Responding to Projections

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all, an exchange happened between uBPDh and I yesterday that clearly shows that he is projecting.  We were talking about something and he suddenly said I'm indecisive.  I told him, "That's you." and then he told me to give specific examples about him being indecisive (it is known to every single person he knows that he is super indecisive, which I suppose it a classfic BPD thing.  Me, on the other hand, makes decisions very quickly, a lot of times without them going through my brain... .  ).  After I quoted the examples, he said, "Well, you're like that too."  and that was the end of the conversation.

So I guess my question is, since they really belive whatever they're saying when they're projecting, should we call them out on it, or just pretend that's the truth?  For example, if I know he's projecting when he says I'm indecisive, how should I respond?

[Chosen]

Hi all, an exchange happened between uBPDh and I yesterday that clearly shows that he is projecting.  We were talking about something and he suddenly said I'm indecisive.  I told him, "That's you." and then he told me to give specific examples about him being indecisive (it is known to every single person he knows that he is super indecisive, which I suppose it a classfic BPD thing.  Me, on the other hand, makes decisions very quickly, a lot of times without them going through my brain... .  ).  After I quoted the examples, he said, "Well, you're like that too."  and that was the end of the conversation.

So I guess my question is, since they really belive whatever they're saying when they're projecting, should we call them out on it, or just pretend that's the truth?  For example, if I know he's projecting when he says I'm indecisive, how should I respond?

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[zaqsert]

Hi Chosen,

So often when this has come up in the past, when my uBPDw has accused me of being something like this and I ask her for examples, she cannot come up with any.

I used to feel the need to stick up for myself and represent my own reality.  More recently I started to realize that I am very unlikely to change her mind about the perceptions she has, and it is not my place or my job to do so.  I also notice that it is less important to me than it used to be when I see that she perceives me in a different way than I believe I am.  It also helps me to think about the fact that it is probably more about her (projection) than about me.

Depending on how strongly I feel at the time and what mood my wife seems to be in, my response might be anything along the range of:

- Ok. (and let it go)

- I see you feel I'm also indecisive. (validate and let it go)

- I see you feel I'm also indecisive.  Yeah, sometimes I am.  (adding a bit of truth)

- I see you feel I'm also indecisive.  Yeah, I used to be.  And I've been getting better about it.

- I see you feel I'm also indecisive.  Ok, I can see how you might feel that.  I believe I am actually quite decisive.  (to which she will often disagree or just give me an incredulous look)

Of course the lower down on this list, the higher my chances of saying something that will feel invalidating to her.  This could cause things to escalate pretty quickly or, as someone mentioned in another recent thread, it could cause her to dig in their heels even more to hold onto her perception.

Among the options where I let it go, I feel that by letting it go I am not pretending that it is the truth.  Instead, I'm just "walking away" from the statement.  I suppose it's a virtual "no comment".  I certainly did not always feel this way.  I used to feel that if I did not correct the statement then I was implicitly allowing it to be considered true.  That may be the case in her mind, but then again, I have no control over her thoughts and perceptions, even if I were to try.  And you can bet that I used to try, believing I was trying to help her.

Not sure if this helps you, but wanted to share my thoughts in case it does.

[lizzie458]

I agree with zaqsert, my go-to move is to validate and walk away from the statement - basically agree to disagree (without calling attention to and pointing out the fact that I disagree). 

The important thing for me to remember, which I often forget, is that in his reality, I am whatever thing he says I am.  As distorted as it may be, he has a right to his own perception.  And as much as I think I have a corner on the truth, or "reality", I cannot argue logically that my perception is 100% absolute truth... .  because all I can really prove is that it's true to me.  It's difficult to accept this, since years of living with pwBPD tend to make us vacillate between feeling completely insane, and feeling like we are the only ones who are sane.  When my partner is cuckoo for cocoa puffs, it's easy for me to think that because he is "wrong", I am "right" - but that is too simplistic, and what's more it feeds the anxiety and frustration of the pwBPD.

[rosannadanna]

The truth is that nobody is always decisive and nobody is always indecisive.  I like the first two of zaqsert's examples.  You could even add to the first one, "Hmm.  Can you give me some examples?" with a very non-defensive tone.  As Dr. Joy Brown, radio psychologisist, says, "Be curious, not furious."

I look back on my old way of interacting with my dude.  I was pretty entrenched in my codependent, perfectionistic identity and I could match my partner's black and white thinking, especially if I was feeling criticized.  Criticism was a trigger for me to JADE and to do it with a self-righteous air.  I am still learning how to interact with my dude but I had to change myself before the tools actually made sense and felt more natural.

Take care.

[lizzie458]

I was pretty entrenched in my codependent, perfectionistic identity and I could match my partner's black and white thinking, especially if I was feeling criticized.  Criticism was a trigger for me to JADE and to do it with a self-righteous air.

Wonderfully put.  I would just add that if I feel triggered at all, I don't bother asking my dBPDh for examples of how I am xyz because I know I'll just JADE, which will start the downward spiral.  These days I err on the side of caution with that, I don't ask him for examples even when I feel pretty open-minded about it because I don't want there to be temptation to JADE.  I am a very open-minded person who generally takes constructive criticism pretty well, but coming from H it usually takes on a nasty tone - when it's not nasty, it's condescending - and that's guaranteed to get an emotional reaction from me.

[daylily]

Among the options where I let it go, I feel that by letting it go I am not pretending that it is the truth.  Instead, I'm just "walking away" from the statement.  I suppose it's a virtual "no comment".  I certainly did not always feel this way.  I used to feel that if I did not correct the statement then I was implicitly allowing it to be considered true.  That may be the case in her mind, but then again, I have no control over her thoughts and perceptions, even if I were to try.  And you can bet that I used to try, believing I was trying to help her.

Zaqsert, this is so great!  Thanks.  A "virtual no comment"!  I love it.  And you're right.  We have no control over a "normal" person's thoughts and perceptions and probably even less control over a pwBPD's thoughts and perceptions. 

Chosen, I think you and I usually have similar issues, so I'm guessing that the problem you are having is that (1) you care about his thoughts and perceptions about you; and (2) you feel the need to correct "injustices" and things that are incorrect.  I am trying to work on both of these things, but until I can get to the point where I can take into consideration in the moment the unhealthy lens that these thoughts and perceptions are being projected through, I'm just going to try to do a "virtual no comment" and go in the other room and scream into a pillow. 

  Daylily

[zaqsert]

Going off topic from this thread for a moment... .  

... .  go in the other room and scream into a pillow.

Daylily, this made me laugh (in a good way)!  My mom taught us to do this when we were kids.  It helped back then, but I seem to have forgotten about this fairly straightforward technique after 20-30 years.  Maybe it's time I bring this one back into practice.   

[daylily]

My mom used to tell me to do it when I was growing up as well.  I tell my S5 to do this when he's angry.  He doesn't usually do it, but me saying it makes him laugh and then he's not angry anymore!   

  Daylily

[Chosen]

Thanks and this is what I usually do... .  a virtual "no comment"!  Of course I feel whatever he says may not be justified and sometimes I want to JADE.  But I'm getting a lot better.  Another issue today is that he again seems to want to bring up the "your stuff is your stuff you don't share" issue YET AGAIN, but I'm not in the best of moods today so I guess I will just do a virtual no comment again! 

[daylily]

Chosen, isn't it frustrating when the same stuff comes up over and over?  The lack of resolution on anything is one of the most annoying things for me in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I just want to get to the bottom of the issue, get it resolved, and move on.  But of course, the "issue" isn't really the "issue" so even if we did resolve it, the real "issue" would just rear its ugly head somewhere else.   

  Daylily

[shatra]

Hi---

I also feel upset when this happens. I need to remind myself that it is projection.  Yet I find that even when I validate, he will "peck at" me and insist that i agree with him. I'm not actually indecisive, but I will stick with that like the above examples----

Him----You are indecisive

Me---I hear you---you are saying that I am indecisive

Him---No I don't just say it, it is TRUE that you are

Me---Hmmm---I hear you

Him---Well, don't you agree? You are indecisive. Admit it!

Me---(at a loss for words)

   So I feel "accused" of a trait that is actually  his. And I would feel okay validating, but not okay lying and agreeing "Yes I have such and such trait". I am not sure what to do when I get "pressed" into agreeing.

Shatra

[Clearmind]

I used to feel the need to stick up for myself and represent my own reality.  More recently I started to realize that I am very unlikely to change her mind about the perceptions she has, and it is not my place or my job to do so.  I also notice that it is less important to me than it used to be when I see that she perceives me in a different way than I believe I am.  It also helps me to think about the fact that it is probably more about her (projection) than about me.

zaqsert

This is certainly a great way to view projections. We all can project not just those with BPD - and I am reminded of my manager at this point.

However with my BPDpartner and my uBPDf - I once was guilty of taking it very personally rather than seeing the projections for what they were - a way for my BPD loved ones to unload to make themselves feel better. I would react - they would feel better - and now realize that my reacting was actually enabling - I assisted them to feel better rather than them finding a way to self soothe themselves.

It actually had nothing to do with me at all yet I would react - negatively - I was replaying my own childhood script.

I see your point as an important one zaqsert for a number of reasons - while we are in the relationship it can be hard to "extract" ourselves because we tend to be an extension of our BPD loved ones. Work on enmeshment and finding your independence within the relationship/union, work through your childhood script of believing the projections and understand the difference between reacting and responding.

[Surnia]

I think this is a great topic here.   

I was struggling with this in my rs and actually with my boss 

With the latter I am exercising more or less what rosannadanna said:

"Be curious, not furious."

It really needs practice not get into defense mood... .  

[shatra]

Hi

  Even before I read the last 2 posts (re: a person's boss doing the projecting) I had an intuition about this topic relating to bosses. My boss is not a pwBPD, yet some people with BPD are bosses. So if a person has such a boss and they project negatives, then a response of validating would not be enough. If the employee just validates, they might get fired! I would think that they would need to do a bit of disputing or soemthing else, if the "projector" is a boss?

Shatra

[dickL]

uBPDw of 35years has projected on me for decades , i enabled it . she's alwas felt a piece of her heart was missing and assigned me to fix it , trying to project a little common sense in a uBPD is a trigger and then we spiraled into horrid verbal free for alls. i have always been blamed for being a poor partner and caused her to have many promiscous affairs . all ending the same , her being dumped. solely her action but will fight to end refusing ownership . i am learning tools to cope and not get baited , i want to stick but she's been gone a month w/no contact and at her probable return i need to helpful not hurtful. lots of work !

[Chosen]

My boss has some kind of PD... .  or psychological problems... .  she is undergoing treatment and it's very trying for me to have to deal with this both at home and at work!  But then again, practise makes perfect right... .  ?

[lizzie458]

Ugh, yeah one pwPD is enough!  Hehe.  Something I've realized though is that through my recovery and awareness of these issues, I'm starting to see the dysfunction around me much more clearly.  Recently I noticed my new boss is very codependent, although I definitely would not have noticed it before - I would have identified with him!  Kinda interesting to see others' dysfunctional (and some healthy) reactions to them too.

[shatra]

Hi

   I am curious about how one handles their boss pwBPD. It would be condescending to say to some bosses "I understand that you feel upset" or validate and explore their feelings... .  and it could cause job loss if you "agree" with their negative projections of you "Yes, I do have a b and c bad traits." How would one could handle this?

Shatra

[almost789]

I too need more info on how to respond to the projections. I DO know the worst possible way to respond is to JADE. My pwBPD projects his issues on me all the time. My usual response was to take it very personally, make note of what REALLY happened by pointing out all the details to him (not his distorted version). This never ends good. Recently, he turned the tables on me and set up a similar case scenario we had in previous situation, but he flipped the tables and he started doing and saying what I had done previously. Im not sure if this is projection, or an off way of trying to communicate something to me that he doesn't want to address directly. I caught on to what he was doing, what he was trying to make me see. (even though, in my mind it was NOT the same situation, there were similarities.) So, I just said "I see" , " I get it" as in I see what you are saying (validation?) and then I didn't take it personal, realized this was part of his disorder, his projecting. I then tried to move on from the subject. Went much better. So for me one step ahead means not taking it personally and not arguing.

[Surnia]

Yes, it is good to avoid JADE, needs some practice however.

Asking questions to clarify can be helpful too. Or mumbling "I see" and start to move on from the topic. 

SummerT321:

here on board, and feel free to make a first post here: New Members Board