Weekend from Hell

[Depression = 72% of members]

It’s been quite a while since posting here for me - but I’ve just experienced one of the worst weekends of my life and all I can do right now is come here and vent. 

My daughter asked if she could come home from college for the long weekend (its Veterans Day here in the states).  My BPD wife and I reluctantly agreed since she will be home for the Thanksgiving week anyway. 

It just went bad.  My wife has been splitting me this past week and it got worst over the weekend with my daughter here.  My wife told me that she thought our marriage (of 33 years) was based on a lie which set me off.  It led into a horrible argument and unfortunately my daughter was privy to some of it and it really upset her.  I wound up telling her to go to her boyfriend’s place last night because I didn’t want her to be around.  That upset my wife and now she is pissed at me for allowing that - as we are both conservative in our beliefs and telling her to go to her boyfriend’s goes against our principals.  I didn’t know what else to do as I am not naive as to the fact that this young man who she has been with for four years and her have probably been involved physically and I felt it better for her not to be her.  She couldn’t go to a girlfriend’s house as they are all off at college as well. 

We wound up taking her back to school today. And for the whole 2 hr dive back she wouldn’t say a word to me.

My wife plans on going out of state for Thanksgiving because she says she needs to get away from me.  She’d go sooner but wants to be around for the birth of our grandchild which is due next week (our son and wife’s first kid).

In all honesty I am relieved she is leaving for Thanksgiving.  I feel like our marriage is closing in on its final days.  It’s very sad.

Thanks for listening.

[Chief Drizzt]

It’s been quite a while since posting here for me - but I’ve just experienced one of the worst weekends of my life and all I can do right now is come here and vent. 

My daughter asked if she could come home from college for the long weekend (its Veterans Day here in the states).  My BPD wife and I reluctantly agreed since she will be home for the Thanksgiving week anyway. 

It just went bad.  My wife has been splitting me this past week and it got worst over the weekend with my daughter here.  My wife told me that she thought our marriage (of 33 years) was based on a lie which set me off.  It led into a horrible argument and unfortunately my daughter was privy to some of it and it really upset her.  I wound up telling her to go to her boyfriend’s place last night because I didn’t want her to be around.  That upset my wife and now she is pissed at me for allowing that - as we are both conservative in our beliefs and telling her to go to her boyfriend’s goes against our principals.  I didn’t know what else to do as I am not naive as to the fact that this young man who she has been with for four years and her have probably been involved physically and I felt it better for her not to be her.  She couldn’t go to a girlfriend’s house as they are all off at college as well. 

We wound up taking her back to school today. And for the whole 2 hr dive back she wouldn’t say a word to me.

My wife plans on going out of state for Thanksgiving because she says she needs to get away from me.  She’d go sooner but wants to be around for the birth of our grandchild which is due next week (our son and wife’s first kid).

In all honesty I am relieved she is leaving for Thanksgiving.  I feel like our marriage is closing in on its final days.  It’s very sad.

Thanks for listening.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Pook075]

So sorry Chief, I hope the narratives can change and you guys can have a productive conversation soon.  You're right, the Thanksgiving holiday may be a good time to catch your breath and hopefully find a way to refocus.  Maybe after a long weekend apart, you guys can talk through some things and find common ground.  Sometimes the time apart did that for my marriage.

[SaltyDawg]

Chief,

   Sorry you had such a rough weekend. 

   I get the feeling that you are very distressed at what happened and are also overwhelmed by what just transpired and are understandably upset.

   My wife also gets triggered by our daughter, she had a major blow up about two weeks ago on this.  It took my wife the better part of a week to come to terms with it (she is partially self aware of her behaviors) - so even though it may sound as I am placating you, I'm not -- "This too shall pass".  Give it some time, and pray on it.

You said "My wife told me that she thought our marriage (of 33 years) was based on a lie which set me off."  That can be really tough to hear, where your wife is expressing her feelings that do not match the facts, as you know them.

Perhaps, try and see her perspective and validate her feelings, while not validating the facts, which are more than likely distorted beyond recognition.

I know with the recovery process my wife is going through that there are setbacks, but we are generally heading in a good direction.

I do like the idea of some separation of the Thanksgiving holiday, but I encourage you to control your temper, and try to validate her feelings, to help your wife 'reset' to being regulated, give it a few days, and then speak to her of your concerns once she has re-regulated.

What do you think of this idea?  If you don't like it, perhaps you can brainstorm and come with some other ideas.  What are your thoughts on this?

Perhaps pray and meditate on this.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[Chief Drizzt]

Chief,

   Sorry you had such a rough weekend. 

   I get the feeling that you are very distressed at what happened and are also overwhelmed by what just transpired and are understandably upset.

   My wife also gets triggered by our daughter, she had a major blow up about two weeks ago on this.  It took my wife the better part of a week to come to terms with it (she is partially self aware of her behaviors) - so even though it may sound as I am placating you, I'm not -- "This too shall pass".  Give it some time, and pray on it.

You said "My wife told me that she thought our marriage (of 33 years) was based on a lie which set me off."  That can be really tough to hear, where your wife is expressing her feelings that do not match the facts, as you know them.

Perhaps, try and see her perspective and validate her feelings, while not validating the facts, which are more than likely distorted beyond recognition.

I know with the recovery process my wife is going through that there are setbacks, but we are generally heading in a good direction.

I do like the idea of some separation of the Thanksgiving holiday, but I encourage you to control your temper, and try to validate her feelings, to help your wife 'reset' to being regulated, give it a few days, and then speak to her of your concerns once she has re-regulated.

What do you think of this idea?  If you don't like it, perhaps you can brainstorm and come with some other ideas.  What are your thoughts on this?

Perhaps pray and meditate on this.

Take care with self-care.

SD

Hi SD - I am usually real good about keeping my cool - for some reason that comment set me off -  because I know its not true. 

I totally agree with your advice - in giving it a few days before speaking with her.  She won’t speak to me right now anyway. 

I’m definitely praying on it.  I have been praying that my marriage doesn’t fall apart but now I’m shifting to more of a “help me through this separation phase” in my prayers.  I don’t want it - but I’m not sure how to continue with someone who is mentally ill and refuses to even consider the possibility of it let alone seek out professional help with it.  Every time I bring it up she sees it as an attack against her - and I haven’t even mentioned the words “Borderline Personality Disorder” yet.

I know the advice has always been not to tell your BPD person that you think they might have it - but that advice has done nothing to make my situation any better.  When things settle down and she starts to talking to me again I’ve resolved myself to bring it up. The marriage is going down in flames anyway - so at this point I want to mention it to her in the hopes that she will at least look into it before it’s completely over.  If she doesn’t get the specific help for this condition we won’t last. 

[SaltyDawg]

Hi SD - I am usually real good about keeping my cool - for some reason that comment set me off -  because I know its not true. 

I totally agree with your advice - in giving it a few days before speaking with her.  She won’t speak to me right now anyway. 

I’m definitely praying on it.  I have been praying that my marriage doesn’t fall apart but now I’m shifting to more of a “help me through this separation phase” in my prayers.  I don’t want it - but I’m not sure how to continue with someone who is mentally ill and refuses to even consider the possibility of it let alone seek out professional help with it.  Every time I bring it up she sees it as an attack against her - and I haven’t even mentioned the words “Borderline Personality Disorder” yet.

I know the advice has always been not to tell your BPD person that you think they might have it - but that advice has done nothing to make my situation any better.  When things settle down and she starts to talking to me again I’ve resolved myself to bring it up. The marriage is going down in flames anyway - so at this point I want to mention it to her in the hopes that she will at least look into it before it’s completely over.  If she doesn’t get the specific help for this condition we won’t last. 

Chief,

   I am learning a new method of communicating, which *might* work.  I have outlined it in my post here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=356998.msg13203438#msg13203438  It combines both tools intended for BPD and also intended for those in Crisis.  I have had good results, so good, I am sharing it only two weeks in, I usually wait at least a month to see if a tool works, before I share it here.  Both are based on tried and true principles albeit for different reasons.

   Let me know what you think.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I meant to put this in the post above.

With regards to sharing your diagnoses.  Definitely not advisable now.  It is not your place to make a diagnosis; however, if and when you do couple's therapy, you can independently make your case to the couple's therapist, and let him/her handle the information in an appropriate way.

I have also written a bit on how to do couple's therapy with a person who might have BPD.

Just drill back on my previous posts in the past month and look for the string "couple's" and you will find plenty on how I manage my couple's therapy, which is usually ineffective for the complacent - you need to pushback and steer the conversations to the issues at hand, without referring to them as borderline traits/symptoms, but by describing them, and how they affect the relationship, and have the couple's therapist guide the conversation.  This is tricky, but doable.  Are you up for this challenge?

[Chief Drizzt]

I meant to put this in the post above.

With regards to sharing your diagnoses.  Definitely not advisable now.  It is not your place to make a diagnosis; however, if and when you do couple's therapy, you can independently make your case to the couple's therapist, and let him/her handle the information in an appropriate way.

I have also written a bit on how to do couple's therapy with a person who might have BPD.

Just drill back on my previous posts in the past month and look for the string "couple's" and you will find plenty on how I manage my couple's therapy, which is usually ineffective for the complacent - you need to pushback and steer the conversations to the issues at hand, without referring to them as borderline traits/symptoms, but by describing them, and how they affect the relationship, and have the couple's therapist guide the conversation.  This is tricky, but doable.  Are you up for this challenge?

 I’ll check your posts out that you referenced.  Here is my thing about the couples therapy - I don’t think my wife will go.  I will keep pushing for it (gently) in hopes that will change.  I see a therapist for PTSD (military related) on a weekly basis and her mantra is that if the other person in a relationship is unwilling to do anything to better themselves and the other person is stuck in a loop of trying and trying then the relationship is due to failure.   I’ll hold off on making any mention of BPD for the moment but that is where I am at.  I don’t want our marriage ending without her having some sense of what a major cause of it is; if it does.  I’m willing to take my lumps and admit my failures - and have done so repeatedly but I don’t think it’s right for it to end without pointing this out - particularly if she changes her mind down the road and wants to try and reconcile.  I of course would be amicable if she acknowledged it and at least looked into it.

I’m getting way of myself though as things are currently in a holding pattern until our granddaughter gets born and my wife goes off for a few days or weeks and then comes back.  

Thanks for your help SD - you seem very insightful.

[SaltyDawg]

I will keep pushing for it (gently) in hopes that will change.  

Do be gentle, they won't go until they feel like they are ready.  I drug my wife to a series of couple's therapists when she first started to get violent, one clicked with her, but the therapist spent 90% of the time on her and 10% on me, and the T decided after a vacation she had enough.  We found a few more, she fired every one of them.  This was a decade before she drug me to a therapist so I could get fixed.  I was passive for 3 years, no progress, and the false narrative had that T thinking I was the issue.  It wasn't I pushed back after my wife's suicide attempt did things change for the better. 


I see a therapist for PTSD (military related) on a weekly basis and her mantra is that if the other person in a relationship is unwilling to do anything to better themselves and the other person is stuck in a loop of trying and trying then the relationship is due to failure.  

Did you mean 'doomed to failure', I would agree.  Or did she mean due to her failure to recognize her part in the relationship?  Or both?

BTW, thank you for your service.  I am a service academy graduate, and have played several times in the sandbox.  I can tell you without a doubt, I would rather face and have faced the enemy combatant in theater than I would my wife who presents as a borderline - that ain't no sh!t :wink:.  No PTSD from the sandbox, but I might have some mild symptoms of cPTSD from my wife's behaviors for the past two decades with my trauma bonded @ss.


I’ll hold off on making any mention of BPD for the moment but that is where I am at.  I don’t want our marriage ending without her having some sense of what a major cause of it is; if it does.  I’m willing to take my lumps and admit my failures - and have done so repeatedly but I don’t think it’s right for it to end without pointing this out - particularly if she changes her mind down the road and wants to try and reconcile.  I of course would be amicable if she acknowledged it and at least looked into it.

I  hear you.  I agree with you.  I thought the very same thing.  I did exactly that (look at my posts from a year ago).  The difference being, my wife knew she was messed up (partial self-awareness, she left out her journal, page open, and I looked at it, and she couldn't not understand why I and the kids behaved the way we did around her - we were afraid of her (her tantrums), and she was confused - this was the chink/crack in her armor, and that is what I targeted to get her attention on the matter.  I also combined it with obvious issues that she was already aware of (the suicide attempts, I made the couple's T aware of all 6, not just the one the T processed) and combined with the physical violence (the couple's T reported her for the original ones that I shared from a decade earlier, not the ones that happened earlier that day).   I took a calculated gamble on sharing this information with her.  The first 3 months were hell, she looked at it and refused to admit anything, she still does; however, she does waiver and fluctuates from being perfectly normal to thinking that she is a monster (her words) depending on her mood swing.  She doesn't like it, she doesn't understand it, I feel that the T's are doing a disservice to her by not telling her about it (after they denied she had it before they were aware of these symptoms 'in session' - I think the T's have their own bit of shame that they are unwilling to admit).  This has shifted, and the T seems to be on the same page as me of 'don't ask, don't tell' with regards to BPD and has instructed me on several occasions to do things consistent for a borderline - kind of an unwritten, unspoken truce between me and the couple's T.


I’m getting way of myself though as things are currently in a holding pattern until our granddaughter gets born and my wife goes off for a few days or weeks and then comes back.  

Sounds like a good plan.  Perhaps her mood will change back with the 'baby fix'.  How do you think she will do when there is distance between the two of you?  Does she have issues only with you, or does it spill over to other relationships as well (it spills over to all of my wife's relationships [volunteer, work], except very close friends, and even then she sometimes acts crazy and is described as wearing her emotions on her sleeve by her close friends).

[Chief Drizzt]

I will keep pushing for it (gently) in hopes that will change.  

Do be gentle, they won't go until they feel like they are ready.  I drug my wife to a series of couple's therapists when she first started to get violent, one clicked with her, but the therapist spent 90% of the time on her and 10% on me, and the T decided after a vacation she had enough.  We found a few more, she fired every one of them.  This was a decade before she drug me to a therapist so I could get fixed.  I was passive for 3 years, no progress, and the false narrative had that T thinking I was the issue.  It wasn't I pushed back after my wife's suicide attempt did things change for the better. 


I see a therapist for PTSD (military related) on a weekly basis and her mantra is that if the other person in a relationship is unwilling to do anything to better themselves and the other person is stuck in a loop of trying and trying then the relationship is due to failure.  

Did you mean 'doomed to failure', I would agree.  Or did she mean due to her failure to recognize her part in the relationship?  Or both?

BTW, thank you for your service.  I am a service academy graduate, and have played several times in the sandbox.  I can tell you without a doubt, I would rather face and have faced the enemy combatant in theater than I would my wife who presents as a borderline - that ain't no sh!t :wink:.  No PTSD from the sandbox, but I might have some mild symptoms of cPTSD from my wife's behaviors for the past two decades with my trauma bonded @ss.


I’ll hold off on making any mention of BPD for the moment but that is where I am at.  I don’t want our marriage ending without her having some sense of what a major cause of it is; if it does.  I’m willing to take my lumps and admit my failures - and have done so repeatedly but I don’t think it’s right for it to end without pointing this out - particularly if she changes her mind down the road and wants to try and reconcile.  I of course would be amicable if she acknowledged it and at least looked into it.

I  hear you.  I agree with you.  I thought the very same thing.  I did exactly that (look at my posts from a year ago).  The difference being, my wife knew she was messed up (partial self-awareness, she left out her journal, page open, and I looked at it, and she couldn't not understand why I and the kids behaved the way we did around her - we were afraid of her (her tantrums), and she was confused - this was the chink/crack in her armor, and that is what I targeted to get her attention on the matter.  I also combined it with obvious issues that she was already aware of (the suicide attempts, I made the couple's T aware of all 6, not just the one the T processed) and combined with the physical violence (the couple's T reported her for the original ones that I shared from a decade earlier, not the ones that happened earlier that day).   I took a calculated gamble on sharing this information with her.  The first 3 months were hell, she looked at it and refused to admit anything, she still does; however, she does waiver and fluctuates from being perfectly normal to thinking that she is a monster (her words) depending on her mood swing.  She doesn't like it, she doesn't understand it, I feel that the T's are doing a disservice to her by not telling her about it (after they denied she had it before they were aware of these symptoms 'in session' - I think the T's have their own bit of shame that they are unwilling to admit).  This has shifted, and the T seems to be on the same page as me of 'don't ask, don't tell' with regards to BPD and has instructed me on several occasions to do things consistent for a borderline - kind of an unwritten, unspoken truce between me and the couple's T.


I’m getting way of myself though as things are currently in a holding pattern until our granddaughter gets born and my wife goes off for a few days or weeks and then comes back.  

Sounds like a good plan.  Perhaps her mood will change back with the 'baby fix'.  How do you think she will do when there is distance between the two of you?  Does she have issues only with you, or does it spill over to other relationships as well (it spills over to all of my wife's relationships [volunteer, work], except very close friends, and even then she sometimes acts crazy and is described as wearing her emotions on her sleeve by her close friends).

Sounds like you have been through the wringer brother!  It sounds very similar to my own situation - though other than extreme outbursts from her things haven’t gotten physical.  It’s come close a few times but when things get that heated one of us usually walks away.  Thank God for that.  She did attempt suicide once - 9 months ago.  That was the first time I brought up mental illness with her - and that backfired.  She knows I told the kids about it and has demanded I walk it back.  Problem is when I told them all three of them told me they had been aware of it for years. So any attempt at that seems futile.  I tried walking it back with my daughter recently - and she wasn’t buying it.

To hear you’ve been running the gamut with Ts for 10 years is disheartening.  I don’t know if I have the patience to hold out that long any more.  To be honest now that our kids are grown and out of the house I feel like calling it a win that I was able to hold out long enough for them until they were adults - and just let things end between us.  I’m just tired and as I alluded to I have some sh!t I’m dealing with from my former career that has got me all messed up mentally.  Dealing with that and her seems to me to be too much sometimes. 

With regards to my T - I think she meant both.  She in a roundabout way told me that I should just let her leave.  That’s pretty much where I’m at after pondering over it.  I won’t actively seek a divorce/separation but if she does I’m inclined to let it happen with no resistance.  When she heads out of town I’m thinking of hiring a divorce lawyer just to be ready in case she does. 

Like your wife mine seems to have issues with everyone in the family from time to time.  The only person who hasn’t been split is our daughter, although it seems like she is ghosting her since we took her back to college.  She has sent us a few texts and my wife has not replied.  She usually does right away.  There is a stray cat that lives near her dorm that she sends us pictures of frequently.  Today she saw the cat with two others that looked just like her and got excited and sent us pics of them.  My wife didn’t respond.  When I asked her if she saw the texts she said that she did and that was that. 

When we dropped her off we were supposed to get something from her dorm that we forgot.  As we were driving off campus she called to tell us we forgot it so I said we would come back to get it.  She lives on the third floor and I told her to meet me at the top of the stairs and I would run up and grab it.  This pissed my wife off.  She said that our daughter should run it all the way down and that I wasn’t holding her accountable by going up to get it. I shrugged that off and ran up and got it from her.  In my mind that is no big deal but my wife saw that as an act of defiance from our daughter - and from me for not demanding she run it down.  So I think that may be the beginning of my wife splitting on my daughter.  Thank God she is a hundred miles away from this drama.  She doesn’t need this nonsense.  My wife tends to see our adult kids (even our married ones) as still being under our authority as children.  I don’t.  My take is we did our job - raised three kids into responsible adults and that is that.  She is pushing them all away and that is killing me.  Don’t get me wrong - our kids aren’t perfect and have made some dumb a$$ mistakes along the way - but who doesn’t?  Particularly when they are in their early twenties.

And I see the writing on the wall with our granddaughter that is about to be born.  Our daughter in law is very wary of my wife and I have no doubt she is going to limit how much time we can spend with her. I don’t even want to think how my wife is going to respond to that - God help me.

When my wife does go away my guess is that she will start missing me and will want to come back sooner than later.  I could be wrong about that but that is what I think is going to happen.  I’m hoping that will put her in the mindset of wanting to start T with me.  If it goes that way it will give me a sliver of hope.  We’ll have to see how it plays out.

Thank you for your service as well! 

[SaltyDawg]

She did attempt suicide once - 9 months ago.  That was the first time I brought up mental illness with her - and that backfired.  She knows I told the kids about it and has demanded I walk it back.  Problem is when I told them all three of them told me they had been aware of it for years. So any attempt at that seems futile.  I tried walking it back with my daughter recently - and she wasn’t buying it.

The suicide symptom is "Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation".  Did your wife have more than one suicide attempt?  Mine had 6.  Also trying to 'walk it back' is trying to validate the invalid, that doesn't work. 


To hear you’ve been running the gamut with Ts for 10 years is disheartening.  I don’t know if I have the patience to hold out that long any more.

Let me give a little more context, the first round was initiated by me, and we did it for a few months; however, as she was firing each and every therapist, I decided I wasn't going to put the effort into it, and told her to pick one, and she never did, until a decade later, after our daughter was in hospital for anorexia nervosa and determined that I was the issue behind it.  I jumped at the opportunity, as I was hoping the first couple's T could see through my wife's smoke screen (she couldn't as the T is not a mind reader, and I didn't give pushback on my wife's false narrative at that time).


To be honest now that our kids are grown and out of the house I feel like calling it a win that I was able to hold out long enough for them until they were adults - and just let things end between us.  I’m just tired and as I alluded to I have some sh!t I’m dealing with from my former career that has got me all messed up mentally.  Dealing with that and her seems to me to be too much sometimes.

I too have felt the same way.  I don't know if I could deal with the false allegations that she has threatened, even though I feel as though they have been addressed with the current couple's therapist who is a former CPS social worker.  Fortunately, I don't have the sh!t from the sandbox, as I felt very supported as I had the backing of Uncle Sam all the way, and the training was good, it is the stuff my wife did, that I did not expect due to her uBPD traits that has messed me up.


With regards to my T - I think she meant both.  She in a roundabout way told me that I should just let her leave.  That’s pretty much where I’m at after pondering over it.  I won’t actively seek a divorce/separation but if she does I’m inclined to let it happen with no resistance.  When she heads out of town I’m thinking of hiring a divorce lawyer just to be ready in case she does. 

I too am of a similar mindset.  I have not hired a divorce lawyer (yet); however, I have done research.  Since your children are out of the house, I recommend reading/listening to:  "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder" by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger - that way you can be prepared, if and when it might happen.


The only person who hasn’t been split is our daughter, although it seems like she is ghosting her since we took her back to college. 

Similar story with my D and my wife.  Because of D's AN, she make it a point not to make our D a target; however, that has changed recently.


My wife tends to see our adult kids (even our married ones) as still being under our authority as children.  I don’t.  My take is we did our job - raised three kids into responsible adults and that is that.  She is pushing them all away and that is killing me.  Don’t get me wrong - our kids aren’t perfect and have made some dumb a$$ mistakes along the way - but who doesn’t?

A very similar dynamic in my household with my two children who aren't quite as old as yours.  I definitely can relate to you on this.  My D is threatening to go NC/LC as soon as she is 18.  My wife was able to share with the couple's T a story of estrangement between her brother and her father for over a decade (a multi-generational FOO issue).


When my wife does go away my guess is that she will start missing me and will want to come back sooner than later.  I could be wrong about that but that is what I think is going to happen.  I’m hoping that will put her in the mindset of wanting to start T with me.  If it goes that way it will give me a sliver of hope.

You might want to do some research on T's.  Come up with a short list of 3 that will work with what you think the issues are.  Let your wife choose the T (from that list) so she is in control, and take is slow, one issue per session max, unless your wife demands more.  Take ownership on little things, and let her take ownership too - from what you describe your W might not be ready for this.