Figuring out what I've learned

[Depression = 72% of members]

My guard is down a bit so I'm writing this post to keep a dialog open about whether I am about to learn another lesson or if I've actually got a grip on good boundaries with my BPD stepdaughter (25).

Feel free to join me as I either celebrate or kick myself. This whole thing is going down in 5 months so I'll be using this thread to keep on eye on me 

This first post is back story. If you know it already, skip to the second post which is what I'm keeping an eye on.

Back story: I have a BPD brother, BPD waif grandmother (deceased), and a dad with narcissist traits (golden child). My mother is an adult child, something a therapist told her after a handful of family therapy about 30 years ago. I went on to marry then divorce n/BPDx 12 years ago and got a lot of therapy to help change my family script.

BPD family has been a huge part of that journey.

Then, I married H, a lovely man I absolutely love and adore (who seems to have parents with PD traits if not full-blown), who had been married to a BPDx wife.

H and I are both recovering codependents  We are in a great place and have both implemented a lot of boundaries. If I'm being honest, I am nailing the boundaries a bit better than him. I've had way more therapy.

H has three adult kids, including SD25 who has all the signs of quiet BPD. Finding out that she was BPD when she lived with us on and off nearly broke me and without therapy, would've ruined my marriage to H. What I didn't learn during my divorce from n/BPDx, I was pretty much forced to learn with SD25.

I often tell people SD25 represents my best work. I have never worked so hard on skills to neutralize a difficult relationship as I have with her. Nor have I ever met anyone so covertly aggressive.

[livednlearned]

My guard is down a bit so I'm writing this post to keep a dialog open about whether I am about to learn another lesson or if I've actually got a grip on good boundaries with my BPD stepdaughter (25).

Feel free to join me as I either celebrate or kick myself. This whole thing is going down in 5 months so I'll be using this thread to keep on eye on me 

This first post is back story. If you know it already, skip to the second post which is what I'm keeping an eye on.

Back story: I have a BPD brother, BPD waif grandmother (deceased), and a dad with narcissist traits (golden child). My mother is an adult child, something a therapist told her after a handful of family therapy about 30 years ago. I went on to marry then divorce n/BPDx 12 years ago and got a lot of therapy to help change my family script.

BPD family has been a huge part of that journey.

Then, I married H, a lovely man I absolutely love and adore (who seems to have parents with PD traits if not full-blown), who had been married to a BPDx wife.

H and I are both recovering codependents  We are in a great place and have both implemented a lot of boundaries. If I'm being honest, I am nailing the boundaries a bit better than him. I've had way more therapy.

H has three adult kids, including SD25 who has all the signs of quiet BPD. Finding out that she was BPD when she lived with us on and off nearly broke me and without therapy, would've ruined my marriage to H. What I didn't learn during my divorce from n/BPDx, I was pretty much forced to learn with SD25.

I often tell people SD25 represents my best work. I have never worked so hard on skills to neutralize a difficult relationship as I have with her. Nor have I ever met anyone so covertly aggressive.

[Notwendy]

I will chime in after you post the second one.

As someone who has also done a lot of work on co-dependency- the term "progress, not perfection" comes to mind. As much as I have gained skills, sometimes, BPD mom's manipulations can still go over them. I think we need to not be too hard on ourselves.

Some of BPD mom's behaviors are overt, but many of them are covert. She carefully sets the stage, aligns her people, designs the story. She doesn't reveal what she wants to me- keeping me in the dark is one of her ways of getting what she wants. I don't ever know fully what she's up to.

I don't think like that, and probably neither do you. I think everyone has a public persona to some extent. I am not as casual with people at work, but still, much of what other people see is consistent. I don't really think about how to set the stage, present a certain persona. I am just me. My mother on the other hand chooses her persona- chooses what someone else sees and so remains in control.

So do the best you can, but if it isn't perfect- it's still good!

[livednlearned]

Now and next:

H and I moved 3000 miles away two years ago. In September, we'll be flying back to our last town for a wedding and to see friends. I'm excited!

All three of H's adult kids live about 3 hours away from the town where we'll be staying for 10 days. H wanted to rent a house and have all of us stay in the house together for the long weekend.

Original me: do whatever to keep everyone happy. Put myself last.
Healing me: don't do anything I don't want to do. Be rigid, don't bend, feel guilty.
More recent me: use skills wisely. Be reasonable, flexible and use my ninja boundary skills.

I cycle through all three versions in different relationship scenarios to some degree or another but for the most part I am nailing it with the recent me   Mostly what happens is I get sucked into a whirlpool but I am able to get out pretty quick. I don't necessarily avoid the whirlpools as well as I' like, but seem to be pretty good at using skills to get to safety without a ton of damage.

I don't know if that's as good as it will get? I'd like to avoid the whirlpools altogether but they seem to show up in so many different guises.

All this is to say that when H suggested we get a house for all five of us, I immediately went into a defensive crouch and strategized.

I do all the travel arrangements. I could avoid the long weekend and shift our stay so that the wedding goes first then we stay for a week. That would mean less SD25 but also less time with my friend getting married in the week before her wedding.

At this point, I am going between healing me and new me in this inner dialog.

Healing me: hell no to staying in the same place with SD25.
New me: maybe I can contain the exposure to SD25.

Healing me: get multiple hotel rooms. It's expensive and worth it.
New me: maybe I have good enough verbal boundaries and can cohabitate with SD25 briefly.

Healing me: H can drive up and visit SD25 and S22 and I'll stay in town.
New me: let H know I will spend some time together with SD25 and have others plans too.

I ended up going with new me thinking. Wish me luck.

We rented a home with 3 bedrooms and a couch for S22 (if he comes, which is a question mark). We arrive Friday, S25 drives down and will arrive early afternoon Sat. That works out to two dinners, two nights, two breakfasts and lunches, and only one full day.

H talks about the things we'll do together and I am eliminating some of those in my head, waiting until we are closer to have plans that break up too much time with SD25.

The kicker is this. The house is two doors down from where I used to live. The same house where I lived with n/BPDx. The same house I fled 12 years ago. The same house I thought n/BPDx was going to kill himself and S20 (then 10) after n/BPDx experienced some kind of psychotic episode that eventually led to me getting full custody.

Either I am a new person and have the self-care skills and healed scars to put myself into this situation or I am one dumb lady.

This is where I'm going to write out my thoughts as I navigate this. I know I'll survive SD25, it's more about what I'm doing to thread the needle when it comes to conflict (either with H, with SD25, or just in a general sense as I think about social niceties and whether I can or should or have to do something.

Lately, I notice how much I carry in my body when stressful family things are going down, usually with me not using my skills to practice self-care and in general trying to ignore dysfunction because it's easier.

If I get a back spasm from this, then these choices really do affect my health in undeniable ways.

[livednlearned]

As much as I have gained skills, sometimes, BPD mom's manipulations can still go over them. I think we need to not be too hard on ourselves.

Same with SD25. I am half the problem if I'm being honest, in terms of letting guilt drive me.

I can assert boundaries, and I still feel guilt which I override in the more important actions but then let get the better of me in language.

For example, I'll have a physical boundary with SD25 but then we're in the same room later and I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

Then I kick myself because the gesture came from a transactional place and wasn't genuine.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Same with SD25. I am half the problem if I'm being honest, in terms of letting guilt drive me.

I can assert boundaries, and I still feel guilt which I override in the more important actions but then let get the better of me in language.

For example, I'll have a physical boundary with SD25 but then we're in the same room later and I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

Then I kick myself because the gesture came from a transactional place and wasn't genuine.

Wanting to make your husband happy sounds genuine to me.

I smiled, reading your post, not because what you wrote is funny, but I love your sense of humor.

I also have back spasms, and had one just prior to going back to live with me uBPDm for a month... (That was dumb). I thought she had changed, I thought I had changed, I thought we could have a normal relationship and I needed help with my children, time to work on my thesis, to be in this specific area to look for a house because we were moving. Boy, was I wrong ..

But ! If it is any consolation : I was able to hold it together for about two weeks before reverting back to the terrorized 8 years old rocking herself in a foetal position in the corner of a room. So I think you can make it for one week... Albeit, being closed to your old house might be a bit triggering...

We will all be here to support you through this! As long as the board stays up...

[Turkish]

Staying near the house you survived, ugh. That's a whole level of stress I would imagine even if it's been years.

For example, I'll have a physical boundary with SD25 but then we're in the same room later and I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

This is interesting. It seems like covert/internal/auto-triangulation? Though avoiding possible conflict based upon past experiences, you are wise enough to see it as:

Then I kick myself because the gesture came from a transactional place and wasn't genuine.

Because you don't like her due to her being a source of pain? What transaction isn't transactional?

It's not the same, but I'm reminded of my old boss at the Cafe where I worked as a teenager. It was rare we'd get prickly customers, but she'd be nice as pie, like, "the meals are on us, thank you!" She told me being nice confused and disarmed them. Ninja skills. At the least, it got rid of them. Yet you can't get rid of her.

I'm reminded of the Bible verse, Romans 12:20:

"...“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

Not to say that she's your enemy, but certainly adversarial. Maybe it's not as workable with a pwBPD traits.

[GaGrl]

I am embarking on a road trip on Wednesday to visit my husband's two oldest children. I love them, and they both are damaged from his marriage to The Dark Princess (uBPD/NPD exwife). We do our best. It's not comfy.

[Notwendy]

I offer to do something nice without her even asking, simply because I feel guilty, knowing it will make H happy.

I catch myself doing things like this.

A couple of thoughts:

One issue is that - this is your H's child, and he still has a bond with her, so if he wants to stay in a house together, it's hard for you to step in on this. If you did, he'd be in the position to choose between you- and also this becomes triangle dynamics.

It looks as if your H is going to be more susceptible to her manipulations. She's his daughter. The dynamics between them are long standing. I think all families have their own quirky dynamics- some more than others. The dynamics in my H's family are less obvious or difficult than mine, but I could see him get "drawn into" his role when we visited, and he wasn't even aware of it as it felt normal to him. He can also see how I respond when I am around my BPD mother. So again- progress, not perfection if you see your H less able to resist the dynamics with his D.

When it is a short visit, my default is to appeasement. I don't think defaulting to "co-dependent" is a good idea in the long run, but I think of the time span and also the alternative. For only two days, I'd rather not have to be dealing with rages or other conflict. Now for large boundaries, I do hold them, but when I do visit BPD mom, I try to avoid conflict as it's a short time.

One thing I did learn in work on co-dependency was owning my choices. If I choose to appease, that's different from feeling "she made me do it". Albeit- the choices may not be easy ones, and defaulting to appeasement feels like being co-dependent, but the time span is the difference for me. Appeasement is not the best choice if two people are living together but for a short visit, it might be.

Do not rescue your H. This is his daughter. Don't step in to be nice and appease her to keep the peace. You know that natural consequences are a good reminder here. Let him experience this relationship as it is and let him deal with it. If it goes well, then good. If not, then he may rethink the idea of everyone staying together if the occasion comes up. After the visit, your H might be feeling emotionally worn out but if so, don't rescue him- let him be with that.

Self care comes to mind here. You all don't have to be together all the time. Let your H have some one on one time with his kids. He can take his D out to dinner, just the two of them. If you have some old friends- consider a "girls night out with them". Spend sometime with just yourself- go for a walk, get your nails done. Schedule some short breaks for just yourself.

Don't try to compete with her. She's going to act like Daddy's little girl and he's got a soft spot for that. With her having BPD- the act will probably be irritating to you. Likely he may be defaulting to appeasement as well, just to avoid issues for a couple of days. As long as she doesn't talk him into giving over your savings or something that could be hurtful to the two of you, try not to let this bother you. Emotionally she may still want a lot of attention.

Self care when you get home after the visit too- be good to yourself.

[livednlearned]

Wanting to make your husband happy sounds genuine to me.

I wish? I do love when he's happy. We have some history here with SD25 and the whole happy/not happy thing.

I also have back spasms, and had one just prior to going back to live with me uBPDm for a month...

Do you believe it's connected? For me, I do. Not sure my family is the source but they are certainly the lit match. I saw my uBPD brother after 10 years of disengagement, walked down a flight of stairs and it was like a guitar string snapped in my back.

I was able to hold it together for about two weeks

That's a long time, amen friend.

SD25 flew out for a week last summer and had to stay in a hotel. I find minutes with her to be tough, but even without a PD she's difficult.

Two weeks would be an eternity at this point. And I think I might be out of practice, so there would be a lot of catch-up trying to get my feed under me.

[livednlearned]

Staying near the house you survived, ugh. That's a whole level of stress I would imagine even if it's been years.

Yet I feel nothing ... I guess it could be different when we get there? I really don't know. I'm the one who booked it so that's my first mistake. I'll have no one to blame if it goes badly except me and myself 

It seems like covert/internal/auto-triangulation?

Ooo. Yes, internal auto-triangulation. I was hoping for authenticity but I seem to not be at that zen level just yet.

Because you don't like her due to her being a source of pain? What transaction isn't transactional?

I don't like how I give away the farm after having good boundaries. I read a quote about how you tell a lot about someone by how they treat people they don't like. Written better, but that's the gist.

Coming from dysfunction, and healing from it, why would I err on the side of making SD25 comfortable only because I did something as reasonable as set a boundary? Why is it hard to be authentic AND have boundaries?

I'm reminded of the Bible verse, Romans 12:20:

"...“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

I love this.  

Not to say that she's your enemy, but certainly adversarial. Maybe it's not as workable with a pwBPD traits.

It seems to work when I have ways to let off some of the pressure that builds, and some of those exits will be closed to me.

[livednlearned]

One issue is that - this is your H's child, and he still has a bond with her, so if he wants to stay in a house together, it's hard for you to step in on this. If you did, he'd be in the position to choose between you- and also this becomes triangle dynamics.

We must be sharing the same pair of shoes. This is exactly it.

I set a boundary, she runs to H. He comes to me. It's much better than that now but the fury I feel when something slips through and plays out is just, wow.

It looks as if your H is going to be more susceptible to her manipulations.

Yes, and that's ok. We have worked hard on this. I have boundaries with him so I can have boundaries with her and he understands. Insisting that we all stay together is a bit of a step back in terms of where we got to after years of trying to find a balance. I think it's because she's saying, "LnL doesn't like me," and he knows it's about boundaries but wants to demonstrate a counter argument. 

When it is a short visit, my default is to appeasement. I don't think defaulting to "co-dependent" is a good idea in the long run, but I think of the time span and also the alternative.

That's a good way to think of it. Thanks for that insight. Deep down I want to be the difficult one for a change.

Do not rescue your H. This is his daughter. Don't step in to be nice and appease her to keep the peace. You know that natural consequences are a good reminder here. Let him experience this relationship as it is and let him deal with it.

I had this mostly down to a science but having moved so far away, I am rusty.

It's a good reminder about letting there be natural consequences.

I am terrific at putting people at ease and the other step kids like when I'm there. It creates jealousy for SD25 but the overall dynamic kind of sweeps the jealousy to the side.

You all don't have to be together all the time.

I could use some rock solid examples here. We will have one rental car, then SD25's car. Maybe SD28's.

H will often insist on having me go with him and SD25 because it's socially easier for him.

[Notwendy]

I want to be the difficult one for a change.

Me too! I have wondered what it must be like to be that way, but really, I couldn't do it- I couldn't treat someone else that way. I know from working on co-dependency that my tendency is to lean too far to the other direction- too accommodating, but the goal is to the middle. Still, I do wonder sometimes what it might be like to actually be the difficult one.

H will often insist on having me go with him and SD25 because it's socially easier for him.

This- this right here- shows the issue. This is the triangle. H knows his D is difficult and brings you into the triangle to make it easier for him. You endure the situation and then feel resentful.

I think this is the boundary to work on. It's his D, it's his decision to have this arrangement. Yes, you are one family and you will be pleasant to everyone, but it isn't your job to make things easier between them. IMHO- establishing the boundaries with him are the issue to work on and you can do this before the trip. This doesn't mean you don't do things together, or be supportive- this insisting you come along when you don't want to - that's the line between being supportive and taking care of his relationship with her for him.

I don't know what the itinerary is for the weekend- but one thing to do is schedule something for yourself and reserve the car. SD has a car and so she and your H can have that while you take the rental. Think of something you need to do ( even if it's sit in a coffee place by yourself for a bit). Do you need to shop for something? See an old friend? Visit a relative? Or not even something big- just say " I need to have the car from X time to X time" and sit in the car with a coffee.

When I visit BPD mother, this is not hard to arrange as I go out to get groceries and run other errands and I can have this time alone.  If I visit with my H, our families live close to each other and there was always some friction over how much time we spend with each of them, with him preferring his family. His role is golden child, "hero" and it's irritating to see him drawn into rescuing them. He also preferred to have me along, but I also felt obligated to see my family.

As much as my mother is difficult, I also didn't like the imbalance of preference. It was my H who had this idea that we had to stick together but eventually I would take the car and visit mine on my own while he stayed with his family. We each spent some time with family as a couple, but also not as a couple and during these times, I did spend some time by myself in a coffee shop. Yes, my H got irritated with this arrangement at first, but then adjusted.

This is subtle livedandlearned. It is possible to still be pleasant and do nice things for people but also easy to cross the line to over functioning. Your H may not even be aware of why he wants you there- but the key is- over functioning on your part helps him stay the "good guy" in this too.

So, I think setting an itinerary with your H, where you have the car for a scheduled time may be something you can do. What you do and where you go during that time is anything you want. You don't have to justify it.

[Notwendy]

I also don't stay with my BPD mother, and recently have coordinated visits with a sibling. Being alone with her is more of a potential for drama. The times I have been on my own, I have the car, I can "run an errand" if I need to.

I tend to over function with my H's family. He doesn't have a parent with BPD. His mother is towards the co-dependent side. I feel uncomfortable seeing her do everything and step in to help. H is the golden child, but also the hero- and so gets drawn into doing things- I think that my helping plays into that. When I visit my BPD mother, she expects me to do things for her but when H and I visited our own families, we each delt with our own dynamics.

What got interesting is that, once I started to visit my parents on my own, H spent more time with his family than with mine, and also I did too. Eventually we both have done more visiting our families on our own than together. While this trip is the two of you, it's also OK to not always do this together. Your H can visit on his own. He might not prefer it, but again, it's his daughter- and their relationship.

[pursuingJoy]

I've missed hearing from you lnl. 

BPD MIL also said, "pj just doesn't like me." My husband, hurt, reported this to me. He was hurt, because he believed it. The best thing I ever did was make some safe concessions and show kindness. Sure enough, H was witness to her snark and snide comments. He saw my kindness in the face of her rudeness and couldn't blame me anymore. Since the last time, I haven't been asked to see her. That was a happy outcome I didn't expect, because I'd done it for me, to test my growth. I'm not a hateful or cruel person. I am mature and compassionate and boundaries are a reflection of those qualities. I think you're doing this as much for you as you are for your H.

So I say bravo for taking this chance and trusting your New Me. You made a brave, wise and reasonable choice. Heap those burning coals. Of course you know we're here for you no matter what happens.

I suspect you'll be ok when you see the house you lived in. Memories, for sure, but I think it's just as likely that you'll be struck by your growth and strength more than anything.

[kells76]

I want to be the difficult one for a change... H will often insist on having me go with him and SD25 because it's socially easier for him.

The same tension in those two lines that stood out to Notwendy stood out to me, too.

You have an opportunity to allow yourself the experience of "being difficult" by stating "I'll be using the rental car on Tuesday around 2pm, see you guys when I get back", and seeing what you think about how that goes for you.

I also wonder if it's less "being difficult" and more "being the one who is allowed to have wants in public"?

really good to hear from you.

[livednlearned]

This is the triangle. H knows his D is difficult and brings you into the triangle to make it easier for him. You endure the situation and then feel resentful.

@notwendy, yes. There is also a secondary dynamic, which is to appease the narrative that "LnL doesn't like me." These two things go together. I guess the compromise I'm being asked to participate in is that this is a short visit, relatively speaking, so it makes me want to get very clear in my own mind how I want this visit to feel. I'm trying to figure out what is being authentic, and what is being reasonable. For me, being authentic = being difficult. I'm working on that, the feeling side. Because on the behavior/actions side I'm always courteous, polite, kind. Inside, 5 min feels like a lot with SD25. I am climbing out of my skin regardless of whether something is going down with her. It does make me feel rigid (like thinking so tactically about our how we interact) but maybe that's a feature in our relationship I have to accept.  

All of us (all kids plus me + H) saw each other last Oct at brother-in-laws for a birthday party and SD25 was at every mini-gathering during our 4 day visit. No matter who we were getting together with, SD25 was there -- invited by H. SD25 was like velcro at these gatherings. Sitting next to me in restaurants, seeking me out at parties, sticking near me on walks, etc. So H is having a great time and I am being monopolized by SD25.

If it's me, H, and S25 it's the opposite. She is velco on H, a different dynamic I find hard to tolerate because there is a silent treatment vibe (toward me) and a slightly icky inappropriate dynamic from SD25 toward H that is better than it used to be but still in the ballpark of weird.

@pj nice to see you too!

I have said to H "we don't have to all like each other, we just have to make it work," and he seems to acknowledge there is nothing to really fight here. However, it feels like "I" am the "we" that is making this work  

I'm so courteous to SD25. Friends I confide in say I am courteous to a fault with SD25.

The part I struggle with is self-care in these social moments that feel exploited by SD25. Right now, when I validate her, it is always with the goal of putting things back on her. If she tells me about how she's doing this or that, I will say, "You seem very proud of that, you look happy." Rather than, "Wow, great." Maybe it seems like a nuance but for some reason, it's important to the long-term dynamic we have. If I validate too much, an inch becomes a mile. I feel like I'm being used and dragged into a one-down position. It feels like: "You provide supply, we're in a social situation with few emergency exits. You're weak here."

There is zero question in my mind that all interactions with SD25 are a game. I am doing what I can with language to minimize whether or how much I play. Work in progress.

@kells76 I did myself a favor and reached out to a friend -- we used to have these relaxing 3 hour coffee/walks on Sundays and even though the visit is 5 months away, we put something on the calendar   And to be fair to H, he is super agreeable and understands (under the guise of me seeing friends, not me checking myself out of S25 interactions. I am more concerned he will feel the need to go for a jog and I will be in the house with SD25 alone. I won't be surprised if SD28 chooses to stay with friends -- she has done a lot of work on boundaries and she is probably the most assertive with SD25 of all of us. And it's a toss up if S22 will come down.

I can always say, "I'm going to take a nap" but I want to be able to be authentic and not make excuses to hide what I want and need because that's how I become a doormat. Maybe the compromise, if H leaves me with SD25, is to say, "I'm taking a time out to be in my room, see you tonight for dinner." I really have to think of this stuff in advance  

I'm back in touch with family and I really see how easy it is for me to take things in the chin because I'm the "reasonable, nice, police, courteous, gracious, tolerant" LnL.

I also wonder if it's less "being difficult" and more "being the one who is allowed to have wants in public"?

Yes. I feel that being gracious is perceived as a weakness between me and SD25 and can be exploited by H unless I am proactive.

It's why I have to think so hard in advance like this -- I don't want to feel like a doormat, much less be one. Even if doormatting incidents appear small, they are important to me. I'm trying to relearn a whole new way of being and all of these interactions, when successful, give me hope that I actually learned -- even internalized -- something.

[Notwendy]

I just realized how differently we interpreted "being difficult". I was thinking about that meaning raging and causing a scene! I think what you meant was to not be the one who accommodates everyone else. It's a work in progress but I do need to work on being more assertive and less accommodating.

I also wonder what it must be like to be the one who rages and acts out while everyone else does their bidding. I can't imagine being like that, yet, it's what my mother does and still, my father just complied. So yes, I do wonder, but I know I couldn't do that.

But asserting yourself- yes! We don't have to be doormats. I think taking breaks if you need them is being authentic. You don't need to say you are taking a nap. Just say you are tired and want to go to your room to lie down. "Tired" can mean "tired of the drama" - they don't need to know that, and truthfully, being with your SD 25 is emotionally draining. So go lie down, read something, make some tea, watch a video. 

[livednlearned]

I just realized how differently we interpreted "being difficult". I was thinking about that meaning raging and causing a scene!

 

Being difficult for me would be, "You stay in a house together and I'll stay in a hotel. I need my space."

It might also be, "I'll stay in the house together. Let's agree that you won't create a situation where I'm alone with SD25."

SD25 presents as a waif so there is no outward raging or anything to easily point at and say, Hell no and have it seem reasonable. H has said he knows that SD25 is "difficult," which minimizes SD25 stuff and makes it seem like avoiding her or resisting being alone is somehow disproportionate.

H is going through some "difficulties" with SD25 right now.

One of the natural consequences of me saying pretty much nothing when he talks about her is that he expresses more freely how he feels about her.

However, this tends to happen when she is being extreme and right now she is being extreme.

Once she winds him up and gets whatever need met, a period of calm follows and H is lulled into thinking she is improving. So it's hard to know in September if we will be in a period of "SD25 is difficult" or "SD25 is doing well." Difficult or not difficult is day to day.

But asserting yourself- yes! We don't have to be doormats.

In the example of SD25 velcro at parties or gatherings, I cannot think of a reasonable way to be assertive in those scenarios.  

[Turkish]

All of us (all kids plus me + H) saw each other last Oct at brother-in-laws for a birthday party and SD25 was at every mini-gathering during our 4 day visit. No matter who we were getting together with, SD25 was there -- invited by H. SD25 was like velcro at these gatherings. Sitting next to me in restaurants, seeking me out at parties, sticking near me on walks, etc. So H is having a great time and I am being monopolized by SD25.

This sounds like she's trying to deal with social anxiety.

[Notwendy]

This reminds me of the thread "what terms are used to minimize BPD behaviors". "being difficult". Also, "mother's in a bad mood"- for raging.

Yet, if we considered our own needs, that was exaggerated.  If I asked for something, I was described as "selfish" by BPD mother.

It's understandable that we feel asserting our own needs is "being difficult". There's the fear of rocking the boat. But it may only be self care to not go along with what someone else wants.

It sounds like staying with SD 25 is just a miserable situation. I don't stay with my BPD mother for similar reasons. I need to have space away from her so I can feel at peace.

This is supposed to be a good time for you - seeing old friends. As much as you wish to be kind to your H, this may be "doing too much" on your part to the point where you feel resentful and emotionally drained.

Your H may also be playing out his own wishes of happy family.

How far along are you with the plans. Did you reserve the house? Is SD expecting to stay with you?

I think your H is going to balk at the idea of you staying in a hotel while they stay in the house, because it doesn't fit the "happy family" picture and may insult SD25 playing into "you don't like her"

I don't know where she is financially, but 25 is still pretty young and travel/hotel can be an expense at that age. Maybe your H wants to pay for her housing- and it's not unusual for parents to do that when travelling with young adults.

So maybe the house is not a good idea. What if you all stay in a hotel and she has her own room, and you and H cover the cost of her hotel room? Can you cancel the reservation on the house this far out?

I think explaining to your H that you think this is going to be a miserable set up for you and considering alternatives for housing might be a way to go here.

[pursuingJoy]

SD25 presents as a waif so there is no outward raging or anything to easily point at and say, Hell no and have it seem reasonable. H has said he knows that SD25 is "difficult," which minimizes SD25 stuff and makes it seem like avoiding her or resisting being alone is somehow disproportionate.

I can SO relate to all of this and what you described about thinking ahead and being a constant source of supply.

It just occurred to me that I noticed a change in this dynamic after I refused to host MIL overnight. I offered day visits which were refused with disgust and horror. "Who doesn't let their mom stay overnight?" They asked repeatedly, I was called selfish, but I held firm. I now seem painted black to MIL which brings some relief, surprisingly. I'm not expected to host, make her feel good about herself, receive her Velcro-ness, be her therapist, fixer, caretaker or guardian. I do worry that H lives with buried resentment but to be honest, that's his burden to carry, not mine.

For me, my desire to be gracious, seek peace and balance has sometimes served to protect me from facing my fears and prolong the inevitable.

What's the bravest choice for you in all of this?

[livednlearned]

This sounds like she's trying to deal with social anxiety.

It feels different. While she is not a rock star in social situations, she sees these in-laws once or twice a month. My SIL is very maternal, nurturing.

My BPD-radar suggests that SD25 does not want me building relationships with family members that she sees as hers. Meanwhile, she is baffled by my compassion + boundaries and is trying to ingratiate. Also, I find it hard to be rude so I don't tend to walk away, which I'm working on. There is a sense of glee for SD25 in these interactions.

[livednlearned]

I think explaining to your H that you think this is going to be a miserable set up for you and considering alternatives for housing might be a way to go here.

Unfortunately, I don't feel I have the backbone for that.

We are due for a moment of truth. It's been a while (over 2 years). SD25 was here last summer and in terms of managing SD25, the visit went well. I attribute it to SD25 staying in a hotel and me having work plus my own car plus lots of exit hatches. And my verbal boundaries (validating questions only).

H attributed it to SD25 maturing and being away from usual stressors but I think she was neutralized by me -- I'm the one who insisted she stay in a hotel, which was sensible because we do not currently have a guest room and I refuse (based on past experiences) to share a bathroom with SD25.

[livednlearned]

What's the bravest choice for you in all of this?

What a great question.

It's hard to think about being brave without instantly rationalizing my choices along the lines of peace-maker, appeaser, fixer.

I have to think about this...

[Riv3rW0lf]

Do you believe it's connected? For me, I do. Not sure my family is the source but they are certainly the lit match. I saw my uBPD brother after 10 years of disengagement, walked down a flight of stairs and it was like a guitar string snapped in my back.

Yes I do. I also have vertigo issues and migraines, which I all believe are stress related from having been hyper alert all my life. I also tend to push my body too far to reach for perfection before I am ready... I'd push too much at the gym, or bend too low at yoga, twist too far. I just don't feel it and then I hurt myself. My T thinks I am hard on my body to unconsciously continue the abuse my mom put me trough. And in a sense he is right... I am learning to stay within myself now, and love my body, listen to its needs instead of telling it what it needs. Its a process but I am getting better at it.

Ive been giving some thoughts to your post and since she is your stepdaughter and not your daughter, and because she is 25, I don't believe it crucial that she thinks you love her. It makes for poor family diners if she knows you don't, but it seems that's what you are getting anyway, so ... I'd just stay low and do my own things on my own time, let your husband deal with his own daughter. Truly, it isn't your problem and I don't see why you should stand between them to keep the peace.

You don't owe them to fix their family issues... And your husband should understand that, truly, she is not your problem and you shouldn't have to bend everytime she steps in, borderline or not. You married him, not her. And she is 25, not 15. 

[Notwendy]

Family dynamics can be sticky and actually form a part of who we are attracted to and who attracts us.

Having co-dependent tendencies, I do understand the pull to keep the peace.  I often give in when there is conflict as well. Sometimes I am not even fully aware of myself doing it- it is so habitual.

In my family, many of the dynamics are overt. If BPD mother has conflict- well we all know it by her rages and behaviors. Not that she doesn't also have her less obvious behaviors, but we knew what the rules were with her.

H's family dynamics are covert. Admittedly, his family dynamics are far less dysfunctional than in mine, but some are there. ( probably in all families to some extent). There are covert rules and everyone knows them, but as an outsider, I didn't.

I recall pushing to stay in a hotel as our family grew. There just wasn't enough space in his parents' home. But my H was concerned we'd "insult them" if we did that. Yet, when we did stay in a hotel- they didn't seem to mind. Maybe they preferred that, or they were insulted, but I have no way of knowing because nobody would say what they were thinking.

What I am saying is - even if your H's family of origin wasn't overtly dysfunctional, there may have been some unspoken rules. Like "we must always stay in a place together" that may not be the best option but he may be afraid to suggest otherwise to his D. On the other hand, she may have preferred the hotel and yet, may not have said it. Having a space to herself may have helped the visit go better.

And you having the "escape time".

If you are committed to the house- perhaps there's a room arrangement where she's on one part, and you two are at the other end. Or give her the room with her own bathroom- or some way there space between you. Plan some "escapes". If she's clingy to you when it's the two of you but clings to your H when he's there, then you cling to him! So he deals with her. If the dynamics between them are creepy- well let him deal with that- he may then feel the creepiness. You may also be subtly peacekeeping when it's the three of you and so being aware of that- you may be able to step back from it.

[livednlearned]

@pursuingjoy I was on a road trip the last two days and had time to think about your question. I'm grateful you asked this because it helped me clarify a few things.

Brave to me means being committed to a marriage that comes with yet another generation of BPD attached.

Brave in the context of ongoing interactions with SD25 means keeping my values intact while neutralizing aggression.

For SD25, me being kind = weak LnL.
Kindness is a weakness that can be exploited.
I am not willing to be unkind (value).

But being mean isn't the opposite of kind.
The opposite of kind is ... being effective.

So brave is remaining kind and neutralizing aggression --> how I am effective.
That means staying in the shared space (commitment to marriage), and remaining kind while being effective in neutralizing SD25.

I put some thought into potential scenarios that feel most threatening about this visit.

One: H leaving me with SD25. An effective way to handle that is to make it clear to H: I'm asking that you do not leave SD25 with me.

Two: SD25 asks to have a solo talk with me. This has happened before. I end up in a kindness headlock. An effective way to thwart is to say: How about write it down. (It took me a long time to think of that one ...).

Three: Excessive preoccupation with somatic/medical issues. This feature has been building for years and is now full-blown. I have been walking out of the room (when she calls to discuss the latest affliction), not asking questions, changing the topic if H brings it up. I'm still trying to figure out a more direct, effective way to handle this. H is currently on tilt with this but can't seem to curb it (he's in healthcare).

I did the math for the whole visit  Total time together = 48 hours. Minus 16 for sleep = 32. Minus 3 to visit with a friend = 29. After SD25 arrives, they'll probably go for a hike and will probably do another the following morning. If it's just SD25, I'll skip both. If other kids come, I'll skip one.

The rest of the time, roughly ~24 hours, I will do what I can to be kind and effective.

I wish I didn't have to think about SD25 and how to handle her. I'm a bit disappointed in myself and embarrassed by the amount of thought it takes to figure out boundaries.

So much went down with SD25 this year and I stayed to the side, a smart choice because like you mentioned @notwendy, it meant natural consequences for H. That is the big improvement these past few years. Me staying in my lane means that H is expressing more authentically how he feels, which means handling more of SD25 issues head on as opposed to rescuing all the time. I guess that's why I'm so wary of this visit. It eliminates some of the mechanisms I've been relying on to keep myself outside the triangle.

[Notwendy]

For SD25, me being kind = weak LnL.
Kindness is a weakness that can be exploited.
I am not willing to be unkind (value).

But being mean isn't the opposite of kind.
The opposite of kind is ... being effective.


I have a similar conflict with my BPD mother. If I am kind to her, it's an opportunity for exploitation. I am not willing to be unkind. However, she doesn't share that value. I also learned in recovery that we can ( and should ) extend that value to ourselves. Be kind to ourselves.

The values are not shared. If we want to be kind to others and also to ourselves- and we are in the presence of someone who is unkind, what do we do?

It helped to reframe "kind". It's a fine line between being kind and being enabling. If we allow them to be unkind to us, we are enabling them to be unkind people. If I allow my BPD mother to be verbally abusive to me, then I am enabling her worst traits, not her best. That isn't being kind. Disengaging may be the "kind" choice.

In the grand scheme of things, I think of it this way- don't enable unwanted behaviors as much as possible but neither should I add to them. If I behave against my own values then that one is on me.

Considering that you are going to be in close contact with D25, I think having some separation is the best case solution. She clings to you at the reception? Go walk over to your H "hi honey" and let her follow ( and so she's with him). Schedule time away for yourself. If things get awkward, have some neutral phrases "I need to think about that" and remove yourself ( go take a break- get some water in the kitchen, go to the restroom ( even if you just close the door and stand there for a moment)

[livednlearned]

@notwendy, I appreciate the way you understand the nuances in these relationships.

A girlfriend said to me, Why not try being rude to see what happens?

She thinks my definition of rude is not really rude.

Sometimes it is hard to know what is a value and what is codependent thinking (for lack of a better way to say it).

[GaGrl]

@notwendy, I appreciate the way you understand the nuances in these relationships.

A girlfriend said to me, Why not try being rude to see what happens?

She thinks my definition of rude is not really rude.

Sometimes it is hard to know what is a value and what is codependent thinking (for lack of a better way to say it).

Your friend may be on to something...

SD25 is clinging at a gathering. You say, "SD25, I am going to circulate and have some conversations -- why don't you do the same."

Even more bluntly...

"SD25, I'm uncomfortable having you so closely attached to me all evening -- it feels clingy. I need you to give me some room."

What do you see as unkind in those statements? (Assume the tone of voice is appropriate.)