responding to threats of leaving

[Depression = 72% of members]

This past weekend my partner did not feel well cared for.  I have been overloaded at work lately and needed some time this weekend to catch up.  In addition, my partner encouraged me to go do my hobby Saturday morning, since we had no plans and she expected that she and her son would just sleep in anyway.  I reminded her I have work and she said I shouldn't give up my hobby for work (weirdly...).  I went off Saturday morning for practice.  On my way home I was delayed a little bit by weather and had a couple of errands to run.  All in all, I got home maybe an hour later than normal but had been keeping my partner informed about what was happening the whole time.  When home, I spend a bunch of time shoveling, making dinner, doing laundry.  I wanted to make a special dish that my partner had asked for.  I also tried to offer her tea and anything else since she was feeling poorly.  I made dinner and she decided she wasn't hungry.  The sauce that came with it had tomatoes and she had been having some stomach problems and thought it might aggravate her stomach.  I mentioned to her before making the meal that it had tomatoes and she said it was fine.  Only after she said I can't eat that after asking her before hand.  I left some of the dish sauce free on her request.  When I offered them to her she said that I should have them.  The next day she wanted some without sauce but I explained that she had told me to eat them, at which point she became upset.  Since I was busy Saturday I needed to catch up on work on Sunday morning.  So I got up early and put in some time.  Again, we had no plans for Sunday and I thought it wouldn't be a big issue to catch up a little while also doing a few odds and ends and taking care of her.  After getting up she promptly got into a fight with her son about not getting enough activity and demanded he come with her to the rec center.  I offered to take him to the ice rink but she said that she was taking care of the problem now.  They both spend the next three hours out having lunch, going to the book store, and chatting.  Later that night she said that she was very disappointed that I hadn't taken care of her this weekend.  I tried to offer some counters to that but she shot that down.  Instead, she said that she had to instruct me on everything this weekend and she was tired of having to manage the house.  Following that she said that she wasn't feeling good about the relationship and blandly stated that we'll probably break up when our lease is up this summer.  I tried to listen compassionately and pointed out that I should have probably stayed home from my hobby to help out a bit more.  Then she accused me of smiling and not showing any emotion when she said she was going to leave.

I'm not sure exactly how to handle this.  She's made threats to leave ever since we started dating some years ago.  I just don't buy it anymore so I'm just not going to get all riled up when she suggests it.  I did my best to not JADE and tired to recognize her emotions in the moment.  To this she replied that she knows how she feels and wants to know what I am going to do about it, then accused me of looking like a deer in the headlights.

As far as exchanges go, this wasn't too bad.  I did what I could to show support and not get worked up.  Things were generally calm the rest of the night but the next day we got into more discussions about my hobby and how much time I spend there.  She wanted to know forever and always how many days a year I would want to have extended time there.  When I suggested there were times I'd like to spend all day she said she couldn't support that.  We eventually got to a point in the conversation where we agreed that it should be a flexible thing that we can talk through ahead of time whenever it comes up.

I am feeling pretty lonely lately.  She's been sick which usually exacerbates her mental state.  When she's splitting with me she usually spends more time with her son.  I'm happy to see them spend time together but feel very much left out.  Honestly, there are times when its easier for me to pretend that I'm single again.

Just feeling generally low today.  I work my butt off for her and my step son but get no recognition for my efforts, only complaints that I'm not doing enough.  She will thank me for picking up the groceries or other little tasks but then will turn around and tell me that I'm not a real parent and that I need to do something big to make her feel loving to me again.  It's really discouraging.

[usagi]

This past weekend my partner did not feel well cared for.  I have been overloaded at work lately and needed some time this weekend to catch up.  In addition, my partner encouraged me to go do my hobby Saturday morning, since we had no plans and she expected that she and her son would just sleep in anyway.  I reminded her I have work and she said I shouldn't give up my hobby for work (weirdly...).  I went off Saturday morning for practice.  On my way home I was delayed a little bit by weather and had a couple of errands to run.  All in all, I got home maybe an hour later than normal but had been keeping my partner informed about what was happening the whole time.  When home, I spend a bunch of time shoveling, making dinner, doing laundry.  I wanted to make a special dish that my partner had asked for.  I also tried to offer her tea and anything else since she was feeling poorly.  I made dinner and she decided she wasn't hungry.  The sauce that came with it had tomatoes and she had been having some stomach problems and thought it might aggravate her stomach.  I mentioned to her before making the meal that it had tomatoes and she said it was fine.  Only after she said I can't eat that after asking her before hand.  I left some of the dish sauce free on her request.  When I offered them to her she said that I should have them.  The next day she wanted some without sauce but I explained that she had told me to eat them, at which point she became upset.  Since I was busy Saturday I needed to catch up on work on Sunday morning.  So I got up early and put in some time.  Again, we had no plans for Sunday and I thought it wouldn't be a big issue to catch up a little while also doing a few odds and ends and taking care of her.  After getting up she promptly got into a fight with her son about not getting enough activity and demanded he come with her to the rec center.  I offered to take him to the ice rink but she said that she was taking care of the problem now.  They both spend the next three hours out having lunch, going to the book store, and chatting.  Later that night she said that she was very disappointed that I hadn't taken care of her this weekend.  I tried to offer some counters to that but she shot that down.  Instead, she said that she had to instruct me on everything this weekend and she was tired of having to manage the house.  Following that she said that she wasn't feeling good about the relationship and blandly stated that we'll probably break up when our lease is up this summer.  I tried to listen compassionately and pointed out that I should have probably stayed home from my hobby to help out a bit more.  Then she accused me of smiling and not showing any emotion when she said she was going to leave.

I'm not sure exactly how to handle this.  She's made threats to leave ever since we started dating some years ago.  I just don't buy it anymore so I'm just not going to get all riled up when she suggests it.  I did my best to not JADE and tired to recognize her emotions in the moment.  To this she replied that she knows how she feels and wants to know what I am going to do about it, then accused me of looking like a deer in the headlights.

As far as exchanges go, this wasn't too bad.  I did what I could to show support and not get worked up.  Things were generally calm the rest of the night but the next day we got into more discussions about my hobby and how much time I spend there.  She wanted to know forever and always how many days a year I would want to have extended time there.  When I suggested there were times I'd like to spend all day she said she couldn't support that.  We eventually got to a point in the conversation where we agreed that it should be a flexible thing that we can talk through ahead of time whenever it comes up.

I am feeling pretty lonely lately.  She's been sick which usually exacerbates her mental state.  When she's splitting with me she usually spends more time with her son.  I'm happy to see them spend time together but feel very much left out.  Honestly, there are times when its easier for me to pretend that I'm single again.

Just feeling generally low today.  I work my butt off for her and my step son but get no recognition for my efforts, only complaints that I'm not doing enough.  She will thank me for picking up the groceries or other little tasks but then will turn around and tell me that I'm not a real parent and that I need to do something big to make her feel loving to me again.  It's really discouraging.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[kells76]

Hey usagi,

All that would wear anyone down. It sounds like even on a "good" day, you still notice and feel the loss of gratitude. Maybe you feel taken for granted?

Something that has taken me some time to wrap my head around is this. As human beings, we're wired to believe what's communicated to us, whether through our sensory input or verbally. For example, we don't go through life second-guessing ourselves every time we're about to sit on a chair: "Sure, it looks like it's there, but is it really?" It's similar to when we hear someone tell us something. Generally, if we hear someone say "sounds like it's raining up north", we go with that, believe it to be a statement of factual content, and don't immediately think "Oh sure, they'd say that, but who really knows the hidden message". And perhaps the phenomenon of credulity is more pronounced with a loved one, or someone trusted.

It makes sense, really, from a "normal human being" point of view, that you'd hear your partner communicate things like "I've got it covered", "I'm not hungry", "Head to your class", and treat those as normal statements of fact. And then you'd hear her say "you don't do enough", and that, too, we instinctually treat as a statement of fact.

She has many BPD traits and behaviors. That means that globally, across her personality, she has impairments in thinking, feeling, perceiving, emotional management, cause-and-effect connection, attribution of causality, and rational processes.

The way "generally normal" people communicate, might not be how her brain, with BPD in the mix, operates.

And anyway, even for "generally normal" people, what one person says about you, your motivations, and your intentions, doesn't define you or the universe.

She likely has a distorted perception and experience of your offers, words, and deeds... not based in the reality of who you are or what you do, but based on her rapidly changing, intense inner emotions, that she struggles to realize come from inside of her.

I want to challenge you to find some things that you posted that she said/communicated, and do some analysis on them, knowing what you know about BPD.

I'll go first  

You said:

I did my best to not JADE and tired to recognize her emotions in the moment.

She replied:

she knows how she feels and wants to know what I am going to do about it, then accused me of looking like a deer in the headlights.

Analysis: did you really look like a deer in the headlights? Think through it. Maybe you did, maybe you didn't, but the bigger issue is: she asserts that you looked a certain way. Can you add a beat in there, before going to credulity, to say: her experience and perception doesn't define me?

OK, now you  

...

What I'm getting at is part of the bigger idea that: look, the way she feels about you and your "support" doesn't depend on how well you were her servant.

You could've done everything she asked, and she could've still felt "unsupported" and like "you weren't parenting well enough". That's because her feelings and perceptions come from inside of her.

This gives you the freedom to live with integrity, with your hands on the wheel of your own life, knowing that you can make choices that are good for you because she's going to feel whatever she feels regardless (generally speaking) of how well you do what she wants. (Caveat: of course, we can always make things worse   but that's not the focus here)

It will probably feel uncomfortable at first. She's used to you checking in, going above and beyond, not putting yourself first occasionally, and taking you for granted. When you change your part in the dynamic, it's possible she won't like it. But like you said:

She's made threats to leave ever since we started dating some years ago.  I just don't buy it anymore so I'm just not going to get all riled up when she suggests it.

...

Any of that kind of making sense, or sounding try-able?

[usagi]

I can do this =)

What I did:

I tried to listen compassionately and pointed out that I should have probably stayed home from my hobby to help out a bit more.

What she said:

Then she accused me of smiling and not showing any emotion when she said she was going to leave.

Analysis:
Folks with BPD are very sensitive to body language and sometimes over interpret what they see.  I'm doing what I can to be present and affirming of her emotions, even if she doesn't feel that.

This has become a theme lately.  Last night we were just laying in bed reading and getting ready to fall asleep.  I put my book down and gave her a big hug and a kiss on the cheek with some snuggles afterwards.  Then she started going down her rabbit hole.  "I don't feel anything for you anymore and I think it's over."  I replied that would be incredibly sad.  She asked why I hadn't shown any emotion in December when I tried to break up with her.  I said that just because I didn't cry in front of her didn't mean I wasn't heartbroken.  She kept spiraling and saying that all her dreams were gone and that she no longer thought about us growing old together so what was the point.  It went on like this for a while.  She also kept saying that I'd need to "do something big" for her to feel anything for me again.  Earlier in the evening she asked if I would forego my hobby this weekend to spend time with her.  I said that if she really needed time with me I would.  I've gone more often this past month and am wondering if it's too much for her to bear.  She asked me last night what I was going to do.  I replied that I was going to show her I love her in every way that I can.  She told me to get out of the bedroom that I was just making her feel worse.  Then she asked me to go to a hotel right that second.  I said that I wouldn't and that I would just sleep in the guest bedroom, which is quickly becoming my bedroom.  She then went through the motions of getting some luggage and said that she'd go to a hotel instead.  I heard some rustling for a bit but then she eventually went back to bed and turned the lights off.  Later, I saw her poke her head into the bedroom to see if I was awake.  It honestly reminded me of a little kid checking in on their parents.  That happened a couple of times so I got up and tried to give her a hug.  She didn't accept it but did go to bed with me in her room.  She made a few more statements about how it was over then fell asleep.  Later that night she woke up and asked me to go sleep with the dogs in the guest bed.  This was OK since I tend to toss and turn and we do this sometimes so she can sleep.  She said she was sorry and that she loved me very much.  I said I loved her and went to the other room.

This morning she doesn't want to talk to me.  I told her that I needed her over text and that I love her.  She asked why I hadn't said those things last night, which I actually did.

I think it's going to be a rough evening with lots of circular talk.  "Why don't you show any emotion?!"  "You'll have to do something big to change things!"

I'm so tired.  Work has been overwhelming lately and this is just piling it on. 

[once removed]

Then she started going down her rabbit hole.  "I don't feel anything for you anymore and I think it's over."  I replied that would be incredibly sad.  She asked why I hadn't shown any emotion in December when I tried to break up with her.  I said that just because I didn't cry in front of her didn't mean I wasn't heartbroken.  She kept spiraling and saying that all her dreams were gone and that she no longer thought about us growing old together so what was the point.  It went on like this for a while.  She also kept saying that I'd need to "do something big" for her to feel anything for me again.  Earlier in the evening she asked if I would forego my hobby this weekend to spend time with her.

i dont know if im stating the obvious here, but it seems clear to me that she is really hung up about the issues surrounding the hobby, your threatening to leave, her threatening to leave. reading a few threads back, it seemed like the hobby was sort of a stand in; it represented the thing you would choose over her, the thing that stood between her and you. the fact that it makes sense for you to, well, have a hobby, was lost, because having a hobby wasnt the point. when she gave you an ultimatum, it was a trap, and not giving up that thing confirmed (to her) her fears.

a lot of this (all of it?) sounds like she is still testing you, both for reassurance, and for further confirmation of those fears, at the same time.

in other words, pretty classical bpd stuff, but it seems as though shes kind of spiraling. forgive me, but can you remind us of what sort of mental health treatment shes receiving, if any? i believe you said she had done therapy in the past?

you cant resolve this for her, but you can try to reassure her, in small and/or big ways, just showing love, and looking for ways to connect. is there anything valid about what she says about you showing "no emotion"? ive been there with my ex, where its as if no matter how you sit, no matter what expression, they just seem to become even more riled up. our partners have a tendency to want us to match their energy when theyre expressing hurt or frustration...and theres a delicate balance between listening, making them feel heard, even to some extent being a target, as opposed to really getting in the drama with them, which we dont want to do, and doesnt help them. calm is generally good when it comes to communicating with anyone, but if you feel like youre going crazy, and the other person is calm, it can feel condescending, or it could make you feel even "crazier" because your own emotions dont match theirs.

[usagi]

Those seem like valid points, once removed.

This is actually something that my therapist has brought up.  That she is completely stuck on what happened this past December.  At the time, and still, I told her that I was feeling like she was just minimizing and not listening to what I had to say.  So things felt very broken to me in that anytime I had an issue with the relationship there was no way I could express that without getting push back from her.

I think I need to have a re-hash or something about what happened in December.  She's not getting something about how that all played out, including how we came to some resolutions.  The only reason I didn't keep to my stance on breaking up was that she owned some of her behavior and didn't put everything on me.  That was enough hope for me to continue.

I feel like she is expecting, like you say, to get caught up in the drama of what she's saying.  That I should get down on my knees and cry and beg her to not go.  If I don't do that then I'm somehow not experiencing any emotions.  I try to keep a neutral face/body language when I'm listening.  Maybe a different approach?

She is not receiving any mental health treatment.  She did back in her early 20s for a time.  She said that her room mates were concerned when she'd scream in her sleep.  So she did some work on her abandonment issues.  Since then she's said that she did that work and likes who she is now.  But she was definitely down on herself last night too saying that she doesn't deserve anyone to really love her.  She said that she's had bad experiences with therapists since then and has no faith in that system.  It's pretty sad.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Usagi,

I agree with your assessment. It seems like she is stuck on what happened in December and keeps circling back to it. My own uBPDw had some similar behaviors when I started enforcing boundaries 7-8 months ago. It all comes down to the pwBPD wanting things to go back to the way they were before you started having healthy boundaries. This is to be expected. Your capitulation and caretaking were one of their key coping mechanisms that are no longer available to them, so you not JADEing and refusing to engage in crazy-making behaviors must be very frustrating to them. She will eventually get over it...mostly.

My uBPDw took a few months to adjust and things have gotten much better since then. She still has problematic behaviors, but I am not put through days of misery anymore. Nor am I afraid all the time. She has gradually accepted that I have boundaries that will not change, but still tests them from time to time.

Like you, I have been working hard on trying to be emotionally supportive and validating her emotions while not validating false narratives. During these times it is difficult for me to remain calm as she can get quite agitated, but I have been doing a pretty good job and am getting better at it. I also have been accused of being emotionless (or even of being narcissistic) when I am trying to SET or validate while being careful not to JADE. However, I believe what really upsets her is that I am no longer letting her escalate me (me JADEing). My calmness, and my physical absence if she becomes abusive, fails to give her the release that she is looking for. Since I will not be her emotional punching bag, she has to either learn to self-soothe or find another Favorite Person to be that punching bag. So far, it seems like she is working on the self-soothing but still has a long way to go.

Hang in there and stick to your guns. Things will get better the longer that you are consistent with your boundaries and patient with your validation. The new dynamic will take some time for her to adjust to.

HurtAndTired

[usagi]

Thanks HurtAndTired,

It's nice to hear some encouragement that I'm on the right track even though it's sucky right now.  I have seen this acronym "SET" before and haven't found that in the tools.  Can you point me to some description?

I'm trying not to dread her coming home to night but I do.  I'm expecting some long dramatic conversations, which are extremely tiring.

Thanks for the support everyone!

[SaltyDawg]

It's nice to hear some encouragement that I'm on the right track even though it's sucky right now.  I have seen this acronym "SET" before and haven't found that in the tools.  Can you point me to some description?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0 

Support Empathy Truth - style of communication.

If your pwBPD is dysregulated, drop the truth portion, if they are regulated, use the truth portion - there is a time and place for each of these tools.

A lot more tools can be found here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Thanks SaltyDawg.

One of the topics in that thread was about "Stop using those psychology tools on me"

I was looking for more on that particular topic because I keep getting that from my partner.  Can you help me locate that?

Thanks!

[once removed]

One of the topics in that thread was about "Stop using those psychology tools on me"

I was looking for more on that particular topic because I keep getting that from my partner.

oh. okay. that says a lot.

i cant tell you how many times i have seen members run into this when theyre trying the communication skills.

the "trick" with the communication skills is sincerity, and authenticity. you cannot validate someone by trying to "use a technique" on them. anyone will see right through it. theyll feel talked down to. thats why, for example, its easier to think in terms of "not being invalidating" as opposed to "be validating".

communication should be natural, and in the context of just, how the two of you talk, and how you talk to each other. i might have personalities in my life that i know require more validation than the average person, but i never think to myself "validate this person".

somehow, though, doing that takes practice. but i think youll find that when you get there, that youre neither walking on eggshells, nor breaking eggs, but communicating authentically; sounding like yourself.

i think if shes saying youre showing "no emotion" and also "using psychology tools on her", what shes saying is she finds something about your approach invalidating.

[kells76]

I feel like she is expecting, like you say, to get caught up in the drama of what she's saying.  That I should get down on my knees and cry and beg her to not go.  If I don't do that then I'm somehow not experiencing any emotions.  I try to keep a neutral face/body language when I'm listening.  Maybe a different approach?

So she says something like "you're a robot, you're talking weird"?

That's validate-able.

"Babe, you're right -- I am talking differently. I'm trying to be a better listener." Or: "It seems like my face is ____________? Yeah, I am trying to concentrate to hear you better."

If she replies with:

"It's so weird, I hate it, why can't you just be normal"

You can validate that too:

"It would be weird to feel like I was talking differently."

...

The fact that she doesn't like your new approach doesn't mean it isn't working or you shouldn't do it.

That being said, sometimes having "appropriate" body language/facial expressions can help -- those are validating communication, too, not just the words that are said.

As you put yourself in the position of imagining what it'd be like for your significant other to "suddenly" be interacting with you differently, and you can't put your finger on it, and it isn't necessarily bad, but it's not familiar/comfortable... wouldn't that be weird? What facial expressions or body language would you want her to have, if you were telling her that? Maybe: concern, head tilt, slight lean forward, quieter voice...?

This isn't saying "mind-read the unmeetable needs she has for impossibly perfect body language, and do exactly what she wants".

It's more double checking yourself. Is there something valid in her feeling like things are weird (even though yes, it's her saying that)? Can you separate out the fact that it's her raising the issue, from the issue itself? If there isn't something valid there, then there isn't -- but if there is something valid there, it's important to deal with.

Going back to this:

I think I need to have a re-hash or something about what happened in December.  She's not getting something about how that all played out, including how we came to some resolutions.  The only reason I didn't keep to my stance on breaking up was that she owned some of her behavior and didn't put everything on me.  That was enough hope for me to continue.

What would be your best-case outcome if you went back to her and did a "rehash"?

What is the most likely outcome? Is it the same as or different from your best-case/hoped-for outcome?

Did your therapist have any thoughts about the idea of going back with your partner and discussing December again?

Remember that if your partner has BPD, then she inherently isn't going to get a lot of stuff.

One of the topics in that thread was about "Stop using those psychology tools on me"

I was looking for more on that particular topic because I keep getting that from my partner.

That might circle back to the idea that even "you're being weird, you're talking like a therapist" has some validate-ability -- there is a target for emotional validation in there. She feels weird and disconnected from you -- you aren't doing what you always have done. Can you validate the valid: "I am trying new ways to listen to you better. Yeah, it might sound weird."

Humor can sometimes also defuse that kind of stuff (though it depends on the individual and the situation): "I'd make a pretty bad therapist, huh!" Or: "Maybe I should lay on the couch instead!" Humor is triciker, I think, than emotional validation.

There's also straightforward agreement: "Yeah, I am trying some new tools. You're right."

At some point, if emotional validation doesn't bring about deescalation and positive connection, you may need a boundary about how long you keep talking with her (but one you articulate to yourself, not her): "Hey, I'm going to go on a walk/get some juice in the kitchen/go to the bathroom/run an errand, I'll be back in a bit".

---

Edit: sorry, cross posted with once removed. Yes, we're on the same page that there may be something inadvertently invalidating about your approach... but that doesn't mean it isn't a good thing to keep trying, more that we can help you search for the "accidental invalidation". Agreeing that it would be weird to encounter your new approach validates her emotional experience.

[once removed]

I think I need to have a re-hash or something about what happened in December.  She's not getting something about how that all played out, including how we came to some resolutions.  The only reason I didn't keep to my stance on breaking up was that she owned some of her behavior and didn't put everything on me.  That was enough hope for me to continue.

i wanted to add, i think a revisiting of this is called for. it seems like thats what she keeps bringing it back to, and thats probably not a conversation you want to have when shes spiraling. it seems like a conversation, maybe conversations, to bring up in a time of calm and relative peace.

i wouldnt go into it expecting her to see it your way, or to any longer agree with the resolutions you came to before. i would start the conversation, or conversations, with the intent of primarily listening; both for the sake of making her feel heard, and for getting an even better sense of where shes coming from (to know how to proceed). what i would be armed with is questions aimed at both. it would probably be a short conversation that plants a seed, and then id revisit it in a few days.

i do think its possible that some healing from this can occur, and that theres an opportunity to get on the same page, or, at least, a better page. the problem is it doesnt seem like now is a very good time.

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks SaltyDawg.

One of the topics in that thread was about "Stop using those psychology tools on me"

I was looking for more on that particular topic because I keep getting that from my partner.  Can you help me locate that?

Thanks!

You're welcome.

I also get that from my BPD wife, she tells me tells me that exact phrase, and our current couple's therapist supports my wife in reinforcing my wife, in the capacity of flying monkey, to not treat my wife as a specimen (*ouch*).

So, it is a delicate dance, you still use the tools, especially the boundary of not tolerating bad behaviors; however, you need to find synonyms to those psychological terms that are not triggering for your pwBPD.

Even the word 'triggering' is very triggering for my wife.  So I use expressions like "I am sorry for setting you off", "I am sorry for emotionally activating you" (she no longer likes this one), instead of "I am sorry for triggering you".  I personally like the word triggering, as it is the most accurate description.  If she is yelling at me or the children, I ask her to "stop yelling", even though she has on several occasions, when she is dysregulated, yelled back, "I am not yelling" while she is still yelling, ahh, the insanity of it...  When she does this, I usually physically position myself between her and the children, wave the children to go to another room, and I deal with my wife's yelling, by validating my wife's feelings, until she calms down - she has gotten much much better with therapy for anger management; however, she still has her moments of severe dysregulation.

Likewise when she is on the verge of becoming emotionally dysregulated, she hates that term, so our former therapist said, "your losing it", "don't lose your sh!t", and our current couple's therapist has said, "you are not being rational" - I would never say those things to my wife, as that would only further inflame her emotions.

So when my wife is dysregulated, I will only validate her feelings with support and empathy, as the truth will trigger her and then 'crazy' continues...  Only when she becomes regulated will I use SET, otherwise I will only use support and empathy, using "I" statements only and never start a statement with "you".  Example "I am sorry you feel that that I don't do anything for you, it must be incredibly upsetting and frustrating that I you feel that I am not doing what you want" - this way I validate her feelings, and then describe those feelings in an exaggerated manner towards her.  If this were a normal person, I might say something like "Can you help me understand why you are annoyed at me?"

When she is regulated, and I am using a common complaint of borderlines towards their partners that they are not doing anything....  "I am sorry you feel that I don't do anything for you, it must be incredibly upsetting and frustrating to you.  I did a, b, c, d, e, & f - what else can I do for you?"  For the truth portion, I usually list things that do not match my wife's version of her feelings based facts (I do not do anything).  I counter that with my version of the truth, by listing everything I have done for her that day, or previous day if it is the following morning, which counters her 'nothing' statement by listing what I have done.  She knows it is true, so she cannot make a comeback on it, and I am supportive of her by asking what else I can do for her in addition to everything else I have done.  This usually shuts down my wife's false narrative, as she knows it does not match the reality of the situation only when she is regulated.

Circling back to you not using psychological tools are psychobabble, here are a couple of interesting articles on the topic:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/a-marriage-of-equals/202308/are-you-weaponizing-mental-health-terminology

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-devices-our-selves/202305/when-therapy-speak-creeps-into-our-relationships

Take care with self care.

SD

[usagi]

So my pwBPD and I had a LONG conversation last night and I got a lot of information.  This was after she had texted me before coming home late from a friend's place saying she didn't want to talk at all.

It's very clear to me now that she feels like our relationship took a turn for the worse after I started enforcing my boundary about my hobby.  I had tried to do that last summer in July when there was a big workshop with people coming from all over.  At that time I folded and ended up spending time with her instead of what I intended on doing.  Then this December/January I said that I was not going to quit doing my hobby.  This past weekend, I spent time doing my hobby then had to spend time catching up on work.

She had a cold this weekend and wanted me to take care of her and entertain my step son.  So now she feels like I put hobby and work above her and it's too painful.

Here are some of the things she said yesterday.

"Why can't you say 'I am sorry that I ruined our dreams'?"
We ended up talking about what happened in December, because she can't let go of it.  I told her, grudgingly, that I was sorry that I didn't stay at the house and talk through what I was feeling and needed.  To her question above I said that I see what happened differently and that we both played a part.

"I love you a lot but can't be with you because it's too painful."
She kept pressing me to figure out where I would go live if she wanted to break up.  I asked if she didn't love me anymore and this was her response.  Again, she views this weekend as a huge betrayal.  I responded with the question "because you feel like I am putting other things above you?" and she said yes.

"You need to do something big to fix this!"
I asked her what that meant for her.  She said that "I'm not going to tell you, you have to figure it out for yourself!".  I sort of take this to mean that she wants me to spend less time at my hobby, which is frustrating because I'm already spending less time than I need.  She seems more or less OK with me going once a week but the real tension is when people come from out of town and I want to spend more time on these special occasions.

"I want what we had before you left me for your hobby."
I asked if she felt that I was going to frequently.  She said that it was really about what happened this weekend when I went to my hobby and did some work.

"You put me 3rd this weekend over your hobby and work and that's not OK."
I said that I should have just stayed home from my hobby and just gotten my work done so I could have taken care of her and been more available.

"You screwed up this past weekend so maybe you shouldn't go to your hobby and be with your friends this weekend."
I normally get home by maybe 1:30 or 2:00 on a Saturday.  This weekend people are coming from out of town and I told her I wanted to go to lunch afterwards.  That puts me home between 3 and 4.  She responded "that's all day!".

"You need to decide what you want."
She's said this many times.  She's said that I should just leave and focus on my job and hobby and be happy.  It's either those things or her and her son in her eye.

"I am open to you showing that you won't disregard me and hurt me."
She's said that I abandoned her this weekend for my hobby and work.  I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that.  I've tried to sort of repeat it back to her but then she accuses me of "therapist speak".

I feel like this is a boundary test in a big way.  She hasn't said as much but my impression is that she's expecting me to give up on visiting with my friends this weekend to show her that she's really the most important to me.  I'm honestly tempted to do that.  I might actually be able to take off work and go be with them tomorrow.  That way I could get in my time with them and then be free to spend time with my partner this weekend.

[kells76]

I feel like this is a boundary test in a big way.  She hasn't said as much but my impression is that she's expecting me to give up on visiting with my friends this weekend to show her that she's really the most important to me.  I'm honestly tempted to do that.  I might actually be able to take off work and go be with them tomorrow.  That way I could get in my time with them and then be free to spend time with my partner this weekend.

What do you think that would demonstrate to her?

[usagi]

I think it would show her that she is important to me but that I also need to make time with my friends.

[SaltyDawg]

"Why can't you say 'I am sorry that I ruined our dreams'?"

Consider saying "I am sorry that you feel that I ruined your dreams."  This way you validate her feelings without validating the false narrative where you see it differently.

"I love you a lot but can't be with you because it's too painful."

She kept pressing me to figure out where I would go live if she wanted to break up.

Please refresh my memory on who is legally responsible where you live?  If you both are, encourage her to do the leaving, not you, by saying something along the lines of (optional, if it is true)"I love you as well."  (do something along these lines in your own words) "I hear you, that you feel it is too painful to be with me.  I don't want to keep you here in pain - I am okay if you want to move out."  Indicate, if she is the one who wants to break up, it is up to her to move out, not you, as you didn't ask for this, unless this is not what you want, or where you are living is exclusively her legal responsibility.
 

Again, she views this weekend as a huge betrayal.  I responded with the question "because you feel like I am putting other things above you?" and she said yes.

"You need to do something big to fix this!"
I asked her what that meant for her.  She said that "I'm not going to tell you, you have to figure it out for yourself!".  I sort of take this to mean that she wants me to spend less time at my hobby, which is frustrating because I'm already spending less time than I need.  She seems more or less OK with me going once a week but the real tension is when people come from out of town and I want to spend more time on these special occasions.

Being mindful that you need to stay true to yourself - your hobby is part of who you are, and you should not have to give it up unless it consumes your time and attention at the expense of giving her attention to her emotional needs in the form of her love languages.  I have only come across one marriage advice site that actually quantifies the time you should spend together as a couple, and it specifies doing 15-30 hours per week together, with half doing her love languages/emotional needs, and half doing your love languages/emotional needs.  As long as you are doing 7-15 hours per week of her love language/emotional needs anything more than this, I feel that she is having you try to fill her 'persistent feeling of emptiness'.  In fact I encourage you to ask her if she feels empty inside - when I did this, my wife felt as though I understood her a whole lot more.

"I want what we had before you left me for your hobby."
I asked if she felt that I was going to frequently.  She said that it was really about what happened this weekend when I went to my hobby and did some work.

"You put me 3rd this weekend over your hobby and work and that's not OK."
I said that I should have just stayed home from my hobby and just gotten my work done so I could have taken care of her and been more available.

This might be a legitimate concern of hers as I can see her point of view, if you did not allocate any time for her during the week.  My question to you, is how much time have you spent with her exclusively  for the past 7 days?

"You screwed up this past weekend so maybe you shouldn't go to your hobby and be with your friends this weekend."
I normally get home by maybe 1:30 or 2:00 on a Saturday.  This weekend people are coming from out of town and I told her I wanted to go to lunch afterwards.  That puts me home between 3 and 4.  She responded "that's all day!".

I can definitely hear her frustration with you, not allocating enough time for her.  Perhaps, offer up a compromise that attends to her needs, and to take her out on a nice dinner date with a play/movie afterward/activity afterwards, from 4PM until midnight, and all day on Sunday with her fulfilling her love languages/emotional needs?

"You need to decide what you want."
She's said this many times.  She's said that I should just leave and focus on my job and hobby and be happy.  It's either those things or her and her son in her eye.

"I am open to you showing that you won't disregard me and hurt me."
She's said that I abandoned her this weekend for my hobby and work.  I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that.  I've tried to sort of repeat it back to her but then she accuses me of "therapist speak".

She is speaking very clearly, and she is practically begging for more attention from you.  You need to make time for her 15-30 hours per week AND another 15 hours per week for her son, this is on top of the 56 hours for sleeping, so that leaves 67 hours for work/exercise/commuting/eating/self-care/etc.

My personal recommendation is to figure out a way to spend at least 15 hours this weekend with her, and the balance to use for your hobby/sleeping/self-care.

I feel like this is a boundary test in a big way.  She hasn't said as much but my impression is that she's expecting me to give up on visiting with my friends this weekend to show her that she's really the most important to me.  I'm honestly tempted to do that.  I might actually be able to take off work and go be with them tomorrow.  That way I could get in my time with them and then be free to spend time with my partner this weekend.

Based on what you have shared, I too feel like it is a 'big test' for you - she wants to see your commitment level.  If you want to do both, explain to her, that you will be spending x amount of time with her, y amount of time on your hobby, and z amount of time doing everything else - show her that x amount of time on her needs definitely exceeds y amount of time on your hobby so are putting her as a priority.  I think you have come up with an excellent compromise - communicate and frame it in a way that you think your partner can agree to, and then run with it.  Also, encourage her to have her own hobbies, and/or invite her to join you in yours, this way she can fill your love bank by doing and by doing the hobby together you are spending even more time with her.

Side Note:  The program I am referring to is "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Bill Harley, who has >60 years of experience in this area and was introduced to me by one of my former licensed counselor/therapist, who said she herself was BPD, who recommended this to me for my wife - this is one of the older systems out there predating most of the other newer and more popular ones.  This program has critics as it is very transactional in nature by specifying minimum amount times to do certain things, demands complete transparency, somewhat rigid compliance with rules (minimum number of hours, etc.) that are more complicated than most of the other programs, and more enmeshment than most making it very attractive for borderlines who need firm guidance.  Since it predates DBT, Gottman, and most others, it does not have psychology terms in it that most are familiar with.  In my personal opinion, making this ideal for our pwBPD.  My wife, has read the program; however, she has only implemented small parts of it, and the ones that she has implemented has been successful.

Good luck on your 'test'.

Take care.

SD

[once removed]

I feel like this is a boundary test in a big way

its also a test of how the two of you resolve conflict.

to you, not giving up the hobby is a boundary. something that giving up would be bad for your mental health, might make you resentful...could go so far as to be bad for your relationship, just bad all around. theres the principle of the thing, but its about the hobby itself. if it were anything else, wed be talking.

to her, it represents something youve chosen over her. and, at least in effect, you have; its a hill youre willing to die on. sure; its a straw man, that if she were more reasonable about, she would realize the hobby in no way threatens your relationship, but for her, the fixation on the hobby isnt about the hobby, its about "if it really came down to it, you would choose ______ over me".

what is valid (on her end) in all of that? its a normal human need to believe that your spouse "puts you first". thats your validation target. its something that you can demonstrate. its something that can tangibly build trust.

giving up the hobby (one possible resolution) would be highly unlikely to soothe this for her, at least not in any permanent sense. it isnt the answer. but usually, one person finding the right way to "let the other person win", is the best way to resolve intractable conflict.

[usagi]

Thanks SaltyDawg,

Consider saying "I am sorry that you feel that I ruined your dreams."  This way you validate her feelings without validating the false narrative where you see it differently.

I've tried this in the past and she hates it.  Any time I start the sentence with "I'm sorry that you" it doesn't matter what comes next.  She says that it's not a real apology and just shifts the blame to her.

Please refresh my memory on who is legally responsible where you live?

We are both listed on the lease agreement so my take is that we are both responsible for the rent/upkeep of the house.
 

As long as you are doing 7-15 hours per week of her love language/emotional needs anything more than this, I feel that she is having you try to fill her 'persistent feeling of emptiness'.

I should really do the math on this.  But she does have some physical activities that she does every day that take up 1 to 1.5 hours.  So that's 7 to 10.5 hours a week for her self care.  My hobby doesn't exceed that.  This past weekend I was gone for a little over 6 hours on Saturday and had intended on working a couple of hours Sunday morning.  After she got upset and left with her son for 4 hours I kept working for a bit.  I was going to spend time occupying him but she was too hurt to listen.

I can definitely hear her frustration with you, not allocating enough time for her.

Yeah I finally came to that conclusion after talking with her last night.  It's unfortunate that she had to go through this spiral to get that message out.  I had to really hang in and keep asking questions to really figure it out.

[usagi]

Thanks once removed,

to her, it represents something youve chosen over her. and, at least in effect, you have; its a hill youre willing to die on. sure; its a straw man, that if she were more reasonable about, she would realize the hobby in no way threatens your relationship, but for her, the fixation on the hobby isnt about the hobby, its about "if it really came down to it, you would choose ______ over me".

This exactly the language she has used in the past.  It's either the other thing(s) or me.  There is no in between.

But I think what she really means/needs is for me to fill up her "quality time" bucket.

I did decide to take off tomorrow to spend time with my friends.  And I'm taking her to a place we like to go overnight on Saturday.  She's over the moon.  Seems like I played this hand right.

[SaltyDawg]

I've tried this in the past and she hates it.  Any time I start the sentence with "I'm sorry that you" it doesn't matter what comes next.  She says that it's not a real apology and just shifts the blame to her.

I can see her point on this as you are apologizing for the way she is feeling. Perhaps be a little creative, and validate how she is feeling.

Instead of saying "I'm sorry you feel that way".  Perhaps reframe the apology to empathy/support, and say "That sounds so frustrating, how can I help you feel better?" (or, "..., can I give you a hug to make you feel better?") - of course this risks a circular argument where she may still demand an apology.

We are both listed on the lease agreement so my take is that we are both responsible for the rent/upkeep of the house.

The last time my wife made this threat, since we own the home together, I told her that 'she is free to go; however, I am going to stay here for the children' - She wanted me to leave, I refused, but gave her the option to leave, it stopped her from making those threats again.
 

I should really do the math on this.  But she does have some physical activities that she does every day that take up 1 to 1.5 hours.  So that's 7 to 10.5 hours a week for her self care.  My hobby doesn't exceed that.  This past weekend I was gone for a little over 6 hours on Saturday and had intended on working a couple of hours Sunday morning.  After she got upset and left with her son for 4 hours I kept working for a bit.  I was going to spend time occupying him but she was too hurt to listen.

After you do the math, and when she is regulated, gently bring up the topic, especially after or towards the tail end of a wonderful weekend you are planning, and show her that you have time for both you hobby and her.

Yeah I finally came to that conclusion after talking with her last night.  It's unfortunate that she had to go through this spiral to get that message out.  I had to really hang in and keep asking questions to really figure it out.

Admission:  Even now, sometimes I really don't know what I want; however, not knowing does not give me permission to mistreat my wife.  It is likely she wasn't able to articulate what she wanted, until you were able to reframe the question in order to correctly discern what she really wanted after playing '20 questions'.  It's frustrating; however, not everyone can articulate what they really want.  You showed quite a bit of understanding and empathy in order to do this.

I did decide to take off tomorrow to spend time with my friends.  And I'm taking her to a place we like to go overnight on Saturday.  She's over the moon.  Seems like I played this hand right.

That's really cool.  Borderlines are 'attention' junkies, even if they profess otherwise.  They like attention, enmeshment, being taken care of, excessive validation.  Enjoy your weekend with her.

Take care.

SD