She texted my sister...

[Depression = 72% of members]

Why is it important to hinge this on all one person (her) or the other (you)?  Could it be a situation where there were mistakes by both, but the relationship just wasn't functional? 

Dear GreenMango,

With all due respect, many people have been asking me this question, when the answer is quite simple and obvious to me. I'll try to make it clear to you, too.

Of course I have serious issues myself. Of course I have great personality deficiences or perhaps even distortions. Of course I made mistakes in my r/s with the exgf and her child.

Nonetheless, if she is BPD, it means that my issues and deficiences and mistakes were not the critical causes that dissolved our r/s. If she is BPD, then it was only a matter of time when she would dump me. If she is BPD, it would have made no difference to the conclusion of our r/s, even if I was perfect and had made no mistakes.

Even if I had divorced my wife from day 1, even if I had been the best stepfather for her child, even if I had attended her every need, even if I had satisfied her every wish, even if I had fulfilled her every demand, it would have made no difference! She would have eventually dumped me anyway! She would have married me, she would have had our child and then she would have cheated on me and dumped me in cold-blood, exactly like she did to her ex-husband. And then I would have to cope with her for the rest of my life!

Her being BPD makes a tremendous difference, because then I can be certain beyond doubt about what my future with her would have been like.

In contrast, if she's not BPD, the ''what if... .'' questions will never get out of my mind and I will always be blaming myself for wasting the love of my life.

It's really as simple as that. No black and white thinking. Just inductive reasoning... .

[TonyK]

Why is it important to hinge this on all one person (her) or the other (you)?  Could it be a situation where there were mistakes by both, but the relationship just wasn't functional? 

Dear GreenMango,

With all due respect, many people have been asking me this question, when the answer is quite simple and obvious to me. I'll try to make it clear to you, too.

Of course I have serious issues myself. Of course I have great personality deficiences or perhaps even distortions. Of course I made mistakes in my r/s with the exgf and her child.

Nonetheless, if she is BPD, it means that my issues and deficiences and mistakes were not the critical causes that dissolved our r/s. If she is BPD, then it was only a matter of time when she would dump me. If she is BPD, it would have made no difference to the conclusion of our r/s, even if I was perfect and had made no mistakes.

Even if I had divorced my wife from day 1, even if I had been the best stepfather for her child, even if I had attended her every need, even if I had satisfied her every wish, even if I had fulfilled her every demand, it would have made no difference! She would have eventually dumped me anyway! She would have married me, she would have had our child and then she would have cheated on me and dumped me in cold-blood, exactly like she did to her ex-husband. And then I would have to cope with her for the rest of my life!

Her being BPD makes a tremendous difference, because then I can be certain beyond doubt about what my future with her would have been like.

In contrast, if she's not BPD, the ''what if... .'' questions will never get out of my mind and I will always be blaming myself for wasting the love of my life.

It's really as simple as that. No black and white thinking. Just inductive reasoning... .

[TonyK]

Poodle and charred:

I think the three of us use the term ''triangulation (read definition)'', however we mean different things.

I was referring to Karpman drama triangle and probably misused the term ''triangulation (read definition)''.

[GreenMango]

Tony we all drag stuff into these relationships.  None of us would be here if we didn't we would have heeded the signs.

I ask about the confirmation of BPD because its very unlikely that a diagnosis will happen.  In therapy pros are reluctant to give the diagnosis for a lot reasons.  A big one is the risk the patient runs and denies because the defense mechanisms and poor coping skills.  They focus on behavior and destructive stuff.

You may not get that confirmation but you can look at what you needed, like honesty or fidelity or calmness in a relationship, and measure that to what you actually had while with her.  It's hard if we are emotionally raw to take a step back a little and look mindfully at what was going on with a mix of logic and emotion instead of just emotions.

Did you get what you needed in a relationship from her?

[myself]

Nonetheless, if she is BPD, it means that my issues and deficiences and mistakes were not the critical causes that dissolved our r/s. If she is BPD, then it was only a matter of time when she would dump me. If she is BPD, it would have made no difference to the conclusion of our r/s, even if I was perfect and had made no mistakes.

Her being BPD makes a tremendous difference, because then I can be certain beyond doubt about what my future with her would have been like.

In contrast, if she's not BPD, the ''what if... .'' questions will never get out of my mind and I will always be blaming myself for wasting the love of my life.

TonyK, the stuff you're looking at is what a lot of posts here could be whittled down to. Was it them or was it us? Of course it's a mixture of both, but I know where you're coming from and feel for you having been there too (not that it's quite 'past-tense' yet).

Looking at what you did, and how you were with her, versus how she was with you, how does it honestly all add up to you? If you're seeing you did more wrong than her, then it may well be on you. If you did what you could, and she couldn't reciprocate (or not enough), it may be more on her. Since you're not her therapist, you can't diagnose her, same as I've never been able to actually 100% claim my ex has BPD. I just don't know. Her actions seem to point this way, and from all the research trying to figure out how best to help our relationship, while inside of it, and trying to figure it out when we've been broken up. Sadly, a PD is very likely. Nothing else comes close. I deal with my own stuff with a really good T, so I'm pretty aware of what's mine and what's not. Please continue digging into what is yours, because it's really most important to your own progress no matter if you're with this particular woman or someone else or not.

I have to say, there's no way for any of us to be 'certain beyond doubt' about the future. I know someone who has been married a long time, has a good family, no PD's going on, and her husband's dying of cancer. It came out of nowhere. They're devastated, but dealing with it as best they can. Love, commitment, trust, and ___ happens. It's different, but... .Knowing that your ex has BPD or not would not change the future. I know you mean it as in maybe you could have handled things differently, but again, how did you already handle them? Were you loving with her? Were you nice with her? I found out 2 years ago my gf could have BPD and I stayed with her, validated, changed my own patterns, etc. She still left. I still have to ask myself 'where do I go from here?'

Plus, as Green Mango asked:

Did you get what you needed in a relationship from her?

Whether she is disordered or not, rich or poor, whatever: How was she with you? What made you call it quits? Whatever name you want to call it, how did it affect you? Are you better off still being a part of that, or better off without? It's about You, not her.

[Rose Tiger]

I don't know if this is revelant or not but that's never stopped me before.    When I think about my part of the dance, I tend to pick the same type over and over.  If a person is continually attracted to the same unhealthy relationship, then the issue lies with the person.  Or in my case, working on my own troubled past and deciphering why I keep picking the same type.  May not be your experience TonyK, just throwing it out there.

[TonyK]

Happy New Year everybody! 

There's a brand new episode in this thread, which compels me to report anew to the board. I entered my e-mail account a few minutes ago, in order to send an irrelevant e-mail to a friend, but, instead, I found an e-mail from the potentially BPDexgf in my inbox.

The message was delivered today, approximately 1 1/2 hour ago. It writes:

''Without intending, I found out that you're into therapy. This piece of information gave me the necessary push forward, because I don't hide from you that all the evil you spewed up on me all the time we were together, as well as during the months that followed our break-up, had literally detained me until very recently. I will find the room for forgiveness, too, without any help, but I'll make it. Goodbye.

P.S.: As a final favor, I ask you not to respond to me.''


Is this absolutely crazy and meaningless, or am I crazy?

She is trying to suck me back in, isn't she?

[Newton]

Tony I don't mean to make light of your situation at all... .  it sucks... .  I had a wry smile on my face as I read her words to you.  I have a very similar txt from my ex on my old phone... .  

ie/ "Newton you are in therapy so YOU are the one with issues and the one to blame for our troubles (projection and denial)... .  I have to struggle on alone with no help (guilt trip)... .  

The last line of her email is begging you to respond... .  will you?

[Rose Tiger]

So you in therapy confirms for her that you are the one with issues.  Nice little twist on reality.  She can not absorb for one moment that she had any part in you seeking therapy.  What will irk her the most is complete silence.  She pokes but good.  And throwing in the I wasn't done until NOW.  Another hook!

Do you see it?  The pull?  Of course she wants to play but by her rules.  That you are evil, you are the only one with issues.  Can you play that game?

[TonyK]

Tony I don't mean to make light of your situation at all... .  it sucks... .  I had a wry smile on my face as I read her words to you.  I have a very similar txt from my ex on my old phone... .  

ie/ "Newton you are in therapy so YOU are the one with issues and the one to blame for our troubles (projection and denial)... .  I have to struggle on alone with no help (guilt trip)... .  

The last line of her email is begging you to respond... .  will you?

Hi, there, Newton and Rose! Thanks for responding and it's really nice to hear from you again, my friends  

Firstly, I'm really awed by the similarity of the two messages! It's amazing, isn't it? It's a pattern. It's the first time in all those months I really believe she's crazy. And, to be frank, I'm a bit scared right now... .  

I will reply today, late at night. I expected her contact, after her attempt to contact me through my sister ''failed''. She did buy it, that my sister didn't relay the message to me. I outsmarted her and it feels good... .  Her disorder forced her to contact me directly. She couldn't have helped it.

I think that I can and I think that I will play that game. I know all you nice people strongly disagree, but I feel in control of this round.   

[coffees86]

Tony - second doubt whether you really want to play it! There is no win! So another round will probably only result in losers - what's there to win for you this round?

[Newton]

You will do what you need to do... .  what do you hope to achieve by using the knowledge you have now to manipulate her?... .  

another question... .  what are you scared of?... .  

I'll be frank... .  a response to her seems like subtle revenge on your part... .  

[Rose Tiger]

Is it facing your fears kind of thing?  The major concern is further loss of self esteem for you.  Well that and false domestic violence charges.    Go in with eyes wide open, my friend.

[TonyK]

I haven't decided yet.

[TonyK]

I'm an engineer! My background is to always put theory in action, to implement theoretical things into practice.

Maybe that's it. I've read so much theory about BPD in here, that I'm now so eager to turn the darn ''machine'' on and see if it ''operates'' according to theory.

I'm curious. Yes, yes, I know, curiosity killed the cat, I know, I know... .   

[Newton]

Well as a logical deductive man I can see how the empirical approach will suit your purpose 

Unfortunately this experiment could cause you yet more pain... .  

So what's this about?... .  perhaps proving she has BPD will soothe your negative feelings?... .  

The feelings that sound out in thoughts like "I tried my best... .  I gave my all... .  this isn't my fault!, could I have done something different that would have resulted in a better outcome"... .  ?

[TonyK]

Well as a logical deductive man I can see how the empirical approach will suit your purpose 

Unfortunately this experiment could cause you yet more pain... .  

Newton, my friend, I know. Believe me, I know she will strike me more. But, this is no longer a major issue for me. I'm no longer so sensitive to what she says or does. My skin is so much thicker after the whole experience. My life is on a different path now. There are other issues in my life that concern me more. Much more serious issues. 

So what's this about?... .  perhaps proving she has BPD will soothe your negative feelings?... .  

What I'm looking for is to put the gravestone in the right position and seal the grave of our failed r/s for good, so that the stink of it's rotting corp does no longer poisson the air of my life. And, thus, I will move on, once and for all. Excuse me for sounding a bit poetic, it was an inspiration of the moment... .  

The feelings that sound out in thoughts like "I tried my best... .  I gave my all... .  this isn't my fault!, could I have done something different that would have resulted in a better outcome"... .  ?

Also true... .  

It's a magnificent feeling right now. It's been so carefully designed from before the gimme-back-my-coat contact. Every piece of it, every move, carefully planned and executed, precise like clockwork. Have you ever felt this feeling? When theory matches the experimental finding? When prediction is validated by reality? Oh, it just feels so good... .  

[Newton]

I can hear in the tone of your typing (I hope that makes sense!)... .  that you have turned a corner... .  

I'm so pleased for you... .  it sounds like your head is well above the fog now!... .  

I would offer a word of caution... .  it's your choice to heed it or not.  People with BPD can be very predictable in their responses, behavioral patterns and language... .  and they can also be predictably unpredictable, behaving in ways we could not conjure up in our darkest times.

My point is that yes... .  the knowledge we gain here gives us power over them... .  but with that power comes responsibility... .  

It's really important that you examine the motives that may lead you to respond to this email from her.  Whats the emotion that is driving that possible behaviour?... .  

Your response will give you temporary satisfaction that you now know how to beat her at her own game... .  isn't this a little bit vengeful?

Silence will send a clear message that you've had enough... .  it will give you your closure.

You are obviously a very intelligent man... .  do you need to prove that to someone who is mentally ill?

ps... .  wax lyrical as much as you see fit... .  I do!   

[poodlemom]

Please forgive me if this sounds snarky or rude, I don't mean it to, I just calls em as I sees em... .  

It sounds to me like you DO want to re-engage. Like you DO want to keep playing the game. Do you think she really cares if you "think" you manipulated or outsmarted her? NO. She cares that she hooked you back in thus proving to her that she still has the power. From reading your recent posts, it appears she does still have power over you otherwise you wouldn't be so fixated on responding/winning a game in which she initiated by contacting your sister. To have avoided this, there should never even have been a reply from your sister, no matter how clever it seemed. Don't you see how this just keeps the contact going. You have to fight through the urge to play. The greatest weapon you have against her is  your profound and deafening silence. It takes two to tango so let her find someone else to dance with. When I have the urge to respond, I hit the delete button and say "there, take that!" It can be soo satisfying. Let her sit there checking her email everyday and feeling frustrated that she has in fact lost the game.

Wishing you well as you let go and move on. Deny her the thing she really wants which is more drama.

Hugs... .  

Poodle

[myself]

Maybe that's it. I've read so much theory about BPD in here, that I'm now so eager to turn the darn ''machine'' on and see if it ''operates'' according to theory.

I'm curious. Yes, yes, I know, curiosity killed the cat, I know, I know... .   

If it's quacking and walking, right? Thing is, she's not a 'machine'. She's a human being. Disordered, could be, but proving that one way or the other won't help you very much. Haven't you already seen enough proof, anyway? You're no longer in the relationship. Whatever reasons were there were there. Also: Putting yourself in her shoes, how would you feel to be considered an 'experiment'? (Not that she'd know, but... .  )

As Newton said, "Silence will send a clear message that you've had enough." To yourself, as well. Best to move along from this, live a calmer life. No more push and pull.

[TonyK]

The opposition has spoken, loud and clear.

Now, those in favor, please raise their hands... .  

Somebody... .  

Anybody?

Nobody?

[oletimefeelin]

Tony,

This whole scenario is very interesting.  I had wondered if the whole dry cleaning thing was calculated and you answered that question.  Part of me says see what happens.  Then I wonder is there something else he's being dishonest about here?  How much "proof" will you need?  Do you need to see this in loving color one more time?

No matter how much proof you have, you are still left with you.  Your own baggage and whatever you brought into this unhealthy dance with this complicated woman.  At some point, the music will stop here and that's what you are left with.  Is that possibly the reason why you continue to engage her?  That it's easier than focusing on your own issues.  She's a necessary distraction for you.

Do you have any sense for where she's getting the information that you are seeing a therapist?  Did you plant this as well?

Silence will always win. 

[petkn]

Hi TonyK

I don't interact on this site much but I would just like to say. Please do what you feel you need to. Nobody is right or wrong with the advice you are given it will always rest firmly on your shoulders what ever you decide to do.

Will it give you closure, who knows, will it cause you more pain who knows. Only you have the answer to these questions.

Will it cause your ex pain, maybe it will but again only she will know. From my interaction with my ex when I have tried to use psychological tools on her it did create pain for her but as she has told me on many occasions she hates herself and I know this. I did this to try and affirm the BPD diagnosis a doctor, psychologist and T had already told me they firmly believed she had it from my description.

Did it give me closure? I'm not sure yet as its the 3rd NC IN 8 months this one has lasted 10 weeks. Will she contact again? Probably. Am I in a better a place to deal with her, I hope so... .  

We all have to do whatever we feel like doing, my friends and family tell me never to have contact with her, heck even my T on the final session I had with her stated on the way out of the door "please please don't have any further contact with this mentally unstable young lady".

Did I listen? Heck no I will always do what I want to do nobody can tell me different it's the way I was made. Never been a sheep and never will be.

My son when he was younger kept pretending to touch the oven and every time I would say no it will burn. Eventually after 20 times of him pretending I said go on then, yup he burnt his hand, not badly I might add just in case child services come calling

He never did it again so what I'm trying to say is if you get burned you get burned learn from it move on.

Only you can decide how bad your burn will be.

Hope all that made sense.

Take care TonyK I wish you well on your decision.

[TonyK]

Do you have any sense for where she's getting the information that you are seeing a therapist?  Did you plant this as well?

Of course I did. It was mentioned in my ''sister's'' reply (which was written by me, of course) to her original message. It's been already reported in detail in a previous post of this thread. You may refer to it in page 2, I think, or maybe 1.

[TonyK]

My son when he was younger kept pretending to touch the oven and every time I would say no it will burn. Eventually after 20 times of him pretending I said go on then, yup he burnt his hand, not badly I might add just in case child services come calling

He never did it again so what I'm trying to say is if you get burned you get burned learn from it move on.

Only you can decide how bad your burn will be.

Exactly, my dear petkn! Thank you so much!

[Tausk]

the disorder always wins. The only way not to lose is not to engage. No contact no contact no contact. Otherwise more pain more pain more pain.

[Suzn]

Could you refresh my memory, why is it that your in therapy Tony?

[TonyK]

Could you refresh my memory, why is it that your in therapy Tony?

Good one, dear Suzn, thank you! 

OK, now allow me to explain.

It's been precisely therapy that's revealed that I still breed this unconscious hope that the potBPDexgf will return to me, in fact all regretted for what she's done. My ego seems to stubbornly persist on achieving this ''victory'', despite the fact that on the intellectual level I have fully grasped the detrimental effects of continuing my involvement with this woman.

The particular unconscious core generating this hope has been detected, but it has so far exhibited fierce resistance and it hasn't been feasible to break it yet. In my mind, this calls for radical, albeit controlled action.

I need to ''burn'' myself in the oven, as petkn so eloquently put it previously, in a - as much as possible - controlled manner, in order to bend or, even better, break this unconscious hope, once and for all.

That's the main tactical idea behind all this, the strategic target being always fixed: full detachment and moving on.   

I like to perceive this a bit like a chess game: sometimes one has to deliberately sacrifice a number of pawns, in order to advance one's strategy towards the final scope.   

[petkn]

TonyK

Glad you knew what I meant, however I must say I didn't allow my son to open the oven to burn himself the door was firmly shut and he touched the glass panel on the outside. 

My analogy was to keep the door shut don't open the door, opening the door may give you a third degree burn and nobody wants that.

Also to fellow readers please understand I allowed my son to do this under my supervision so I could soothe him straight away, just felt it was better this way as I couldn't possibly stand in the kitchen constantly supervising him.

Maybe not the best parenting skills but he has learned from his mistakes that's how we all learn.

I'm a single parent and my son has always kept me grounded but I will share this amazing quote from him about 5 months ago.

When I went to see the doctor she constantly kept telling me that I had dodged a bullet so 1 night knowing my son has the odd bullet lying around (fake by the way I live in the uk not allowed real ones) I asked if I could borrow it an old trick touch it when your mind is wandering. He asked me why so I told him what the doctor said. I then stated I will teach you everything I know so you don't make the same mistakes I have. His answer brought tears to my eyes. He said " but daddy you haven't made a mistake" I asked why. Because daddy you are the nicest and greatest man I know you will do anything for anybody and always be there when people need you most she has made the mistake not you... .  "

Not bad for 11 year old. He is obviously slightly biased too 

Take care TonyK I wish you well on your journey.

[Suzn]

Chess is a game of integrity Tony. All the moves are visible to both players. And if indeed one is a master of the game, and he sees he can "win", he offers a handshake and a draw... and walks away. 

This isn't a game. I'm hoping you are considering possibilities for unforeseen events. Things happen Tony, things we have to live with later down the road.

It would be understandable if you still love her and want to work things out. Is this love Tony? This "plan" of yours?