Should I use DEARMAN to communicate what I found out and how I feel to him?

[unicorn2014]

I think the anger may be displaced.  In other words, it could be that you are angry with yourself (for all the time invested and ignoring the signs?) and putting it on him (for being who he was all along).  

Absolutely not. I was not ignoring any signs. My partner is really good at being murky. He is was in the communications business. He made millions on selling ideas. If he wanted someone to believe something they believed it.

Putting it on him? Absolutely not.

What I am processing is my original feeling of betrayal because there is finally an end in sight, its finally safe to feel my feelings.

I had not been able to feel my feelings until now.

Ultimately the past won't matter if he is able to show me a divorce decree.

So now I have to work through all this emotional garbage.

He is definitely on his way to getting that divorce.

I'd say I have 3 months to process all this junk because when he is divorced then he is going to be free and clear and I will have to deal with him 100%.

[unicorn2014]

I think it is a good idea to take care of your feelings of anger before engaging with him.  It sounds like you may be trying to do this.

I sure am which is why I posted here before talking to him and I haven't talked to him yet.

Sometimes when I feel triggered, I find help using 'urge surfing.'  I read about it in relation to a person trying to quit drinking, but it can be a helpful tool to cope with uncomfortable feelings no matter what their source.

www.mymindfulnesspractice.com/urge-surfing-mindfulness/

Thank you, I have the DBT diary card app and I am well familiar with that technique. I will look at the link provided on triggering and wise mind. I'm also well familiar with that from DBT.

I'm not used to feeling this amount of anger and not acting on it. That is very contrary to my  nature.

[unicorn2014]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

Thank you, I will read that .

[unicorn2014]

Then by being mindful and just being with how you feel, will allow that feeling to be observed just by you.

When you are ready and feeling less angry, as the feeling decreases within you, and it will, then just resume your usual routine with your bf.

Eventually if you follow the process the leads you to a wise mind it will help you reach a place of acceptance.

It is the journey between being triggered and acceptance that is the hardest part to navigate. It is about learning to self soothe.

Thank you sweet heart you are right and so far I have succeeded because I have not told my partner what I found out about the separation requirement in his state, in fact I haven't talked to him on the phone at all today.  I knew that it wasn't a good idea to talk to him about it but I needed help working through my feeling. This is all new to me.

I should also add he doesn't think I should bring third parties into our relationship. I can only imagine how he would feel if he knew I was on this website. I think he would blow a gasket. He views a therapist as a third party and we used to argue all the time about that. I know better now.

I know I need to wait until I call him because I will have to hide  compartmentalize what I am feeling. He is very attuned to voice, and if there is any hint of anything questionable in my voice he will pick at it. I know I don't owe him anything, he hasn't called me today nor asked me why I haven't called him, yet.

We all know that reality of BPD as well, their hyperawareness of others emotions as a survival mechanism.

It is not empathy.

I know that too.

[GaGrl]

It concerns me that he explains away bad behavior by attributing it to a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Just because he is MBTI qualified, he should not convince you that a personality type drives moral or ethical behavior or indicates superior intelligence. It does not. A number of members on this forum are MBTI qualified, and we will all tell you that MBTI does not measure intelligence nor emotional health.

[Sunfl0wer]

I know I need to wait until I call him because I will have to hide  compartmentalize what I am feeling. He is very attuned to voice, and if there is any hint of anything questionable in my voice he will pick at it. I know I don't owe him anything, he hasn't called me today nor asked me why I haven't called him, yet.

I think it is great to think ahead.

Maybe you could plan a response in case he speaks with you, notices something is 'off' and wants to press you for info?

Do you think he is likely to sense something is off and respond by trying to 'trigger' you to react/spill it on him?

[patientandclear]

I've upheld the facetime boundary, and initially when he requested to watch star trek with me I said no but then I had a change of heart. My boundary with texting was morning and evening check in. I agree I need to relook at my boundaries. Getting a good morning text from him provided cognitive dissonance for me with what I'm struggling with today.

Unicorn -- hello.  I'm sorry you're feeling so upset.  I do think the various posters who say that this is not actually new information -- just a variant on the old information -- are absolutely right.  This is just more information in the category of "he deceived you about his marital status, his availability to be engaged, and his progress toward his divorce, and may still be deceiving you."  You knew all that already.  This is just another detail of HOW he is or was doing that.

I want to call you attention to the boundaries question.  Sunflower is so right, in my view.  BECAUSE of your realization that your partner is not available to be with you in an intimate r/ship on terms that meet your own values, you set boundaries.  This is to relieve YOUR anxiety around engaging in a r/ship that violates your values.  That was a very important step down the road to peace and calm and your own happiness.

So what were those boundaries?  We are all having a hard time understanding them, I think; the only thing that I clearly picked up from your various posts on the change you made in light of his unavailability for an intimate r/ship on  your terms, was no Facetime.

So giving in to his request to Facetime is actually incredibly significant.  This is a small line you picked, but because you picked it, it became quite important.  Now you are communicating to him and to you that actually, things will or might be the same as they were before, even if he does NOT make himself available to be in an intimate r/ship on your terms.  When you send this signal, it may cause him to redouble his efforts to bust more boundaries, and also, reduces any incentive he may have to get divorced.  Why should he?  You're telling  him you'll eventually go back to all the stuff he enjoys with you, even if he doesn't make those difficult slow changes that he seems to have some sort of mysterious resistance to, as Grey Kitty keeps pointing out.

Let me give an example where I did the same thing.  As you know, my exbf has told me he only wants to be friends, but when we do friends, he plunges into incredibly intimate partner-like territory with me, but because we are just "friends," he feels no accountability to be faithful to me or discuss r/ship changes with me, he just does those things unilaterally and then punishes me if I object.  (Shorthand version because this post is not about me, just using my own difficult situation as an example.)  The last time we reconnected, I told him I accepted that he wanted that friends limit, and because of that, I too would have limits that made that emotionally safe for me.  My limit was that we not return to daily emails and texts that made it feel to me like he was my partner.  I told him this.  I would instead write letters.  He would email in response: "got your letter!  It was amazing.  I know I'm not supposed to email back but I just wanted to let you know I got it.  Also, have you read [X webpage]?"

Because of the little tag and question that requested a response, I would respond briefly: "interesting article!  Thanks."  And he would respond back with a para on the article.  And I would eventually have to say "dude, you are emailing and I did not want that."  And he would write back: "oh!  I forgot you didn't want to email!  By the way, would you like to get together next week?"

Do you see that, if I was serious about making my dealings with this very slippery and charming guy emotionally safe for me, I needed to be serious about this email thing?  It was the somewhat arbitrary line I drew, the line that represented in MY mind the difference between "you are my partner and I can expect partner things from you," and "you are NOT my partner and I am NOT going to expect partner things, much as we like each other and want to stay connected in some way."

He saw that line as a challenge and dedicated himself to rubbing it out.  Eventually I let him because it was too much work to keep writing back "hey!  I don't want to email!" and also, it felt withholding, and I too enjoy the emails (at least till I realized he's telling another woman he's madly in love with her while sending me those emails).  But then ... .we slid back into his preferred normal arrangement, where he is my partner but does not acknowledge it and will not be accountable for it, and I am all set up to be ultra hurt by his next love affair.

You gotta define what r/ship you are comfortable having with a man who is married to someone else, and deceived you about it.  Really, you have to be SUPER clear on this, with yourself.  You have to be able to write a sentence that answers that question super concretely.

And then you have to put those boundaries in place, and then you need not to mess with them unless there is an incredibly good reason, NOT "I missed him."  Of course you did.  I miss my guy too, a ton.  Not a good enough reason to make boundary exceptions.  If you do make those exceptions because it feels good at the moment, then you really cannot blame him for thinking he can have an intimate r/ship with you while be married to another woman.  Because he can.  He is.

[unicorn2014]

It concerns me that he explains away bad behavior by attributing it to a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Just because he is MBTI qualified, he should not convince you that a personality type drives moral or ethical behavior or indicates superior intelligence. It does not. A number of members on this forum are MBTI qualified, and we will all tell you that MBTI does not measure intelligence nor emotional health.

He was trained to administer the MBTI test.

Regarding intelligence, he does have superior intelligence, which is part of why I want to keep him.

I don't think he is telling me that being an INTJ makes him more moral or ethical.

What he is telling me is that being an INTJ means he questions consensus reality and doesn't live by it.

I think we are getting in the weeds here though.

The point I was trying to make is that when I told him that consensus reality says he's married he said he doesn't go by what consensus reality says.

He would be the first to admit that the INTJ has a very dark side, that many INTJs are criminals and that INTJs are often the bad guy in tv and film.

----

My biggest bone of contention is it doesn't matter if he loved or was in love with his wife or not, the point of the matter is he was married for the duration of our relationship. He claims that if he knew his divorce hadn't been filed he never would have come to see me, but the fact of the matter is his divorce couldn't have been filed within the first 12 months of separation, so I've caught him in a lie.

He has also apologized and asked my forgiveness.

However he does not know I have new information, the part about the separation requirement.

---

I hope I don't look like a dog chasing its tail. I feel like one.

----

To me its a big deal that I found this new information out because its proof he lied to me.

----

And I haven't told him yet that I've found proof he lied to me.

---

This has to do with his emotional immaturity and wanting instant gratification. He could have flown out to see me as a friend, stayed in a hotel, and not had a relationship with me. I would have been fine with that. Then I wouldn't have all these conflicting feelings now. In fact he said when he initially reached out to me he just wanted to be friends, he had no intention of getting into a relationship with me.

[unicorn2014]

I know I need to wait until I call him because I will have to hide  compartmentalize what I am feeling. He is very attuned to voice, and if there is any hint of anything questionable in my voice he will pick at it. I know I don't owe him anything, he hasn't called me today nor asked me why I haven't called him, yet.

I think it is great to think ahead.

Maybe you could plan a response in case he speaks with you, notices something is 'off' and wants to press you for info?

Do you think he is likely to sense something is off and respond by trying to 'trigger' you to react/spill it on him?

I was able to talk to him on the phone about my morning at my  meeting, at starbucks, at the grocery store and with my daughter without him questioning anything.

Several nights ago he did say he was going to let me set the pace and not force himself on me so maybe he meant that. There was no punishing behavior as to why I didn't call him this morning.

So as far as he knows, nothing is up.

Now I just have to process these icky feelings here.

[Sunfl0wer]

What do you think the icky feelings are about?

[unicorn2014]

And then you have to put those boundaries in place, and then you need not to mess with them unless there is an incredibly good reason, NOT "I missed him."  Of course you did.  I miss my guy too, a ton.  Not a good enough reason to make boundary exceptions.  If you do make those exceptions because it feels good at the moment, then you really cannot blame him for thinking he can have an intimate r/ship with you while be married to another woman.  Because he can.  He is.

That is not the part that is upsetting me, I know he is working towards  a divorce now. I'm upset about what happened in the past, not what is happening today. I upset about what happened in 2012 and 2013, not what's going on right now.

I told him  when he told me that he was going to withdraw his divorce petition (that wasn't filed according to the court) and file bankruptcy instead that is the point at which I needed to take a step back from the relationship and I didn't. That was Memorial Day 2013, I remember because he still had his business at the time. I remember how upset I was back then but I didn't have BPD family to help me out so I stayed in the relationship and that's when the damage started to rack up.

I'm ok with  today, that's not the problem.

I'm not ok with what happened in the past.

I think radical acceptance is the answer here.

I don't think there's any point in telling him what I found out.

What matters is that he get divorced and he's working his way towards that, and I'm upholding my boundaries.

He didn't push me to watch star trek with him, when I initially said no he was ok with that. In fact he told me he was being mindful of my boundaries and not pushing himself on me.

That's not the problem.


I think when he brings up the divorce again I can discretely point out to him that I found out he had to be separated for 12 months before he could file so he wouldn't have been able to file during this first 12 months of our relationship . That way I'm not confronting him but I'm also not dishonoring myself by keeping silent about what I now know to be true.

[unicorn2014]

What do you think the icky feelings are about?

The icky feelings are knowing I was being deceived for at least the first 12 months of my relationship. I believed I was having one relationship while in reality I was having an entirely different relationship . I thought I was in love but in reality I was being taken advantage of.

I'm a slightly  more emotionally  mature and sober minded person today.

[Sunfl0wer]

What do you think the icky feelings are about?

The icky feelings are knowing I was being deceived for at least the first 12 months of my relationship. I believed I was having one relationship while in reality I was having an entirely different relationship . I thought I was in love but in reality I was being taken advantage of.

I'm a slightly  more emotionally  mature and sober minded person today.

Why do you think that recently icky feelings resurfaced?

Are you now suspecting that there is a possibility that your SO is still taking advantage of you?

[unicorn2014]

What do you think the icky feelings are about?

The icky feelings are knowing I was being deceived for at least the first 12 months of my relationship. I believed I was having one relationship while in reality I was having an entirely different relationship . I thought I was in love but in reality I was being taken advantage of.

I'm a slightly  more emotionally  mature and sober minded person today.

Why do you think that recently icky feelings resurfaced?

Are you now suspecting that there is a possibility that your SO is still taking advantage of you?

No when I say icky I mean angry, anger is an icky feeling to me, I don't like it. Since I have PTSD I'm totally tired of anger, the fight or flight instinct in me is totally played out.

I'm simply angry about what happened in the past.

I'm fine with what's happening today, everything is within acceptable parameters.

I'm not fine with what happened in the past.

I guess I have to apply all the recovery in me to this and really pray for serenity .

[Sunfl0wer]

Well, it does make sense that you are angry about what has happened in the past.  It also makes sense that learning more info has reminded you of this anger.

I also have PTSD and for some reason, Anger has been a challenge for me. I think anger is a tricky feeling to learn to live with.  Many negative experiences are associated with anger for many people.  Most people seem to get angry at Anger.

I suppose I tried to avoid Anger in many ways.  Ultimately, I find greatest peace when I listen to anger, and then listen some more.

[unicorn2014]

Well, it does make sense that you are angry about what has happened in the past.  It also makes sense that learning more info has reminded you of this anger.

Yes, I'm angry because of what I learned about the separation requirements in his state. It doesn't line up with what he told me. He told me he knew if his divorce hadn't been filed he wouldn't have come to see me, however his divorce couldn't have been filed for the first year of our relationship. So that's what I have to sit with.  I will tell him about it, but not in an angry way. I will tell him about it when he informs me of the progress on the divorce.

I also have PTSD and for some reason, Anger has been a challenge for me. I think anger is a tricky feeling to learn to live with.  Many negative experiences are associated with anger for many people.  Most people seem to get angry at Anger.

I'm not angry with anger, I'm having to learn to live with anger without acting on it. I'm not angry with how my partner is conducting himself today. He is respecting my boundaries, working with a divorce attorney. I'm fine with the relationship today. I'm not fine with what happened in the past.

I suppose I tried to avoid Anger in many ways.  Ultimately, I find greatest peace when I listen to anger, and then listen some more.

I'm tired of listening to my anger. I've been angry since I was a teenager, and then it was at my mom.

I'm going to work on my self awareness inventory in my keeping the love you find book as well as my 10th step inventory in my ACA workbook and go from there. I don't want to take out my past anger on my current partner. I want to make sure that when I communicate to my partner what I found out about separation requirements in his state that no past anger from other relationships (my mother, my ex husband) hijacks the conversation. That is what being triggered is, when you attach past emotion to present situations. Its ok for me to have feelings about what happened in the first year of our relationship and communicate those to him, in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. 

[thefixermom]

Absolutely not. I was not ignoring any signs. My partner is really good at being murky.

And you don't see that as a sign?  It seems the list of signs is very long going way back.

[unicorn2014]

Absolutely not. I was not ignoring any signs. My partner is really good at being murky.

And you don't see that as a sign?  It seems the list of signs is very long going way back.

I think you missed the part where I stated my partner told me he was murky up front and that he was making an effort not to be murky with me. He never told me he wasn't murky. I of course did not know what that meant, that meant this kind of stuff.


What I am angry about is that my partner didn't give me the choice, "Unicorn I have to be separated from my wife for 12 months before I can file a divorce." Then I could have had a choice and wouldn't feel the way I do today. Instead it was "Unicorn I'm filing for divorce" and since I didn't know any better I went along with it. It is a fact that he and his wife have been physically separated since July 2012. He did not cheat on me with his wife. That is not the problem.


If I'm going to subject my partner to an exacting standard that means I have to be willing to subject myself to that same standard and anyone else that I meet. What I didn't tell you is that no man before my partner met my standard. If he is able to get divorced, then I am fine with moving forward in a relationship with him. I don't want to go through the process all over again of finding someone who is the right fit for me. I went through a lot of men before I found him. When I say went through I don't mean slept with, I mean talked to, went out to lunch with, went out to a movie with, etc. My therapist at the time encouraged me to give men a chance. My therapist also knew that I had exacting standards. That is why he was also hoping this relationship would work. He felt that my partner and I were a good fit for each other if he could work through his borderline psychological issues. My partner has suffered a lot of damage in his life.

[patientandclear]

Unicorn, I get that you're not mad about now, you're mad about what happened earlier.

I wasn't suggesting that you need to clarify boundaries because you're mad.  Boundaries are not about responding to anger. They're about setting terms on which you're willing to engage under the actual circumstances that obtain.

I'm not commenting on your new info right now--I know that was your topic--I'm commenting on how your fuzziness about what they current rules of engagement are going to be while your partner's divorce filing is still pending. There do not appear to be any clear known-ahead-of-time limits now except you won't let him visit. Is that true? I'm saying you need to know what the limits are, and be consistent in applying them, or intermittent reinforcement dynamics kick in and he will have zero reason to believe you will enforce any limits.  And thus, incidentally, much less reason to proceed with a divorce that he has some resistance for whatever reason to pursuing.

[unicorn2014]

Unicorn, I get that you're not mad about now, you're mad about what happened earlier.

I wasn't suggesting that you need to clarify boundaries because you're mad.  Boundaries are not about responding to anger. They're about setting terms on which you're willing to engage under the actual circumstances that obtain.

I'm not commenting on your new info right now--I know that was your topic--I'm commenting on how your fuzziness about what they current rules of engagement are going to be while your partner's divorce filing is still pending. There do not appear to be any clear known-ahead-of-time limits now except you won't let him visit. Is that true? I'm saying you need to know what the limits are, and be consistent in applying them, or intermittent reinforcement dynamics kick in and he will have zero reason to believe you will enforce any limits.  And thus, incidentally, much less reason to proceed with a divorce that he has some resistance for whatever reason to pursuing.

The boundaries are we are also not face timing on a daily basis. I granted  him his  request to watch star trek together because I was missing him. We had been face timing daily when he wasn't visiting me since August 2012 until late December 2015 so that is no small deal. I'm actually fine with a once a week Friday night facetime call to watch star trek together so we can have something positive to connect over, that is my idea as opposed to a once a week phone call. There is no pressure for me to call him in the morning. I was feeling that pressure internally. He knows I have cut down the interaction to focus on taking my own inventory and to deal with some leftover baggage from the past.

For me to discover something like I did, the 12 month separation requirement, and not talk to him about is also a big deal.

It wasn't seeing him on FaceTime last night that triggered me either. That was just a coincidence with my post on the legal board.

Like I said, I'm going to have to really pray for serenity here because I can not change the past. That is what I am struggling with. I'm fine with my boundaries today. Everybody knows I've taken a step back and they know why. I'm not fine with what happened in the past.

I guess you could say this is a parallel to what people on the coping board deal with, except I knew when I was a teenager that something was wrong with how my parents were treating me.

I suppose I could try and apply that process to what is going on here, after all there was a period of time when I called him daddy and everyone knew that too.

[Learning Fast]

Hi Unicorn,

I have followed your story basically since inception and have held back my commentary based on your request from some time ago to not comment on your posts if the opinion would not be constructive.  However, I find myself at the point where I can no longer refrain from commenting.

As much as it might be difficult for you to acknowledge what I have to say, in my opinion you need to detach from your partner, regroup and move on.  I feel that your partner is not being entirely truthful about this filing for divorce business and I suspect that the situation will not be much different if we fast forward 3, 6 or however months in the future.  The moderators on this site may admonish my commentary but I'm simply stating my opinion in the hope of helping you move forward.  I realize that you have a lot on your plate with your daughter, your ex, your father and such but your emotional resources are being exhausted by a situation that is untenable.  Please recognize that I applaud your fortitude but simple think that your available emotional resources could be deployed more effectively elsewhere.  Goodness, you have a lot to offer to someone else who would and could appreciate all of your positive attributes.  I will refrain from further commentary if you so desire.

Only the best,

LF

[unicorn2014]

Learning fast, I do not mind what you are saying, you sound like a friend of mine who tells me I have a lot going for me.

I don't think my partner is malevolent , I think he's immature, and it was immature of him to initiate a relationship with me before he had filed for divorce from his wife.

I talked to him tonight and I didn't bring up what I discovered about the 12 month separation requirement time, it wasn't the right time. I'm not angry anymore. As I stated earlier today I'm comfortable with where things are at now, everybody knows I've taken a step back and why.

I'm not in this relationship because I have low self worth.

My partner is an interesting person to me, he's smart, has a great sense of humor, he works in a really interesting field, he is concerned about my well being (when he's not dysregulated) and that of my daughter's as well.

I think what the others said about the divorce being his business, about radical acceptance, is good advice, and like I said I know need to keep working on my serenity.

[thisagain]

I don't think you should tell him about the 12-month thing. For one, I'm not sure your understanding of the legal issue is accurate. And also, I don't think it's worth splitting hairs on the details of whether he was legally able to file at the time he told you he was going to file. The reality is that he didn't file, or he filed and then withdrew. And the reality now is that he still hasn't filed. That's the only part that really matters.

This feels like more misdirecting your anger/resentment about the divorce (though this time the hair you're splitting is technically related to the divorce). I still would encourage you to refocus that energy on the current situation and clarifying and enforcing your boundaries.

Also think you should prepare yourself for the possibility that the divorce could take several months or years even after he files. I highly doubt he'll be able to get a decree 3 months after he files. There's something going on that's making this divorce messy and scary to him.

[unicorn2014]

I don't think you should tell him about the 12-month thing. For one, I'm not sure your understanding of the legal issue is accurate. And also, I don't think it's worth splitting hairs on the details of whether he was legally able to file at the time he told you he was going to file. The reality is that he didn't file, or he filed and then withdrew. And the reality now is that he still hasn't filed. That's the only part that really matters.

My understanding of the legal issue comes directly from a website that shows divorce laws for each state. He is ready to file, he is waiting for his wife's attorney to provide her side.

This feels like more misdirecting your anger/resentment about the divorce (though this time the hair you're splitting is technically related to the divorce). I still would encourage you to refocus that energy on the current situation and clarifying and enforcing your boundaries.

I haven't said anything to him, everything is fine with him. My anger is correct, but I have to let it go because I can't do anything about it now. I think I might mention it to him in an off hand way in the future but what matters now is that he gets divorce filed.

Also think you should prepare yourself for the possibility that the divorce could take several months or years even after he files. I highly doubt he'll be able to get a decree 3 months after he files. There's something going on that's making this divorce messy and scary to him.

I don't think that's true. I know what's going on, its intellectual property rights and it involves other people besides he and his wife. Its messy, that's for sure. Its a complicated divorce.

I'm happy with the way things are today, and that is because I stepped back from the relationship until things are resolved and my partner knows this.

I can't change the past, so I think the best advice was to practice radical acceptance.

So I won't be using DEARMAN to communicate what I discovered to him.

If I do communicate it to him I will use humor.

[Kwamina]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. Thanks everyone who has participated here.