NPD is wanting a reconciliation after several years of NC

[Pilpel]

I have been no contact for several years with an NPD SIL.  She has made a few attempts to reach out and reconcile.  But I don't trust her apologies, and I haven't responded.  A couple years ago, after making a second attempt to get me to reconcile, I know that she acted out several times toward me. Leaving pissy texts and voice mails for my husband.  And there was no "Oh, sorry, I understand that this is the sort of treatment you went contact with me over." 

The previous Christmas, they left a gift for the family at my parents' house.  I live next door to my parents.  Nothing big, but I thought it was a nice gesture.  This past year, I thought I would leave something for them, and for SIL's parents who were visiting from out of country.  This led to a surprise visit from SIL and her mom, to thank me for the gifts.  I didn't really want a visit, but I was warm and friendly.  And she seemed warm and friendly, too.  Though later, when my husband got home, he shared a weird text she sent him.  It sounds like she initially thought that I only got a gift for her parents, and not for her, and she sent an uppity text about how she prohibited me from communicating with her family.  Her family knows she has a problem.  I think they have gone through periods of low to no contact with her over her drama.  Anyhow, in being no contact, I don't have hostile feelings toward her.  I have no intention to act vindictive if I see her.  I just want my peace. 

Seeing how she had initially texted my husband confirmed for me that she hadn't really changed all that much.  but when she discovered that I had given her family a gift, I think she re-interpreted the gesture.  Anyhow this led to her emailing, saying that she was grateful for the gift and wanted us all to get together this month.  But it was kind of vague whether she expected me or my husband to respond.  Now I feel like I've been pushed into giving a response about reconciliation. 

Another odd aspect of this is that I think that my husband, in trying to be a good guy and show love for evil, has been unwittingly giving her the wrong idea that he's "on her side".  He doesn't see it.  But from what I've seen of her, she treats people around her like puppets that she can project onto.  So she projects her own vindictive and self-centered motivations onto me.  My husband is the nice guy who kindness is a clear indication that he almost sees things the way she does.  I think SIL, my brother, as well as other (flying monkey) family are under the impression that I'm just being stubborn in not reconciling.  And I don't think they realize that I discussed everything with my husband and kids when I went no contact, and made sure that it would not be disruptive to them. 

I saw my other brother and his girlfriend a few days ago.  And they didn't say anything, but I got a weird vibe from them.  Like they were trying to fish out why I hadn't responded yet to SIL so that they could tell my SIL that I wasn't up to much, and therefore didn't have an excuse to write back ASAP.  I told this to my husband the next morning, and weirdly the NPD SIL emailed a few hours later in the morning, because my husband hadn't responded to her yet and she didn't want to see him at the next gathering.  And it was a weird feeling of "wow, I think I was right, that the other family members are unwittingly acting like flying monkeys to gather information for her." 

Anyhow, I just wanted to share this, because I've been at peace for the last several years of being no contact.  But I'm really disappointed by how rattled I am by all of this now.  I do really want a genuine reconciliation.  But I don't think that a "genuine" reconciliation is possible.  What I want is for her to stop projecting such bad intentions on me, and if she feels the need to text or call with some sort of condescending or negative assumptions about me and not act out when she gets triggered.  But I don't think she has any awareness of just how weird, hostile, and objectifying her triggered responses toward me are.  It just seems so normal to her.  And I have all these years of bad experiences with her, where I've seen such ugly behavior toward me, my elderly mom, and others.   If I could see a complete change and softness of her heart, I could look past all of that. But without seeing a complete change of heart, just words of apology would just be empty words.  It would just be a relationship that is fake and negotiated and would bring me no joy. 
I've tried several times to sit and write a response.  But my thoughts go in so many directions.  And I start writing several pages, and my thoughts get scattered in trying to explain where I am coming from.  And when I read over it, and I try to imagine SIL and brother reading what I wrote, I imagine them just ignoring everything I write and wondering why I won't just get charm'ed. I imagine her just taking any descriptions I have of bad treatment from her and projecting it back on to me.  The ten plus years that we were in contact I feel like I expended so much energy trying to make her happy or trying to set boundaries or try to reason with her.  I was stressed before events that we were going to be together.  I felt like a deer in the headlights when I was interacting with her.  And I was stressed after seeing, never knowing if I'd get an angry email over something she was upset about that would suck up a week of energy trying to sort out.  And just thinking of being in contact with her again, it just brings up all those feelings up again.

Also, I am considering partial contact.  Since our kids are getting older.  Honestly I'm okay being left out of things.  Like if I never went to another birthday party or holiday gathering, I'm that odd person that wouldn't care that much.  But I would like to be able to go to their kids' graduations, etc. 

But I am concerned that by "giving an inch" she would eventually needle her way into taking a mile.  So if anyone has any experience with that, please let me know.  Thanks for reading.  I know, I'm just venting. 
 

[kells76]

Hi Pilpel,

The feeling I get about your situation is that everyone's actions are going to be a lot more important than words here. Her actions will say a lot more about if she wants to interact with you (and how) than what she does or doesn't say, and your actions towards her will communicate much more than any perfectly-worded message.

Actions are what "get through" to a pwPD, not explanations, letters, emails, texts, statements, conversations, arguments, etc.

She left a gift for the family; I think you were right to see it as a nice gesture. You decided you could safely try leaving a gift for them, and received a Thank You visit, which was OK -- not a breakthrough and not horrible.

When SIL emailed to say she was grateful for the gift and wanted you all to get together, was that all she said? Was it your "radar" suggesting to you that she may be wanting a big "reconciliation" gettogether?

I'm trying to see why you'd have to reply anything about reconciliation. Sometimes we can overthink stuff. If all she said was "Thanks for the gift, it was nice, I'd love it if we all got together this month"... you don't have to mind-read. You are allowed to respond to what she wrote, and not try to help her out by replying with what she isn't being direct about. "You're welcome, glad you all enjoyed it! We're all booked this month, see you at Easter!"

I think it may take more time and more baby steps before you have enough info to know about where she's coming from. Maybe that's part of why you feel rattled -- "she wants to get together so I have to figure that out now" instead of "she wants what she wants, and I need to observe more actions and behaviors before I'm ready to make decisions".

Maybe feeling rattled and stressed is a sign that you need to take your time here. Often, when pwBPD are involved, there can be this kind of "time pressure" imposed on something that really is more about their anxieties and inner moods than about anything actually being on a deadline. You may be picking up on that. There's no deadline here -- she may feel uncomfortable inside and think "Pilpel's resistance to being a happy family is causing my discomfort, so once I make Pilpel be a happy family with me again, I'll feel better". External causes for her internal emotions.

Anyway, all that to say -- do what you need to do, on your own timeline. She's going to feel whatever she feels, which is more often than not much more about her own inner moods than about anything you could possibly do or say.

You can keep it light and "end on a high note" with interactions. Maybe start building a foundation of small, manageable exchanges, like the gifts. Let the weird stuff go as long as it's just weird (like her text) vs damaging. Steer clear of big explanations for now -- your instincts, when you imagine likely outcomes, seem right on.

Also, if SIL has NPD traits and behaviors, then it may be that regardless of how anyone acts, including your H, she's going to see people not as they are, but as how she wants to see them, and there isn't much that you or H can do to change that. If H is being a kind person and she decides to interpret that as "See, even Pilpel's H is on my team"... that's the disorder happening. As long as you and H understand that, then I hope that frees both of you up to let that go: "There she goes again... not my circus, not my monkeys".

...

Are you and your H doing OK, marriage-wise? Does he understand where you're coming from?

And how have the last few weeks been?

[Pilpel]

Thanks for responding, Kells76.  I didn't want to respond to SIL.  But over a period of several weeks following, she became more aggressive in demanding a response.  And she referenced her attempt to reconcile last year, including some flying monkeys telling her that I had intended to respond, as well as my brother's follow up email last year, where he became very demanding that I respond, and he accused me of being disruptive to the family.  So I had to respond.  Before I finally sent the response, she sent a message to my husband accusing both me and my husband of being disrespectful for not responding faster.  

It took me a long time to formulate a response.  But in the end, I felt like I had said what I wanted to say. Here is part of it:

In (my brother's) email last year, he wrote that you have reached out to me several times but I hadn’t responded.  As I recall, you reached out to me three times.  So I want to explain why I haven’t responded until now.  

You wrote a thoughtful email of apology to me in November of 2021.  I thought for a long time about responding.  But when I sat in front of the computer I couldn’t think of anything to write.  I wasn’t ready to respond.  My life was very peaceful after cutting contact.  It is nice to get an apology, but I never asked for an apology.  I asked that you take responsibility for your own choices.

A few months after this apology, there were several things that happened.  I sent (my brother) a text with a YouTube music video about (current political topic).  And you sent an angry group text, accusing me of sending (my brother) inappropriate images and of not wanting you to be part of the family.

There was another incident when (my brother) asked if the girls could stay over for a few days, and later I discovered that you left a very strange and condescending message to (my husband) as if I had made a demand that the girls stay over and that you needed to set boundaries with me.  I think you talked to (my husband) a day later, and blamed the misunderstanding on one of your girls. But in all these years, I have never given any reason for you to conclude that I would make demands about having your kids over.  

Around that same time you sent out another email wanting to reconcile before your parents were coming to visit.  You said that you still hadn’t told your parents that we were not talking, and that you didn’t want to tell them because you didn’t want them thinking bad of (my husband) or me. You sounded contrite in most of that email.  But saying that you didn’t want to tell your parents because you didn’t want them thinking bad about us, that sounded manipulative.  It sounded like you wanted me to be motivated to reconcile out of fear of what your parents might think of us.  I really like your parents.  But what could you tell them that would make them think bad of me?  And why would I need to worry about what they think of me?

I understand that you were going through a difficult time in 2022, after losing your close friend.  But the way that you were interacting about me during that time was not different than how you’ve interacted with me in the past.  Quick to make negative accusations, quick to condescend, and without considering what it is like for me to repeatedly be at the other end of that.  I did not see that there was any follow up after this where you expressed any awareness that you had falsely accused me, and that this was the same sort of treatment that made me cut contact with you.  If you had said a few worlds to (my husband) to acknowledge that how you responded to me at that time was wrong, that would have meant something.  This is why I asked for you to take responsibility for your choices, and not an apology.  Taking responsibility for your choices in this situation is understanding that when you chose to speak in an unfiltered hostile way, you also accept the that that person that you treat in that way also has a choice to not engage with that.

I hope this clarifies why I didn’t respond to your attempts to reach out to me prior to 2022.  Attempts to reconcile don’t mean a lot, if they are follow by the same negative patterns.  

A year later, I saw the email that you sent to (my husband), after a family wedding. I was initially planning to respond.  There were two things in your email that I debated bringing up.  One was your use of the phrase “prolonged conflict” to describe the past few years.  The other was your appeal that we reconcile for the sake of (my brother) and the kids’ emotions.  I am not unsympathetic to how this affects (my brother) and the kids.  But I see this as part of an underlying pattern of using guilt and obligation to manipulate.  I should be motivated to reconcile out of concern of what your parents would think?  I should be motivated to reconcile out of concern of how this is all making Charles and the kids feel?   We should reconcile because my parents are getting old? When I think of how you have treated me and other people over the years, I have not seen you show that much concern for what other people might think and feel or how old they are getting.  I’m not saying that your attempt to reconcile isn’t genuine.  But if you use any sort of manipulation to persuade me to reconcile,  that’s not convincing.  

Despite these things that I saw as red flags in your email, I was actually feeling somewhat positive about responding.  But the conversation that I had with (my other brother), that you referred to, was what first made me pause.  He offered to facilitate a reconciliation, then he ended the conversation with something to the effect of “you once said you wouldn’t stay no contact forever…”  And this bothered me because it sounded like I should be motivated by obligation to something I said.  So I had to pause and think about this.

I got covid after (my other brother's) visit, and was foggy headed and fatigued for a while. Then a few weeks later, I was driving to the supermarket, and thinking to myself that when I get home I’m going to finally write (SIL) back.  And I was feeling pretty positive about it.  And then I just happened to check my email as I’m walking into the store, and I see (my brother’s) email.  And I was absolutely shocked by the tone, which I found so controlling.

So I want to go over a few points from that email, so that you can understand how it came across to me.

First, (my brother) opens with: “This grudge or feud you are having with (SIL) needs to stop.”  

It stood out to me that you both use conflict terms to describe the past several years: grudge, feud, prolonged conflict.   But when I cut contact with you, I told you that I loved you and would be praying for you. During these 4 1/2 years I have been at peace with you.  And I hoped that you would find peace during this time, too. If you view this period as a time of conflict, then it makes me feel like you are still in conflict.  I haven’t been arguing with you.  I have only been preserving my peace.   For me, it was the years prior to cutting contact that felt like a “prolonged conflict.”  And this should not be news to either of you.  I have plainly told you several times that it has been mostly stressful interacting with you.

I’m not sure if you remember one or two conversations where I told you that I felt objectified at get togethers.  I felt like you regarded me more like a warm body that was obligated to show up and play a role. So I don’t know if you can imagine how it sounds to me when (my brother) writes this:  “This grudge or feud you are having with (SIL) needs to stop….. It’s disruptive to the whole family, we can’t get together for birthdays, holidays, or anything.”  It sounds like “Hurry up and reconcile so you can resume your place as a warm body at family get togethers.”   I don’t find that very loving or motivating at all.

I was also reading this and thinking, “Who does (my brother) think he is to take such a controlling tone with me, to use obligation and guilt on me because your holidays feel disrupted when I’m not there?  And who does he think I am?”  During those years when there was so much tension and drama during our get togethers, when it felt like a prolonged conflict to me, who was speaking up and saying “This is disruptive to the whole family and needs to stop”?  (Brother), you spent a lot of those past get togethers taking naps and withdrawn.  I don’t know if this gives you any sense for what our experience was prior to going no contact.  But after I cut contact, I talked to my kids about my decision.  I wanted to make sure they knew that I loved (SIL).  I didn’t want my decision to affect their ability to spend time with your family.  And I wanted to make sure it wasn’t disruptive to them.  And at that point, in 2019, both of my kids could only think of a handful of times that either of you took time to talk to them.  They enjoy seeing their cousins, but they have never indicated to me that their lives have been disrupted by my cutting contact.  Mom and dad have never talked about it being a problem.  (Second brother) and (his SO) have never indicated that it’s been a problem. I am not even aware that (second brother) and (his SO) have participated in family gatherings since Covid.  

I know that (my son) has gone over to mom and dad’s when you have been visiting, and he told me that he has played games and talked with you.  And it makes me really happy when I hear that he is doing things with you and having a good time.  He wanted to stay home for Christmas last month, so he could spend time with your boys.  And I supported that.  I was really glad that he was able to spend time with your family.  You have always been welcome to invite my family over for get togethers and parties.   I have not prevented you from having get togethers with my family.  And I have always been happy when they have gone to spend time with you.  

Anyhow, I hope you understand why I am only open to partial contact.  If  I were to resume contact because I was being motivated by guilt, obligation, or control, then it wouldn’t feel right.  My life is pretty peaceful right now.  If we are going to resume contact, I need some assurance that you will be adding joy to my life, and not strife.  

SIL responded by thanking me for my "informative" email.  She did not acknowledge at all the manipulation that she and my brother used to try to coerce me into reconciling.  Nor did she acknowledge or show regret for making false accusations against me after trying to supposedly reconcile with me.  She did give an interesting response to what I wrote about my kids not even remembering having more than a handful of conversations with them over the years.  And to be honest, I thought this was evil.  She is so obviously gaslighting, and embellishing how busy she was. At family get togethers, they didn't just ignore my kids, but they both ignored their own kids when they acted out of control or aggressive.  She objectified my kids the same way she objectified me and my family.  My husband and I often had to step away from adult conversations to monitor the children because they both allowed their kids to act very aggressive with my kids and with each other, and they treated my kids as "weak boned cry babies" because they didn't like to get pounded on.  Regardless of how difficult this was, we always made ourself available to watch their kids, and we treated their kids like loved family members.  

Second, thank you for sharing how you felt about our previous interactions with (your kids). I remember how overwhelmed we were with our four children that were born within the span of 7,5 years, and how little energy I had for anyone or anything else when your kids were little. I remember how reserved your children were, especially (your son). I did not know how to connect with them. I remember a couple of times when I brushed out and braided (your daughter's) hair in pretty braids when she was my youngest daughter's age. I remember that our kids always seemed a lot more extraverted, boisterous, rumbunctious, and loud. They grew up exposed to adults and kids in Christian preschools, to Sunday school classmates and teachers, to teachers and classmates at their Christian school, and to a lot of different sports and activities. It was easy for them to connect with kids and adults. I have really enjoyed interacting with your son over the past few years. He has blossomed into a very friendly, kind, and thoughtful young man.

My son was always a friendly, kind, and thoughtful, btw.  She is only noticing it now because I am not there, and her attention has to focus on my son.  Oh, you asked how things are with my husband.  My husband shares my thoughts on this.  Because I mentioned my kids in my email, I did not send it without them agreeing that this was true and they felt comfortable with me sending it.  My husband wanted to write his own response, but I discouraged him from doing this.  I thought he should bring up problems he's having her at the time when he's having the problem, and not a month later.  

[Pilpel]

Just putting this update out there.  I agreed to limited contact with NPD SIL , but felt uncomfortable about it.  Since then, NPD SIL has been trying to get attention from family through emails.  I felt like she was fishing for me to respond.  But I haven't.  I've heard a couple people comment that her behavior seems more amped up over the past month, with a couple people saying they believe she's cracking up.  Well last Saturday, she started sending out weird texts, then emails.  My brother commented only once in her crazy texts that she is having a manic episode. I didn't realize that she was both NPD and bipolar.  I thought he was having her taken to a mental hospital to adjust her meds.  But since her initial strange texts last Saturday, she's been at home, sending out strange incoherent emails attacking other people (thankfully I haven't been targeted), calling people and ranting.

I'm so heartbroken for my brother and their kids.  And I am sorry for her, too. My other brother's girlfriend is a retired nurse and is looking up mental health information.  I wish there were something I could do to help.  But I am also glad to not be involved where I would likely be made a target of her rage. 

[Pook075]

Just putting this update out there.  I agreed to limited contact with NPD SIL , but felt uncomfortable about it.  Since then, NPD SIL has been trying to get attention from family through emails.  I felt like she was fishing for me to respond.  But I haven't.  I've heard a couple people comment that her behavior seems more amped up over the past month, with a couple people saying they believe she's cracking up.  Well last Saturday, she started sending out weird texts, then emails.  My brother commented only once in her crazy texts that she is having a manic episode. I didn't realize that she was both NPD and bipolar.  I thought he was having her taken to a mental hospital to adjust her meds.  But since her initial strange texts last Saturday, she's been at home, sending out strange incoherent emails attacking other people (thankfully I haven't been targeted), calling people and ranting.

I'm so heartbroken for my brother and their kids.  And I am sorry for her, too. My other brother's girlfriend is a retired nurse and is looking up mental health information.  I wish there were something I could do to help.  But I am also glad to not be involved where I would likely be made a target of her rage. 

That's a tough situation that a lot of people here face with family and in-laws (even without mental health problems). 

I don't think the question is whether or not you should forgive her...or if you should resume contact.  The real question, in my mind, is what you actually want.

This isn't about forgiveness or family.  It doesn't matter who was right or wrong.  With a SIL, you can be a part of her life or stay completely away from her and it doesn't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.  It would be nice to be friendly, sure, but only if it serves everyone involved.

You mentioned texts, emails and accusations this week...and feeling relieved that you weren't involved.  That's a pretty big discovery in itself.  Just follow your heart and do what works best for your immediate family (your household only), and that will be the right thing to do.

I hope that helps!

[Pilpel]

Thanks for the response, Pook.  Yeah, I followed my gut in keeping my distance, even after agreeing to limited contact.  And I believe it was the correct choice for me.  Dealing with my SIL took so much of my time and energy in years past.  I let my brother know that he can reach out to me if he needs help with the kids.  His wife has been in the mental hospital a couple times already, that I know of.  So I'm assuming that this is where she is headed.  But right now she is still at home, sending out crazy ranting emails to people in group text.  

Even keeping my distance from her for several years, I have been praying for her to heal, and I have been hopeful that she would genuinely change.  I was just talking to a different brother today.  And we are both concerned that her behavior could just get worse over time.   It's hard for me to imagine how that would look if she got worse.  

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother disliked my father's family. On their part, they were concerned for my father but didn't say much, for his sake. I didn't hear much about their side of things until after my father passed away. They could tell she was disordered.

It's not a competition- I think it's possible to love a spouse, a parent, and a sibling. However, for some reason, I think a BPD wife feels threatened by other females in the family. At least it seemed that way with my BPD mother. I think a part of this is a fear they may make the husband realize that somehing isn't OK with the situation. I don't know all the reasons but my mother was obviously critical about my father's family members, particularly female members.

My father's family didn't go NC with my mother but my mother found ways to avoid them and I think they may have as well.

We (kids) spent time with my father's family during school breaks. BPD mother had difficulty with kids being out of school and home all day. We formed close bonds with his family. Perhaps this was difficult for my mother to see.

What I found odd was her expectations after my father passed away. I assumed that she'd have nothing to do with his family since it appeared she disliked them but when they had a family get together, she was angry that they didn't invite her- even though it was unlikely she'd attend, and she continued to invite them to get togethers she had planned for family. This didn't make sense to me at the time. Why would someone want to be at a get together with people they claim to dislike?

I think in general- these behaviors on the part of your SIL just don't make sense. They aren't logical. She can both- target you, act as if she doesn't like you, and at the same time somehow expect/want a connection with you. On your part- it is your choice about how much to have contact with her. Your SIL's wishes may be difficult to make sense of. It may be better to just not react to her and be cordial but reserved at family occasions.

[Pilpel]

I found out this morning that my brother had to call the police on his NPD wife last night.  I'm assuming that they couldn't do anything.  I think in my state you can't be taken away just for acting erratic.  I think you have to be acting violent or suicidal.  She texted a mutual friend last night with photos of her swollen arms from my brother trying to restrain her.  I hate that my brother and their children are having to go through this.

[Pilpel]

NotWendy,

This has very much been my impression, that NPD SIL targets women in particular.  Your experience with family sounds very similar to mine.  Although, my SIL has treated me or my mom hatefully, but she also treats us like objects that are supposed to fulfill our roles at family get togethers and do things for her. 

[Pilpel]

So just a follow up.  SIL got out of the mental hospital.  Not because she got better or decided to take her meds.  But because they couldn't legally keep her.  She seems more subdued.  But prior to going to the mental hospital she accused both me and my daughter of elder abuse .... because she didn't like how my parents' bathroom looked and she made a dramatic show of cleaning up the bathroom.  

Prior to going to the mental hospital she had invited my family to a school musical that her kids were in.  And we went last weekend.  We had a good time.  Had polite small talk with her and my brother, was introduced to some of their friends.  You would have no idea that she was just accusing me and my daughter of elder abuse.  

We are talking about someone who has treated my mom awful over the years, and we have all still tried to respond to her with forgiveness and kindness.  And she is completely unaware of how much grace and forgiveness has been extended to her.  

[Turkish]

Were or are you at risk for those accusations to be taken seriously by authorities? It certainly threw me for a loop when my mom made accusations against me (and financial abuse was investigated by APS).

[Pilpel]

Turkish, I don’t think there was any risk. She had sent some crazy group texts at one point and was telling my husband that she had the number of a sheriff and that he was liable if he didn’t report me.  But I wasn’t worried.  It was just really odd.  At that point she had a major melt down in front of a group of her closest friends, she had written several nasty and fully crazy yelp reviews.i heard second hand that she may have gotten banned from her Church, and was suspended from her substitute teaching job.  And I searched her name and discovered that this episode left her with a police record.it seems for needlessly calling 911 to harass. 

Actually I just realized now that she started to accuse me of elder abuse just about 4 days after her own run in with the police.  So accusing me of a crime was likely her way of trying to project the shame of her recent police record on to me.