BPD Mother is unmanageable

[zachira]

Being authentic is something that infuriates people with BPD and/or NPD who rely so much on projecting and selling their image/false self in the moment.

[Methuen]

On the anxiety front, I'm hoping at least two weeks on NC starts to settle the amygdala.  Honestly, the thing that has made the greatest different in my level of anxiety, has been returning to work out of retirement, ironically.  That has set a clear boundary.  I am basically unavailable for mom's shenanigans.  I'm not NC, but I'm pretty low contact and I only live 6 min from her.  My H took over her grocery shopping, and still mows her lawns and does her small home repairs.  But he knows how to handle her, and doesn't get drawn into anything.  He has boundaries, and won't do for her what she could do herself.  As a result, she gets her friends to do it all instead.

So my point here is that even though you've been LC, your anxiety might be suggesting LLC or NC while you focus on your own wellness and sense of emotional safety.  She is not safe for you, especially not right now.

I've been thinking about this need for a "blow up" we were talking about a bit earlier in the thread.  In my experience, once the blow up happens, they immediately feel better.  They of course carry on with life and feel better, and we are left to pick up our shattered pieces.  Eventually after days, weeks or longer, they get back to their normal, and go on with their life as if nothing ever happened.  The very confusing part for us, is that after a blow up, they feel better.  Really?  What healthy person feels better after a blow up?  How does that work?  I mean, I just don't get it.  But I have observed this pattern in my mom over her (and my) entire life.  So maybe the anxiety is because you afraid the blowup is coming?

She saw you vulnerable when you said "I think it would be hard to handle".  In that moment, little NW emerged, and your mom pounced on that vulnerable moment like a cat on a mouse.  That could set some anxiety festering.

The thing is, you have awareness you lost your "reserve".  I very much doubt you will let that happen again.  If we can't leave the room or situation (you were in a meeting with the social worker), you can always reply with "I have no response".  Period. That gives the social worker time to redirect.  If there is no one else present, you just exit the situation in a friendly way.  This is what I have learned to do.  I just say something like "I have to go now, but I can come back when everyone is feeling better".  If I'm not feeling better, I don't go  back until I'm feeling better.  That gives her lots of time to self-soothe.  Just because you were vulnerable in that moment, doesn't mean it will repeat itself.  You have time to prepare.  To think.  To make a plan.  You have tools, and you know how to use them.  It really sucks that she keeps putting you in these positions that you have to use these tools, but that's the nature of the disease.  It knocks us down for a while after a strike, but somehow we keep getting up and recovering (until the next time).  I like to think that each time it happens we get a little smarter.  They on the other hand, keep getting older with more older person problems.  From what you have written, your mom surely has a file on her in the home care office that is quite thick.  

The last time my mom had a full on RAGE, I recorded it on my phone.  It helped me because I knew I was recording my own response to her.  When I played it back to my H when he got home from work, his jaw dropped and stayed there from what he heard my mom saying.  In that state, I think she crossed the line from rational to irrational and "mad" in the psycho definition of the term.  But he was equally impressed with how I handled her.  So was my T.  But I don't know if I could have done it without the recording, if that makes sense.  It was a tool which helped me keep myself in check.  In a sense, it helped protect little Methuen.  The only other use I have for that recording, is to know that it is objective evidence that her behavior is not inside my head.  They like to gaslight us.  I would not use it for any other reason. 

[Methuen]

Couscous I loved that video  so much I watched a longer piece of it.  Oh my.   

[Notwendy]

Couscous- ha ha that video

Yes, she doesn't take no for an answer. "No" to her is a challenge. Maybe that's at play when she asks if I want something. If I say no, she keeps asking "do you want this?" and finally I need to know now what you want. Say "no" to her and she will keep asking until you just say yes to get her to stop. I have learned to not give in, but it's tough.

Methuen, you are right about the LLC/NC. I usually take some NC time to recoup and I will now. Also the blow ups and even the mini ones. I compare it to a kid who ate too much candy and gets a stomach ache. The kid throws up, then feels better and runs off to play as if nothing happened. We are left with the mess. It's like she threw up on us. For her, it's as if nothing happened and she expects us to pretend it didn't happen either.

Even the mini projections. There's an icky feeling. We all know what that is when that happens.

[Notwendy]

I think BPD mother is trying to have a crisis situation, or mentally she's becoming in a crisis. And she's trying to manipulate. She's had several visits to the ER- all turning out OK but with symptoms like dizziness, nausea, some due to her not being compliant with her medicine. She's needing more home support care. Her nurse manager says she's asking about me.

After another ER visit, I called her to check on her. She was her usual self and I said I'd speak to her the next day. About an hour later she calls- in tears. All apologetic ( for what, she won't say- but is probing "tell me what I have done to hurt you" and I don't know what she's alluding to exactly, but neither does she-- what she does is set up the situation where you tell her something and we know where that goes.

She's done this twice now and as soon as she gets tearful - she snaps out of it quickly.

GC is going to visit her soon. When I remind her of this, she doesn't seem to be content- and keeps on asking me. There's an agenda.

Then there's the reality. She's elderly, on her own and has no business being in charge of herself, even if she's legally competent. Why is she focusing on me and not GC? For one, the grandchildren live closer to me- but not as close as she imagines. They have their own lives. I also live closer to her than to GC.

The imaginary plan I once had before I understood BPD, as my father's health got worse, to be closer to me, but in another nearby city where there were more resources and cultural events they'd be interested in- a manageable distance but where we could each have our own privacy as well. There were more choices of retirement communities with health care on hand as needed. I knew that BPD mother would not be able to be a caretaker for my father and this way, he would have care and she'd have her basic needs met as well. They both rejected this suggestion and the ensuing drama made this impossible but this is the idea that BPD mother is bringing up now.

Now, though, things are different. This situation would have suited Dad who liked to be very active. The idea of BPD mother alone in a strange place where she doesn't know anyone would be a nightmare. She also now needs more than a retirement community- she needs assisted living but she's not cooperative with care givers.

From time to time, BPD mother would fixate on the "one thing" that is a solution to her unhappiness. It would either be a vacation she wanted, or something she had to buy, or moving, or some external idea and Dad would make it happen for her. She has no idea of the planning or cost of her ideas. When she wants something, she's persistent. I know exactly what she's doing.

And yes, she's elderly, alone, mentally ill, and it's unmanageable. Someone needs to take charge and she won't let them. The other part of my "imaginary- if only plan" was that before she needed this, her children would have access to her finances and know her needs, medical and mental health and cooperate with us so we could actually help find resources that match them. And she'd have to trust us, which she doesn't and we don't trust her. Sure, she will tearfully promise until she gets what she wants. I know this situation, and yet, I am not heartless and the reality is she's elderly alone and with the capacity of a child to follow through on any kind of plan for herself except for her manipulative skills, which are far better than mine are.

I will not get into the "who hurt who" discussion. I know where that goes. Her idea of us helping her is ordering us around and demanding what she wants but that isn't realistic. She needs to give us financial POA If she's running low on funds, we need to know this. If she is running low on funds, she may need to apply for Medicaid. We need a realistic picture of what she has and what is affordable for her. She needs to give us medical POA so we know what he needs are. It's not that we want to control her, but we need an open and workable situation to even consider her wishes. If she doesn't want to do this, or won't do this, that's her decision. I don't expect her to change.

Waif is the hardest. I can't tell if these ER visits are because of her emotional/medical needs or if she's somehow making a crisis, or both. She is what she is, but we know she's limited in her ability to manage on her own. The impasse is whether she will allow anyone to manage for her for her own good.


 

[Methuen]

I think BPD mother is trying to have a crisis situation, or mentally she's becoming in a crisis. And she's trying to manipulate. She's had several visits to the ER- all turning out OK but with symptoms like dizziness, nausea, some due to her not being compliant with her medicine. She's needing more home support care. Her nurse manager says she's asking about me.

OMG this is a copy of  my mother.  Asking about you - could it be because she knows she can manipulate your feelings? Dizziness and nausea.  My mother actually wore gravol patches for years, but now they stopped making them, so she takes andansetron if she needs to.  These symptoms mirror her stress levels and dysregulations in my opinion.  She always impressed her suffering on  me, but refuses to see her doc for help or seek specialists to get to the root of the problem.  Her mental illness and it’s impact on me is why I came out of retirement and went back to work.  You are right- waif is terrible.  I can’t help her as she  is complex and has undiagnosed psych issues which are  not recognized.  The medical system simply sees her as a elderly patient with chronic health issues. My mom is also noncompliant with some meds.

I don’t know what to say or how to help. This is also my life.

We are stuck.

They need care.  

I had to accept that my mom has the right to do things her way, which is a path to  more suffering and self-destruction.  All I can do is manage my own wellness with that in mind.

About your mom’s persistence to “explain what you mean”.  I think the elderly can “fixate” on a problem when they are in a negative space and  have too much time on their hands.  It’s exhausting and wearing  for us on the receiving end. Knowing you will never have this conversation with her is such a necessary boundary. But she will continue to be relentless at trying to break you down.

She's elderly, on her own and has no business being in charge of herself, even if she's legally competent.

My sentiments exactly.

Why is she focusing on me and not GC? For one, the grandchildren live closer to me- but not as close as she imagines. They have their own lives. I also live closer to her than to GC.

I’m going out on a limb here and just posing a hunch which could be dead wrong.  You are very compassionate, and she knows full well her power over you, so is it possible she sees you as the more vulnerable daughter to be manipulated to have her needs met?  

As for your well meaning and caring imaginary plans - I can relate.  But with BPD in the mix, I’ve accepted it’s magical thinking on our part.

I have financial POA, but mom never granted healthcare POA.  Unless you get both, I wouldn’t go down the roads you are feeling obligations for, as it gets worse than it already is for you now, in my experience.  

My life is not my own.  I shouldn’t have to work to escape from my mother.  My life choices don’t feel like my own.  

Nobody in my world could possibly understand that.  But most people on this forum get it.

You aren’t alone.  

The impasse is whether she will allow anyone to manage POA’s for her for her own good.

This sounds  like a firm boundary.  Otherwise non-negotiable.

[Methuen]

Also, would your GC sister  be willing to be the one to have the conversation with your mother  that it might be time for her to assign financial and health care POA - maybe together with the social worker?

[madeline7]

NotWendy,
As I read your last post, again I am amazed at the similarities between our mothers. Mine is in Assisted Living now, and I still marvel at how that came to be, since she still has capacity, but at some point, signed the papers and went through with it. It was a long and grueling process to get her to willingly sign off on that, being that she has capacity. During 1 conversation with her Dr.prior to going into AL, I told him I was concerned for her safety  because even though she had capacity, she also has emotional dysregulation and does not make safe and rational decisions.  He explained that this was a complicated case, and may need to wait for "discovery" to do anything about it. He meant that she might have to end up in the ER multiple times for the medical profession to determine she was unsafe living on her own. She did end up in ER after a fall, had multiple fractures, needed surgery but refused. It took 5 medical professionals several days to determine she did have capacity, but they called her irrational. She had been screaming and carrying on, at first they thought was had dementia or a UTI with confusion. But no, she was just being herself. In the end, they let my sister sign off for the surgery, because without it, she would have lost the use of her arm. By this time she was more compliant and went along with the Dr's, but it was such an ordeal. Her Dr and a Social Worker I spoke with prior to her admission to AL told me that as difficult as it would be, to allow for "discovery", because otherwise they would be treating me as well as it would have caused me to become overwhelmed and was harmful to my health. Things have improved to some degree since she has been in AL. The SW there said most people adjust once there, but can take up to 6 months. Well, guess what? My Mother has been there for 3 years and she has not and will not ever adjust. What has improved is my quality of life. She is well taken care of, but not happy. Thing is, she has never been happy, but at least she is safe.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
My BPD mother groomed one of my brothers from birth to be her caretaker. When he was dying of cancer, she abused him so badly social services had to get involved, because she was upset he would not be around to take care of her. Then my other brother, a family scapegoat like me, decided he would take care of mom, and he did for years despite all the abuse. I tried to get him out of this role, and my NPD sister made it clear she would not get involved.
 
I have lots of respect for many members on PSI including: Methuen, Madeline7, Notwendy, who have managed to have their own lives, own families, and not turn into full time live in caretakers for their BPD mother like my brother did for many years.



..

[Notwendy]

Thanks for all your replies. It helps to know that others are in a similar situation, although I am sorry you are dealing with this too.

Methuen, why me and not GC? While she can also be verbally and emotionally abusive with GC, GC has also been the one she sees as the child- the less of the caretaker/rescuer one. Their relationship has been more parent-child while I am the one who was parentified. When my father was ill, I perceived an unspoken expectation that I would be in a caretaker role, one I was willing to assist with - in my ideas but the reality was disordered dynamics and verbal/emotional abuse and her refusal to cooperate with me. Since she doesn't make the connection of how her behavior interferes with people's attempts to help them, she doesn't seem to know why their efforts are not effective.

Her expectations have not changed. With my father, she has been able to proclaim a tearful "I am sorry I love you". I can see how hard that had so be for him and these later night calls with her crying " I am sorry for whatever I did please tell me" are so difficult to hear. I don't want her to feel like that. I don't want her to apologize and I don't trust the sincerity of her calls.


Before any discussion of moving to assisted living anywhere- if she wants my involvement in any capacity, I need to see solid evidence of her needs and her resources because this information is needed in order to make that decision. The AL has to be affordable and it has to meet her health care needs. In a normal situation, the parent asking for the adult child's assistance is transparent about that and just gives that to them willingly. There is mutual trust between them. The parent knows the child will have their best interest in mind and that the child will consider their wishes and choices. The child knows the parent is being honest about their finances and medical needs.

This mutual trust and respect is not present in my relationship with BPD mother. She'd trust her hairdresser's neighbor's third cousin's husband before she'd trust her own kids. And we can't trust what she tells us. The only way I can know these things for sure is with financial POA and medical POA. For financial- I need a printout of every account and every loan. I don't need all her medical records but I need some kind of summary of her needs, her medicines, and the level of support she needs. I assume this is what an AL will ask for but what she would want from me is some kind of promise for a place she would want without me knowing if she can afford it or it can meet her needs and any mismatch would not work for her.

Methuen, she may be more agreeable to work with GC and if that topic comes up during the visit and she's willing to give GC access, then I am fine with that. GC  will share it with me. We shall see how that goes.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I just wanted to say I am sorry for the devolving of the situation with your mother. The teary phone calls must be awfully traumatic for you on an emotional level.

You keep asking why you and not golden child... Why does she keep calling you to ask how she hurt you... And you may never know the answer to that.

Thinking about my own mother, and basing myself on her behavior... BPD mothers are not always dysregulated. Some times, they end up face to face with what they did, and for a short time, they see it, until the shame becomes too much to bear and they have to release it on someone else again.

My mother once admitted out of her own volition that she screamed at me so badly that I stopped talking to her for four hours... She presented it as me being a child with a strong caracter, but also seemed deeply uncomfortable and ended up saying, out of the tips of her lips, that she was sorry. She wasn't dysregulated. She could see how she hurt us at that precise moment. It happens, very rarely, when she is in a particularly good mood, and regulated...which is part of why having a BPD mother can be so hard and traumatizing. It's the constant switching.

From my point of view : it is possible that your mother know what she did to you, as she is approaching death. She might be looking to make amends, but her illness won't let her. Thinking about you and what she did is a trigger for her dysregulation.

It is outside your control. It is outside her control.

I personally need to believe that under the veil of the illness : our mothers loved us and deeply sorry for what they did, but they cannot stand the shame, and so cannot admit it fully to themselves.

You felt like the scapegoat, and you felt that your sister was the golden child. But as part of the disease...the most parentified and abused child might be the actual favorite, I think... The closer they feel to us, the more enraged and abusive they are.

I certainly was... Both the favorite AND the main scapegoat. The one expected to be the closest to her, to take care of her, of my brothers, of everyone, because I was strong and rational. She loved me so much that she couldn't bear seeing me love anyone else, and resented me, rejected for it.

Just a hunch... And might not be true. But a story to maybe appease little notwendy in there.

You cannot have the discussion with her, and will never be able to.. but if she could say it...chances are she is sorry, but is so very ashamed of herself that she cannot face it.

However, it is not your role to carry her shame for her either...  And this is absolutely not to make you feel guilty. She is. She did what she did, and it is completely on her. Just trying to rationalize her current behaviors.

I personally prefer to look at my mother like a hurt, scared child, not to excuse her behaviors, but because it feels less triggering and scary than the rageful manipulative adult she sometimes acts like... Easier to manage maybe.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf made me think of something, that the scapegoat child might really be the favorite child for the BPD mother because it is usually the scapegoat child that is capable of empathy whereas the golden child may be a narcissist, like my sister.

[Couscous]

Further to what RW wrote, I wonder if disordered parents do not trust their kids to take care of them in their old age because deep down inside they are aware that they have mistreated them, and so fear that their children will want to seek revenge on them by abandoning them in an old-folks home, or stealing their money. This would be consistent with their mistrust/abuse schema.

[Notwendy]

CG isn't a narcissist but has been the more needy child in ways. I think she sees me as the more capable one. Interesting idea that a scapegoat child might be the favorite, I haven't seen it in that way.

I agree, she does act like a child, but a child with legal adult rights who needs to be in control.

Interesting thought that she might not trust the children she mistreated. Possibly. I think maybe it's that- if she would do it, she'd assume I would too. For instance, if she knows she lied to me, then she assumes I would like to her. If she knows she has treated people poorly, then she can assume others will do that too. Since pwBPD project on the people closest to them, then it makes sense she'd trust a stranger before she'd trust us. On the other hand, I don't know if she makes the connection between how she treats people and how they may react to her.

[zachira]

I am still so intrigued with Riv3rWOlf's suggestion that the scapegoated child could be the favorite child in some ways over the Golden Child. Think about all the strengths that the scapegoat has and how the scapegoat is continually chosen to be the caretaker of the dysfunctional parent. It has been healing for me to read about the positive traits we scapegoats have that made us be chosen to be the scapegoat. My Golden Child narcissistic sister refused to take care of her husband when he broke his back, enlisted family, friends, and people from her church to take care of her husband. At one point, she took a two week vacation insisting she was the one suffering and needed a break. When our brother was dying and could pass away any day, our sister was upset that he was not paying attention to her and had become a drug addict from all the morphine he was taking to alleviate unbearable pain. Notwendy, do you think your golden child sibling would be able to provide the kindness, caring, and generosity that you provide your mother with, because this is the kind of person you are, and as you have stated many times, you would not feel comfortable not being involved at all in helping your mother? Notwendy, do you think your mother is aware of how people like and love you in ways that she will never be?

[Notwendy]

GC is empathetic. I think she sees me as the more capable caretaker. I know she doesn't like me better.

Thank you for the kind words. She'd have no idea what anyone else thinks of me. We have completely different social circles. Truly, if someone is in her circle, I consider them to be a potential flying monkey and don't interact with them much- it's better that she has her own circle.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
As you have said, you and your mother have completely different social circles, and the ones in her circle are potential flying monkeys, and you believe your mother has no idea what people think of you. You have differentiated yourself as a separate person from  your mother, become a person in your own right, something to be extremely proud of. It makes me think of how a SIL of my father, tried to tell a mother of one of my cousins what a great daughter she had, and she literally had no idea, despite her daughter being one of the most popular people in her little town. The mother on the other hand, had no friends and operated on a completely different wave length from her daughter.

[Methuen]

But as part of the disease...the most parentified and abused child might be the actual favorite, I think... The closer they feel to us, the more enraged and abusive they are.

I certainly was... Both the favorite AND the main scapegoat. The one expected to be the closest to her, to take care of her, of my brothers, of everyone, because I was strong and rational. She loved me so much that she couldn't bear seeing me love anyone else, and resented me, rejected for it.

 Riv3rw0lf, I agree, but would tend towards switching out the word "favorite" for "safest".  Perhaps they choose one person to be the scapegoat, because they have a reason to feel safer scapegoating that person.  

NW, could this fit with why your mom scapegoated you instead of your sister?  Perhaps your mom sees something in you that makes her feel you are a safer place to project her toxic emotions on? ...like the better caregiver...or?

I once had a T suggest to me that it was a bit of a messed up compliment that my mom felt safe enough to vomit her toxic emotions on me.  

[Methuen]

I wonder if disordered parents do not trust their kids to take care of them in their old age because deep down inside they are aware that they have mistreated them, and so fear that their children will want to seek revenge on them by abandoning them in an old-folks home, or stealing their money. This would be consistent with their mistrust/abuse schema.

Yep.  This.  Or because they have mistreated us, they assume the whole world operates like they do, and therefore we WILL mistreat them in return when they are vulnerable.

[Couscous]

Or because they have mistreated us, they assume the whole world operates like they do, and therefore we WILL mistreat them in return when they are vulnerable.

I’m sure that’s part of it. Another part is that one of the assumptions they have is:

10. I am an evil person and I need to be punished for it. (Hat tip to Turkish.)

Another aspect is that people like this will deliberately behave badly in order to provoke you into Persecuting them, and they will stop at nothing until they finally get a reaction, at which point they have won the game of “Gotcha!”, because now they can be a Victim, which is where they feel most comfortable on the drama triangle.

In my case, because most of my family are quite willing to hit below the belt, and they know where my vulnerabilities lie, my only option is to keep my distance.

[Methuen]

Another aspect is that people like this will deliberately behave badly in order to provoke you into Persecuting them, and they will stop at nothing until they finally get a reaction, at which point they have won the game of “Gotcha!”, because now they can be a Victim, which is where they feel most comfortable on the drama triangle.

What a perfectly articulated summary. 

[Notwendy]

I think it makes sense that she'd assume  that I'd treat her like she treats me but I don't think I could do that. I surely don't want to. I also think there's a need on her part to have a persecutor and she does provoke people or put them in that position.

I thought the issue of "moving near me" was settled but I see a possible pattern here. She did agree with the social worker to look at assisted living places near her but then didn't follow through with that.  When she decides on something she wants, nothing else will do. You can't even substitute one brand of soup for another if the store is out of the brand she wants. She HAS to have that exact soup or else and will push to get what she wants. Boundaries, saying no, means nothing. Her ability to get people to give in to her requests exceeds what most people can manage.

If she wants something and hears a "no" she takes other strategies - one being not revealing what it is that she wants and then enlisting others to carry out her wishes in an indirect way. I think part of my feeling of unease is that, when she calls me all teary, I feel as if she's got some other agenda.

It also feels abusive to call up crying that she's unhappy and still hide her financial information from us because we have no way to know if she's OK financially or is having concerns.