disconnected, has it wrapped up in her brain that it’s just to screw it up, and that we are just too different to work effectively, and she has unplugged her feelings.

In many ways, that would be pathetically sad. So, because I don’t really know what she’s thinking, I haven’t quite yet started the process of mourning.  Hard to say if I ever will. I could take this girl’s legacy to my grave.

[formflier]

Hey...I am a major "overthinker".  I used to be much worse at it.  So please believe me when my "overthinker alert" goes off.

Simple is better.  Let her "call you on it".  Stay simple..stay chill.

Best,

FF

[tvda]

I know she values the good that we have shared. I think both of us could probably say it has been the most connected and intense relationship we maybe have ever each had…  

Hi Mr. Kelly - just a fair warning... Don't make yourself crazy or infinitely sad with thoughts like these... There must be a lot of cognitive dissonance going through your head at the moment, because the way she is treating you does not correspond with what you write above... Watch her actions, not her words.

And most of all... How do you know the above is true? I am sure this is what YOU felt. And I am equally sure this is what she TOLD you. Maybe you are correct. But you don't know. I can tell you two things: after 18 months of superintense passion, supposed connection and sky-high declarations of love, it became clear in half a day, that it was all a lie. A lie that she herself possibly believed in at times, but nonetheless a lie.

Hard to say if I ever will. I could take this girl’s legacy to my grave.

I'm just going to ask you one thing: please consider the option that maybe you will move past this faster and more easily than you think. One week ago I was hurting beyond belief and thinking "I'll never be able to process this". This week... I can't say I'm doing well, but I can definitely say "I don't love her anymore - and I don't think I ever want to talk to her again."

Don't lose yourself in dramatic thinking. The change starts with yourself, your own beliefs and your own intention.

[once removed]

“You know… Whenever I see a picture if you on my phone, all I can do is smile… I hope you are doing well. Would you like to go for a walk some day this week?“

This would probably be something much more believable to her. Is it pushing a little too hard? I think it may be.

you would have a better idea of if that message is more likely to be well received.

from where im sitting, it reads as something that is especially romantic, in a context that doesnt really fit, and might confuse her (or piss her off for that matter).

I am indecisive for the exact reason you described.

i get it, too. when ive been anxious about a girl, i always over thought everything (i still do) and id lean on my friends. its a lot easier for your fellow overthinkers to see these things more objectively as we arent directly involved.

[Mr. Kelly]

I am a complete over thinker and over the hill anxious about all of this…

I’ve been like this my whole adult life… It’s hard to really say where it came from, but I have this absolute panic over the thought of abandonment.

It’s not without history. At the risk of seeming like i’m trying to be a victim... I am approaching senior citizen ship… I don’t attract partners easily, and I feel like I’m running out of time.

It’s true that I have to be the pioneer of my own ship, and truthfully, after we were broken up for a month until about six weeks ago, I was getting to the point where I was functioning OK and starting to look forward more than backward. I do believe that will eventually happen. It’s a matter of whether I want it to happen.

This may be the only girl in my adult life that I have been able to let go a lot of my anxiety with, and really felt valued for who I was. I don’t think it’s an act. I think we have a lot in common, but we don’t have in common is culture.

I pretty much grew up out in the woods in Canada, and she grew up in an inner-city in Massachusetts. She is rough and tumble, where I am earthy crunchy/touchy-feely. Sometimes it really works well, but often times there are clashes of culture.

She leans hard one way politically, and get sucked into the politics of the simplest of conversations, whereas I lean fairly heavily the other way.  Many of our earlier splits were because I would disagree with her in a fairly aggressive manner, and she would label that is disrespect and go into a split.

There are times where I even wonder why it bothers me that she splits like this. I’ve been through it so many times, and each and every time I wonder if I will ever see her again, or ever wake up next to her. Then, the inevitable seems to happen… She says really nasty things to me by text, we go back-and-forth about a dozen times, I invite her out to talk, and we start dating again as if nothing happened.

It’s the classic push/pull cycle. Each time, there seems to be evidence that things are getting better, and maybe this time we will last longer… It just hasn’t happened.

Another thing that is relevant… I pretty much live by myself out in the woods, with my young teenage daughter here half the time.  I do have a musical group I plan which gets me out once a week, but for the most part, I spent an inordinate amount of time by myself, alone, ruminating about my belly button.  That’s tough.

I do the best I can… I go out to eat once in a while by myself, or up into the mountains for an overnighter, etc. But loneliness sets in, and it sucks. I suspect you guys all know exactly what I’m talking about. This last year has not been easy in that way. The one coming up may not be any better in my camp.

So, I do know what I need to do. I need to either let this girl go, or I need to get better at managing how I react to her when she starts to get complicated.

I did neurotic things this time around. When she didn’t call me as expected, I got pouty and felt rejected, and went and slumped in the corner, rather than pick up the damn phone and call her and say hi. That would have likely been a complete game changer right there, but I just didn’t have it in me. I felt defeated and I sensed bad things were coming, so I chickened out and left her alone, which in itself isn’t a terrible decision. It just lent itself to a terrible result.

I digress.

[once removed]

i completely get it. im an obsessive person, myself. just weeks ago, i was an absolute basket case to my friends over a pretty simple encounter with a gal. not anxiety over someone id been in a relationship with, mind you.

youre right; for all of us, those things dont change, necessarily, at least not dramatically, its more about management. for example, i still get anxious about things like "should i talk to her, should i let her talk to me", but i dont act on anxiety.

theres a lot to consider here. you want to play your best hand. we want to help you do that.

overthinking, in this case, was more referring to what is or isnt going on in her own mind. not only can you not control that, but in my experience, i have a tendency to imagine more (or less) going on for the other person than actually is. i think thats generally true for most of us in these relationships. what feels to us one way isnt necessarily an accurate reflection of them or where theyre coming from.

its also important to consider how much of that is driving you here. remember, right reasons and wrong reasons.

[Mr. Kelly]

Oh, geez.

I ended up sending out the text I described here, the simple one, a little while ago.

She responded, and asked about my plans for the night, and for my daytime, but never actually said that she was interested in excepting my offer for a walk, although I guess that’s presumed.

Now, I’m hugely anxious as to what she’s going to say during that walk that I suspect will be coming.  I suspect I’m going to hear, “Kelly, you and I are just not on the same page and I just don’t see it working in the long run”.

I’m very anxious… Any thoughts or recommendations?

[Mr. Kelly]

So… She seems interested in going for a walk, but it’s hard to say what she may have in mind as a goal.

I guess she could’ve said “Kelly, we’ve been down this road too many times, and I don’t think going for a walk is going to fix anything“. She didn’t say that.

However, my fearful brain also thinks that this could be her opportunity to start reinforcing her walls that her and I are just not meant to be.

Her responses were fairly brief, and without much warmth.  I guess I shouldn’t expect anything differently, all things considered.

I did tell her I could easily rearrange my afternoon and meet her later in the afternoon, but she told me not to rearrange anything and she would see how the day unfolds, considering her current plans.

Not bad, I guess, but not a lot to hang my hat on.

[formflier]

Dont worry about what to say.  Be honest.

She says a bunch of stuff.

You say "I hear you it's important and I will give it some thought."

Then keep listening.

You can do this. 

Best

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you FF…

My fear is that if I am honest with her, I am going to open up wounds and potential continued splitting.

She has said to me many times during these kinds of situations… “I just don’t think we are right for each other“. I have always suspected that this is coming from a trauma response, so I can often ease her discomfort and slide her back into the relationship…

I know that it is often recommended not to say certain things when trying to resurrect from a split… For example, I have to stay away from saying anything that indicates that what she is saying or feeling is not true or invalid… Correct?

I have to try to respond using DBT elements of SET and JADE… I should look those up again and re-familiarize myself with them.

I’m not even sure what my goal is with getting together with her.

[formflier]

My fear is that if I am honest with her, I am going to open up wounds and potential continued splitting.
 

I should have been more specific.  Only ONLY be honest about "not knowing what to say". 

That will allow you to be "genuine" and also likely empathetic.

DO NOT be honest with her about ANY OTHER MATTER. 

Listen..."that sounds important, will give it thought...not sure what to say at the moment" and variations of that.

Best,

FF
Best,

[Mr. Kelly]

OK… I think I understand.

So I should absolutely, really, keep my mouth shut about anything related to how I feel, or what I have been experiencing over the last week, and I should only go there to listen…

She will likely want for me to say something… And typically, which I’ve gotten much better at, I mostly say, “I care about you, and I will try as hard as I can to do whatever I can to make you feel wanted and needed and cared about“.

Should I be limiting my responses to mostly that kind of sentiment?

[once removed]

one of the best ways to listen is to ask questions.

why does she think youre not right for each other?

[Mr. Kelly]

one of the best ways to listen is to ask questions.

why does she think youre not right for each other?

I do ask a lot of questions… Maybe too many… :-)

Is one of the questions that I should ask her “why do you not think we are right for each other?”, Or are you asking me that… Why does she think we are not right for each other?

[Mr. Kelly]

Do you think it is at all useful for me to ask questions like…

-What have you been experiencing this past week?

-What have you been thinking about regarding me, and what was it that made you distance for the past week?

I’m guessing the answer is no, don’t ask these kinds of questions…

My gut is telling me to go in there and say nothing, ask nothing, and expect nothing, and just hear what she has to say… Then maybe end it with a “I’ll do the best I can to be the best I can for you, if that’s acceptable”.

[once removed]

I’m guessing the answer is no, don’t ask these kinds of questions…

i wouldnt.

i was asking you, but im also suggesting when she says things like that, inquire further. listen, dont argue, or assert your point of view.

My gut is telling me to go in there and say nothing, ask nothing, and expect nothing, and just hear what she has to say… Then maybe end it with a “I’ll do the best I can to be the best I can for you, if that’s acceptable”.

and/or just show her a fun time.

[Mr. Kelly]

I suspect she will be incapable of having a fun time…

She will be telling me that her work is continuing to stress her out and how she doesn’t think she can do it anymore… And her life is miserable. That kind of thing. She’s in a tough space. She always seems to be. That’s probably the borderline in her.

I think it sometimes irks her when I just try to have fun in such circumstances. I think she’s going to want to try to absorb as much energy as she can regarding her and I, and she will likely be wanting to hear all my wisdoms, as I usually convey them.  It’s that same wisdom that comes back to bite me in the rear, when it doesn’t align with her expectation of me.

Well, she has said over and over that she thinks we are just too different, which I think is silly, because all partners seem to be different… But we do have areas that we constantly struggle with, or at least she is struggling with me…

We differ politically, which is the main thing. I think it gets under her skin when she hears me say anything regarding politics. It gets under my skin when I hear her spewing the hatred that she often does, but I’ve been able to let go of that somewhat. Still, I know it’s a strong bone of contention between us.

Plus, I think she keeps score… Whenever I say something that may contradict something that she has said, or implies that I have a different opinion on something, it’s often stored in her brain, and comes out with hostility during a split…

Here is a simple example, she was saying a couple of weeks ago that she couldn’t understand why I didn’t put an air conditioner in my main window… And I avoided telling her why, and then she later repeated that I should put an air conditioner in there, and finally, I told her why I didn’t do that, and what led me to think that I may refrain from doing that.

Something as innocuous as that often makes her feel like I don’t listen to her, and that I am a know it all, etc. Again, it’s all in her brain. It’s about perception. Even if I’ve done a ton of research on something, and will tell her what I have researched, if it contradicts something she has already suggested to me, she takes that as a slight.

I told her before her last big split back in April that I was researching putting solar panels on the house. She came up with every conceivable reason why solar panels were a bad idea. When I calmly and matter-of-factly explained all the research that I had done, it contradicted almost everything that she said. I could tell that she wanted no part of that conversation and felt pissed that I was contradicting her.

It almost feels like I can talk about almost nothing with her, because if I say something that contradicts something that she says, It almost always comes back as “you never listen to me, and you constantly belittle what I tell you”.

It’s a power struggle, and most of the time she doesn’t have the tools to win. I don’t care about the power struggle part of it. I just like to know about things, and I research stuff, and I like to talk about stuff and compare ideas. To her, that is arguing and debating. It gets under her skin to no end.

It would almost seem like if her and I were to move in together, or something, within weeks, we could barely talk to each other, because anything I say would be taken as hostile or out of context.

It’s hard to say which end is up or down with this girl.

And you wonder why I would want to stay with her? Well, she has a whole different side to her personality that is a loving, thoughtful and giving. Maybe that’s just an illusion, though, I couldn’t tell you.

[formflier]

and/or just show her a fun time.

Big picture:  Resist "talking" about a relaxing safe relationship...put your focus on "doing" one of those relationships...there is plenty of time to talk later.

Now...if she wants to talk now..listen now.  Instead of asking "interview questions" with specificity...ask very broad open ended questions and...listen.

Prepare for a lighthearted and hopefully fun way of looking at a serious point.

her:  blah blah blah...we are NOT right for each other...you need to use deodorant...I don't like that booger peeking out of your nose and quit turning me into a newt...I might think you are a witch (FF bonus points available if you name the reference).

So..look at all those invitations to fight/argue/jade...let's pick one of them...you could JADE and explain that a proctologist moonlighting as an ENT doc certified you booger free and since you have that certification it must mean she has bad eyesight and that probably affected your relationship and if she got a DBT workbook, answered thoughtfully about what she had been doing for the past week and admitted to the pain she caused you by falsely accusing you of "booger peeking" and would get her own nose checked then...just possibly...she might have a future with you...

or

(in a chill way) "Wow...I'm listening, tell me more."

 

Keep repeating to yourself..be chill and listen.  

You've got this.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

Well, she has said over and over that she thinks we are just too different, which I think is silly, because all partners seem to be different… But we do have areas that we constantly struggle with, or at least she is struggling with me…

then she isnt wrong.

the question is whether or not you can overcome those things as a couple, and to do that, you by and large need to find new, healthier/more compatible dynamics, ways of approaching these things.

for example, some couples fight a lot more than average, but are otherwise a strong couple. thats because it isnt about the amount of fights, its how the two of them deal with them, how they treat each other, whether they resolve them, or what they do if they cant resolve them.

Something as innocuous as that often makes her feel like I don’t listen to her, and that I am a know it all, etc. Again, it’s all in her brain. It’s about perception.

some of this is inevitable. you love a highly sensitive person, prone to easily feeling rejected, slighted, criticized, or invalidated.

i wouldnt necessarily say its all in her brain. her brain exaggerates it, and makes her more prone to feeling strongly about innocuous things, but in the bigger picture, shes insecure and feels in a "one down" position (to some extent, she probably always will), and there may be things that you say or do that reinforce that dynamic. i had the same problem, and in retrospect, in a lot of ways, my ex wasnt wrong.

[Mr. Kelly]

Well, in so many ways, it really comes down to her.

I think I have always done, and will do, my part. I have always been pretty good at listening to what she says and responding calmly. In a typical situation, I would probably get five gold stars with the way I have been calm and sensitive and reaffirming. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I think it’s considerably more her inability to regulate her emotions, then it is anything I have ever done or will do, with perhaps the exception of just a few times.

I am glad you guys have been able to offer pointers and suggestions. I am certainly going to try to implement the strategies.

All I can do is the best I can do, I suppose. I’m certainly not the life of the party, so it’s gonna be hard to go there and have fun. But I can go there and listen, and be sympathetic, and try to be thoughtful. That’s what I do all the time, so I suppose tomorrow will be no different.

[Mr. Kelly]

Yes, she is probably not wrong. Just who I am in the world likely makes her feel invalidated. I’m kind of brainy, and she’s kind of reactionary. Maybe that’s just not the right combination for her. I guess she wouldn’t be wrong in that regard.

Where she may be wrong, is that we have some really powerful things that we do have in common, that in my opinion, way overshadow the pitfalls of the aforementioned things that we don’t do well with.

Those are the things that I’ve always tried to prioritize and point out to her.  I think that’s what keeps her going. She feels the same strengths, but the weaknesses knock her around.

[formflier]

  always tried to prioritize and point out to her.  

Just a thought...anything you are like "I've always done x"...you should probably sit that on the shelf for a while.

Chill..listen...no newts..

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Is it a bad idea to add any details about what I have been experiencing over the last week? I’ve really missed her and have not been doing well.

I guess I am supposed to go there and just refrain from any indications of negative energy, and try to remain completely positive and fun?

She is going to be very negative. It’s going to be really hard not to respond to some of that with my own truth.  It almost seems that my own truth is not relevant in the situation, which seems really stifling.

[once removed]

Is it a bad idea to add any details about what I have been experiencing over the last week? I’ve really missed her and have not been doing well.

think about it. what is she supposed to do with that information? in what way would it be constructive or improve your relationship?

She is going to be very negative. It’s going to be really hard not to respond to some of that with my own truth.  It almost seems that my own truth is not relevant in the situation, which seems really stifling.

maybe. wait and see.

your truth is relevant. what you do with it is another matter. think of it as trying a new dynamic, approaching things in a new way. youre learning a new way of communicating; like learning a new style of essay writing, its always uncomfortable and awkward, and then you master it.

[Mr. Kelly]

think about it. what is she supposed to do with that information? in what way would it be constructive or improve your relationship?

maybe. wait and see.

your truth is relevant. what you do with it is another matter. think of it as trying a new dynamic, approaching things in a new way.

Your points are really good ones, but a relationship is supposed to be about two people validating each others truths and adding to them in a positive way.  I’m not sure what your suggestion is saying about that.

I know that she is not likely to be able to use that information usefully at that particular moment… But what about moving forward? Do I have to just swallow anything that I feel may be pertinent to my own self development, particularly if it involves her or her behavior?

[once removed]

Your points are really good ones, but a relationship is supposed to be about two people validating each others truths and adding to them in a positive way.  I’m not sure what your suggestion is saying about that.

this will never be an equal relationship in that regard; that is something your loved one struggles with.

ideally, two people in a relationship make each other laugh. sometimes one partner isnt funny.

sometimes these are valid deal breakers and differences between two people. sometimes theyre just differences, that other things make up for. thats a very personal call.

I know that she is not likely to be able to use that information usefully at that particular moment… But what about moving forward? Do I have to just swallow anything that I feel may be pertinent to my own self development, particularly if it involves her or her behavior?

it isnt a black and white thing. im not suggesting stifling yourself in general, so much as recognizing where she is, where you are, and the context of the situation. youre talking about heavy stuff, in a time where its only going to drag things down. you want to let her know shes hurt you; im not suggesting you suck it up and ignore it, im suggesting that you find constructive outlets.

[Mr. Kelly]

Point well taken… I saw a video recently that said just that… We are not going to change these ladies, or gentlemen, so we need to find different outlets to bring us validity and pleasure, and learn to appreciate what it is about our relationships that is good, and not continue to lament what isn’t.

Ironically, I have been so much better at that over the last six months… It just seems like my lady friend goes from one excuse to another to push me away.  on the other hand, it’s always been that way.

Should I refrain from making any kind of suggestions tomorrow? For example, this may have even rubbed her wrong last week… But I said to her on numerous occasions, “if you need to take some time for yourself, I want you to do that. I want you to be able to be comfortable getting together and coming over to my house. If you need to say no to me, I want you to know that it is OK for you to do that“.

I get the impression she may feel annoyed when I say stuff like that. I don’t know exactly what annoys her. It could be that it sounds condescending, as if she isn’t capable of figuring these things out on her own… Or maybe it tells her that I don’t really care whether I’m with her or not…

Maybe I’ve answered my own question.

[once removed]

Should I refrain from making any kind of suggestions tomorrow? For example, this may have even rubbed her wrong last week… But I said to her on numerous occasions, “if you need to take some time for yourself, I want you to do that. I want you to be able to be comfortable getting together and coming over to my house. If you need to say no to me, I want you to know that it is OK for you to do that“.

I get the impression she may feel annoyed when I say stuff like that. I don’t know exactly what annoys her. It could be that it sounds condescending, as if she isn’t capable of figuring these things out on her own… Or maybe it tells her that I don’t really care whether I’m with her or not…

i have the tendency to do that sort of thing myself.

think about it. adults dont need to be told theyre allowed to say no. its well intentioned, but it can be perceived as talking down to someone, a trap a lot of us fall into. yes, it could send mixed signals or come off as wishy washy as well.

[Mr. Kelly]

I have to say, I have always had the capacity to annoy people with how I present myself… I didn’t grow up anywhere around here where I am, and I think I somewhat speak a different language than the average person here does…

I look differently, I speak differently… And I think that that could be problematic with a girl like my partner, who is local… I think she sometimes interprets my demeanor as being “an elitist“, or a brainiac. I think that makes her feel insecure.  

I don’t try to be those things. It’s just who I am in the world, like it or not. I don’t really want to dumb down for anyone, or not be interested in the things that I am, or not convey things to people that I feel are important to me.

That may go to compatibility, though… If I am not compatible to her, since who I am pushing her buttons, then maybe we are getting closer to finding out what tomorrows walk is going to reveal.

[Mr. Kelly]

I think me saying those kinds of things to her is my own insecurity coming out. I think I want to convey to her that I am open minded, eager to please her, and will do what I can to be flexible.

That likely comes from a place of neediness, and the need to be excepted, then it does for what I would really want. I wanted her to come over. She didn’t. I tried to not make her feel badly about it. Maybe I should’ve just told her how I felt, which is that I missed her and I wished she would have come.

[Mr. Kelly]

Should I fess up and tell her that I was upset about things that happened?

For example, she didn’t call me back when she said she would. I do have a way that is pretty good about turning those things around… Instead of saying “I was upset that you didn’t call me back“. Often times, I will try to say something like, “you know, if you tell me that you were going to call me, can you try to make sure that you call me back? Sometimes, it hurts my feelings when that happens.”

Is that not a productive kind of way of bringing something like that up?

Plus, what do I do if she starts saying the usual stuff like “I don’t think you and I are on the same page”. Do I just not say anything and let it go? Do I say, “well, I’m sorry you feel that way. I will respect your wishes on it.”

There’s part of me that suspects that she is black and white on that. Sometimes it’s gray, sometimes she’s triggered. Deep down, I know she cares about me and wants to make it work. How do I straddle that line without allowing her to let me go?

How do I handle the negativity that she is likely going to toss my way?

[once removed]

its the balance of navigating the world, of navigating relationships.

there are things about all of us. some of them are who we are. some of them are things we can change. some are both. some are compatible with others, some are not. some are things that are hard to see, until we do, and then its up to us what, if anything, we do about it.

while i think this is true for women in general, people with bpd traits do not deal well with our insecurity or neediness. it has to do with the fear of engulfment, it has to do with a lack of skill, and it has to do with their own neediness; of having a "rock" in their lives.

fair? it doesnt feel like it. but, as a guy that can be pretty needy, ive found its just a "men are from mars, women are from venus" kind of thing. i can decide "well, im a needy person and i am who i am", or i can adapt.

For example, she didn’t call me back when she said she would. I do have a way that is pretty good about turning those things around… Instead of saying “I was upset that you didn’t call me back“. Often times, I will try to say something like, “you know, if you tell me that you were going to call me, can you try to make sure that you call me back? Sometimes, it hurts my feelings when that happens.”

its not, in this case, about what you say or not. its the context. youre trying to save a relationship. its just not the time to vent your hurts.

Plus, what do I do if she starts saying the usual stuff like “I don’t think you and I are on the same page”. Do I just not say anything and let it go? Do I say, “well, I’m sorry you feel that way. I will respect your wishes on it.”

listen. ask why. genuinely seek to learn more and better understand.

the number one thing that is necessary in a relationship with someone with bpd traits (any relationship, really) is empathy; understanding where a person is coming from.

if she says "i dont think you and i are on the same page", she isnt wrong; its a valid belief, one you happen to disagree with. if you want to be on the same page, you have to start from that place of acceptance, and you have to understand it; understand where shes coming from. only then can you change it.

that, by the way, is validation in a nutshell.

[once removed]

think about it. if you were seeing someone who said "you just dont do it for me in bed", you wouldnt say "of course i do!", right?

youd want to know why, and what you can do differently. maybe it can change, maybe its an incompatibility.

[Mr. Kelly]

OK with all of those things that you say in mind… What would be my response when she says that we are just not on the same page…

Would I say, “well, you are saying that it’s really important for you that we are on the same page… What can we do, or what can I do, to perhaps make that better?“

That would be my typical response in that kind of situation. Is this going to seem too eager to her? What will I say?  If I say nothing, I kind of feel like I am agreeing with her.  

[once removed]

i think that would be fine.

or like FF has suggested, just lettering her know youre interested in hearing why she thinks that. thinking it over isnt agreeing with her. its emotional regulation, its thoughtfulness, its resisting fear, and its just a good way to process information.

it also catches people off guard, in a good way.

[once removed]

that, by the way, is not to say you can never talk about how you feel.

its to defer it for a better time. often times, its better to invite the other person to speak, let some time pass, perhaps revisit it in order to learn more (their answer can change), and then, maybe, revisit it again, and state how you feel. one way of doing that would be simply to talk about the aspects of your relationship you really like, the things you think are really strong. she will be more likely to hear that, and to consider that, if you do the above.

this is one example, by the way. its not a blanket answer for what to do every time feelings come up or an opinion is expressed.

[Mr. Kelly]

Interesting… Let me put some thought into it… :-)

So, what would I do to proceed if she doesn’t offer any olive branches, and things seem to be left open ended… Meaning… I get together with her tomorrow, we have coffee, we chit chat… Then she has to leave.

Typically, in that situation, by that point, we would have clarified where we were headed, and we would have made some formal declaration of intent.

If I don’t feel any declarations of intent, should I let it go, and consider it at least a positive interaction, and then be considering the next move, or should I bring up at the end… “So… Where does that leave us?“

[kells76]

another perspective to add:

If I told my DH (about whatever issue, or our relationship, or anything high-emotion) that I didn't think we were on the same page...

it'd mean a LOT to me if he said "tell me more"... and meant it (tone, body language, etc).

Sometimes saying "Why do you think that", depending on the tone, can come across as accusatory -- like it isn't a justified thought or feeling.

It's great that you are thinking of how to make it better:

Would I say, “well, you are saying that it’s really important for you that we are on the same page… What can we do, or what can I do, to perhaps make that better?“

That would be my typical response in that kind of situation. Is this going to seem too eager to her? What will I say?  If I say nothing, I kind of feel like I am agreeing with her.  

Consider, maybe, not leading with that. It could, as you are wondering, come across not the way you intend (I think you intend "helpful" and "wanting to fix things"; it could come across as "I have no time to listen to you, and want to get right to the fixing part")

It could have a good place in the interaction after a long time of really, actively listening to her.

...

Other "validating questions"/"validating phrases", besides "tell me more", could be:

"I'm listening... what else is going on?"

"yes... yeah... uh huh" (again, tone/body language of warmth, interest)

"that makes a lot of sense"

"I'd love to hear more"

"how did you feel about that"

"oh wow... uh huh"

"that makes sense that you feel that way"

...

Just my 2 cents -- I'd probably stay away from the "Why do you... why did you... " starts to questions, and I'd try to save any "how can we fix this" to after listening to her and how she feels.

I know for me, if I tell my DH something like "I've just been feeling overwhelmed thinking of our friend who had a stroke" and he leads with "How about you send him a card", I get angry because I feel like he isn't picking up on how I don't need any ideas of what to do, what I want is someone empathetic to see me and how I'm feeling in that moment.

Really glad you are here posting and figuring stuff out.

[Mr. Kelly]

another perspective to add:

If I told my DH (about whatever issue, or our relationship, or anything high-emotion) that I didn't think we were on the same page...

it'd mean a LOT to me if he said "tell me more"... and meant it (tone, body language, etc).

Sometimes saying "Why do you think that", depending on the tone, can come across as accusatory -- like it isn't a justified thought or feeling.

It's great that you are thinking of how to make it better:

Consider, maybe, not leading with that. It could, as you are wondering, come across not the way you intend (I think you intend "helpful" and "wanting to fix things"; it could come across as "I have no time to listen to you, and want to get right to the fixing part")

It could have a good place in the interaction after a long time of really, actively listening to her.

...

Other "validating questions"/"validating phrases", besides "tell me more", could be:

"I'm listening... what else is going on?"

"yes... yeah... uh huh" (again, tone/body language of warmth, interest)

"that makes a lot of sense"

"I'd love to hear more"

"how did you feel about that"

"oh wow... uh huh"

"that makes sense that you feel that way"

...

Just my 2 cents -- I'd probably stay away from the "Why do you... why did you... " starts to questions, and I'd try to save any "how can we fix this" to after listening to her and how she feels.

I know for me, if I tell my DH something like "I've just been feeling overwhelmed thinking of our friend who had a stroke" and he leads with "How about you send him a card", I get angry because I feel like he isn't picking up on how I don't need any ideas of what to do, what I want is someone empathetic to see me and how I'm feeling in that moment.

Really glad you are here posting and figuring stuff out.

Thank you… I really appreciate your input and your ideas.

If you don’t mind me asking, what does DH mean, other than designated hitter? :-)

I get a sense that I was trying too hard to offer ideas and suggestions, and it came across as either needy, condescending, or just plain annoying.

Is there anything I could do or say to help undo that sentiment, if I annoyed her or make her feel uncomfortable?

[kells76]

I don't mind one bit!

If you don’t mind me asking, what does DH mean, other than designated hitter? :-)

"dear husband". It's an acronym that gets some use across the boards. Sometimes you may see "DS" or "DD" for dear son/dear daughter as well. I don't see "DW" a lot and will refrain from commenting there 

I get a sense that I was trying too hard to offer ideas and suggestions, and it came across as either needy, condescending, or just plain annoying.

That's a great insight to have. Offering ideas and suggestions can sometimes communicate the exact opposite of what we intend. I suspect your intent with offering solutions could be:

"I care so much about you, I don't want you to be in pain or discomfort, I want to make it go away for you so you will have peace, doing X will fix things"

Unfortunately, the act of offering those ideas/solutions can communicate:

"I care so little about you, I don't want to hear about your pain or discomfort, I want to make your feelings go away, doing X will fix things"

Helping a partner feel heard and be heard first makes a huge difference.

It can be uncomfortable to sit with their uncomfortable, painful feelings, though.

Maybe in another thread, it could be useful to dig in to "hmmm... I wonder why my immediate reaction is to try to solve things for other people... where could that have come from"

...

Is there anything I could do or say to help undo that sentiment, if I annoyed her or make her feel uncomfortable?

I think OR, FF, and I are all pointing to the same thing from our different angles:

while there are no "magic words", there can be (I almost hesitate to say it) "magic attitudes" to bring to these interactions. Where the focus isn't on "OK, now is the time when I say "I hear what you are saying" in a stilted manner, because someone told me to say that"... the focus is on an inner stance of "I am ready to listen openly and without judgment to what my significant other has to communicate, and I am ready to do so warmly and with validation, being genuinely interested in whatever s/he feels and shares, and having empathy for how s/he could feel that way in that circumstance"

Hope that helps, and I'm sure OR and FF will be along again too!

-kells76

[Mr. Kelly]

I don't mind one bit!

"dear husband". It's an acronym that gets some use across the boards. Sometimes you may see "DS" or "DD" for dear son/dear daughter as well. I don't see "DW" a lot and will refrain from commenting there  

That's a great insight to have. Offering ideas and suggestions can sometimes communicate the exact opposite of what we intend. I suspect your intent with offering solutions could be:

"I care so much about you, I don't want you to be in pain or discomfort, I want to make it go away for you so you will have peace, doing X will fix things"

Unfortunately, the act of offering those ideas/solutions can communicate:

"I care so little about you, I don't want to hear about your pain or discomfort, I want to make your feelings go away, doing X will fix things"

Helping a partner feel heard and be heard first makes a huge difference.

It can be uncomfortable to sit with their uncomfortable, painful feelings, though.

Maybe in another thread, it could be useful to dig in to "hmmm... I wonder why my immediate reaction is to try to solve things for other people... where could that have come from"

...

I think OR, FF, and I are all pointing to the same thing from our different angles:

while there are no "magic words", there can be (I almost hesitate to say it) "magic attitudes" to bring to these interactions. Where the focus isn't on "OK, now is the time when I say "I hear what you are saying" in a stilted manner, because someone told me to say that"... the focus is on an inner stance of "I am ready to listen openly and without judgment to what my significant other has to communicate, and I am ready to do so warmly and with validation, being genuinely interested in whatever s/he feels and shares, and having empathy for how s/he could feel that way in that circumstance"

Hope that helps, and I'm sure OR and FF will be along again too!

-kells76

All excellent thoughts… Thank you.

However, I know… I know… This is going to feel like I am trying to validate my own perspective… but I think I actually already DO many of those things… Almost each and every time we have gotten together for a talk like this, it’s mostly her that does the talking for the longest time, and I just try to listen, and understand, and validate.

It usually works at those times, until it doesn’t.  I think what happens, is that in day-to-day struggles, I start to feel that the axe might be coming down for some reason, and I start to get overly sensitive to things that happen, and I make choices that I think drive her way… I didn’t send her texts in the morning, for example, the night after she forgot to call me back when she says she would… Maybe she sees those things and are hurt by them.  I guess it’s fruitless to try to figure it out.

I am still a little baffled by what to do or say if there is no declaration at the end of our time tomorrow… No clarity, or if she says “I don’t think I can do this anymore, it’s just too hard“. I suspect, if she says those things, it’s more of a pain and suffering, then it is that she doesn’t love me, which she would say she does.

How will I handle that? What would I say after that?

[formflier]

to put this in perspective, at least from my perspective...I hope you have at least 5 walks together in the next 3 weeks and I hope you have EXACTLY ZERO discussion about "declaration of intent"..."status of the relationship"..."where is this headed"..."what are we to each other".

CHILL..enjoy a walk, maybe you only talk about the songbirds and the flowers...FOR THREE WEEKS and 5 walks. 

That would be a MASSIVE victory. 

Then...on week 4..."Hey...it's been fun on these walks, did you see the new steakhouse opened.  My treat this Friday if you are up for it."

Maybe a different analogy.  I suspect her "fun" bank account with you is empty...and the "work/hard conversation" bank account is way over drawn and collection letters have been sent out.

Only make deposits in the "fun" account for a while.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

to put this in perspective, at least from my perspective...I hope you have at least 5 walks together in the next 3 weeks and I hope you have EXACTLY ZERO discussion about "declaration of intent"..."status of the relationship"..."where is this headed"..."what are we to each other".

CHILL..enjoy a walk, maybe you only talk about the songbirds and the flowers...FOR THREE WEEKS and 5 walks. 

That would be a MASSIVE victory. 

Then...on week 4..."Hey...it's been fun on these walks, did you see the new steakhouse opened.  My treat this Friday if you are up for it."

Maybe a different analogy.  I suspect her "fun" bank account with you is empty...and the "work/hard conversation" bank account is way over drawn and collection letters have been sent out.

Only make deposits in the "fun" account for a while.

Best,

FF

I think you are soo right on this one. However, I suspect she is going to bring stuff up, if I don’t. Would it be appropriate for me to say “can we just enjoy the company for a while and not talk about that stuff?”  Or does that sound too evasive?

Typically, as with most of these relationships, we tend to make up fairly quickly, and end up sleeping together often that same night. Do you know how that goes.

I get the impression that, like me, she looks for little pieces of evidence to convince her that I am up to something not so good… So if I don’t have her over in my bed within the first couple of times out, I suspect she’s probably going to start splitting again… and find something to complain about and drive herself away, because she will start thinking that I am up to something.

I remember after one of the first major splits, I told her we should just take things slowly, and she seemed to be on board with that, and gave her some comfort.

[formflier]

I think you are soo right on this one. However, I suspect she is going to bring stuff up, if I don’t. Would it be appropriate for me to say “can we just enjoy the company for a while and not talk about that stuff?”  Or does that sound too evasive?
 

No...don't say/suggest that.

It's not evasive...it sounds INVALIDATING and CONTROLLING to me and likely to her.

If she wants to talk about your relationship, the moon, "status"...don't try to control her.

LISTEN...don't correct...don't direct.  Listen.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I remember after one of the first major splits, I told her we should just take things slowly, and she seemed to be on board with that, and gave her some comfort.

This is like "playing the lottery".  Seriously.  Or maybe a slot machine.

For whatever reason on that particular day...whatever you said worked.  Then that gets you in the spiral of over thinking that "if I just say the right thing" or if I say it 1 minute and 7 seconds faster than she says it she will realize we are right for each other and...

My gut says that on that particular day if you had said "let's take things fast"...it would have went well. 

IT'S MORE ABOUT HER EMOTIONS and LESS ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY.

Even if you disagree with me about that last part..consider the impact of that being true.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

I completely agree with you. I think everything that has happened in the last few weeks, and everything that will happen in the next few weeks is entirely about her emotions. That’s the dangerous part of it, because her emotions bounce all over the place.  She is so profoundly dysregulated.  As you can tell, I bounce into that roulette wheel quite often myself.

Sometimes the roulette wheel lands on a black number, sometimes on a white. Almost doesn’t matter who’s spinning or how fast it is spun.

[formflier]

That’s the dangerous part of it, because her emotions bounce all over the place. 

And your job is to stay in the middle.  Chill.  Don't try to convince her not to bounce...don't remind her that yesterday she had swung the other way...

After a while she will begin to "know" on a very fundamental level that you are "steady" and "safe" and she will start to swing less and less.

Listen..relax...chill..

You've got this. 

Best,

FF

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