She wants me to quit my job…

[Depression = 72% of members]

Now that my wife is presenting as feeling generally happier (?) after 4 years of raising babies and being dead broke, she wants to go back out to work and also maybe gain some qualifications. I do think such a challenge would be good for her, however her track record for study and work has not been good and involved many courses started and not finished, and jobs which didn’t last long until w fell out with boss/colleagues/went on sick leave. With the study she went to special needs school as a child, and has blamed me before for not helping her enough, despite the fact that I am experienced in special education teaching, and whilst I’d love to help, there is no way I’m doing her assignments for her. Even at age 25 she was kicked off a hairdressing course for poor attendance and commitment, which was annoying because she actually passed the first level (I paid for it) but they would not let her continue to become qualified.

The reason I can’t just say, “Congratulations darling!! Good luck, have a great day!” is because of my work, and also our children. W has always seemed jealous of my abilities and the fact that I get to connect with people. I teach piano two days a week at a prestigious private school. I was head hunted for this role within a couple of months of moving to town. Piano teaching roles at school are very hard to come by because the teachers rarely move on. I also teach at students’ homes after school, and also online, and Saturday morning. My work is not disposable, if I quit, the school would take on a replacement teacher and my private students probably would too. I have said goodbye to several students recently because w needs more help with the kids in the evenings. This is a step in the right direction for me, because D4 starts school next year so ideally I would like to be working more school hours and less out of school hours so I get to see her more.

We have 3 pre-schoolers, the eldest two attend nursery 2.5 and 1.5 days/wk and S1 has never attended or even been looked after by anyone else even my wife’s mother. My wife is talking about how I “may have to quit school” so that I can look after baby while she goes out to work. She is not set on anything particular and is looking at supermarkets, care work (both done before), delivery driver, teaching assistant work in schools/pre-school (may require qualifications and/or full time attendance). She has even looked at work in a funeral parlour, which she’s not sure she could handle, but still says, “you’ll have you quit your job”. I knew better than to argue at this stage.

W knows that ideally we would be earning more money, not less. On average I earn 4-5 times more than her as an hourly rate. If baby did start day care, (whichI don’t think my wife is ready for) that would be an added expense. There is pressure on me to purchase an online childcare course for her. My Mum did this a few years back but due to covid lockdowns etc my wife never ended up going out to placement and never did the home assignments or got a refund or anything and of course Mum never bothered asking about it. She also accessed government funding for an online course which she didn’t pass due to me not wanting to do her home work for her. If w was to do a course she claims she would need my help, which would require us both sitting down together for several hours a day, either whilst paying for additional childcare, or while supervising our preschoolers.

I want to encourage her but I don’t argue when she says it’s hard to fit opportunities around what I do. I have struggled with this myself and found it hard to find additional work. I’ve done my time as a domestic cleaner, which she can’t do due to her bad back. I actually enjoy this job, but at the moment I need to spend my spare moments supporting her emotionally, as well as practically with the children and house work..

I do think a job or course would be good for her confidence and to get out there and meet some different people. I also think it would definitely take the pressure off me, where she wants to talk/text me during breaks and ring me when I’m driving all the time. I don’t know what the answer is. I’ve done well to avoid a row over this, pretty much through my now second nature response of validating her thoughts and feelings, and not openly disagreeing with anything she says.

I just wanted to talk to you guys about it and see if anyone has any thoughts…

[thankful person]

Now that my wife is presenting as feeling generally happier (?) after 4 years of raising babies and being dead broke, she wants to go back out to work and also maybe gain some qualifications. I do think such a challenge would be good for her, however her track record for study and work has not been good and involved many courses started and not finished, and jobs which didn’t last long until w fell out with boss/colleagues/went on sick leave. With the study she went to special needs school as a child, and has blamed me before for not helping her enough, despite the fact that I am experienced in special education teaching, and whilst I’d love to help, there is no way I’m doing her assignments for her. Even at age 25 she was kicked off a hairdressing course for poor attendance and commitment, which was annoying because she actually passed the first level (I paid for it) but they would not let her continue to become qualified.

The reason I can’t just say, “Congratulations darling!! Good luck, have a great day!” is because of my work, and also our children. W has always seemed jealous of my abilities and the fact that I get to connect with people. I teach piano two days a week at a prestigious private school. I was head hunted for this role within a couple of months of moving to town. Piano teaching roles at school are very hard to come by because the teachers rarely move on. I also teach at students’ homes after school, and also online, and Saturday morning. My work is not disposable, if I quit, the school would take on a replacement teacher and my private students probably would too. I have said goodbye to several students recently because w needs more help with the kids in the evenings. This is a step in the right direction for me, because D4 starts school next year so ideally I would like to be working more school hours and less out of school hours so I get to see her more.

We have 3 pre-schoolers, the eldest two attend nursery 2.5 and 1.5 days/wk and S1 has never attended or even been looked after by anyone else even my wife’s mother. My wife is talking about how I “may have to quit school” so that I can look after baby while she goes out to work. She is not set on anything particular and is looking at supermarkets, care work (both done before), delivery driver, teaching assistant work in schools/pre-school (may require qualifications and/or full time attendance). She has even looked at work in a funeral parlour, which she’s not sure she could handle, but still says, “you’ll have you quit your job”. I knew better than to argue at this stage.

W knows that ideally we would be earning more money, not less. On average I earn 4-5 times more than her as an hourly rate. If baby did start day care, (whichI don’t think my wife is ready for) that would be an added expense. There is pressure on me to purchase an online childcare course for her. My Mum did this a few years back but due to covid lockdowns etc my wife never ended up going out to placement and never did the home assignments or got a refund or anything and of course Mum never bothered asking about it. She also accessed government funding for an online course which she didn’t pass due to me not wanting to do her home work for her. If w was to do a course she claims she would need my help, which would require us both sitting down together for several hours a day, either whilst paying for additional childcare, or while supervising our preschoolers.

I want to encourage her but I don’t argue when she says it’s hard to fit opportunities around what I do. I have struggled with this myself and found it hard to find additional work. I’ve done my time as a domestic cleaner, which she can’t do due to her bad back. I actually enjoy this job, but at the moment I need to spend my spare moments supporting her emotionally, as well as practically with the children and house work..

I do think a job or course would be good for her confidence and to get out there and meet some different people. I also think it would definitely take the pressure off me, where she wants to talk/text me during breaks and ring me when I’m driving all the time. I don’t know what the answer is. I’ve done well to avoid a row over this, pretty much through my now second nature response of validating her thoughts and feelings, and not openly disagreeing with anything she says.

I just wanted to talk to you guys about it and see if anyone has any thoughts…

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

My first impression is that this is an issue that you will need a boundary established, so you might want to start constructing your ideas and emotions around that.

What is the history? What does that tell you? What does your household budget dictate, in  reality? And so forth.

[Turkish]

From what you wrote, is this a good summary:

You teaching piano is your career now, enough to provide to stay afloat financially, despite challenges.

She currently doesn't work, and has a poor track record of doing so. Yet...

She wants you to quit (and here my logical mind says, "and how to pay for life?")...

So she can get certified on... something, despite a poor track record. So you take care of the kids more, is that her desire or the validation target? Taking care of the kids holds her back?

Despite these days of remote work and certifications...

[Notwendy]

My thoughts are that this is one of her temporary whims. If you quit your job, you will both be without an income in a short while. She will hyperfocus on this as something she "needs" - in her feelings it is THE solution to her uncomfortable feelings and I hope by now you see the pattern. I think quitting your job would put your family in financial peril. It's not the solution.

There are too many times to count of the times such decisions were made according to BPD mother's whims. She thinks that the one thing she's focused on is what needs to be. She continues to do this even now. As to any form of employment or even volunteer work- she doesn't stay with it for long. It's not due to lack of inteligence- she can do the school/training part. But there's no follow through.

IMHO, this is a set up to have you do the child care. Babies are cute and cuddly. The kids aren't babies anymore and so she's not as interested and now wants to do something else.

When my mother got married- most of her peers were "housewives". She had a friend who embraced the trend for women to enter the workforce- that friend became an accomplished writer. The friend still did her part of parenting and household. So my mother decided she also wanted to be a  "liberated woman" like her friend. But she didn't enter the workforce and she didn't do much of the housework as it is. She assumed the "identity".

IMHO, your wife is looking at "employment" as a new identity. She's not thinking of the practical concern of financial stability and the need for you to have steady employment. Even today my mother doesn't "get" the fact that if she spends all the money in her bank account- the money will be gone. It's impossible to reason with her over that. When it comes to money, she has magical thinking.

But it doesn't matter what others think. What do you think? Do you really buy into your wife's "reasoning" or will you take a stand for the reality - that you quitting your job will put your family in financial trouble?

[kells76]

Hi thankful person,

Interestingly, I'm currently reading through Dr. Xavier Amador's book "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help, which focuses on how to Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner with a person with serious mental illness (the book is designed for communicating with people with schizophrenia) in order to support them getting meaningful treatment.

The section I just read shared an example of Dr. Amador talking with a long-term schizophrenia patient who did not believe or perceive herself to be ill, yet was hospitalized multiple times per year for many years.

He talked through how to find out what she thought the problem was and what her goals were. She did not think that hearing voices or believing that others were conspiring against her were problems. She did think that family members pressuring her to go to the hospital was the problem. Her goal in life was to get a job (in banking/finance) even though for twenty years she had worked maybe a dozen days at most.

He used that information to join with her in agreeing that being hospitalized frequently certainly was an obstacle to her dream of being employed. He asked her why she wanted a job in finance, and she said it was because she didn't want to be dependent on others, and also saw her sister had a job as a stockbroker and was independently wealthy. He was able to agree that having a high paying job would feel respectable and would help her feel independent.

He did finally ask her, gently, "Why do you think you haven't worked very much?" She did not say "because I have schizophrenia and when my bosses have heard me muttering under my breath about them, they fire me". She did say something like "because everyone makes me go to the hospital all the time". The key to his approach is finding out what the other person thinks the problem is, finding out what her goal is, and then finding a way for both to agree that "whether you think you are sick or not, taking your medication regularly would sure get you closer to your goal and would get everyone off your back" -- something where you can "agree to disagree" about whether serious mental illness is at play, but you can agree that "acting as if treatment helped" would get the person closer to the goal.

Anyway, there was more to it than that, so I'd highly recommend picking up a copy. I think you are already trying some of the approaches he discusses -- like trying to steer clear of arguments, convincing, or persuading.

It just really struck me how similar your W's situation is to the section in his book.

Both seem to be unaware of how unrealistic their employment goals are. Yet that does not have to be an obstacle to you understanding her goal, understanding what she thinks the problem is, and then maybe pointing towards some ways that she could meet her goal.

It gets tricky when personal blame is at play, which I think it might be for you but wasn't for Dr. Amador. For example, if your W were asked "why do you think you haven't worked very much lately", she might say "because thankful person doesn't help with the children" or "because thankful person won't quit her job" etc. So it may take some finessing to figure out what exactly your W thinks would help her reach her goal of employment (again -- this isn't saying whether it's realistic or not, just learning what does she think would get her closer), that isn't just falling back into blame.

But if it can work with people with schizophrenia, maybe it can work for you and your W.

Not sure if there is an e-book or pdf or audio book available, but I did pick up my copy at a local used book shop.

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

   Some quick comments - don't do this, unless you want to lose the income that you know you have.  Do setup a boundary with your wife, and together come up with some realistic goals to achieve if your wife is really serious about going in this direction.  Once these goals are made, she may come to the realization that they are too difficult to achieve.


however her track record for study and work has not been good and involved many courses started and not finished, and jobs which didn’t last long until w fell out with boss/colleagues/went on sick leave. With the study she went to special needs school as a child, and has blamed me before for not helping her enough, despite the fact that I am experienced in special education teaching, and whilst I’d love to help, there is no way I’m doing her assignments for her. Even at age 25 she was kicked off a hairdressing course for poor attendance and commitment, which was annoying because she actually passed the first level (I paid for it) but they would not let her continue to become qualified.

Past performance is often indicative of present and future behaviors, unless there is a concerted effort to change herself.  It is possible, but unlikely.  Use these examples of 'boundaries' that should not be crossed.  Encourage your wife to be 'self-sufficient', have 'good attendance' & show good commitment, timely completion of her assignments, and so forth.

Your love of playing piano, and the prestigious part-time job you have at a local school.  Don't give that up, as that is your passion, your self-care, your needed respite for the dynamic that is going on in your home. 


My wife is talking about how I “may have to quit school” so that I can look after baby while she goes out to work. 

From what you have shared about the hairdressing course.  Also, from what you have described, I doubt she could earn more than you, you might want to have a discussion on a family budget, and the best way to optimize it.  Most of the jobs your wife are looking at are minimum wage jobs, if your piano teaching is more than minimum wage, it should be a no-brainer as you clearly articulated...

W knows that ideally we would be earning more money, not less. On average I earn 4-5 times more than her as an hourly rate.

Your wife's feelings of earning more money do not match your facts of earning 4-5 time more per hour.


I want to encourage her [...]

I do think a job or course would be good for her confidence and to get out there and meet some different people. I also think it would definitely take the pressure off me, where she wants to talk/text me during breaks and ring me when I’m driving all the time.

I agree, this would boost your wife's self-esteem/confidence.  She should have something to do.  With COVID, there is a lot more work that can be done at home.  Perhaps explore that area with her.

Perhaps, have your wife visit a career counselor, to see what is 'workable', entertain her ideas (to validate wife's feelings); however, have the counselor validate your facts, that way the blame can be directed towards the counselor, and not you when your wife faces the final answer on this issue.

What are your thoughts on this?

Take care, with self-care.

[Notwendy]

The denial and excuses are an issue. Similarly to the person with schitzophrenia- if they can not see the issue, it's not possible to convince them of it.

I think at some point, one has to be realistic about ability for employment. A person with servere BPD may appear to be cognitively able to do a job, however, emotionally they may not be. One would not expect a 4 year old to hold down a job.

It varies according to the condition. A person with Down's syndrome may have the capacity for certain kinds of employment. They may have some cognitive weaknesses, but I think a large part of being employed is emotional and social capacity, the abilty to take instructions and have working relationships, which many people with Down's syndrome are able to do. In some ways a person with high intelligence and severe BPD is less able to manage employment but they may not see why that is.

I have seen this sort of delusional thinking with my BPD mother. One example is that she kept a car in the driveway and insisted she wanted the car because she might want to drive it. She has not driven a car in decades. Dad drove it and then, she kept it. If we even mentioned that she didn't drive it, she'd respond angrily that "she can drive and would drive it if she wanted to". When she moved to assisted living she let us sell it and we put the money in her bank account but until this time, she kept it, insisting she "might want to drive it".

[thankful person]

Hi all and thanks for the feedback. I think my wife knows I’m not going to quit my job. She likes to test the waters with extreme thinking and it’s like a test as to whether I react. She doesn’t carry out most of the plans she talks about, which I think is really sad. But I have learnt not to take her seriously which is a shame as I would like to.

We have reached a compromise in this situation. I have put down a deposit for the child care course. I phoned around for her earlier (caretaking I know) and discovered that she’s going to likely have to do placements on a voluntary basis to get the hours in. She says she’s ok with this (I know…) It will work around my paid work. But there will be a monthly payment to be made for the course and I have also made it clear that she will be responsible for paying it out of her allowance that I give her. So… we’ll see. I really really hope for her to meet some people, make some friends, enjoy herself a little. She is nervous but I’m hopeful she can do it and I can help her with the coursework (this is level 2 and the youth work course she abandoned was level 4). She should never have been put on that course, having only achieved a level 1 at that time and abandoned two level 2 courses. She was feeling particularly down this morning having finally read her education records of her struggles as a young child. One of the reports said at age 4, in the classroom environment “she is lost”. My wife has really taken this to heart and said she’s still lost. It’s heart breaking because I do feel she could have been helped more as a child.

Not Wendy your story about your mother’s car reminded me of when my wife was learning to drive. She didn’t want to be put on my insurance but then she did after the fact which cost a lot more. Then she would randomly have a go at me because I’d missed the perfect opportunity when I “could have” encouraged her and offered her the chance to drive. She loves the words, “you could have…” Then I started offering all the time and that annoyed her. I knew little of bpd back then. My wife did learn to drive in the end but that year she spent far less time than an hour behind the wheel of my car, and much of that time just sitting there refusing to drive.

[thankful person]

Kells, thank you, I will look into Amador’s book. I have read about schizophrenia, and I do find it useful in understanding my wife’s various delusions in the skewed way she sees the world. I felt especially sad hearing her school reports this morning because I’ve worked in many schools and I felt I could see her wondering around “lost” and not understanding anything. She questions her own memories but I’ve no doubt she was abused and raped by her uncle as she was severely traumatised when we first met. Moving into another recent post here, but I think this is one reason she likes still sleeping with the children. She sleeps more lightly. When she feels a nightmare coming on, she can stop it. When we first met, she used to writhe on the bed in pain and terror during the nightmares and I couldn’t wake her, but this has stopped since having children. I never wanted them in the bed with her for safety reasons for their own safety, but I think despite the bpd they are securely attached because of this, they are all very confident children..