Part 3: Feeling a bit weird

[Longterm]

Mod Note:
Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339053.0
Part 2 of this thread is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339281.0

Okay.  I am okay that you are not okay right now.  I know from talking with you that you will be and when you are ready, you'll come back out.  

The shame I felt Thursday night was extremely horrible, I did not want to be anywhere near myself again. I was not planning on coming "back out" until Monday at the earliest but I had what I can only describe as a groundbreaking therapy session friday morning. I feel compelled to keep writing all this down, so I have come out of my hole early.

 Maybe it was a combination of things.  Sometimes there are so many layers to why we are the way we are.  What you mentioned can certainly do it.  I know part of it for me was that when I was myself, other people got hurt and suffered for it.  If I got in trouble my mother punished herself and by doing so punished not just her, but me and my father and brother.  I was responsible for others hurting just by being myself.  Does that part resonate?

Yes it does, there were direct consequences for anything said or done, I learned to caretaker others emotions from a very early age. I still do this to this day and it has been highlighted for me and is very detrimental to me.

 When someone is open to hearing us though and even challenges us back?  Beautiful things can happen.  

Yes, I agree asking the questions open the doors I feel, the processing of emotions can be scary yet necessary.

 It certainly sounds similar now that you mention it.  I was not making that connection before.  Do you want to explore this core feeling of fear you have?  If you do, I am in!  Fear is at the center of so much for me and I am still sorting it out.

I am in too! Therapy does not really consist of talking about my ex anymore, I have been more focused on my FOO as it's called. I asked mary to honestly tell me what her analysis of my family is and her response left me speechless. She said SWSNBN was more than likely a psychopath, that's pretty crazy right? I have limited information on my biological but mary thinks he was possibly NPD. She cannot make her mind up with my mother but is strongly leaning towards BPD. My brothers? 1 a definite sociopath, the other NPD, not to forget my schizophrenic brother. So I'm sitting there thinking ok...I was right, my core emotion is fear, she said I am drenched in it and yes, it does control me. Obviously mary doesn't know these people but I have discussed their behaviours and traits in more detail with her, I again asked her what she thinks is wrong with me and her response blew my mind. She said "nothing apart from trauma", I said "yes, but how do you know for sure?" Then she said "because your the scapegoat child"... she told me to read up on it, I haven't yet but she said the scapegoat is the voice of reason and common sense, the scapegoat is the one that goes to therapy and disowns his/her own family, the one that can see the dysfunction and is confused and frustrated by it. I do not know what to say, I really dont, I always thought I was maybe the golden child, how wrong was I. So, so much has fell into place the last few days its unbelievable. My relationships with many are making sense now. Mary said me thinking I was golden child is wishful thinking, she said "deep down you know the truth, it's just painful for you and that's ok". It wasnt all shocking, she said under the circumstances I have done very, very well and i need to keep going in the same direction, to make a new family of people who are like me and it will be a long road ahead, I need to tell myself EVERY day that i am worthy, not defective and im lovable because I've been made to believe the opposite all my life. She said i came to the conclusion that there is something wrong with my ex and because of learned behaviour, i blamed myself and thought i was the problem, THEN i learned better, now that I am exploring my family I have been doing the same with them too, i am NOT the problem. No wonder my core emotion is fear growing up in that crap, my inner critic is holding me back, mary said I can and WILL break free. Harritell me about your fear if you dont mind, let's discuss this in some real depth, I am glad my gut feeling was correct.

 Thanks for this more hopeful view.

You are welcome  

 You are safe now LT.  What happened to you, whatever was done to you, is in the past.  When you are ready, talk about these events so you can name them and then work on healing.  Walking with the excruciating images and thoughts bottled up inside has to be holding you down and back.  You do not need to carry that stuff any more LT and you do not need to examine it alone either.

I felt that low friday morning I thought, what the hell, just tell mary, so I did. I have failed in my thinking that I would shock this woman, she doesn't even flinch whilst I bare my soul to her, she just sat there and told me it was ok and that it was not my fault. It was not just a brother but SWSNBN too. I mean is mary made out of steel? I have made a cousin cry in the past and i was only talking surface deep stuff then. Mary is very empathetic and i find her very calming yet here i am not being able to look at her, covering my face, sweating etc and shes calm as a cucumber? Anyway, i came out of our session extremely uplifted and light, she has the power to make me feel amazing and look at what she said? How could that make me happy? I appreciate your words as usual, I think this place, therapy and my journaling is helping me to change my perspectives a great deal. I cannot believe I walked out of therapy a while back when mary told me I blame myself for everything, she was spot on and I'm embarrassed to look at my petulance. It is my role to take the blame and that's why that has happened, sorry to waffle on but just wow I guess, I see these as life altering realisations.

LT.

[Harri]

I have such mad respect for you LT.  Not that you need it mind you.  Every dang time you rise above and meet or exceed what reality is demanding from you and you do it with honesty, vulnerability, strength and a raw power and emotion combined with a rational and logical mind.   

The shame I felt Thursday night was extremely horrible, I did not want to be anywhere near myself again. I was not planning on coming "back out" until Monday at the earliest but I had what I can only describe as a groundbreaking therapy session friday morning. I feel compelled to keep writing all this down, so I have come out of my hole early.

Good.  Thank you for keeping us updated too.  I was wondering how your session went with Mary (I assume you go every Friday ;) )

There are few times on this board where I think the word psychopath or even sociopath truly fits the persons we talk about here ... I think SWSNBN is one of them though I have a rudimentary understanding of what it actually means.  Sadistic has crossed my mind when thinking of her, again, not that I am an in a position to say.  Yes, crazy, all of it.  You survived and that is testament to you and your inner strength LT.  There is nothing weak about you.  Honor little LT for what he coped with and how he coped and honor yourself for having done so very well.

Then she said "because your the scapegoat child"... she told me to read up on it, I haven't yet but she said the scapegoat is the voice of reason and common sense, the scapegoat is the one that goes to therapy and disowns his/her own family, the one that can see the dysfunction and is confused and frustrated by it.

I think you can take Mary's assessment of what is wrong with you (nothing, 'just' trauma) as accurate truth.   Yes, scapegoats tend to get the more obvious and often violent abuse but are the ones who tend fight back and get help.

Mary said me thinking I was golden child is wishful thinking, she said "deep down you know the truth, it's just painful for you and that's ok".

How do you feel about this now, a day later?  What are you looking at that makes you think you were the golden child?

Longterm, you are worthy, you are lovable and you are not defective.  You are strong and getting even stronger (have to add that in here).

No wonder my core emotion is fear growing up in that crap, my inner critic is holding me back, mary said I can and WILL break free. Harri tell me about your fear if you dont mind, let's discuss this in some real depth, I am glad my gut feeling was correct.

Yes, you can and you will break free.  I am glad to jump in to discuss fear with you.  I think you should start the discussion though.  I don't mind talking about my fear I just don't know what you want to know about it?  What I fear?  How it holds me back and paralyzes me at times?  Where it stems from?

I felt that low friday morning I thought, what the hell, just tell mary, so I did. I have failed in my thinking that I would shock this woman, she doesn't even flinch whilst I bare my soul to her, she just sat there and told me it was ok and that it was not my fault. It was not just a brother but SWSNBN too. I mean is mary made out of steel? I have made a cousin cry in the past and i was only talking surface deep stuff then. Mary is very empathetic and i find her very calming yet here i am not being able to look at her, covering my face, sweating etc and shes calm as a cucumber? Anyway, i came out of our session extremely uplifted and light, she has the power to make me feel amazing and look at what she said? How could that make me happy? I appreciate your words as usual, I think this place, therapy and my journaling is helping me to change my perspectives a great deal. I cannot believe I walked out of therapy a while back when mary told me I blame myself for everything, she was spot on and I'm embarrassed to look at my petulance. It is my role to take the blame and that's why that has happened, sorry to waffle on but just wow I guess, I see these as life altering realisations.

Mary is a very skilled professional LT.  I have had counselors cry at some of the easy stuff I talked about and all it did was shut me down.  She is not made of stone, rather she has good boundaries, is differentiated and highly trained.   She is wonderful.  None of what happened to you was your fault LT.  You did not cause it.  You did not deserve it.   When you think of your brother and SWSNBN violating you, how do you see yourself? 

As for you walking out of therapy at the beginning?    It is okay to feel embarrassed.  I bet some day you will look back on that day and smile though.  Never forget that day.  You said you already used that experience to help you through a tough time.  That experience, as tough as it was and as much as you may regret it, is already paying off.  In spades.

 

[Longterm]

I have such mad respect for you LT.  Not that you need it mind you.  Every dang time you rise above and meet or exceed what reality is demanding from you and you do it with honesty, vulnerability, strength and a raw power and emotion combined with a rational and logical mind. 

I am trying and although it is very upsetting, I cant seem to stop right now. Thank you 

  Good.  Thank you for keeping us updated too.  I was wondering how your session went with Mary (I assume you go every Friday ;) )

Yes, and I dont mind keeping you updated, mary thinks this place is really good for me although she does not know what support group I have.

  There are few times on this board where I think the word psychopath or even sociopath truly fits the persons we talk about here ... I think SWSNBN is one of them though I have a rudimentary understanding of what it actually means.  Sadistic has crossed my mind when thinking of her, again, not that I am an in a position to say.  Yes, crazy, all of it.  You survived and that is testament to you and your inner strength LT.  There is nothing weak about you.  Honor little LT for what he coped with and how he coped and honor yourself for having done so very well.

Yes, she was very sadistic with zero remorse. I have spoke about her in great detail with mary as I have my immediate family too. Mary is convinced, she called her a "matriarchal psychopath". They are strong words yet I dont feel that I could honestly disagree, she was pure evil, her own mother called her the devils daughter. With regards to my parents, I have no good memories of my dad, all memories are violence/fear, he did not like me, he was only interested in my oldest brother, there are other things so I can see where mary is coming from. I am still knee deep in emotions surrounding my mom, the more I think about it, the more I see many similarities with my ex. There were other things that went on with my mom, mary has a knack of dragging these things out of me, other abuse that did not involve SWSNBN. It is horrible to say but I think my mom made me feel responsible for her emotions too. Mary asked "did you tell anybody about the abuse from your brother?" I said yes, I told my mom. Mary had to ask what the reply was, it wasnt good and I have always felt incredibly guilty for placing this burden on my mom, for giving her this information. This was in the build up to my suicide attempt and I also felt guilty for what I was told was "attention seeking". Mary told me I was reaching out, that I DID need attention for something that WASNT my fault, but I did not get it and that's NOT my fault. I instantly felt the guilt lift, it felt amazing. Like I said, I have shared much more with mary, mary is in agreement with you Harri she thinks my mom is far from innocent. She looked at me and said "it hurts you doesn't it? Her betrayal is deeply painful to you and I see the sadness within you". I think that's accurate, i am starting to feel betrayed, i believe this is why i have been feeling abandoned? Just expanding on my feelings here.

  I think you can take Mary's assessment of what is wrong with you (nothing, 'just' trauma) as accurate truth.   Yes, scapegoats tend to get the more obvious and often violent abuse but are the ones who tend fight back and get help. 

This is fundamental for me I feel. I have spent my whole life thinking that if theres something wrong, it must be my fault, this is why I keep asking mary what is wrong with me, in my thought processes their MUST be. I need to fight this and question my perceptions. Being scapegoat was the biggest realisation for me. I cannot deny it, I have ALWAYS been the voice of reason. This is going to sound like I'm bigging myself up but I'm honestly not. A LOT of people have said to me that I am the more together, switched on brother. Before my stepdad died, he put me in charge of his whole estate, his reason being he knew i would respect his wishes, which i did. My brothers hated it and as punishment, they scattered my mom and dads ashes without me. This was the straw that broke the camels back, i have not spoke to them since and have no intention to. I had "lectured" them many times about their values and morals but mary put this in place too. My values and morals do NOT match those of my family, or my ex. We are simply not compatible people, the very foundation of good relationships are missing and i never saw it like this. I have often asked why I'm not like them and theres my answer, values, morals and more importantly, empathy. This is why I have been treated with contempt by my family and my ex, I am everybody's scapegoat, to them I'm the broken one because I will not accept their warped reality and I have driven myself to the point of severe depression trying to fix and save them, folly, we are different.

How do you feel about this now, a day later?  What are you looking at that makes you think you were the golden child? 

Because I was shown bits of "love" here and there, also maybe it's hard to see the reality, to accept, remember me saying we can all BS ourselves? I honestly feel like I have found my place, I would rather be the voice of reason than live in my continued denial to think I was cared about.

  Longterm, you are worthy, you are lovable and you are not defective.  You are strong and getting even stronger (have to add that in here).

I said to mary a few weeks back "why am I the weak and sensitive one and everybody else is abusive and strong?" She told me point blank that's BS and highlights my low self esteem, she said I'm much stronger than I think. Thank you for highlighting my strength too, feels odd to say but I'm trying.

  Yes, you can and you will break free.  I am glad to jump in to discuss fear with you.  I think you should start the discussion though.  I don't mind talking about my fear I just don't know what you want to know about it?  What I fear?  How it holds me back and paralyzes me at times?  Where it stems from?

I want to know everything about your experience with fear (I'm nosy) and others, this is key for me and you. I will start a thread tomorrow and will be happy to discuss this with members.

  Mary is a very skilled professional LT.  I have had counselors cry at some of the easy stuff I talked about and all it did was shut me down.  She is not made of stone, rather she has good boundaries, is differentiated and highly trained.   She is wonderful.  None of what happened to you was your fault LT.  You did not cause it.  You did not deserve it.   When you think of your brother and SWSNBN violating you, how do you see yourself?  

Yes, she is awesome. I see myself as helpless and vulnerable. Oh hold on, I just realised I felt some emotion and empathy for little LT, that's progress right?

  As for you walking out of therapy at the beginning?    It is okay to feel embarrassed.  I bet some day you will look back on that day and smile though.  Never forget that day.  You said you already used that experience to help you through a tough time.  That experience, as tough as it was and as much as you may regret it, is already paying off.  In spades.

I sincerely hope so, thank you again 

LT.

[Harri]

Oh hold on, I just realised I felt some emotion and empathy for little LT, that's progress right?

That is huge and yes, it is progress!   Build on this.  Can you see him in your mind still?  If you can, how does he look to you?  Different than before?  Same?

Yes, and I dont mind keeping you updated, mary thinks this place is really good for me although she does not know what support group I have.

Good and thank you.  BTW, this site is actually listed as a reference site by the NHS.  Not sure if you knew that or not.  I am glad she knows you are getting support online.  I hope you check in with her about what we talk about here too.  I don't want to steer you wrong or away from where she is taking you (not that you would let me! heh heh)

With regards to my parents, I have no good memories of my dad, all memories are violence/fear, he did not like me, he was only interested in my oldest brother, there are other things so I can see where mary is coming from.

Have you shared those things with Mary?  If not, please talk, either with her or here.  Whatever those things are, the shame is not yours.

I am still knee deep in emotions surrounding my mom, the more I think about it, the more I see many similarities with my ex. There were other things that went on with my mom, mary has a knack of dragging these things out of me, other abuse that did not involve SWSNBN.

That makes sense actually LT.  I am not saying anything against your mom, at least I do not mean to.  I would find it very hard to believe that your mom grew up with SWSNBN without some of her own dysfunction on some level.  I know I did not with my own parents and I do not think they were as bad as SWSNBN.  How long did you all live with her?

It is horrible to say but I think my mom made me feel responsible for her emotions too.

Are you familiar with the terms emotional incest and parentification?  Many of us experienced that here.

Mary asked "did you tell anybody about the abuse from your brother?" I said yes, I told my mom. Mary had to ask what the reply was, it wasnt good and I have always felt incredibly guilty for placing this burden on my mom, for giving her this information. This was in the build up to my suicide attempt and I also felt guilty for what I was told was "attention seeking". Mary told me I was reaching out, that I DID need attention for something that WASNT my fault, but I did not get it and that's NOT my fault.

I am so sorry your mom failed you and betrayed you in that way too LT.  You were and are worthy of so much better than what you got.  

Do you want to talk about when you attempted suicide LT?

I instantly felt the guilt lift, it felt amazing. Like I said, I have shared much more with mary, mary is in agreement with you Harri she thinks my mom is far from innocent. She looked at me and said "it hurts you doesn't it? Her betrayal is deeply painful to you and I see the sadness within you". I think that's accurate, i am starting to feel betrayed, i believe this is why i have been feeling abandoned? Just expanding on my feelings here.

Yes, I think betrayal and abandonment walk together, perhaps cloaked by shame and fear and as your shame is lifting and the fear begins to dissipate even a little bit, you are able to cast aside some of the blame and see you and little LT and the very justified feelings of betrayal and abandonment can be more readily accessed.  

This is fundamental for me I feel. I have spent my whole life thinking that if theres something wrong, it must be my fault ... My values and morals do NOT match those of my family, or my ex. We are simply not compatible people, the very foundation of good relationships are missing and i never saw it like this. ...  I have often asked why I'm not like them and theres my answer, values, morals and more importantly, empathy. This is why I have been treated with contempt by my family and my ex, I am everybody's scapegoat, to them I'm the broken one because I will not accept their warped reality and I have driven myself to the point of severe depression trying to fix and save them, folly, we are different.

Yes, you are different.  Their feelings, expectations and beliefs are not defining you and you are free to see yourself as you are.  I know being different from them set you up for a lot of horrific abuse LT... but I am so thankful you are so different and are fighting for yourself.  

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi, LT,

I'm typing on my phone so I am not going to attempt to quote, but I just wanted to say a few things.

First, you are doing such great work in T and here, and it takes a lot of strength to search for the answers as you are. I believe that it will definitely be life changing for you, and I am here cheering for you with each layer that you peel back and each breakthrough you experience.

I also got the impression that SWSNBN was a psychopath. From the research I've done, sociopath and psychopath are informal terms for someone who has Antisocial Personality Disorder. Sociopaths are described as having a conscience, albeit a weak one, while a psychopath is thought to have no conscience. ASPD exists on a spectrum, as does BPD, and psychopath is the term used to refer to those at the extreme end, though these terms are not clinical.

I think perhaps you aligned as a child with your mother as a fellow victim of SWSNBN, and that was probably a survival strategy that helped you feel not completely alone. No doubt, as harri mentioned, your mother did suffer psychological damage from being raised by a parent like that. However, the truth is that she was an adult at the time you were being abused, and adults have choices- even traumatized, psychologically damaged adults. You were not responsible for her. She was responsible for you. There may be reasons why she could not make the proper choices she needed to make, but she was still responsible for the choices. She was neither totally innocent nor completely guilty, the truth is somewhere in the middle, and that will probably take some time for you to sort that out and reconcile within yourself. That's OK and is to be expected.

As for you being weak and sensitive while you view the abusive as strong- well. It takes much more courage to face the demons of your family history head on than to deny them or use them as a reason to bully and intimidate others.

Mary sounds totally awesome. I think it takes a lot of empathy and emotional intelligence to be an effective trauma therapist. I think probably nothing you can say would be too much for her. A person who has become an effective trauma therapist certainly knows the nature of the issues their clients may have- it's trauma, after all. No one goes to that kind of therapy because they once dropped an ice cream in the third grade, or something.

You are an inspiration, LT, and I just thought you should be told that.

[JNChell]

Hi again, LT. I have to say that it’s great to see the progress and awareness that you’re achieving. As the others have conveyed, much respect to you my friend. Harri has hit on something that I’ve found to be true from experience, research and interactions here. The scapegoat is a fighter. We fight for ourselves and our salvation. We refuse to conform to that which isn’t true. Our inner child needs us and is constantly tugging at our sleeve to see and hear them.

Mary seems to be turning out to be a true advocate for you on your healing path. This is good to know. I’m happy for you.

You’re fielding a lot at once, LT. I hope that you can recognize just how strong you are. Many people crumble under the weight that you’re shouldering. You’re doing great.

I wanted to stop by and offer you support. Keep your heels dug in. You’re doing great.

[Longterm]

 

  That is huge and yes, it is progress!   Build on this.  Can you see him in your mind still?  If you can, how does he look to you?  Different than before?  Same?

Yes I can, he looks scared and helpless, worse than before. Mary said I need to bridge the gap and talk to him but only when ready.

  Good and thank you.  BTW, this site is actually listed as a reference site by the NHS.  Not sure if you knew that or not.  I am glad she knows you are getting support online.  I hope you check in with her about what we talk about here too.  I don't want to steer you wrong or away from where she is taking you (not that you would let me! heh heh)

No, I did not know that, I'm surprised I've not seen it somewhere. Yes, I tell her all about what we talk about, she said that I get very good and accurate feedback, I dont think I've ever mentioned anything she disagreed with. She said I go to different people checking my perceptions are correct because I need the validation before I believe myself, I agree with this, it's like I am afraid to voice my own opinion, I am not just fighting the thoughts/feelings/opinions of others but also these things within myself, it all leads back to fear.

  Have you shared those things with Mary?  If not, please talk, either with her or here.  Whatever those things are, the shame is not yours.

Yes I have, I have spoke to mary in great detail about many family members, a message here can be read in around 2mins, with mary I can go into things in a lot more detail and answer many questions. I will share a bit though. We stopped with our dad for a week whilst my mom went on holiday, this was the week from hell and I will never forget it. My dad had a sofa and mattresses, that was it. His place was empty, no food or blankets, nothing. He went to the pub afternoons with my eldest brother and would leave us to fend for ourselves. In the UK pubs used to close late afternoons and he would come back and expect us to go to sleep at 4pm, I mean that's ridiculous right? He would walk round our mattresses with his belt waiting for one of us to move. Mary believes that this is quite possibly why I often fear sleep and panic when trying to sleep, there were many reasons but mary thinks this is a big one. I had a stuffed toy which I loved and he threw it in the fire because I moved, followed by getting his belt. He would then go back to the pub all night with my brother. Obviously we were hungry so began stealing food from shops etc. By the end of the week, the police came to visit because of the stealing. My dad was cool as ice laughing with police about how "it's just kids being kids". When they left sh1t got real and he chased us out of his place with a hammer, he chased us all the way back to my moms and very nearly got me. I was very young, I dont remember how old but that was the last time I saw him, I will never forget thinking I had run far enough that I stopped to catch my breath, I turned round and he was there with this hammer above his head, crazy stuff. I spoke to a lot of people when I was younger who knew him, everybody said the same thing, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I sadly disagree.

  That makes sense actually LT.  I am not saying anything against your mom, at least I do not mean to.  I would find it very hard to believe that your mom grew up with SWSNBN without some of her own dysfunction on some level.  I know I did not with my own parents and I do not think they were as bad as SWSNBN.  How long did you all live with her?

Mary said they were all dysfunctional, all with many bad traits and issues, all sadistic in varying ways. That's a very interesting question, I do not know the answer but I would guess around 10yrs.

  Are you familiar with the terms emotional incest and parentification?  Many of us experienced that here.

Yes, I'm going to be honest and say I am avoiding looking into this right now, my excuse is that I have more than enough going on, this is true but I will be exploring this at some point.

  Do you want to talk about when you attempted suicide LT?

I have spoken about this before in a previous thread, it is not something I am proud of. It was met with disgust and I felt horrible for doing that to my family. Mary has changed my views on this, I was asking for help and I never got it. That much had happened that I needed help processing it all I think, the belief I was to blame for things was reinforced strongly and set me up for continued abuse in my marriage. This is why this is all surfacing now, 1 because I had not processed it and 2, I am no longer around highly abusive people. Mary said I am finding myself through the madness.

  Yes, I think betrayal and abandonment walk together, perhaps cloaked by shame and fear and as your shame is lifting and the fear begins to dissipate even a little bit, you are able to cast aside some of the blame and see you and little LT and the very justified feelings of betrayal and abandonment can be more readily accessed.   

The more I talk, the more the shame dissipates. I am getting the validation I never got as a child or as an adult, I am realising that things were not my fault, that I am not mad or broken. This enables other emotions to enter the fray, betrayal being one of them in my opinion.

  Yes, you are different.  Their feelings, expectations and beliefs are not defining you and you are free to see yourself as you are.  I know being different from them set you up for a lot of horrific abuse LT... but I am so thankful you are so different and are fighting for yourself.  

Yes, now I am free. I am thankful too and I know in the future (maybe now) the kids will be thankful.

Thank you

  IAR

I hope you are well 

First, you are doing such great work in T and here, and it takes a lot of strength to search for the answers as you are. I believe that it will definitely be life changing for you, and I am here cheering for you with each layer that you peel back and each breakthrough you experience. 

That is exactly what it is like I guess, peeling back layers. Some are not too bad, others fill me with deep, deep sadness and I honestly feel like I'm traumatizing myself at times. I appreciate you cheering me on 

 
I also got the impression that SWSNBN was a psychopath. From the research I've done, sociopath and psychopath are informal terms for someone who has Antisocial Personality Disorder. Sociopaths are described as having a conscience, albeit a weak one, while a psychopath is thought to have no conscience. ASPD exists on a spectrum, as does BPD, and psychopath is the term used to refer to those at the extreme end, though these terms are not clinical.

Ok, somebody else who has said it. She had no conscience, it is clear as day. There would of been regret over the treatment of her own children and correction with her grandchildren, there was non and she even tried with my own children but I would not allow it. Thankfully the kids dont remember much about her. There were many things that happened, too much to type such as the time she almost killed my uncle, she nearly cut my finger off one day too. Mary is convinced my ex is sociopathic too, also other family members. It is a huge amount to process and it is very upsetting.

  I think perhaps you aligned as a child with your mother as a fellow victim of SWSNBN, and that was probably a survival strategy that helped you feel not completely alone.

Yes, yes.

  No doubt, as harri mentioned, your mother did suffer psychological damage from being raised by a parent like that. However, the truth is that she was an adult at the time you were being abused, and adults have choices- even traumatized, psychologically damaged adults. You were not responsible for her. She was responsible for you. There may be reasons why she could not make the proper choices she needed to make, but she was still responsible for the choices. She was neither totally innocent nor completely guilty, the truth is somewhere in the middle, and that will probably take some time for you to sort that out and reconcile within yourself. That's OK and is to be expected.

I am glad you can see how difficult it is. I very rarely argued with my ex but 9/10 it was with how she spoke to the kids. The kids have told me that their mom was "different" with them when I was not around. I believe the times we did argue was when she "forgot herself". Mary has asked me several times that if I could stand in the way then why couldn't my mother? I would sit and explain my mom was abused and then mary would ask why I make up excuses for her when I was in need? This is very horrible for me because it very much goes against the grain, my morals say 1 thing and my learned behaviour says another, it is difficult and somewhat suffocating. It will take time.

  As for you being weak and sensitive while you view the abusive as strong- well. It takes much more courage to face the demons of your family history head on than to deny them or use them as a reason to bully and intimidate others. 

You echo mary.

Mary sounds totally awesome. I think it takes a lot of empathy and emotional intelligence to be an effective trauma therapist. I think probably nothing you can say would be too much for her. A person who has become an effective trauma therapist certainly knows the nature of the issues their clients may have- it's trauma, after all. No one goes to that kind of therapy because they once dropped an ice cream in the third grade, or something. 

I think she is awesome too and is very good for me, she makes me think so much.

 
You are an inspiration, LT, and I just thought you should be told that.

Thank you for your words 

  JNChell, I hope you are well too

  Hi again, LT. I have to say that it’s great to see the progress and awareness that you’re achieving. As the others have conveyed, much respect to you my friend. Harri has hit on something that I’ve found to be true from experience, research and interactions here. The scapegoat is a fighter. We fight for ourselves and our salvation. We refuse to conform to that which isn’t true. Our inner child needs us and is constantly tugging at our sleeve to see and hear them. 

Maybe this is how I should view myself, maybe at some point I hope to do so. Mary also said my inner child needs me, maybe the tugging on my sleeve is the images I keep seeing? She said i need to bridge the gap in order to heal myself.

Mary seems to be turning out to be a true advocate for you on your healing path. This is good to know. I’m happy for you.  

Yes, I feel like she is there for me and understands me, thank you for being happy for me.

  You’re fielding a lot at once, LT. I hope that you can recognize just how strong you are. Many people crumble under the weight that you’re shouldering. You’re doing great. 

Yes, I guess I am fielding a lot, I never thought of that before. In reality I am not doing that great though, I would say the past month has been utterly brutal and I'm taking regular meds now. It has been quite a struggle and this is why I said I feel like I am traumatizing myself. Since friday I have gone up a bit though, I'm hoping to stay "up" for a bit, I think I need it.

 
I wanted to stop by and offer you support. Keep your heels dug in. You’re doing great.

I always enjoy your contributions JNChell thank you.

I will probably not have time to start a thread on fear tonight as I have plans, but it will be started and I hope you will all contribute your experiences.

LT.

[JNChell]

Hi, LT.

She said i need to bridge the gap in order to heal myself.

I’ll be blunt and say that she’s right on this. You were emotionally abandoned as a child and some of your development stopped there. It’s ok. A lot of us here are alike in that aspect, but you’re well on your way to learning and understanding what that little boy needs to grow. It’s nothing that needs to be pushed or rushed. It simply needs to be nurtured in a way that allows you to build a healthy relationship with little LT. I know, it kind of sounds like talk that is off the deep end, but it’s true. It takes being open to the idea of it. Think about it. Sit with it and discuss it here. Reparenting ourselves is a big step that I believe is overlooked far too often. Maybe reparenting is something you can discuss with Mary?

Yes, I guess I am fielding a lot, I never thought of that before. In reality I am not doing that great though, I would say the past month has been utterly brutal and I'm taking regular meds now. It has been quite a struggle and this is why I said I feel like I am traumatizing myself. Since friday I have gone up a bit though, I'm hoping to stay "up" for a bit, I think I need it.

I’m sorry that you’re having these feelings. I understand how overwhelming they can become. Dealing with your current situation on top of opening the can of worms that was your childhood has to be one hell of a challenge for lack of better words. With that being said, you owe yourself a huge pat on the back for facing this stuff with the courage that you have. I mean that. No one can see inside of our minds. They can’t see the pain that is inside of us. There’s no cast for them to sign. We can barely talk about what is going on and what has happened because it won’t be understood by most. It’s brutal. You’re in the thick of it and you’re ok. It hurts and it sucks, but you’re ok. Are the meds helping? It will get better my friend. Be patient with yourself.

You mentioned traumatizing yourself. This is interesting as I’m a fellow trauma survivor myself. Cheers! Could it be that stored trauma is coming to your surface? That you and your body have reached a point where you’re ready to purge that trauma? Stuffed trauma shows it’s face when we’re stressed. Especially in adulthood when we have fewer distractions and more responsibilities (stress). LT, this stuff comes out eventually in one way or another. Don’t worry so much about retraumatizing yourself. Perhaps you’re dealing with trauma that was already there. Just a thought that I’m interested to hear back from you about. 

[TelHill]

Longterm,

I am sorry you had to go through this. Yes, antisocial personality disorder is what this is called in the US and other countries where therapists use the DSM to formally diagnose psychological conditions.

I have been in therapy for a long time regarding my enabling dad and bpd mom. The first step was getting MAD AS H3LL! and feeling it to the bottom of my being. I would feel better and feeling the need to get MAD AS H3LL! would return. I've gone through this healthy discharge of anger quite a few times.

One of the earlier therapists I saw suggested my mom might have bpd, which I never heard of. She suggested the book I Hate You--Don't Leave Me: Understanding the Borderline Personality. This is an oollllld book and it was very helpful at the time. The therapist could not diagnose my mom but could say for sure she acted sadistically towards me.

She also did Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) which took the sting out of a lot of antics my mom pulled on me & said was due to something I did. (I think that is where a lot of my shame came/comes from -- her blaming of me).   https://www.healthline.com/health/emdr-therapy   It helped mitigate my PTSD quite a bit.

This was over 20 years ago and I still have work to do on friendships and acceptance of new challenges - my parents being elderly.  I am glad you have your therapist.  She sounds caring and competent.

Sending you good thoughts. You are definitely not alone in facing this.

[Longterm]

Hi JNChell

  I’ll be blunt and say that she’s right on this. 

Mary has suggested I set some time aside when I can relax and talk to little LT. I explained I cannot look at him and she said that I could maybe talk without looking at him at first, to tell him it is ok. I feel a huge amount of shame when he looks at me, it is excruciatingly painful and I am finding myself avoiding him, he is not avoiding me though, he enters my mind constantly, it is as though he is staring at my very soul, the core of my being. It is very surreal and has been going on a while now. This talk does not feel like it's off the deep end anymore. I remember when I first wrote that I could see myself as a child, i remember the thoughts that i was going mad. When you guys and mary said this happens to a lot of people I instantly felt acceptance, it makes a lot of sense. Mary did say I need to repent myself, we do get through a lot in therapy and she always asks "have you spoke to him yet?".

I’m sorry that you’re having these feelings. I understand how overwhelming they can become. Dealing with your current situation on top of opening the can of worms that was your childhood has to be one hell of a challenge for lack of better words. 

Thank you for understanding. There is so much going on, I am very vigilant on the kids moods, they seem to be doing ok right now but I know that they could go down at any point, they do seem to enjoy therapy though and I have noticed changes in them. On top of that theres obviously divorce and the fear of my ex making contact, not to mention all the feelings surrounding that. I have not even started to process my brothers suicide, I know I have just blocked that out. The can of worms that is my childhood is huge too, my head feels like it is going to explode. I feel like the meds are making me worse but the doc disagrees, he said I'm just overwhelmed right now and have been for a while.

I dont feel like I deserve a pat on the back, I feel like I am just stumbling along and are very much spaced out a lot of the time, just isolated and wanting to be so.

You mentioned traumatizing yourself. This is interesting as I’m a fellow trauma survivor myself. Cheers! Could it be that stored trauma is coming to your surface? That you and your body have reached a point where you’re ready to purge that trauma? Stuffed trauma shows it’s face when we’re stressed. Especially in adulthood when we have fewer distractions and more responsibilities (stress). LT, this stuff comes out eventually in one way or another. Don’t worry so much about retraumatizing yourself. Perhaps you’re dealing with trauma that was already there. Just a thought that I’m interested to hear back from you about. 

Yes, it is very much coming to the surface. I never looked at it as purging, hmmm that gives me hope, thank you. The trauma was definitely already there. I remember when I first started reading up about BPD, the biggest thing that struck me was when I read that the non is in this kind of relationship because of issues he/she has within themselves and needs to address these issues in order to heal. I thought "oh crap". The first time I went to therapy mary highlighted this for me, I think that's why I had that breakthrough crisis early on, the trauma could see a way out and has flooded my mind ever since, purging as you put it.

Thank you 

Hi TelHill

  I am sorry you had to go through this. Yes, antisocial personality disorder is what this is called in the US and other countries where therapists use the DSM to formally diagnose psychological conditions.

Thank you, I appreciate your words. Mary said to me that the US is way further ahead in all this that most countries when it comes to understanding the dynamics at play.

I have been in therapy for a long time regarding my enabling dad and bpd mom. The first step was getting MAD AS H3LL! and feeling it to the bottom of my being. I would feel better and feeling the need to get MAD AS H3LL! would return. I've gone through this healthy discharge of anger quite a few times. 

I see this in myself. A few times I have wanted to take my moms picture off the wall and smash it. I have suffered a lot of loss in my life I feel (19 funerals) and I see this all as maybe a grieving process. The biggest tool in my box is that I have gone through the grieving process many times. Thinking about it there has probably been very little time in my life that I've not been grieving.

One of the earlier therapists I saw suggested my mom might have bpd, which I never heard of. She suggested the book I Hate You--Don't Leave Me: Understanding the Borderline Personality. This is an oollllld book and it was very helpful at the time. The therapist could not diagnose my mom but could say for sure she acted sadistically towards me. 

I think it's always important to understand that a therapist cannot diagnose. Mary suggested I read a book called "psychopath free". It talks about relationships with psychopaths and sociopaths, I could not put this book down, it described my relationships with family/ex to a T. It was a very eye opening read. I never thought about sadistic behaviour until reading this book.

  She also did Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) which took the sting out of a lot of antics my mom pulled on me & said was due to something I did. (I think that is where a lot of my shame came/comes from -- her blaming of me).   

Mary has suggested I do this type of therapy and also CBT. I have a number to call to book it which I will be doing.

  This was over 20 years ago and I still have work to do on friendships and acceptance of new challenges - my parents being elderly.  I am glad you have your therapist.  She sounds caring and competent. 
 

It will be a long process for sure. I have read some of your posts and you seem very aware of your thoughts and feelings, I think that's great and it sounds like you have come a long way. Yes, mary is very caring. It is very odd to find others that care but I have found that with mary, here, and my cousin too.

Sending you good thoughts. You are definitely not alone in facing this. 

Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate you chiming in 

LT.

[Harri]

Yes I can, he looks scared and helpless, worse than before. Mary said I need to bridge the gap and talk to him but only when ready.

Do you think he might be more willing/able to show his emotions now than he was before and that is part of what you are seeing as being worse?  Emotions are being felt rather than buried and are easier for you to see as you are feeling them too?  Yes, talk with him when you are ready.  I fond sometimes there is nothing much to say and listening and just being there was important too.  So for now, maybe just sit with him?  Is your hand still on his shoulder?

it's like I am afraid to voice my own opinion, I am not just fighting the thoughts/feelings/opinions of others but also these things within myself, it all leads back to fear.

This will get easier, listening to and trusting yourself.

The story with your sleeping, him burning your favorite stuffed toy and the belt and then chasing you with a hammer is quite terrifying.  I am sorry he did that to you.  It was cruel and twisted.  

I will never forget thinking I had run far enough that I stopped to catch my breath, I turned round and he was there with this hammer above his head, crazy stuff.

What happened that he did not hit you with the hammer LT?  Did it stop there or did he do something else?   Why was it the last time you saw him?

I spoke to a lot of people when I was younger who knew him, everybody said the same thing, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I sadly disagree.

So many of us hear this from others.  There are people who still think I had it easy, had great parents and had a great childhood.  All I can say is they knew a different person than we did.  A couple of friends saw my mom as scary but they still haven't a clue.  The truly bizarre and abusive behaviors just did not show up in front of others and my mom was good at pulling herself together when she could or hiding when she couldn't.    Your reality, your experience is valid and real and you simply knew more sides of your family.   People are far more complex than good or bad, and we are not going to see all of the complexities with short snippets and glimpses.  Plus, there are a lot of people out there living in their own little world with their own biases and filters.  Some of this perception of our parents being good people is because they look at us, being successful, outwardly put together and can't fathom that being true if we were abused and terrorized as kids.  Our reality belies the more typical stereotype and hollywood image of an abused child.  People like little cubby holes to put people in and will assign a spot based on nothing more than air.<end mini rant>

That's a very interesting question, I do not know the answer but I would guess around 10yrs.

That is a long time LT.   Do you remember age ranges?  How old were you when your step dad entered the picture?

Yes, I'm going to be honest and say I am avoiding looking into this right now, my excuse is that I have more than enough going on, this is true but I will be exploring this at some point.

Fair enough.

I am sorry I must have missed the thread where you talked about the suicide attempt, or at least I think I missed it.  I will try to find it.  

Mary said I am finding myself through the madness.

Yes, you are.  

This enables other emotions to enter the fray, betrayal being one of them in my opinion.

Yes.  Remember to allow anger too like we talked about before and as Telhill mentioned.  Anger is a wonderful motivator when used properly.

I want to mention a book that really helped me get an idea of what therapy involved, specifically working through childhood trauma and how our inner child can act up and out made a big difference.  The title is: Get Me Out of Here: My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder  While I have never been diagnosed with BPD, I found the descriptions of how she felt while in therapy quite educational and enlightening especially when it came to dealing with inner child stuff.  Re-parenting us tales a lot of validation, love, acceptance and we talk about that a lot (getting to know our kids, coloring, art, music etc).  What I never really saw talked about was how important limits and boundaries are along with structure in terms of getting my kid under better control.  Limits, boundaries, structure are all parts of love and learning to love me also has meant learning to tame my inner kid and teaching her to trust in adult me (gee, I sound bonkers don't I?  haha)  A retired Moderator named pessim-optimist recommended it to me and it was eye opening to say the least.  It gave me, someone without kids of my own, good examples of what parenting is.  Thought I would stick that in here.  You might not need it but maybe someone else does.

 

[Longterm]

 

Do you think he might be more willing/able to show his emotions now than he was before and that is part of what you are seeing as being worse?  Emotions are being felt rather than buried and are easier for you to see as you are feeling them too?  Yes, talk with him when you are ready.  I fond sometimes there is nothing much to say and listening and just being there was important too.  So for now, maybe just sit with him?  Is your hand still on his shoulder? 

Interesting. Yes, he is showing more emotion, I never once thought that, why do I need these things pointing out? He is terrified and yes, I am feeling them too, both our anxieties are through the roof. Before he just stood there looking sombre, it is different now. My hand is no longer on his shoulder, he is on the floor, with one elbow propping himself up, the other arm is being used to defend himself, it is horrible. He is looking at me and shouting words yet everything is still silent. I cannot look at him only his mouth, it is horrific to even type this, i just want to get away from him.

This is all just so distressing, I'm sitting here at work and my chest is up and down like crazy.

  This will get easier, listening to and trusting yourself. 

The story with your sleeping, him burning your favorite stuffed toy and the belt and then chasing you with a hammer is quite terrifying.  I am sorry he did that to you.  It was cruel and twisted.  

Yes, thanks for your words here.

  What happened that he did not hit you with the hammer LT?  Did it stop there or did he do something else?   Why was it the last time you saw him?

He missed, he swung and hit the wall. I had turned running again but heard the clink off the brickwork. Hmm, good question. I have no idea why it was the last time in all honesty, more unanswered questions I guess.

  The truly bizarre and abusive behaviors just did not show up in front of others and my mom was good at pulling herself together when she could or hiding when she couldn't.    Your reality, your experience is valid and real and you simply knew more sides of your family.  

My ex was very good at this. SWSNBN would often not care who saw what at times. My dad like I said, was also very good at this. When I said I spoke to a lot of people, I meant a LOT of people. Him and his brothers were very well known in our town. I found out a few years back that he had even done charity work, that's bizarre right? I did not find ONE person who was even on the fence about his character or I thought was lying, there were many stories of how great he was, its sickening really. I know you understand, this is why it's important for us ALL to honour our own truth and show love to ourselves. Time for my favourite quote before you notice my hypocrisy, "we teach best what we need to know".

People like little cubby holes to put people in and will assign a spot based on nothing more than air.<end mini rant> 

I enjoy your rants if that's what you want to call them. I see the passion in your words, you understand. It is very endearing and comforting, you rant as much as you want, I will listen 

That is a long time LT.   Do you remember age ranges?  How old were you when your step dad entered the picture? 

Indeed, too long. I'm just guessing here. I think I was around 5 and she lived with us until around 14-15. I think my dad entered the fray when I was around 10 I think.

  Fair enough.

I am sorry I must have missed the thread where you talked about the suicide attempt, or at least I think I missed it.  I will try to find it.  

No need to apologise, I'm sick of me waffling on, im like a mothers meeting at times  I've written about 3 dictionaries here, it would take a year and several headaches to get through it all.

  Yes.  Remember to allow anger too like we talked about before and as Telhill mentioned.  Anger is a wonderful motivator when used properly.

It is very difficult for me, I much prefer sarcasm to anger. As soon as I feel angry I question myself. If the anger does not dissipate I panic and isolate, it is honestly horrible.

  The title is: Get Me Out of Here: My Recovery from Borderline Personality Disorder 

You never sound bonkers, I'm the bonkers one the book makes perfect sense really as CPTSD is often misdiagnosed as BPD as we know due to similarities. I shall add it to my list. You just reminded me about the DBT workbook I'm yet to start plus the thread on fear I was going to start tonight. My memory has been so poor for ages now. I will get round to these bits and pieces though.

Thank you for making my eyes open that little bit more regarding little LT and everything else, you are awesome Harri and dont you forget it 

LT.

[Harri]

I never once thought that, why do I need these things pointing out?

LT, all I am doing is asking questions, sharing thoughts and offering alternative perspectives.  You are doing the hard work and deciding what fits for you.  As always, if it fits, take it.  If not, leave it and we can see what does fit. 

My hand is no longer on his shoulder, he is on the floor, with one elbow propping himself up, the other arm is being used to defend himself, it is horrible. He is looking at me and shouting words yet everything is still silent. I cannot look at him only his mouth, it is horrific to even type this, i just want to get away from him.

Well, unfortunately and fortunately, you can't get away from him.  I think it was JNChell who said this stuff is going to come out one way or another.   How about just saying, even in your mind, "I am working on it" to let him know he is not being ignored?   I used to do that ... sometimes I muttered it and sometimes I was really aggravated when i said it.    It was all I could manage at the time.  Might that be more manageable to think about trying?

This is all just so distressing, I'm sitting here at work and my chest is up and down like crazy.

Breathe.  Take it slow.  Is the distress from the emotions you are seeing in him and feeling yourself or is it the thought of helping him or something else?  let's see what is there and if we can work on it a bit, but only if you want to and if you are ready.

He missed, he swung and hit the wall. I had turned running again but heard the clink off the brickwork. Hmm, good question. I have no idea why it was the last time in all honesty, more unanswered questions I guess.

Damn.  Damn it.  Part of me is hoping he broke a bone or two when he hit the wall.  Not that my anger is helpful here or anything.  That is terrifying to think about as an adult but as a child?  Damn. 

I wonder if your cousin knows why you never saw him after that? 

I know you understand, this is why it's important for us ALL to honour our own truth and show love to ourselves. Time for my favourite quote before you notice my hypocrisy, "we teach best what we need to know".

Exactly!     That is why I get so much more from posting here than I give. 

heh heh, I feel the same way when you say you are 'just waffling'...

I think I was around 5 and she lived with us until around 14-15. I think my dad entered the fray when I was around 10 I think.

And then you got with your ex at 15 right?  Was your bio dad dead by the time dad came along?  Not sure why, but I keep wondering about this.  haha... just waffling!

I searched for a thread or post about suicide from you and could not find one.  Do you remember which thread it was in or the board it was on?

It is very difficult for me, I much prefer sarcasm to anger. As soon as I feel angry I question myself. If the anger does not dissipate I panic and isolate, it is honestly horrible.

Do you ever get angry with your kids?  What does that look and sound like?  Do you shut down then too or do you shut down only when feeling anger about your childhood?  What specifically scares you about it? 

Thank you for making my eyes open that little bit more regarding little LT and everything else...

You're welcome LT.  And right back atcha!

 

[Longterm]

Well, unfortunately and fortunately, you can't get away from him.  I think it was JNChell who said this stuff is going to come out one way or another.   How about just saying, even in your mind, "I am working on it" to let him know he is not being ignored?   I used to do that ... sometimes I muttered it and sometimes I was really aggravated when i said it.    It was all I could manage at the time.  Might that be more manageable to think about trying? 

Maybe I could try this.

Breathe.  Take it slow.  Is the distress from the emotions you are seeing in him and feeling yourself or is it the thought of helping him or something else?  let's see what is there and if we can work on it a bit, but only if you want to and if you are ready. 

That is a very interesting question. I think it is both, but also fear of him. I can see that I am actively avoiding helping him, the thought scares the crap out of me, that's really interesting isn't it?

Damn.  Damn it.  Part of me is hoping he broke a bone or two when he hit the wall.  Not that my anger is helpful here or anything.  That is terrifying to think about as an adult but as a child?  Damn.  

I wonder if your cousin knows why you never saw him after that?   

I was actually at my cousin's the day he died so it may be worth asking. I did find out many years later how he died, he was the same age I am now, weird right?

  Exactly!     That is why I get so much more from posting here than I give.  

heh heh, I feel the same way when you say you are 'just waffling'... 

Yes, I get what you mean now 

And then you got with your ex at 15 right?  Was your bio dad dead by the time dad came along?  Not sure why, but I keep wondering about this.  haha... just waffling! 

Yes, out of the frying pan, into the fire. It is all very hazy, sometimes I think yes, he was around but some things point to me saying no because chronologically they dont fit.

 
I searched for a thread or post about suicide from you and could not find one.  Do you remember which thread it was in or the board it was on?

I'm sure it was the thread called "started therapy today".

Do you ever get angry with your kids?  What does that look and sound like?  Do you shut down then too or do you shut down only when feeling anger about your childhood?  What specifically scares you about it?     

Yes, I get angry with the kids. I dislike it when they play fight. I think the reason behind this is that one of them always gets hurt and I fear them being injured. I also dislike the noise, I am very sensitive to loud noises, shouting/arguing etc. I find it incredibly difficult to deal with, even at work or outdoors, loud noises trigger me. It makes me panic and I have to get away and do something, sometimes I will visibly shake, other times I will pop out and take the youngest with me to diffuse the situation. Recently I have started to talk to the kids about it because I do not want to feel like that. I have told them I cannot deal with it, I've not gone into detail obviously but I think its important. I think it is all linked to childhood and also everything that has happened since. This is why I would very rarely confront my ex and also why I could not deal with the issues surrounding my eldest son and his violence. I shut down a lot more I would say when thinking about childhood, it is very difficult at times trying to hide it from the kids, they are always asking me if I am ok just lately, they sense something is wrong I feel but I'm 100% sure they dont know at times I feel angry. I think I learned to hide it in childhood very well because back then an angry outburst would have serious consequences, I saw my brothers make this mistake many times. I think what scares me about it is a lack of control. I can literally have panic attacks when angry, i can violently shake, the emotion of anger can overwhelm me and make me feel incredibly shameful and scared, i cannot control the physical effect it has on my body.

You raise some very thought provoking questions yet again 

LT.

[Harri]

That is a very interesting question. I think it is both, but also fear of him. I can see that I am actively avoiding helping him, the thought scares the crap out of me, that's really interesting isn't it?

Yes, it is interesting LT.  It has been a few days (sorry about that), have you thought more about why you are afraid of helping him?

For me, I was scared of opening up to the feelings I know little Harri was holding on to for me.  I did not want to feel them.  I was also afraid there was more that I had forgotten about.  Turns out the latter was not true.  Nothing new came to light.  What did change was definitions and labels of events, perspectives changed and with all of that there was a boat load of emotions to deal with.  I was also afraid of facing the consequences of the choices I made to hide, deny and stay in the abuse.  So damn much time lost.  It got better though I still grieve some.  It is what it is.  Damn it. 

I did find out many years later how he died, he was the same age I am now, weird right?

How did he die LT?  I know you said before you remember the sounds in the room around you (Uncle's fish tank right?) what else?

BTW, I read both parts of your "started therapy today" thread and I had read it before, I even responded in it.  You talked very briefly about your suicide attempt.  There is no shame in asking for help LT.  You asked the only way you knew how to ask.  I doubt very much you had the vocabulary or awareness to express what was happening in your life in terms of the abuse.  Your suicide attempt was a loud cry for help and unfortunately the closest people around you did not take care of you, did not hear you.   Other people tried but it sounds like you did not know how to let them (reading, I wanted to hug your postman and your teacher for at least trying).  Does that sound about right? 

Anger is so difficult for so many of us.  I can sit here and say anger is just like any other emotions really but what good does that do?  I think you have a good understanding of what is going on when you are around it, and what happens to you physically when you experience anger.  Shutting down is one way to cope, not the best way as i know you know.  The concern I have, for you and anyone who has trouble with anger is where you said: 

This is why I would very rarely confront my ex and also why I could not deal with the issues surrounding my eldest son and his violence.

Being anger avoidant does not work well does it?   It leaves us open to a lot of bad choices and abuse from others.  I think you might get better at handling it as you heal more and begin to really embrace your worth and value as a human and recognize just how strong you already are LT.

 

[Longterm]

 

  Yes, it is interesting LT.  It has been a few days (sorry about that), have you thought more about why you are afraid of helping him?

For me, I was scared of opening up to the feelings I know little Harri was holding on to for me.  I did not want to feel them.  I was also afraid there was more that I had forgotten about.  Turns out the latter was not true.  Nothing new came to light.  What did change was definitions and labels of events, perspectives changed and with all of that there was a boat load of emotions to deal with.  I was also afraid of facing the consequences of the choices I made to hide, deny and stay in the abuse.  So damn much time lost.  It got better though I still grieve some.  It is what it is.  Damn it.  
 

I have been thinking about it yes. I feel as though I can very much relate to what you are saying, I think I am avoiding feeling the pain and also I think I am avoiding the label of "victim". There has been other memories that have returned, it has been almost like a tidal wave of emotions, the more I think, the more that returns and it starts off the thought processes again. It is mentally exhausting. Some things I remember and think "how did you forget that?". Its like a dig that is insatiable, yet I keep digging causing myself more distress. I am afraid of what will come to light if I connect with him, he looks to be in a lot of pain and helplessness, it is very scary. The denial too is upsetting, things that others would scream were abusive were simply normal to me. I feel as though I do not understand how bad it was. To talk to mary and here is weird, at times i am asking myself if it really was that bad? Did other children have it worse? Do i just need to chill out? Do you know what i mean? Do i just want attention? I remember as a child listening to other kids and non told stories like mine, i never told anybody what went on but it did stick out that kids would moan about not having sweets etc, i used to think "really?". They should've come to my house for an hour. I think if I'm honest, it was that bad, connecting with little LT would maybe take acceptance of that? To face it and truly see it for what it was and to clearly see those around me as they were/are.

  How did he die LT?  I know you said before you remember the sounds in the room around you (Uncle's fish tank right?) what else?

I have actually seen his death certificate around 15yrs ago. Cause of death was stated as brain haemorrhage. There is a lot of conspiracy around this. Apparently he fell down concrete stairs. Some believe my brother killed him and some believe it was accidental. People were always tight lipped when it came to talking about him. SWSNBN banned us from mentioning him. I was at my uncles place the day he died and my uncle told me. The fish tanks were at my uncles, I remember it as though it was yesterday. I went home the day after and was starved for 3 days. I look back and what springs to mind was that there was no acknowledging what just happened, there was no comfort, nothing. Any mention of him was met with violence. I remember his funeral too, that was an odd experience.

  BTW, I read both parts of your "started therapy today" thread and I had read it before, I even responded in it.  You talked very briefly about your suicide attempt.  There is no shame in asking for help LT.  You asked the only way you knew how to ask.  I doubt very much you had the vocabulary or awareness to express what was happening in your life in terms of the abuse.  Your suicide attempt was a loud cry for help and unfortunately the closest people around you did not take care of you, did not hear you.   Other people tried but it sounds like you did not know how to let them (reading, I wanted to hug your postman and your teacher for at least trying).  Does that sound about right?  

Yes, if does sound right. I went and read back through it myself, it's horrible isn't it. I remember my mom saying "oh God, not another one". This was a reference to my schizophrenic brother. I wasnt allowed to be in need or express that I was having difficulties.

  Being anger avoidant does not work well does it?   It leaves us open to a lot of bad choices and abuse from others.  I think you might get better at handling it as you heal more and begin to really embrace your worth and value as a human and recognize just how strong you already are LT.

No it does not. I remember a while back when my ex imploded. I was talking to my friend about how hard it us for her and how much she suffers and she doesn't mean the things she does. He said "you need to get angry and you need to get angry quick". I honestly believe my avoidance and calmness was driving him crazy, he could not believe I was so calm and sympathetic after everything she had done. I do struggle with anger and it is something that needs to be worked on. It's the feeling of being out of control and panicky. What I am trying to do is be more assertive, me and mary spoke about karpman and me not wanting to be the persecutor. She said being assertive and knowing the difference is important, to get my needs met without bullying as I often feel narcissistic for speaking up, it makes me feel self centred and selfish. Maybe I see anger as being bad, and that's why I avoid it.

LT.

[JNChell]

Hey, LT. Just wanted to pop in here and say that you’re doing great work. I just read through your most recent conversation with Harri, and I noticed how much further ahead of the game that you guys are/were when I finally gave in and faced my denial over what I had been through. You guys are much more aware of your inner child than I was. It wasn’t even a thought. Much like you, I saw everything as being “normal”. I think I was in the mindset of “what’s done is done”. I was very wrong. Stuffing my trauma and the feelings that are attached to it nearly came with an ultimate cost. It was more than I could handle on my own, and most definitely more than little JNChell should’ve ever had to shoulder. Don’t be afraid to validate and nurture little LT. In doing so you’ll also be taking care of yourself. The two of you need each other.

Much of the healing process is changing how we think. It can feel like we’re going against the grain when we do this. If you really sit and think about that, we are going against the grain of what we were taught, so it might feel uncomfortable for a while. It sounds like allowing yourself to feel anger over the abuses that you’ve suffered is uncomfortable. That’s understandable. Expressing anger as youngsters had adverse consequences. Do you see how long these things have been trapped inside of you? It’s ok to feel anger as you begin to process and release those feelings. Anger is an important part of the process. I’ve learned more about mindfulness by processing the anger than any other step. I’m much better at not reacting which was a big problem for me personally. Anger is where I’ve really tapped into myself and understood that I only have control over myself. I’m responsible for my actions regardless of any triggers. I was tested in a big way recently and did my best with what I’ve learned so far. It worked out better than if I had still been in my old shoes.

Having fears is also common for folks like us and I’m glad that you and Mary are talking about them. You know, we might be a bit hyper vigilant, and our heads might be on a swivel, but once we process what needs to be processed,  and we’ve nailed down some things that really allow us to breathe for once, we can really be on top of things. I hope that makes sense to you.

You’re doing great. Keep at it LT.

[Longterm]

  JNChell

  You guys are much more aware of your inner child than I was. It wasn’t even a thought

I wasnt aware at all until June I think. Everytime I would think of childhood, it was blurry and avoided. I could see things but only from my own perspective, I could never see myself. It is very bizarre and surreal. Suddenly the past is real, heightened senses, smell is the thing that sticks out. I seem to smell everything. For example, last week I was thinking about my grandad (a nice guy). He was SWSNBN husband. I was little when he died, hmmm hold on, I think this memory was before 5, interesting. Anyway, he was Ill and had both legs amputated. From what I remember he was very fond of me and enjoyed me singing to him. In the memory I walked into his bedroom as he asked me to and the first thing I could smell was medicinal cream he used, I mean incredibly real smells. It is weird no? I associate smells to memories, I can smell all sorts. Anyway, I know I'm waffling on. I'm just making the point that I went from relatively little to having myself stare at me and I can touch/smell everything, maybe this will change for you too.

   I think I was in the mindset of “what’s done is done”. I was very wrong.

Right there with you. I remember when SWSNBN died, I spoke to myself and said it's over now, I could draw a line, now here I am wondering what is wrong with me, learning all these enlightening yet deeply upsetting things about myself.

Do you see how long these things have been trapped inside of you?  

Oh yes, the whole "bigger picture" is consuming. I completely understand and agree with what you have said, it resonates with me and perfectly describes how going against the grain is so alien.

Having fears is also common for folks like us and I’m glad that you and Mary are talking about them. You know, we might be a bit hyper vigilant, and our heads might be on a swivel, but once we process what needs to be processed,  and we’ve nailed down some things that really allow us to breathe for once, we can really be on top of things. I hope that makes sense to you.  

I was actually talking with mary the other day about fears. We had a good old waffle about my brothers and my interpretation of not being as strong as them. She said I am much stronger yet scared of mistakes, she said embracing my self perceived flaws is important as they are not flaws at all. It hit home that my vulnerability is something I see as weakness whereas it should be something I'm proud of, I dont think we can love without first being vulnerable. I think she is maybe right, my empathy and caring nature is not to be feared, it should be accepted and embraced. I'm guessing this is what she means by not fighting who I am but accepting it. Everything you say makes sense JNChell 

You’re doing great. Keep at it LT. 

Thanks for the encouragement.

LT.

[Harri]

Do you know what i mean?

Yes, I think I do.  I can always think of someone who had it worse than I did.  Does that change my experience though?  I don't think so.  Remember, minimizing is a defense.  It makes sense that you are going to question how bad things are and if what you experienced warrants the drive and attention you are giving it all right now.  Minimization and denial seem to go hand in hand. 

things that others would scream were abusive were simply normal to me.

I get this too.  It is what we knew.  Think about it.  That is one of the saddest statements I have heard when it comes to this sort of stuff.

it did stick out that kids would moan about not having sweets etc, i used to think "really?".

Right? 

I think if I'm honest, it was that bad, connecting with little LT would maybe take acceptance of that? To face it and truly see it for what it was and to clearly see those around me as they were/are.

I think so. 

That is a rough way to die and the adults around you made it impossible for you to grieve and certainly did nothing to comfort you.

I look back and what springs to mind was that there was no acknowledging what just happened, there was no comfort, nothing. Any mention of him was met with violence. I remember his funeral too, that was an odd experience.

To be met with violence for just mentioning his name?  That is horrible.   The air of secrecy too... I associate secrets with shame.  Not sure if that applies here or not.  The brother some say who may have pushed your father, is it the brother with schizophrenia or the other one?  Not that it matters I guess.  There just seems to be such an air of mystery and secrecy here.

I remember my mom saying "oh God, not another one". This was a reference to my schizophrenic brother. I wasnt allowed to be in need or express that I was having difficulties.

I want to just swoop in and scoop up little LT and take him to safety.  How callous and cruel.   We can sit here and rationalize what your mother said and even where she may have been coming from, but that is all about her and utterly selfish on her part.  I am sorry she never really saw you.  I am sorry she missed out on that.  I am more sorry that you did not receive the love, care and concern that you are worthy of.

He said "you need to get angry and you need to get angry quick".

   

I do struggle with anger and it is something that needs to be worked on. It's the feeling of being out of control and panicky. What I am trying to do is be more assertive, me and mary spoke about karpman and me not wanting to be the persecutor. She said being assertive and knowing the difference is important, to get my needs met without bullying as I often feel narcissistic for speaking up, it makes me feel self centred and selfish. Maybe I see anger as being bad, and that's why I avoid it.

Again, I wonder if you really know what anger is.  You have plenty of experience with rage, but that is very different from anger I think.  Regardless, I think you will get there.  Getting angry, is I think, important for healing.  Getting angry about how you were treated by just about everyone and the things you gave up and lost out on.  See what Mary thinks.  I will be very interested to hear her thoughts.

 

[Longterm]

 

  Remember, minimizing is a defense.  It makes sense that you are going to question how bad things are and if what you experienced warrants the drive and attention you are giving it all right now.  Minimization and denial seem to go hand in hand.  
 

Hmmm, oddly enough that makes me feel better. I never looked at minimizing as being a defence mechanism. At times I do look at it and think am I just being a bit sensitive but other times I think how I would not treat my own kids like that. Smells like dissonance to me 

  I get this too.  It is what we knew.  Think about it.  That is one of the saddest statements I have heard when it comes to this sort of stuff.
 

I have been told before that I often do not see what is right in front of me. A T told me a while back that I have excellent insight and self awareness but not when it comes to her (my ex). I often feel like I am completely numb from abuse and simply do not see it because of conditioning. I think it's exactly the same scenario with my FOO. I normalize and rationalise things that others who have not been in dysfunctional dynamics would walk away from at the drop of a hat. I think I dont see abuse when it is present, I simply accept it, no questions asked. I hope you understand what I mean.

 
That is a rough way to die and the adults around you made it impossible for you to grieve and certainly did nothing to comfort you.

Exactly, how can I only see that now after decades have passed? I remember when my stepdad died, it's been 5yrs this month. The kids loved him and it hurt them a lot, not a week goes by that he is not mentioned, we was all talking about him last night actually. Anyway, my main priority was to be there for the kids, to help them through it, to many lengths, not grieving myself (highlighted by mary). How can somebodys dad die and those around them not offer comfort and support? Thinking about it just blows my brains if I'm honest, I mean really? I dont get that.

  To be met with violence for just mentioning his name?  That is horrible.   The air of secrecy too... I associate secrets with shame.  Not sure if that applies here or not.  The brother some say who may have pushed your father, is it the brother with schizophrenia or the other one?  Not that it matters I guess.  There just seems to be such an air of mystery and secrecy here.

It is all a bit odd isn't it? Others I met would talk about him as I mentioned, but family? No. I remember trying to talk to my mom about him in my teens, she just looked through me like she was scared, what is all that about? I think I was maybe trying to get some sort of closure? To understand? Why the secrecy? What happened? I will obviously never know and as I've discovered, closure will come from within. What I do know is that my experiences with him were not great, maybe that's all there is to know? The schizophrenic brother, he was with my biological when he was honing his hammer wielding skills. From what I gather, he lived with my dad when my parents divorced and then went into foster care as my mom could not cope with him. There were a few that said he had killed him, who knows? I've heard that many different stories about many things, it's like trying to untangle a pile of rope.

  I want to just swoop in and scoop up little LT and take him to safety.  How callous and cruel.   We can sit here and rationalize what your mother said and even where she may have been coming from, but that is all about her and utterly selfish on her part.  I am sorry she never really saw you.  I am sorry she missed out on that.  I am more sorry that you did not receive the love, care and concern that you are worthy of.

Yes, this is what I'm seeing now and I feel my guilt lifting. I'm not perfect by any means but my kids mental health is top of my list, it was always me that sat them down and spoke to them, always me that tried helping anywhere I could, I still do it now, probably too much. I look back and see i was in need, why was nobody there for me? Where was my help? All i got was "what happens in this house, stays in this house", i mean it's disgusting isn't it? I was made to feel guilty and like i had done something wrong. It's not right.

  Again, I wonder if you really know what anger is.  You have plenty of experience with rage, but that is very different from anger I think.  Regardless, I think you will get there.  Getting angry, is I think, important for healing.  Getting angry about how you were treated by just about everyone and the things you gave up and lost out on.  See what Mary thinks.  I will be very interested to hear her thoughts.

I think your spot on. I think I see rage as anger, maybe that's why I'm fearful of it? I've not spoke to mary about it in depth, we have been talking fairly extensively about my brothers recently.

LT.

[Harri]

Smells like dissonance to me

Yes, to me too.  I still have times where I question how bad things were. 

I have been told before that I often do not see what is right in front of me. A T told me a while back that I have excellent insight and self awareness but not when it comes to her (my ex). I often feel like I am completely numb from abuse and simply do not see it because of conditioning. I think it's exactly the same scenario with my FOO. I normalize and rationalise things that others who have not been in dysfunctional dynamics would walk away from at the drop of a hat. I think I dont see abuse when it is present, I simply accept it, no questions asked. I hope you understand what I mean.

I definitely understand this!  I would also miss out on danger cues, like if someone was getting angry to the point where violence will occur, it did not occur to me to walk away.  I would stay there either oblivious or trying to fix things.  I still do this to a point.  I sometimes miss conflict.  Things that others call an argument or fight sometimes seem like nothing to me, certainly nothing to be concerned about.  Other times, I flip the opposite way and I see conflict where there is none.  Fortunately I have a few people I can check with and get their opinion.   It will often take me days to analyze things and see what happened.  Sometimes longer.  Does that happen for you too?

Exactly, how can I only see that now after decades have passed?

Our psyche's can do amazing things to protect us. 

How can somebodys dad die and those around them not offer comfort and support? Thinking about it just blows my brains if I'm honest, I mean really? I dont get that.

I don't get it either LT.  No matter the quality of the relationship that is still a huge loss and is scary for a kid especially.  A lot of complex emotions come up that are hard for adults to deal with.   To leave you alone to try to comprehend the loss and all those emotions?  Emotional neglect does not quite cover it for me but it is all I can come up with. 

I am impressed, but not surprised, that you are able to do so well with your own kids and see their needs.  Breaking that legacy, changing the generational patterns takes a lot of wisdom, strength and awareness.   We just need to tweak your self care in this area.    Were you able to share emotions the other night? 

What I do know is that my experiences with him were not great, maybe that's all there is to know?

Maybe.  Maybe that is all that matters, certainly for now. 

I've heard that many different stories about many things, it's like trying to untangle a pile of rope.

Are you okay leaving the pile of rope alone?  I mean when you do not have someone poking at you with questions (says the poker!).

As for closure, I agree with you.  I think it must come from within even when you can get questions answered.  I define closure as letting go of the past and accepting what is.  For me, closure is dependent on me.  How do you define it? 

Yes, this is what I'm seeing now and I feel my guilt lifting.

This is fantastic to read!   

I look back and see i was in need, why was nobody there for me? Where was my help? All i got was "what happens in this house, stays in this house", i mean it's disgusting isn't it? I was made to feel guilty and like i had done something wrong. It's not right.

It is most definitely not right and yes, I agree it is disgusting.   I feel angry thinking about all that has happened to you.  Anger, not rage.  Sadness too.  Grief.   What about you?

Have you gone back and read this thread, starting with Part 1 from August 23?  If you have or if you do it, what do you see?

[Longterm]

Hi Harri.

I will respond when I have more energy, but i will continue my theme of saying you give me much to think about, thank you 

I am very ill right now unfortunately. It is very odd as I've not been ill in over 2yrs. When I was with ex I was ill all the time, I think in the last year I was ill around 5 times. Maybe all this stress and emotional distress has made me ill? That's the first thing I thought of. I dont know how I made it to work and am debating going home right now.

Anywho, I didn't want you thinking I was being rude, I shall return.

LT.

[Harri]

LT, please take care of yourself and I hope you get better soon.

Don't worry about getting back to me here.   

 

[Longterm]

 

I am feeling much better at present, I think I am over the worst of it. It's very weird being ill like that when I've not experienced it in so long, I managed to not lose any time at work so I'm happy about that.

 I still have times where I question how bad things were.  
 

Ah, so this is fairly normal then. I find comfort in that. Dissonance is a horrible thing at times, it's like you understand what's going on but are unable to stop it. Mary spoke to me about fighting it, it is easier said than done. Sometimes when I come out of a negative feelings period I become angry with myself that I couldn't prevent it from happening.

Does that happen for you too?
   

Oh yes, I analyze most events for days after. I often feel like I am being attacked and have been trying to have time outs to think things through, to centre myself, to think about things in the here and now. Sometimes I am being attacked and need to defend myself, other times though I can see that a threat does not exist. I ask myself "what is the problem?". And go from there. I have been doing this a lot lately.
I will often not see danger signs but as soon as I do, I am out of there. This is definitely childhood related, I find conflict very difficult.

A lot of complex emotions come up that are hard for adults to deal with.   To leave you alone to try to comprehend the loss and all those emotions?   

Next week is the anniversary of my stepdads death, he died a few days before my birthday. The kids talk about him all the time but more so this time of year and talking about this does draw comparisons. He was a great guy and I enjoy us talking about him. I couldn't imagine telling my kids to shut up or using violence if they mention his name. I wont talk about SWSNBN with them because I want her forgotten about, but I dont threaten them. I'm lucky really as it's only my daughter that really remembers her and there was no closeness anyway. I think my family avoiding talking about my biological says a lot.

Were you able to share emotions the other night?   

Yes, we all understand the loss because we all feel it, even now. I found his death very traumatic if I'm honest and I think of it often. I have spoke about that night with mary, it was horrible. I remember going home to see the kids, they were all upset.

Maybe.  Maybe that is all that matters, certainly for now.   

I think so, I will never know what really happened so I think going off my own experiences is probably the way to go.

Are you okay leaving the pile of rope alone?  I mean when you do not have someone poking at you with questions (says the poker!). 

I'm unsure, I think it is likely impossible to untangle it all.

I define closure as letting go of the past and accepting what is.  For me, closure is dependent on me.  How do you define it?   

I think your right, closure is dependent on us. I define closure as being at peace with things, to understand things have happened but being able to look at it objectively and to be ok with that.

This is fantastic to read!   

It is right? I think my guilt on many things is shifting. I'm starting to think "what about me?". I feel angry that many things have happened and I do feel a sense of injustice, maybe that is healthy anger?

  Have you gone back and read this thread, starting with Part 1 from August 23?  If you have or if you do it, what do you see?

I've not know but have been contemplating it. I'm worried it may bring my shame back, something I feel I have recently let go of. I may do this week, I'm still on the fence, if I do I'll write how I feel.

 

LT.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi LT,

Just wanted to say that even if you don't go back and read the thread from the beginning, I can tell you that I see progress in you over the two months you have been writing about this.

It's harder to see our own growth sometimes. My T told me after six months that she could see huge progress in me, but I didn't realize it. You are moving forward and have done a tremendous amount of work in two months and it shows

[Harri]

   Hi LT!

I am feeling much better at present, I think I am over the worst of it.

Whew!  Glad to hear it!

Dissonance is a horrible thing at times, it's like you understand what's going on but are unable to stop it. Mary spoke to me about fighting it, it is easier said than done.

Care to share what Mary said about it?

I often feel like I am being attacked and have been trying to have time outs to think things through, to centre myself, to think about things in the here and now. Sometimes I am being attacked and need to defend myself, other times though I can see that a threat does not exist. I ask myself "what is the problem?". And go from there. I have been doing this a lot lately.

Excellent!  It is so hard to do though isn't it?    I attribute it to my outer critic where sometimes I see the world as a dangerous place and I have to defend myself.  Everything is a threat... and I come up swinging.  I remember when I finally realized I was swinging at nothing and boy did I feel foolish.   There I was sitting in my car, waiting to pick someone up and had this epiphany...     

Will you and the kids do anything to honor the memory of your step-father? 

It is right? I think my guilt on many things is shifting. I'm starting to think "what about me?". I feel angry that many things have happened and I do feel a sense of injustice, maybe that is healthy anger?

  I think it is healthy anger.  Certainly righteous and a very necessary part of healing the very deep wounds we have.  It will allow us to eventually grieve and push us through recovery when we get stuck. IMHO of course.

I'm worried it may bring my shame back, something I feel I have recently let go of. I may do this week, I'm still on the fence, if I do I'll write how I feel.

Do it only when you are ready.  One thing I want to mention or really ask is this:  Would it bring back the shame or would it reveal the shame that remains?  A slight difference there I think.

[Longterm]

Thanks IAR for your continued support, you to Harri, it means a lot to know others listen and understand, I really get a lot from these chats, it's like double therapy. When I see mary I always have a million and 1 questions afterwards, I have that here too, opening my eyes that bit further helps me to understand more.

Unfortunately I have a lot going on right now so will have to leave this again for a few days or so, i really dislike the whole stop/start that's been going on lately. My youngest son is stopping with me at present and he needs my attention. There have been things that have happened recently that have led to this. He is most welcome and it appears he is golden child no longer in his mothers eyes. I'm not going to far into it as this is not the thread to do that, I'm just being honest and hoping you do not find me rude.

I shall return.

LT.

[Harri]

This topic reached the post limit and has been locked.  The discussion continues here: 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341460.msg13090383#msg13090383

Thank you.