BPD Trait?-Never Can Be Wrong

[Depression = 72% of members]

WOW ! I've been down this road. The tantrums, threatened suicide rantings if she didn't get her own way - my mother was exactly the same - no way she was ever in the wrong. Till the day she died there was no solution !

[thevoice]

WOW ! I've been down this road. The tantrums, threatened suicide rantings if she didn't get her own way - my mother was exactly the same - no way she was ever in the wrong. Till the day she died there was no solution !

[LightBulbIsOn]

I'm relatively sure that a heartfelt "i'm sorry" is not included in the BPD Dictionary.

Just doesnt exists.

[Forging_a_Future]

Anyone and everyone ought to be able to apologize for making a mistake.  It's not admitting bad behavior.  Making a mistake is different than making a bad choice.

My mom turns her bad choices into mistakes like she didn't mean to do something. 

Ditto that! It is such a chore for them to stop themselves because what they're doing might negatively impact someone else. Ugh, its just too much work to load onto someone who already works so hard and no one ever appreciates... .   

Oops. I just went right on into MY mother's next lines after saying she made a mistake.

[Gerda]

The closest thing my mom ever did to apologizing was saying something like "I'm sorry you take offense where none is intended," or "I'm sorry you're so sensitive," or "I was only joking. You just don't understand my sense of humor."

It's the classic non-apology (politicians do this all the time too). It shifts the blame for what they did back on to you. And I used to believe I really was over-sensitive! It was only later when I was around other people who saw how she treated me that I found out that ANY NORMAL PERSON would be offended by the things she says to me.

(She's also decided that my finance has "a very delicate ego" because she's offended him a few times now too. It's funny when she's trying to give me relationship advice, telling me that I have to be very careful because he's so sensitive. As if *I* treat him the same way she does!)

[parent of bpd daughter]

 oops... .

[sandpiper]

Ensis is a master of the patronizing non-apology.

the last argument I had with her before no contact was me finally losing my temper with her about the continued violation of my boundaries. She looked at me snottily and said in holier than thou tones 'I'm sorry you feel that way.'

I was furious, and responded with 'Well I'm sorry you behaved that way but clearly you're not.'

It's good to come here and get all these reminders of what I'm missing - as usual Xmas has prompted me to think 'Are they really that bad?' and 'If I was stronger/had more skills would I cope better with their behaviour?'

I keep having to remind myself that all I got out of my relationships with FOO was fuel for my depression and BS to weigh down my self esteem. Why be around people who 9 times out of 10 will treat you badly, and wait around for the 1 time in 10 when they can treat you like they love you?

[FinalLee]

Oh. My. Goodness. I loove "spoiled brat disorder"! 

No, they don't apologize.  "I'm sorry you're so stupid and mentally deranged to think that I ever did anything wrong or bad to you."

I thought this was a core BPD trait.

[ninjacat]

"I'm sorry you're so stupid and mentally deranged to think that I ever did anything wrong or bad to you."

Ha!    Have you been reading my mother's thoughts lately?

[FinalLee]

"I'm sorry you're so stupid and mentally deranged to think that I ever did anything wrong or bad to you."

Ha!    Have you been reading my mother's thoughts lately?

Absolutely, we FB regularly!   

[BehindTheWall]

My uBPDm is one of the few pwBPD who does apologize.  However, it's only for things she is comfortable with admitting and it's only by her initiative (not because someone else has pointed out that she was wrong).  If I confront her with something she's done wrong, she will deny it outright, claim she was joking, etc.

I agree with the other posters that it's all about protecting the pwBPD's ego.  In my mom's case, she realizes that reasonable people don't claim to be right 100% of the time and apologize for things, so I think she apologizes or accepts responsibility just enough that she can tell herself she's admitted to doing something and is therefore reasonable.  But she's still far from a healthy person's behavior.  "But I was just trying to help!" is sufficient justification in her mind for all kinds of controlling or outrageous behavior.  As long as she meant well, other people's feelings don't matter (this probably falls into the lack of empathy bucket).

[FinalLee]

As long as she meant well, other people's feelings don't matter (this probably falls into the lack of empathy bucket).

In my experience with various different internet discussion groups over the years, this seems to be a common misconception that a lot of people have: "If I had warm fuzzy feelings for you when I told you that you are a fat cow, you're not allowed to be hurt by the remark or upset with me."

Not saying this to in any way disparage your experience but it's a concept that I really, really hate.

[BehindTheWall]

In my experience with various different internet discussion groups over the years, this seems to be a common misconception that a lot of people have: "If I had warm fuzzy feelings for you when I told you that you are a fat cow, you're not allowed to be hurt by the remark or upset with me."

Not saying this to in any way disparage your experience but it's a concept that I really, really hate.

That seems to be a concept that a lot of people have trouble with: that if person A makes remark R to person B, A can mean R in a certain way that A doesn't find offensive, but B can hear or interpret R in a way that is offensive to them.  It doesn't mean that A meant to be offensive and it doesn't mean that B doesn't have the right to feel the way they do.  And R may be understood by most people to be a reasonable remark, or it may be an unreasonable remark; either way, the speaker and the hearer can have two different interpretations.

[bpdlover]

Now we're talking. My Mum is just like that. Not diagnosed with BPD but came from a queen Mother and can never admit any fault and is totally hung up on the way things are communicated. If there is the slightest intensity or perceived intensity, the comment is dismissed and she walks away, above it all. I believe that meeting and talking to my BPD ex triggered feelings from my past and I used them to try and fix Mum or at least make her democratic. My ex's family were just like Mum. I'm actually nothing like them all because I got out (self medicated) of my family early. Actually Mum threw me out when her payments stopped and told me that it would be good for me and I would thank her one day. Also mentioning that I should never have been born. I lived in a shed for six months while I was being abused by a priest who my family said would be a good mentor for a teenage boy who grew up without a Father. So yes, I know why I left a healthy trusting, loving, peaceful relationship with a good woman who has no time for my Mother, a relationship I worked so hard for decades to find, to be with a crazy woman who is always right for eighteen months. Ironic then that my ex BPD who locked me out of her life and my little son's, should file a RO because of largely my tone of voice in an animated discussion about her constant abuse and break ups. She added a few extra tit bits to make sure I was painted totally black. "Mum, I want to be wrong because you are so right, so I can find my true identity in all the mess."

[Gerda]

I just thought of something else. In addition to the non-apology apologies ("I'm sorry that you took offense where none was intended.", this doesn't run BOTH ways.

If I say something to her that offends her when I didn't mean to offend her, she goes off the deep end and if I say I didn't mean offense, that doesn't matter at all to her. There have been times when she'll suddenly start crying, and I was like "Huh? What's wrong?" and she's like "YOU'RE BEING SO MEAN TO ME!" and I really have no idea what she's talking about.

Before I grew up and started understanding how things worked in the "real" world, I just thought I had TERRIBLE social skills. Because not only do I have no sense of humor so I get offended at things my mom says when she "was only joking", but I so easily upset her and don't even realize it.

[Cassy]

My mother used to play this "game" where she'd suddenly, just randomly out of the blue, grab my nose and squeeze it and drag me around. It always left a bruise on my face.

The bruise was my fault, I bruised easily. Then I was made to feel bad for forcing her to stop this fun time together.

She also used to grab my hands and bend my fingers back until I dropped to the floor. One time I was crying it hurt so bad. She was furious I was such a whiny crybaby and "no one can play with you." My fingers are deformed (some quite significantly) from a birth defect. The joints are on angles, so "back" is actually "twisting." That was my MOTHER doing that.

Apologizing never entered her mind.

[mommasa]

My BPDmom punched me in the ear back in May.  This was her latest attempt at an apology:

"I sincerely regret hurting you, in any way. For us to get anywhere

near right again, I need you to understand that never in my wildest

dreams did I ever think I would have slapped you, so demanding I swear

it will never happen again is asking me to tell you what I cannot say,

in honesty. It was never my desire, never contemplated, it was the act

of a desperate woman who had been pressed beyond endurance. To swear I will never break again is asking me to swear that I am no longer

human, no longer have weaknesses. If my baby girl needs to hear sweet

nothings from her mother, than yes, honey, I swear I will never hurt

you again. If my daughter wants an honest relationship with her

mother, you need to understand that I am an injured human, as we all

are, but I am least honest enough to say sometimes I break."

 

Note that the punch has been history-revised to a "slap" and that she is sorry - but she was pushed into it by desperation (so not really her fault!) and she expects me to forgive and forget b/c she is "human" and oh, by the way, she cannot promise she won't "slap" me again.  Finally, she is actually BETTER than everyone else b/c she can at least admit she is human.  WTH - I am human and manage not to punch people.  Quite an apology. 

I felt so sickened reading everyone's responses.  It is truly beyond reproach to be so hurtful to people and then flat out refuse to accept responsibility or apologize.  For some reason, I am feeling very sad for all of us today.   :'(  But also grateful that we have each other to share stories and experiences!

[irishbear99]

If my baby girl needs to hear sweet

nothings from her mother, than yes, honey, I swear I will never hurt

you again. If my daughter wants an honest relationship with her

mother, you need to understand that I am an injured human, as we all

are, but I am least honest enough to say sometimes I break."

Yikes, Mommasa!  I think I    a little there, too!

I suppose the bright side (if you can call it that) is that you now know that your mother does not believe in taking personal responsibility for her actions, does not believe she is capable of or even is required to exercise self-restraint, and has all but said that she WILL punch (yes, punch, not slap) you again if she feels like it.  The "bright" side being that you have all the information needed from her to be able to protect yourself and your precious family.

I'm so sorry.     

[Gerda]

Mommasa, that's awful, but I'm glad that you at least understand how messed up that all is. I went for years actually BELIEVING all this crap! That it was always really MY fault. As I'm sure a lot of others here also did.

Now it's so incredibly obvious how nonsensical this all is. My mom has never punched me like Mommasa's mom has, but I'm sure if she ever did, her reaction would be the same. Something along those same lines as "I regret that YOU drove me to punch you, and I hope it never happens again, but that's not something I can control."   

When my mom was going through her divorce, she did do a lot of horrible things to her husband/ex-husband that she took no responsibility for, that HE DROVE HER to do, and it's all totally HIS fault. "He made me throw this chair down the stairs." "He made me break all these dishes." "He made me rip up his photographs of his dead son."

So now I do know what my mom is capable of, and I'm just lucky I haven't drawn her full wrath in the way her ex husband did... .yet.

And her ex husband was a jerk. My sister and I both think he was a jerk. They got divorced because it turned out he had been cheating on her for years with prostitutes. I think he may have had NPD. But some of the stuff she did to him was still way out of line and made me actually feel a bit sorry for him at times.

[FinalLee]

She said:

If my daughter wants an honest relationship with her

mother, you need to understand that I am an injured human, as we all

are, but I am least honest enough to say sometimes I break."

 

I heard: "I'll punch you again if I feel like it."

[Puttingittogether]

My uBPDm is one of the few pwBPD who does apologize.  However, it's only for things she is comfortable with admitting and it's only by her initiative (not because someone else has pointed out that she was wrong).  If I confront her with something she's done wrong, she will deny it outright, claim she was joking, etc.

I agree with the other posters that it's all about protecting the pwBPD's ego.  In my mom's case, she realizes that reasonable people don't claim to be right 100% of the time and apologize for things, so I think she apologizes or accepts responsibility just enough that she can tell herself she's admitted to doing something and is therefore reasonable.  But she's still far from a healthy person's behavior.  "But I was just trying to help!" is sufficient justification in her mind for all kinds of controlling or outrageous behavior.  As long as she meant well, other people's feelings don't matter (this probably falls into the lack of empathy bucket).

I believe there are variations in evilness.  Some more wicked and closer to Satan than others.  My mother is a great deal like yours.  I believe her to be at his right hand.  Your mother and mine take thought and process things.  They are self-aware.  They are evil.

[bpdlover]

No they are never ever wrong. Mine would have bases covered. She told me she thought that when we got together it was a one night stand. I should have known. Then the texts saying you are the love of my life. Only mistake I made was ensuring it wasn't a one night stand. For loving her, I got abandoned.

[ShadesofGray]

Ugh. The "I was only joking" defense sickens me.   My uBPD/NPDm used to say I was funny looking. When I told her it hurt my feelings, she'd reply "oh you're so sensitive. I was only joking." When she met my future inlaws for the first time at dinner, she actually said to them, "Im surprised she found someone to marry her, she's so funny looking. I'm only joking."

[bpdlover]

They are horrible aren't they. My Mum was really nice to my ex and she couldn't even manage anything to say about her at all. She's just a horrible piece of work and somewhere inside her, despite not knowing the alternative of living healthy, she knows it. I'm free of her and living without being controlled. It's good. I wonder how many hair brain schemes she's running at the moment?

[Forging_a_Future]

My uBPDm is one of the few pwBPD who does apologize.  However, it's only for things she is comfortable with admitting and it's only by her initiative (not because someone else has pointed out that she was wrong).  If I confront her with something she's done wrong, she will deny it outright, claim she was joking, etc.

I agree with the other posters that it's all about protecting the pwBPD's ego.  In my mom's case, she realizes that reasonable people don't claim to be right 100% of the time and apologize for things, so I think she apologizes or accepts responsibility just enough that she can tell herself she's admitted to doing something and is therefore reasonable.  But she's still far from a healthy person's behavior.  "But I was just trying to help!" is sufficient justification in her mind for all kinds of controlling or outrageous behavior.  As long as she meant well, other people's feelings don't matter (this probably falls into the lack of empathy bucket).

YES! Exactly!

The first thing I noticed my mom apologizing for needlessly was flatulance. And she still does that but openly belches the most disgusting noise, I swear it's worse than Shrek. The fart- NO ONE heard it! But she announced it by excusing herself. I noticed this long before I ever noticed that she comes to me to make ridiculous apologies just to annoy me or tell me of some offense that she's commited bc she 'knows that I hate when she does that'. So its like I can sit there with a blank stare hoping she'll go away, but she's going to keep going and going and keep trying to get me to respond so we can engage in her calculated dialogue whence I end up being the bad guy, or continue to stare at her or ignore her until she calls me rude or something and I'm still the bad guy. Mostly its some infraction that I either hadn't noticed or chose not to persue. She just wants attention. And a scapegoat. Anything but responsibility for herself.

[LightBulbIsOn]

"I sincerely regret hurting you, in any way. For us to get anywhere

near right again, I need you to understand that never in my wildest

dreams did I ever think I would have slapped you, so demanding I swear

it will never happen again is asking me to tell you what I cannot say,

in honesty. It was never my desire, never contemplated, it was the act

of a desperate woman who had been pressed beyond endurance. To swear I will never break again is asking me to swear that I am no longer

human, no longer have weaknesses. If my baby girl needs to hear sweet

nothings from her mother, than yes, honey, I swear I will never hurt

you again. If my daughter wants an honest relationship with her

mother, you need to understand that I am an injured human, as we all

are, but I am least honest enough to say sometimes I break."

Mommasa... .

I think this is about the most sickening and infurating thing I have ever read here.  It brought tears to my eyes to think that this person is someones mother.  

(sigh)... .I'm just so sorry    

[ShadesofGray]

quote Forging_a_Future

The first thing I noticed my mom apologizing for needlessly was flatulance. And she still does that but openly belches the most disgusting noise, I swear it's worse than Shrek. The fart- NO ONE heard it! But she announced it by excusing herself. I noticed this long before I ever noticed that she comes to me to make ridiculous apologies just to annoy me or tell me of some offense that she's commited bc she 'knows that I hate when she does that'. So its like I can sit there with a blank stare hoping she'll go away, but she's going to keep going and going and keep trying to get me to respond so we can engage in her calculated dialogue whence I end up being the bad guy, or continue to stare at her or ignore her until she calls me rude or something and I'm still the bad guy. Mostly its some infraction that I either hadn't noticed or chose not to persue. She just wants attention. And a scapegoat. Anything but responsibility for herself.

OMG. This is triggering memories and is freaking me out. I've never ever talked about my mother's disgusting flatulence (or burping) before. I have no words to describe it. It was always in front of me and it was always just the most vial, grossest thing. She knew I hated it. When I would say, "MOM!" (as in, "Mom, that's so gross!" she would turn waif with puppy eyes and say "I'm sorry."

All I could think of was that I must make her anxious or something, that she cannot control her flatulence in front of me. She would do this disgusting thing of moving her butt cheek while sitting, to fart. She'd fart a lot when we were shopping together (high tense times). These farts weren't just slips or whatever. They were extremely noisy. My dad didn't fart like this so I knew it wasn't normal. OMG I'm just shocked right now because I had blocked all this disgusting stuff out.

She also sometimes used to stuff her face with whatever food, like crackers or cookies or something else crunchy, standing there right in front of me while violating my personal space. It's hard to explain but it was really yucky because of the smell. It was like I was right there with her, in her mouth.

Again I think she was just super anxious around me for some crazy reason, (oh wait, right, she's BPD/NPD... .) because I can't imagine she did these kinds of things around friends or coworkers? Why only around me?  

Why didn't she have the common decency to excuse herself? Why did she have to fart like that right in front of me; right next to me? Why couldn't she hold it in? Did she do this on purpose?

[alkaline]

Mommasa, wow.  That letter was horrible!      I heard the same thing as FinalLee.  Gee, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to be near her 

My mother is also over the top with farting and burping.  She burps louder than a drunk frat guy.  It is so exaggerated and sounds like she is going to vomit.  It really made my skin crawl.

She just let's farts fly and at really inappropriate times.  Like right when she met my DH.  Blew a big fart.  I know she can control it because she does when she wants to.  I think she does it to make select people uncomfortable.

[Gerda]

LOL, about the farting... .My mom doesn't do that, but what she DOES do is tell me TMI about her bodily functions. I really DON'T need to hear about how constipated she is, or that she needs to excuse herself to take a GREAT BIG POOP (just saying you need to use the restroom is fine!).

Though I always thought that was because of her lack of boundaries. Same thing like how she uses the toilet with the door open, and walks around the house naked.

When I do mention something about how I don't want to hear about her bowel movements, she reacts by either acting like I'm way too uptight, or she acts like I don't love her enough, because if I did, I would be interested in knowing about those sorts of things. After all, she changed my diapers!

Shucks, I also am reminded of how when I was visiting her last month, she was sitting there in the living room and asked me if I'm growing a beard yet, and said it was when she was about my age that she first started growing chin hairs that she needs to pluck out. (And she said this while she's pulling at some of her own.) I just left the room because I really didn't want to get into a conversation about chin hair plucking. At least she's gone through menopause now so I don't have to hear about her periods.

I think it's actually made me MORE uptight about these sorts of things than I would have been otherwise. I do think people can be TOO ashamed about their bodies, but I think she goes just way too far the other way sharing all this information that we really don't need to know.

[ShadesofGray]

my heart aches every time I read your posts.   

Did anyone ever call child services for you? Did any teachers or neighbors ever suspect child abuse? 

My uBPD/NPDm never broke any of my bones per say, although she was physically abusive (slapping, hitting, hair pulling, grabbing, cornering, yelling in my face so loudly my ears would ring, etc.)

However, I am reminded of something that happened. I was prone to injury as a little kid, and broke a handful of bones. There was one time in the hospital, that they forced my mother to leave the room. I could see her face go white and she was absolutely freaked out. No niceness or aggressive meanness worked to convince them to let her stay.

I remember a really nice lady asking me a lot of questions about how I hurt myself. I remember being very quiet, because I was scared to answer her without my mother being there, even though the fall was actually not my mother's fault. Of course I figured out later on that they were trying to surmise if I had been abused. That, unfortunately, was the closest I ever came to someone doing something.

Other times, I'd just stare shly and quietly at a neighbor, just praying that they would call child services on my mother. It never happened. Not even with living next door to a retired police officer (My mother kissed his ass but I'm sure he realized something wasn't right. I know he heard her rages... .she didn't always remember to shut the windows so "THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD WON'T HEAR ME SCREAMING AT YOU AND THINK I'M A BAD MOTHER!:).   

[bpdlover]

it breaks my heart to hear also because it's so unjust. I too know a sociopath who emotionally wounds, my ex. Mum is more neurotic. If my ex hurts my child, I hope those around her won't be so beaten down by her manipulation and shaming that they can't stand up and do the right thing.