I'm done doing nice things.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yesterday, I was really proud of myself. BPD's "suicidal" son came over, I made dinner, and light conversation, but limited it to that. I let BPDh carry most of the conversation(awkward silences and all), and then here is where I screwed up: I gave him 10 dollars and told him take his son for ice cream. It was his choice of course. I thought this would give them alone time, and frankly, it's on BPDh to deal with his son in regards to this issue, not me.

Well, instead of walking the short distance, his son demands they go on the motorcycle. Now, just last week, BPDh came home saying a guy from work who's ridden for years said that his back tire is going to blow, and no way he'd ride that bike. BPDh has refused to ride it since then(finally, some good judgement). But because his son wants to, they hop on the bike, and I'm thinking, if it's ever going to blow, it's going to with the added weight? I give BPDh a look, and he assures me they are just going "down the street". Oh, and he also broke his promise to "always wear a helmet". They were both in short sleeves and shorts. I kept my mouth shut, but made note of another promise broken(the riding with helmet).

I decided to take a walk, and meet them there, knowing I'd probably get there just as they were finishing up and ready to get back on the bike. BPDh had mentioned he wanted pics of them on the bike. I take a nice walk, talking to my Mom on my cell most of the time. I get there, and they are not there! Of course I know I'd been lied to, YET AGAIN.

They pass me on the way back, and when I get home, I tell him I'm upset, and feel he lied to me about going "just down the street". I also mention the helmet issue, and his promise to always wear one.  I'm done covering for him. I was polite, I was respectful, but I'm done taking abuse and disrespect quietly!

I ask him to check his son's oil(his son has blown up two cars due to not putting oil in). BPDh checks the oil in his own car first(this is SO typical, him first, always), then he checks his son's car, and it's not even registering oil, or just barely is. BPDh races to put what little oil we have in his son's car, and asks his son if he has money. His son says he has like 20.00.

When we get in the house, and his son is preparing to leave, BPDh asks me if I mind if I give him the 4 dollars left over from ice cream. This is why I'm hurt and upset. I couldnt' really say "No" without looking like an a**, and BPDh knows we are broke until payday. In fact, I'd chosen to spend what little money I had left to buy groceries to make us dinner for his son, and that 10 dollars I graciously chose to give him was the last as far as BPDh knew. His son had money, and BPDh chose to give him our last money.

I'm so hurt and mad right now, because almost every time(and this is not black and white thinking, it's just true, it's nearly. every. time), I do something I consider really nice, BPDh manages to crap on it. I'd have rather they'd have spent the entire amount on ice cream then to just hand it over to his son, right after asking him if he had money, and knowing that we don't!

So, I thought I handled yesterday great, until I went "above and beyond" by trying to be "nice". It almost never works out for me. I felt good doing it, but then quickly felt rotten by finding out BPDh lied to me, risked his son's life, and then handed him over the last of our money. We've been broke since day after pay day(he has huge debts I didn't know about), and I can see why: he does really foolish, impulsive things with money. TWO weeks is a long time to be broke. My daughter graduated with her associates, walked at graduation, and we couldn't really properly celebrate!

He apologized later, but it was one of those apologies that I can tell he only gave me because he knew he had lied, and just wanted me to immediately "get over it". Integrity, honor, using good sense, and keeping his word, are no big deal to him.

I actually think his son is BPD too, but he seems to have a lot more character and integrity than my own husband. He always manages to say something nice to me, and I know he knows what his Dad is like(and his Mom). He's managed this divorce, remarriage and family blending thing with grace, and that's more than I can say about BPDh, his ex, or his grown daughters.

We have MC tonight, and I just don't want to go anymore. It's not helping. He zones out, and he expressed to me that he now feels our MC is "trying to tell him what to do", and he "hates being told what to do", in other words he feels controlled by HER too, not just me now. I have zero control of anything, don't even try to control anything(I do care about his safety though, like helmets or not driving drunk), and pretty much go along with what he wants(unless it's something I'm morally opposed to).

I realize he's likely PD, but he's also an abuser, and they don't recommend MC for abusers. Our MC, who is also my personal T, asked me if he's getting anything out of MC, and I had to honestly tell her "no", and what he'd said about him feeling controlled. She was not surprised. She doesn't really think MC is helping the "marriage" either, nor is his DBT. She thinks either has the capacity to help, but he lacks real motivation.

Oh, and he wanted sex after last night. Didn't happen. I used to just go alone, but I didn't last night. I'm not rewarded bad behavior. I feel he risked his son's life, and broke his word, nevermind his irresponsibility with the money.

I wish I'd just chosen to go for a walk solo, not given them money for ice cream, and NOT suggested BPDh check his son's oil. If he blows up car number three, within three years(he's only had this car 4 months), so be it.

I feel I screwed up, but I really didn't see how being generous could turn into something awful feeling, but again, this is a huge pattern. I think I've finally caught on. Every time I'm tempted to do something nice, I'm going to remind myself of this.

[Ceruleanblue]

Maybe things get better when you can see the humor and irony involved with BPD/NPD, or any PD.

He just came home for lunch, after not responding to a text I'd sent him. He told me he's "obviously decided to keep me", which I find pretty hilarious. My text had nothing to do with that, and I didn't ask him where his head was at about it today. I've sort of decided he's just always going to be back and forth. I want and need someone who can stay committed to the marriage, and because he can't, I don't want this marriage long term.

I deserve someone as committed to the marriage as I have been. I deserve someone who can be respectful, and kind. I'm saddened, but that is not him. He's great in some ways, but not in the ones that matter most. He treats everyone better than he treats me, and that will never feel okay.

The very day I'd sort of decided "I'm okay with if my marriage ends", he somehow senses it, even though I was keeping things light, and he lobs out there, "obviously I've decided to keep you".

That works out good for me right now, but I don't look for his "feeling" of commitment to last. I guess this is push/pull? I think though that when you no longer CARE as much, this push/pull really loses it's power for them? I'm hoping.

[Cloudy Days]

The very day I'd sort of decided "I'm okay with if my marriage ends", he somehow senses it, even though I was keeping things light, and he lobs out there, "obviously I've decided to keep you".

That works out good for me right now, but I don't look for his "feeling" of commitment to last. I guess this is push/pull? I think though that when you no longer CARE as much, this push/pull really loses it's power for them? I'm hoping.

It does lose it's power, but remember there is probably still a part of you that cares about him. I know that when I stopped chasing after my husband he switched tactics to kicking me out instead of just asking for a divorce. The other thing was he would mope a lot and go lay down in bed and he would expect me to sooth him, to see that I care about him. So he might change tactics on you. Just remember that you are the only person that has power over your actions.

I can understand how you would be frustrated with the ice cream thing, I think it boils down to if you give him money, don't expect him to honor his word about it. He's being reliable in the sense that he always acts the same, you know he's bad with money, you know he does wreckless things and you know he likes to give money to his children. So really he did what he always does, you need to figure out how to stop being surprised by it, or radical acceptance I suppose. Obviously if you stop giving him money, that would solve the fact that you are putting yourself out there to get hurt over it. Someone who is irresponsible with money in general won't make wise money choices.  Look at it like an impulse, he's not thinking of the future or consequences, just that immediate gratification. It's easier for me to accept some of the things my husband does when I look at the big picture and realize he is acting like he always has. A promise isn't something you should expect him to keep, because he never does.

[Herodias]

"I deserve someone as committed to the marriage as I have been. I deserve someone who can be respectful, and kind. I'm saddened, but that is not him. He's great in some ways, but not in the ones that matter most. He treats everyone better than he treats me, and that will never feel okay. "

Yes, you do. MC never worked for us... .went to many! It's better they go to one alone, because basically by going to the counselor, they are hoping the counselor will tell you that it's your fault and help you change. They actually say it's better to go to two different counselors. Mine always manipulated the counselors and got drugs out of the deal which made my life worse. My understanding is that DBT training for them is the best... .mine wouldn't do it.

[formflier]

CB,

Please read your story from a boundaries point of view.


Where do your hubby cross boundaries?

Where did you cross boundaries?



Hang in there!

FF

[Notwendy]

I couldnt' really say "No" without looking like an a**,

You can say no. This doesn't mean people will like it. In fact, they often don't like it. This is the cost of saying no, but saying yes when you mean no also has a cost. There may not be a way to say no and not have them look at you like an azzz,  but saying yes when you mean no, is acting like one to yourself and to them.


The problem is that you were worried about looking like an azzzz.

So, you are consistently "nice", say yes, and look what happens?

While you enjoy being "nice", saying yes, against your better judgment ( you needed the money, and even at the time could not afford the $10 for ice cream or the gas) take a look at the results. How is this working in your marriage?

In fact, giving the last of your money to them in a time of need, saying yes to the gas money, may have momentarily made you feel good to yourself "I'm such a nice person" when it really was doing them a bigger disservice in many ways: enabling your H's financial irresponsibility ( you guys are broke, but he still gets the unaffordable treat), enabling his sense of entitlement.

Keeping him from sharing the consequences of his financial responsibilities: we are in debt, there isn't any money for extras is that consequence.

He gets you in debt, and he gets your last dollar anyway. Can you see where this fosters a sense of entitlement? Imagine if he was a child who got an allowance, spent his allowance, then, you gave him money for ice cream, then he asks for more and you give it to him. In time, this child would be a spoiled tyrant. Rules, allowance, mean nothing to him, since there are not consequences to them.

"oh but I wanted to be a nice parent". Parents don't impose allowances on kids to be mean. They do it to teach them the reality of being responsible. It isn't "nice" to raise a spoiled tyrant.

At the moment of saying "no", that child may actually yell, scream, tell the parent they are mean, they hate them. But the parent who knows that saying yes is not really being nice, is going to do the right thing no matter what the child - or anyone - thinks at the moment.

I am not trying to be harsh - but perhaps you might be done doing nice things when you can see that in the grand scheme of things, they really are not nice. You are choosing to look like the nice person in the moment when, the nicest thing would be to say no. But the result of this is that it is making your H feel even more entitled- which isn't being nice to him.

There are times to be nice to someone, but there are also times when saying "yes" is actually harmful. I think it is admirable to want to do the right thing for another person, but in your H's case, that "right thing" may be to not enable his entitled, spoiled behavior.

[formflier]

 

CB,

Please watch this video.  I'm interested in your reactions and insights.

https://youtu.be/fVmbVgYgcWc


Others as well can chime in as well.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey CB, I wonder whether you are trying to control some things that are out of your control, which of course is stressful.  Perhaps you could practice letting go?  By that, I mean let go of the outcome.  Just focus on what is within your power to change.  That's my suggestion.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

 

Listen, his family is, the way his family is.

Next time they want to come over.  Wish your hubby and them a nice time and go to the library, for a walk, whatever.

Your "nice thing" is to give them space to be them,

Your gift to yourself is to give your ears space from them.

Come home, give hubby a hug and swat on the butt and playfully invite him  to go do something with you.  Don't ask about the dinner.

If he brings it up, validate.   NO ADVICE, EVER.  If he asks, validate, and tell him you need time to consider. 

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Oh, I'd love to clear out when his son comes over, but BPDh would be really angry if I did so. He's take it as "you don't want to be around my son". I hear a lot of "my kids", "my son", "my daughters", "my money"... .you get the point.

I actually really like his son, more than I do BPDh at this point. His son deals with anxiety and severe depression, and likely has a PD, but at least he tries to be kinder. He seems to seek help more, and take more responsibility(as far as I can see). I've learned though that those with PD's can hide things from others, so who knows.

His son coming over is sort of a "no win" situation. I'm expected to be there, because BPDh counts on ME to interact, because he himself has trouble communicating. I think he uses me as a buffer, almost?

I just keep telling myself that this isn't forever, and that I now know I'm going to leave at some point. That makes a lot of this a lot easier. I'm in a much better place right now.

[formflier]

  but BPDh would be really angry if I did so.

Please explain why this matters?

There are other good threads on here about "who is in charge of their emotions".

Glad you are in a better place, would really like to see you work on "logically" sorting through some of the "structure" of your r/s.  Two outcomes.  RA and be at peace or strength to make changes.

What has changed that has gotten you to a better place?



FF

[Skip]

I just keep telling myself that this isn't forever, and that I now know I'm going to leave at some point. That makes a lot of this a lot easier. I'm in a much better place right now.

If you're just done and waiting for the right time - if you don't have any more desire to improve or feel completely defeated, it's time to let go.

Don't try to manage the oil in his sons car.

Don't try to manage what they wear on the bike.

I want and need someone who can stay committed to the marriage, and because he can't, I don't want this marriage long term.  I deserve someone as committed to the marriage as I have been. I deserve someone who can be respectful, and kind. I'm saddened, but that is not him.

There is a cycle of erosion that can go on in a marriage - the "he needs to do better by me", "she needs to do better by me" before I'm going to do anything to make this seriously better. It all becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Are you there? Where are you in these 4 stages:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[Ceruleanblue]

I just skimmed the link, but it's very, very similar to John Gottman's four horses in a relationship. I love John Gottman's research on relationships, and really like his books and findings. I'll read the entire link when BPDh ins't lurking, and I have time to think and consider.

I do know I'm done thinking I can stay in this long term, as I've done a lot of radical acceptance(of his PD, but not the outright abuse, I refuse to just accept that), work on myself, owned my part(which has mostly been codependence and allowing him to treat me this way), worked on boundaries, and learned all I can about PD's and anger.

Basically, I can't do it for him, and we are unequally matched because I won't sink to his level, and I want to be healthy and happy, and he is "unmotived" as our MC stated. I feel he can behave better, but feels entitle to his rage, and isn't working even in his DBT therapy.

I know I'll leave at some point, and am not expecting change so am just trying to stay respectful to him, not reactive, and maintain the status quo. If he suddenly starts behaving better, I'll reevaluate. and meet him half way. I'm just not expecting that to happen. He is what he is, short of any effort to be happier or healthier(behavior wise).

Knowing I found my line in the sand, actually feels great. I'm here, but I know it's not my "forever" relationship. I've switched focus in my head. Hopefully, come fall, I'll be in college full time, and on my way to a brighter future, even if that's alone. I'm fine with that.

I'll post later about where I think I am on those four points... .

[Lucky Jim]

Basically, I can't do it for him, and we are unequally matched because I won't sink to his level, and I want to be healthy and happy, and he is "unmotived" as our MC stated. I feel he can behave better, but feels entitle to his rage, and isn't working even in his DBT therapy.

Hey Herodias, Sounds like you have gained awareness and perspective on your predicament.  The next question, of course, is what keeps you from leaving your H?  Tough question, I know.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

So, how are you going to figure out if you are staying or going?  Is there a trigger you have identified?  If he does X I will do Y?

Trying to figure out (from your post) how you figure out the future of your r/s.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks for reminding me of the Four Horsemen article.  I can look back and pick out examples of each of the four - though my path oscillated up and down the scale. 

I remember a point a while ago in which I caught myself saying to myself that I'm just waiting for the next stop, and I'll get off the crazy train.

[Herodias]

"Hey Herodias, Sounds like you have gained awareness and perspective on your predicament.  The next question, of course, is what keeps you from leaving your H?  Tough question, I know."

Lucky Jim, I have left... .after 9 years together I get divorced next week... .It has been utterly exhausting.

[Lucky Jim]

Sorry, I misunderstood you, Herodias.  I have been down this path before you.  Separated after 13 years with my BPD Ex; now divorced.  It is exhausting, so take good care of yourself.  Cut yourself some slack, is my suggestion, and allow the feelings to pass through you.  There is no particular timetable and its OK to go slowly.  I can confirm that there is life after a BPD r/s.  Hang in there,

LuckyJim

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I have to disagree with the part about just saying neither of us is doing anything to "make things better". I HAVE. I've radically accepted he will always have BPD/NPD, but I will not just accept outright abuse. Sexual, or otherwise.

I have done a lot of self work, and have been in and out of therapy our entire marriage, and before. I was in a really good place when I met him, and I'm feeling like I'm back to that place. I have read and learned the tools here, but sadly, most of them didn't improve OUR marriage. BPD runs the spectrum, and he's a bad case apparently.

There's a fine line between doing things to "make things better", and just letting someone abuse you to keep the peace, or because you fear them. I've perfected walking away, trying not to JADE, and myriad other things I've read, but he'll always find a reason to be angry at me, or demand demeaning hurtful sex, or just turn nasty. Sure, I can refuse, or walk away from his anger, but it's still something I have to deal with on some level, or at least be around until I can walk away.

For now, I really don't feel we have much of a marriage. I'm committed to him, and will be faithful, but I know I have to leave at some point, or perhaps one day he'll actually follow through on one of his almost daily threats, and really be done.

If I could financially support myself right now, and wasn't looking at going back to school, I'd just leave now. I've given up all hope that WE can make things better, because as our MC said, BPDh is "unmotivated". He's not even working his DBT the way he should be, and I refuse to him him with his journaling he's supposed to be doing for his DBT.

He treats me like he hates me at times, and it doesn't even hurt me anymore, I'm just sick of it. All I wanted was the man he pretended to be. All I wanted was a marriage where we both amended our behaviors as needed, and both took responsibility. As it is, he lumps it all on ME, and I can't keep changing myself to suit him. He's never happy even when I do, so why keep doing it?

I'm here, and I'm trying to uphold some boundaries. He still views boundaries as "punishment", and I no longer care. He can view it however he wants. My boundaries are meant to protect me, and I know that, and that's enough.

I'm not sure what the last straw will be. We are already so disconnected(his choosing, and me more recently for self preservation), that the loss of the marriage will hurt, but won't feel like losing someone I have a huge connection with, or someone that really loves me. He loves himself more than he could ever love me. His love is selfish, and to me, that isn't love. Love shouldn't hurt.

[MaybeSo]

CB, the tuff thing about this thread that two senior people touched on, and that got lost in all the content... .and that you maybe are not seeing yet... .is that your stance as described here, is a controlling stance.

Your anger when things did not go the way you wanted them to... .is the anger of a controlling, codependent stance... ."after everything I do for you... .this is what I get?" 

That's like the codependents anthem.

Let go of the focus on others.   This is your work.  Take care of your own boundaries, which means you stop looking at what others are doing and turn your focus onto how you are going to manage yourself.

Look to sooth yourself with the expectation that others are not like you, nor should they be.  A wise psychologist named Al Turtle has a saying... ."all people are disobedient, get use to it".  Also, "if two people are agreeing a lot, someone is lying". 

What you describe here wasn't really nice.  It was controlling. 

Skip and FF were spot on.  When you really get this, it will be a huge shift for you... .and it is a shift that will be empowering and life changing for you.

Let go of controlling others, better yet, be open to seeing how your stance is a controlling stance.

You will always be supported here in NOT accepting abuse.  Nothing about radical acceptance or giving up control or codependence or any of the skills here are about accepting abuse.  It's important that you really understand that.   By getting healthier and less controlling and less other focused... .you are not more open to abuse, but less.  You have everyone's complete support here to take care of yourself and take control of your own life so that abuse is not a part of it.   

If you choose to stay, you are choosing to be in a relational field with a person whom you describe as abusive, where the two of you interact together in the relational field... .and the only part of the interaction you can control is your part.  Not his.  Your part here was a controlling stance, which is not healthy and adds more negativity and dysfunction to the relational field, and if part of the relational field is controlling and part of it is abusive, the combination together creates it's own special dysfunctional creation and it has a lot of volatility.  Your part, your contribution, is the only part you in your control to improve upon.  You only have control over you so that is the where your focus should be.  Just your part getting healthier... .changes things for you for the better and it also changes the relational field for the better.

Let go of focusing on others.

[earlgrey]

I just keep telling myself that this isn't forever, and that I now know I'm going to leave at some point. That makes a lot of this a lot easier. I'm in a much better place right now.

with you all the way - even with the step kids.

I'm planning on getting out after the summer... . *

We'll get through the summer holidays, plenty of time to work on my 'stuff' then action time. 

'

*(Had a friend who worked at Club Med on a beach somewhere. Food was good 'social' life the best but the job was awful. He could never manage to get himself to leave because there was always something in the wash (like clothes in the washing machine)... .just saying... .great plans have a habit of getting sidetracked by incidentals!

[earlgrey]

So, how are you going to figure out if you are staying or going?  Is there a trigger you have identified?  If he does X I will do Y?


FF

apologies for butting in... .

Can I try to answer... .trick question I'd say.

Trying to break away needs to be OUR decision (this question is where I am too).

I leave because they do something I don't like is reactive, and would seem to me to be a subordinate type decision.

Coming to terms with a r/s that is not working needs to be felt and lived and understood.

Sometimes I watch my W do horrible things and I say to myself ha! I'm right, she's... .whatever. I am right to want to leave.

But these feelings do not originate in me. I want ME to be filled with my own emotional energy, anger, desire to do something about my life and decide change.

I am trying to build the emotional energy I need.

[formflier]

Coming to terms with a r/s that is not working needs to be felt and lived and understood.

This is a wonderful statement.   And probably for most people in most relationships, this is way it should play out.  You "just know it".  I would say this is "subjective".


The point I was trying to make, is to ask Ceruleanblue, for an "objective" way to determine she is going to leave, or if that was possible.

Such as, if he hits me 3 more times... .I'm gone on the third time... .no matter what else is going on.  I'm not suggesting that is the proper decision, just an example. 

Or, perhaps there will be no trigger, Ceruleanblue will decide one day that it feels wrong and she is out of there. 

For Ceruleanblue and others struggling with figuring out what to control or perhaps who to control (please reread MaybeSos post)

The question is particularly important, because it focuses your energy on controlling you, controlling, owning and deciding things for you.


All that being said, I think earlgrey's statement is worth repeating.  This is a reason why self-care and time alone to focus on, own and feel (vice run from) your own feelings is really important.  I'll digress into pilot speak.  I tend to look at feelings as a "caution light" on the panel of my plane.  "FF feels angry".  Hmmm... .that's something I should pay attention to, investigate further and be honest about.  Yep... there really is a light on my panel.

Just like in an airplane... .if you ignore the hydraulic low light for a long time... .you may run out of hydraulics.  If you don't have fluid to be able to control your airplane... .disaster will follow.

If you ignore your feelings for a long time... .or run from them... .or project them onto someone else (blame others)... .not good for you.

Thanks Earlgrey.  Your words particularly apply to me this morning as I sit with my feelings about where my r/s is at.

Coming to terms with a r/s that is not working needs to be felt and lived and understood.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

The point I was trying to make, is to ask Ceruleanblue, for an "objective" way to determine she is going to leave, or if that was possible.

Such as, if he hits me 3 more times... .I'm gone on the third time... .no matter what else is going on.  I'm not suggesting that is the proper decision, just an example.  

Or, perhaps there will be no trigger, Ceruleanblue will decide one day that it feels wrong and she is out of there.  

For Ceruleanblue and others struggling with figuring out what to control or perhaps who to control (please reread MaybeSos post)

The question is particularly important, because it focuses your energy on controlling you, controlling, owning and deciding things for you.



When I finally drew a line in the sand about leaving my first marriage, I had two criteria that I determined (but didn't tell him) that would cause me to leave him forever. They were: another incident of infidelity or physical violence.

When he threw something at me and chased me down the driveway in the dark, that was it. I was done. And I've never regretted for a minute that decision, only that I didn't make it years earlier.

Wonderful post, MaybeSo! Thanks.

[ArleighBurke]

"the anger of a controlling, codependent stance"

Is it? I see the anger being more a feeling of LOSS. That we SEE what our partners are doing, despite all the promises, conversatuions, reasoning and common sense - and just feel a LOSS. We feel a longing for what SHOULD be.

Is that trying to control? In a way - yes! But it is OUR lives too. It is OUR marriages, OUR happiness - and we SHOULD have a level of control over that.

Accepting them, accepting the life we currently have, even accepting our role is required - we need to truely SEE what is there. But then we can choose to continue living it, or to move in a different direction. That is not about controlling THEM - that is about making healthy, informed choices for ourselves.

[Herodias]

"the anger of a controlling, codependent stance"

Is it? I see the anger being more a feeling of LOSS. That we SEE what our partners are doing, despite all the promises, conversatuions, reasoning and common sense - and just feel a LOSS. We feel a longing for what SHOULD be.

Is that trying to control? In a way - yes! But it is OUR lives too. It is OUR marriages, OUR happiness - and we SHOULD have a level of control over that.

Accepting them, accepting the life we currently have, even accepting our role is required - we need to truely SEE what is there. But then we can choose to continue living it, or to move in a different direction. That is not about controlling THEM - that is about making healthy, informed choices for ourselves.

I agree... .In some ways I felt too controlling, but come on... .how can you not want to control some of the ridiculous behavior. In that case I suppose it is best to walk away instead of trying to control. Control doesn't work anyway. People all need to stand up and decide how they want to live their lives. It's awfully hard to live with someone under normal conditions, let alone with someone irrational.

[Cat Familiar]

In some ways I felt too controlling, but come on... .how can you not want to control some of the ridiculous behavior. In that case I suppose it is best to walk away instead of trying to control. Control doesn't work anyway. People all need to stand up and decide how they want to live their lives. It's awfully hard to live with someone under normal conditions, let alone with someone irrational.

Word!

[MaybeSo]

: ArleighBurke on June 26, 2016, 10:20:07 PM

"the anger of a controlling, codependent stance"

Is it? I see the anger being more a feeling of LOSS.

It's a good question and a good thing to explore issues of control.  My own personal experience and what I often see, is that those who are exhibiting control dynamics in a relationship are almost never in a position (at first) where they can see or recognize their own controlling behaviors or controlling energy.  This is so often the case that it is almost just to be expected.

That has my been my personal experience (meaning I recognize now that I can and do try to control others when I am other focused... .and so I have to work to keep my focus on managing myself and will have to do that work for the rest of my life)  and the research I've done into such issues seems to confirm that this is very often the case for most folks who have relationship troubles. 

In this respect, as I understand it, control is used not the way we most often think of it, such as ... ."he took my car keys, he wouldn't let me leave the house, she forbid me from seeing my freinds" ... .but in a more subtle form, which is one reason why it's hard to see it in ourselves, because most of us don't use those kind of obvious control tactics.   

(Also it's just easier to see where others are messed up and very hard to truly see our own deficits, that's just the way it goes.)   

But, for most folks the kind of control we are talking about, that is part of codependent dynamics, is about needing someone to change or act or behave a certain way and acting as if we are not capable of managing our own anxiety or feeling states unless they do what we need them to do... .go buy ice cream with our nice offered money, stop riding motorcycles w/out a helmet, stop doing this, start doing that, etc. etc.   A less controlling stance would be staying in an observer role, feeling your feelings and OWNING them... .including intense anxiety, loss, sadness, grief, frustration... .and maintaining a focus on your own self-care including managing whatever feelings come up... .rather than continuing to put energy (through argument, complaint, blame, etc.) about what another person is or isn't doing. 

When we believe we cannot be at rest or complete or happy or at ease... .unless or until another person ("other focused" acts a certain way or stops acting a certain way... .we WILL act on that belief in ways that ARE controlling.  That's how it goes.  Other focused energy is controlling energy.   This is just how it goes.  The dependency in co-dependency is fueled by the felt sense and supporting belief (usually from childhood) that our internal well being depends or is dependent on another person's behaviors and what they are or are or are not doing and that we need them to behave a certain way to feel at ease within ourselves. 

That IS a dependency, and it keeps me feeling powerless unless I can change that person's behavior somehow, usually through a lot of complaining and blaming.  Stop doing what you are doing because it makes me feel xyz and I don't want to feel xyz, so stop it.  That is other focused control.    It is in this context that I commented on the dynamic as described in this thread.  It's not meant to judge, and if it is not your work to do or you do not resonate with this,  then by all means,  set it aside.  But, my understanding is that a focus on "other"  almost always results in other focused controlling energy. That has been my experience, other's experience may be different. 

[Cat Familiar]

MaybeSo, again, another beautiful summation of a very convoluted issue. Thank you! 

[ArleighBurke]

When we believe we cannot be at rest or complete or happy or at ease... .unless or until another person ("other focused" acts a certain way or stops acting a certain way... .we WILL act on that belief in ways that ARE controlling.

The dependency in co-dependency is fueled by the felt sense and supporting belief (usually from childhood) that our internal well being depends or is dependent on another person's behaviors and what they are or are or are not doing and that we need them to behave a certain way to feel at ease within ourselves.  

That IS a dependency, and it keeps me feeling powerless unless I can change that person's behavior somehow, usually through a lot of complaining and blaming.  Stop doing what you are doing because it makes me feel xyz and I don't want to feel xyz, so stop it.

How is this different to:

I can look after my own emotional wellbeing. I am responsible for my own feelings. But I am not happy living in this environment. They can do whatever they want - I would prefer they acted better, but I know I can't control that. I'm angry/sad/conflicted because I am being forced to decide whether to accept this person as part of my life or not.