Can we talk about "Default Mode?" Reflections of therapy

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey guys!

So I hope the title of this is not too dull that so many will pass this thread by.  For those of us that may have some degree of trouble remaining present and grounded, I think this is a worthwhile topic.  For those who do not have trouble, because they spent time working at being present and grounded, please contribute!

So I am making an effort to share the benefits of my new trauma focused therapy with all.  One of the things he made emphasis of is that my mind seems to switch often into default mode.  Now I am still digesting exactly what he meant by this, and while I partly get it, part of me has more to digest.

Part of the issue is that this is a new term for me completely so I am hoping someone else has heard of this?

Ok, well if not, here is the wiki excerpt:

EditWatch this page

Default mode network

fMRI scan showing regions of the default mode network

Default mode network connectivity. This image shows main regions of the default mode network (yellow) and connectivity between the regions color-coded by structural traversing direction (xyz -> rgb).[1][2]In neuroscience, the default mode network (DMN), (also default network, or default state network), is a network of interacting brain regions known to have activity highly correlated with each other and distinct from other networks in the brain.[3] The default mode network is most commonly shown to be active when a person is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest, such as during daydreaming and mind-wandering, but it is also active when the individual is thinking about others, thinking about themselves, remembering the past, and planning for the future.[3] The network activates "by default" when a person is not involved in a task. Though the DMN was originally noticed to be deactivated in certain goal-oriented tasks and is sometimes referred to as the task-negative network,[4] it can be active in other goal-oriented tasks such as social working memory or autobiographical tasks.[5] The DMN has been shown to be negatively correlated with other networks in the brain such as attention networks.[6] Evidence has pointed to disruptions in the DMN with people with Alzheimer’s and autism spectrum disorder.[3]

So, put really simply... .

Much of what I am experiencing by way of what I label as dissociation is my brains ease at slipping into default mode.  Uh, tbh, sounds like he said I am simply a daydreamer, !

I am hoping we can chat about this more here, so I can learn about it together.  I am having a hard time connecting the info I am googling on it.  It seems both simple and complicated.

I have discussed a bit of this with other people.  This really is not so simply described as daydreaming even tho I jest such.  It is debilitating me.  It stops me from getting to work.  It is 2:30 and I have been in my car for hours unable to get out of this default mode to engage in my life.  This happens often!

Help!

[Lifewriter16]

I've never heard of this, Sunfl0wer, but it sounds really interesting.

I'm a dissociating aspie! Or more precisely, I used to cope with life most of the time by mentally retreating to a cloud in the heavens where I'd sit whilst life went on. I wasn't really here for many years and even now there are times when I have to shake myself to get myself back in the planet. And I've since discovered that I've got asperger syndrome, so I'll be interested to find out what it means that the default mode network is disrupted in autism spectrum disorders.

What did your therapist have to say about the default mode network?

Lifewriter x

[eeks]

So, put really simply... .

Much of what I am experiencing by way of what I label as dissociation is my brains ease at slipping into default mode.  Uh, tbh, sounds like he said I am simply a daydreamer, !

Hi Sunfl0wer,

I have not heard of the default mode network.  It sounds like more than daydreaming to me.  Maybe what your therapist was saying is that everybody has this mechanism in their brain when they are inwardly focused (not outward, on a task, like it says in the excerpt) but that your brain switches to default mode much more easily than others.  You could still be using that as a psychological defense against trauma, to "tune out" certain stimuli, but it's not just daydreaming.

I'd be interested to know more about what your therapist said, as well.  It's hard to comment in more detail when we don't know what observations/symptoms in you he is basing this conclusion on. 

eeks

[Sunfl0wer]

Ugh! After reading through most of this:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maria_Densmore/publication/44694078_Switching_between_executive_and_default_mode_networks_in_posttraumatic_stress_disorder_Alterations_in_functional_connectivity/links/004635297a7b9d9644000000.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Scroll down to conclusion:

More research needed, is essentially what it amounts to! Lol!

Lifewriter,

Yes, I pretty much spent my childhood in what I call an environmentally induced state of autism.  I am not on the ASD spectrum.  I simply did not speak, was extremely withdrawn and anxious, and just forced to isolate and spent so much time in my head.  I generally relate well to those on the spectrum.

Thanks eeks,

It is pretty severe, I am stuck for hours at a time.  Part of me wonders why I don't just force myself out of it and use a behavioral approach on myself. 

My mind feels almost addicted to retreating. 

Lol! I am sitting here in my car right now!  Not wanting to simply drive home!  There is not really anything in particular to avoid when I get there.  Maybe some dishes and laundry.  Nothing scary enough to paralyze me to not get there! Wth?

[heartandwhole]

Hi Sunflower,

I have heard of this, but I'm not sure I understand it completely, either. I have an audiobook by Kelly McGonigal, PhD, in which she touches on this subject. I did some googling using her name and found some info about it here. In that article she is comparing meditators and non-meditators, but there is information about how the DMN works.

I also found a recent study relating to PTSD/trauma and how that influences the DMN (below). The conclusions are pretty interesting. I assume that there is a lot more to learn about his subject!

Altered functional connectivity in the brain default-mode network of earthquake survivors persists after 2 years despite recovery from anxiety symptoms.

Although acute impact of traumatic experiences on brain function in disaster survivors is similar to that observed in post-traumatic stress disorders (PTSD), little is known about the long-term impact of this experience. We have used structural and functional magnetic resonance imaging to investigate resting-state functional connectivity and gray and white matter (WM) changes occurring in the brains of healthy Wenchuan earthquake survivors both 3 weeks and 2 years after the disaster. Results show that while functional connectivity changes 3 weeks after the disaster involved both frontal–limbic–striatal and default-mode networks (DMN), at the 2-year follow-up only changes in the latter persisted, despite complete recovery from high initial levels of anxiety. No gray or WM volume changes were found at either time point. Taken together, our findings provide important new evidence that while altered functional connectivity in the frontal–limbic–striatal network may underlie the post-trauma anxiety experienced by survivors, parallel changes in the DMN persist despite the apparent absence of anxiety symptoms. This suggests that long-term changes occur in neural networks involved in core aspects of self-processing, cognitive and emotional functioning in disaster survivors which are independent of anxiety symptoms and which may also confer increased risk of subsequent development of PTSD. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2015 APA, all rights reserved) (journal abstract)

I am of course not a psychologist or therapist, but it sounds to me like you are dissociating a lot. Which we all do from time to time, but people who have experienced trauma can do much more often. Have you and your therapist discussed that, too, and how it might be intertwined with the DMN?

heartandwhole

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

I simply did not speak, was extremely withdrawn and anxious, and just forced to isolate and spent so much time in my head.  

That sounds very much like me. What a miserable and isolated existence I had. What caused this state of affairs for you?

I had one particular boyfriend who helped me learn to be more present. Every time he saw me drifting away, he would shake my leg and say: "Stay with me". Looking back, how sweet was that?

I still resort to sitting on a cloud when things get emotionally difficult and I literally shake my head to get myself to come back. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. I'm sitting on a cloud as I'm typing this for you, it's emotionally uncomfortable. It's often emotionally tinged thought processes that make me resort to disappearing now, like if I'm not involved in a conversation that's happening around me and I'm feeling left out or stupid because I don't know what they are talking about and I'm feeling stupid or self-conscious. I did it quite a bit with my BPDxbf because he made me quite anxious and I think I'd wanted to get away for a long time but I felt guilty about actually leaving him because I'd told him I loved him and had said I'd never leave him. So much for that lack of self knowledge.

A few questions for you:

What circumstances are prevailing when you are able to stay present? What are you thinking, doing, who are you with? Do you notice any patterns?

Love

Lifewriter x

PS. It's ironic that meditation is supposed to increase DMN activity. Perhaps it's not such a good idea for someone like me to take up meditation. I might disappear entirely.  

[heartandwhole]

PS. It's ironic that meditation is supposed to increase DMN activity. Perhaps it's not such a good idea for someone like me to take up meditation. I might disappear entirely.  

Hi Lifewriter,

Are you referring to the link provided above about meditators vs. non-meditators? Hmmm, I came to a different understanding; that is, that meditation helps people attend to feelings and states more directly by uncoupling the "story" that is constantly running (the DMN) in the background.

"They were very interested in whether there’s some other way to have a sense of awareness, including awareness of the self, that is not based on the narrative inside our head, the conceptual self, the stories. In other words, an experiential self that is based on the awareness of the constantly changing feelings, thoughts, and things going on in our environment–not based on the stories that we have in and that we cling to.

And they found that this is the case, but only in people who have trained in meditation…"

"... .when you bring in people who don’t meditate and you tell them what to do—such as, pay attention to your body, pay attention to your environment, be in the present moment–they can’t do it no matter how well you describe what that internal process would be like.

In part that’s because in most of our brains there is an automatic coupling between the experiential system–what’s happening in my body, what’s happening in the environment–and the evaluation system, the default mode, so that as soon as we turn our attention to something the inner commentary starts.



It turns out that when you practice, this neural coupling goes away. Thus you can activate the experiential system without automatically bringing online the inner commentary, the judging, the evaluation. And this is essentially what mindfulness practice is training us to do."



This is just one study of course. And it seems that these were very experienced meditators. Interesting stuff!

heartandwhole

[Lifewriter16]

Hi heartandwhole.

Are you referring to the link provided above about meditators vs. non-meditators? Hmmm, I came to a different understanding; that is, that meditation helps people attend to feelings and states more directly by uncoupling the "story" that is constantly running (the DMN) in the background.

No, it was something I read on wikipedia and now I've read your posts and referred back to it, I see I misunderstood what it was saying. I'm relieved, because I've been trying to learn meditation hoping it would help me. I was actually trying to find out what they think is disrupted in autism spectrum disorders. It looks like it's connections within the DMN but I'm wondering how this relates to a tendency to dissociate or space out?

Lifewriter x

[Sunfl0wer]

He also mentioned the need for me to improve my dual attention.

I am wondering if where we go during DMN and how easily we get there and back and remain present is what is important.  Maybe EMDR helps change where we go during DMN by removing the trauma as being one place to go?

I don't ever really feel like I am ruminating on trauma.  Well, not childhood trauma.  Maybe ruminations the past year on my break up count?  I mean, a lot of my ruminations on him/our relationship then brought forth FOO ruminations.

I just googled that and came up with this long winded excerpt (feel free to skip):

Why should dual focus contribute to trauma treatment’s effectiveness and/or efficiency? The prevailing theory (van den Hout & Engelhard, 2012) is that the distraction, plus concentrating on the trauma memory, provides a certain optimal total cognitive load that taxes working memory. Working memory is like the brain’s RAM chip: it determines how much we can concentrate on, retain in awareness, in a given moment. According to the working memory account, when a trauma memory is accessed and activated, and then working memory is overloaded via distractors, the quality and emotional intensity of the trauma memory deteriorates, resulting in a less distressing memory.

I’m not convinced. Even though the results of numerous studies are consistent with the working memory account, that account is inconsistent with clinical observation of actual EMDR or PC sessions, as well as with what clients say about their experiences (Greenwald, 2012). The working memory account would presumably predict a gradual desensitization of the trauma memory, but many clients do not progress through the memory work in that particular way. Instead, we often see precipitous changes, typically following some emotional working-through or the achievement of a key insight.

I propose what I call the mindfulness account. Even if a therapy client working through a trauma memory does not become overwhelmed, it may take a lot of effort to avoid that, and that effort can slow the work down. However, by concentrating on something else (e.g., the therapist’s moving fingers in EMDR, or the therapist’s counting aloud in PC) at the same time as the trauma memory, the client is no longer only inside the memory, but also outside it concentrating on the distractor. This enables the client to be an observer of the self and of the memory while also engaging with the memory. This mindfulness effect frees the client from getting overwhelmed or bogged down, facilitating the mind’s ability to proceed with the desensitization, emotional working through, insight-making, or whatever is needed to heal from the memory.

Whereas both the working memory account and the mindfulness account are similarly supported by the same body of research documenting the therapeutic benefit of dual focus, there are key differences between them. First of all, the working memory account would predict a gradual reduction of memory-related distress over the course of the trauma resolution session, as if the memory were being desensitized, and this is inconsistent with much (though not all) clinical observation and client self-report. The mindfulness account, on the other hand, does not specify a particular pathway to healing, and thus is consistent with whatever mental means a given client may use to achieve resolution of the memory. The second difference is that in the working memory account, the over-taxing of working memory is itself the mechanism of effect, or the healing element, whereas in the mindfulness account, the mindfulness effect is facilitative of other mechanisms or healing elements.

The mechanism by which dual focus yields therapeutic effect remains to be determined. Regardless, dual focus does contribute to treatment effect, and probably adds efficiency to trauma resolution work - See more at: www.childtrauma.com/blog/dual-focus/#sthash.XLwrRfYA.dpuf

[Sunfl0wer]

heartandwhole:

You provided some interesting info indeed!

Unfortunately, my mind is not in optimal processing mode atm.  (I made that mode up right now   )

I did get through some of it though.

My last therapist told me whenever I feel stuck/frozen in my mind feeling like the next task is unbearable, to MOVE!  I can now see why this would be good advice.  If I move, engage my body, it would have to pull me out of DMN right?  (Unless I'm severely dissociated in a flashback state, other than that though.)

The idea of meditation bringing forth changes of DMN is interesting!  I imagine that even if we cannot produce changes significant enough like well trained meditators, that there is likely non detected changes occurring in that direction with regular meditation.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

I simply did not speak, was extremely withdrawn and anxious, and just forced to isolate and spent so much time in my head.  

That sounds very much like me. What a miserable and isolated existence I had. What caused this state of affairs for you?

I believe I was abused from infancy.  My biomom had schizophrenia and I was taken from her very early after a small injury.  I then was abused in foster care, raised by a family of uBPD, uNPD and ASPD persons.  I am sorry Lifewriter, yes, this also felt so miserable to me.  :'(

I had one particular boyfriend who helped me learn to be more present. Every time he saw me drifting away, he would shake my leg and say: "Stay with me". Looking back, how sweet was that?

I still resort to sitting on a cloud when things get emotionally difficult and I literally shake my head to get myself to come back. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. I'm sitting on a cloud as I'm typing this for you, it's emotionally uncomfortable. It's often emotionally tinged thought processes that make me resort to disappearing now, like if I'm not involved in a conversation that's happening around me and I'm feeling left out or stupid because I don't know what they are talking about and I'm feeling stupid or self-conscious. I did it quite a bit with my BPDxbf because he made me quite anxious and I think I'd wanted to get away for a long time but I felt guilty about actually leaving him because I'd told him I loved him and had said I'd never leave him. So much for that lack of self knowledge.

It is always nice for me when I meet people who facilitate my healing in some way. In this, I feel I have been fortunate.

So those thoughts you have of feeling left out and such.  I wonder if learning about DMN is something that can help undo your "go to" place when in DMN, and find a new place to be in your mind, by default.

A few questions for you:

What circumstances are prevailing when you are able to stay present? What are you thinking, doing, who are you with? Do you notice any patterns?

It makes a lot of sense for me to explore these questions.  Yes, I do notice patterns!  I am typically stressed and feeling poorly about myself.  When my environment feels organized, when I know what I am doing and am well scheduled and have a general goal for the day, I can function WAYYYYY better.  If my organization slips, I tune out so so terribly.

An interesting thought popped into my head.  Well, they say that when not in DMN is when you are actively engaged with outside world in some goal oriented way right?  Well, makes complete sense then when I am not feeling goal oriented externally that I get lost inside!

PS. It's ironic that meditation is supposed to increase DMN activity. Perhaps it's not such a good idea for someone like me to take up meditation. I might disappear entirely.  

Lol! I have thought this about myself as well!  I have practiced meditation to the point of incorporating it into all kinds of daily things then just seem soo disconnected, but pleasantly so, .

Sounds like heartandwhole explains the meditation connection though.  

[heartandwhole]

So much to learn about this topic! 

You know, I have heard of people who, in doing yoga or meditation, for example, simply end up dissociating. I'm not saying that's bad or good; I just don't think it's the goal of most meditative activities.

I've also heard a lot of people saying that meditation is about getting rid of thoughts, etc. My understanding is that meditation and specifically bodywork is about becoming more present in the now. Experiencing whatever comes to our senses and through our minds without grasping onto it or creating a story about it. And even if a story comes up (because they will): no problem, just return whenever that happens to the breath or bodily sensations, or mantra, or whatever helps one focus on the here and now. Thoughts are not the problem; holding on to them and weaving (and then believing) a painful story is what causes suffering, in my view.

My layman's idea of dissociation—in relation to a trauma response—is that it is a coping mechanism we used to protect ourselves from the harm and pain that we were ill-equipped to handle at the time. I imagine that just like the other coping strategies that we talk about on the forum and that hang around long after we need them, dissociation could also be one of those habitual retreats, no?

It's interesting to learn from you, Sunflower and Lifewriter, that this state of "up on the cloud" (which I might be conflating with trauma related dissociation) is not a pleasant state to be in. I had assumed that it would feel like some kind of dreamy relief... .?

I don't know enough about this subject, but since going to therapy after breakup with pwBPD, I have been actively working on learning to feel my feelings and remaining present without falling into default/story mode. Let's just say that some days I'm more successful than others 

heartandwhole

[Lifewriter16]

Sunfl0wer, heartandwhole... .

It's all interesting stuff. However, I want to honour the children we were, the people who had such traumatic, sad or miserable lives that they felt they had to resort to dissociating.

Here's to us (and the many others like us)!


   


Love Lifewriter

[purekalm]

Sunfl0wer,

Ahhh!   That moment when you write a detailed thought out post and the internet disconnects and you lose it all, right when you finish it! Lol Oh well. =)

So, I find this interesting because before I even knew it had any names I called it “running on auto” and was teased about it. I have always ‘spaced’ in some way, even my mom telling me that as a young child she seen me do it all the time. 

So, I always knew that I did it, but never talked about it until I was in my early twenties because it was jut another thing to make me weird. When I saw a therapist for two years about 6 years ago now, she made a couple simple statements that helped me out and I never forgot.

I told her one day that I had trouble paying attention, and often drifted off, but nothing on the serious side, just kind of off hand and she said, “So, you have trouble staying present?” Just like that and I felt like I was slapped and enlightened all at once. Lol

The other thing she mentioned is that I can start helping myself by paying attention to the physical signs when I start to drift, get angry or depressed to help lessen the blow. Now, I have relied on God and his strength, because I am so weak and I wouldn’t have made it this far otherwise. I don’t care who knows it or thinks ill of me because of it, and I’m aware everyone doesn’t believe so that’s totally fine. This is part of my journey. =)

So, here’s what I noticed in no particular order about myself.

1. Auto, in which I am not aware of my surroundings and I have no idea where I am and it’s an all of a sudden thing that freaks me out when I ‘return’ to myself. I don’t know where I am but I function like I’m there and unless there was something up with my eyes, no one would have noticed. I have been known to be driving, moving in and out traffic while on the highway or in the city, carrying on conversations, or any other thing. I have hardly remembered anything from these slots of time, and it scared and frustrated me.

2. In between. This is the weirdest one for me because I’m aware that I’m not there, although I don’t know where I am, but I’m also aware of myself presently and not able to connect the two. It’s disconcerting to say that least. It feels so odd, like that place in between sleep, where you are aware of a dream or sleep coming on and still aware of your body lying on the bed, in neither place just yet, but in both. This is the hardest one to function in, because it’s almost like I don’t exist, yet I do, it’s hard to explain.

3. Semi, because in this state I am present yet not fully because there is a part or parts of my mind that is off ‘spacin’. This also feels weird, just not as much so as the other two. This is when I find it hard to concentrate, soak things in, focus on a task, and feel distracted.

I haven’t felt the debilitating flashback dissociating because as far as I know I remember all the abuse that I’ve went through my entire life. My earliest memory is of five years old, so if there is anything I’ve repressed I assume it would be before that.

I’m not the best at explaining, so I’ll use what I did to break free of most of it, besides my prayers. =) Also, it wouldn’t have taken so long if I wasn’t so hard on myself beating myself up every time I failed or couldn’t get it right.

I love to read and it was an escape from chaos when I was younger. When I read I can and did block everything out but the story, seeing it more than reading it. I realized I couldn’t and didn’t want to keep doing that. I had to admit at first that I didn’t always try to stop myself from feeling those ways, because it was better than being lucid and dealing with the harsh reality of my life and past. I got angry and frustrated at my lack of memory for these events and I just didn’t want to do it anymore.

I started to read, and then purposely focus on something outside of the story, like a voice, or my phone, someone coming to the door, having to relieve myself. Lol Slowly, I started to be able to be in my story, but be aware of the world around me, and it translated to other parts of my life as well. It definitely wasn’t easy, and to be honest, I didn’t realize that I was actually causing a lot of it to happen. Initially, all I could muster was literally shaking my head or when I felt the sleight of drift I’d say “no” quietly to myself outloud and that would help.

I’m sorry if this is gibberish and doesn’t help anyone, but this has been my experience. It still happens, like I guess it always did, but usually not to the severe degree that it used to  when I wasn’t trying to stay present. I can literally think myself into one of them as well, but I can catch myself a little easier on those. =)

Thanks for letting me share, and for sharing your stories as well. It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one, yet, it sucks to know others suffer as well! =(

Sincerely,

Purekalm