Court Date Tuesday Next Week

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Just wanted some opinions on a few things.

My ex filed a bogus RO a few weeks ago, in it she named my son (8) as one to be protected, as well as, herself.  My lawyer has a rebuttal to everyone of her concerns mentioned and I believe we have a solid case.

I just wanted to know how I should act, dress, and behave when I'm in there.

If anyone needs more information please PM me, as it's very close and don't want my info over the internet.

[arn131arn]

Just wanted some opinions on a few things.

My ex filed a bogus RO a few weeks ago, in it she named my son (8) as one to be protected, as well as, herself.  My lawyer has a rebuttal to everyone of her concerns mentioned and I believe we have a solid case.

I just wanted to know how I should act, dress, and behave when I'm in there.

If anyone needs more information please PM me, as it's very close and don't want my info over the internet.

[ForeverDad]

Was this in domestic or family court or elsewhere such as civil or common pleas court?  If not in family court and you have a parenting order, then part of the defense could be that the other court shouldn't tread on family court's toes.

Often the claim is actually about some alleged ADULT behavior.  At most that should only protect her unless it is also a PARENTING behavior such as child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  It needs to be clearly identified for what it is - most likely - as an attempt to block your parenting and retaliate and punish you for leaving her.

However, judges are often unwilling to turn away a woman, no judge wants to be on the front page if denied protection and she comes to hard.  Sometimes all it takes is an undefined claim of "fearfulness".  If your lawyer can't get the case dismissed, then protect yourself as best you can with terms that don't harm or weaken your ability to work or to parent.  First try to get your children removed from the case.  Then make sure you never admit to any level of guilt (or it will come back to haunt you) nor let the court default to a guilty finding.  You have a right to keep silent, many dig a deeper hole for themselves by trying to explain themselves, so listen to your lawyer's advice and instruction on how to phrase the issues and situations.  Limit it as much as possible, short length, maybe just a "both parents will keep their distance from the other".  Maybe be proactive, tell the judge that if she need protection from you then you need protection from her as well.  Try to get the same level of protection for yourself against the ex.

My lawyer warned me that when I sought protection that I had to avoid saying that sometimes I wasn't fearful around my ex.  He said then my ex's lawyer could turn to the judge and try to convince the judge, "Mr Target just said he wasn't fearful all the time.  Since he's inconsistent, he can be both fearful and not fearful, dismiss the case."

[Matt]

Yeah, following on to what FD says, it seems to me there are two issues... .

First, is there any evidence they can present, which supports their claim that she has a reason to be afraid of you, for herself or for your S8?

I think it is important for you to establish very clearly that they are not offering any evidence, or if they put forward some evidence, make sure you have the opportunity to respond to it - say if it's not real or if there is some explanation.

Most likely they will not have any evidence, and if that's the case, make sure it is very clear to the judge that they are putting forward no evidence and you deny what they are saying.  "Your Honor, Mrs. Arn has offered no evidence to support any of her accusations, and every accusation she has made is false.  She stated that I did X - that is false - I have never done X.  She stated that I did Y - that is false - I never did Y.  Etc."

But that's the easy part - facts.

The other part, as FD emphasizes, is that ROs are often issued, not on the basis of evidence as to what happened, but on the basis of her stated fear.  If she says, "I am afraid of Mr. Arn!", and if she is convincing, it's very likely she will get the RO.

I can suggest one way to deal with that:  Talk in advance with your lawyer, and have him ask the court to issue an order that applies equally to both of you.  You can say, "Just as Mrs. Arn claims to be afraid of me - based on nothing at all - I am afraid of her too, because she is showing her hostility here in court today.  She might attack me or make more false accusations.  I have the right to be protected from her just as she has a right to be protected from someone who might attack her or make false accusations."  If it looks like the RO might be granted, have your lawyer ask that it go both ways - both of you ordered to stay away from each others' homes and workplaces.

That way there is no presumption of who is at fault, which could hurt you later.

Also, make sure your lawyer is prepared to fight hard to make sure the RO does not apply to S8.  S8 has the right to access to both parents.  Be prepared with very strong arguments as to why S8 benefits from his time with you - what you do for him as a parent - and argue that your ex is using this RO as a way to gain advantage in the custody case.

Above all, make sure your lawyer is very well prepared for all of these possibilities.  Many of our members here get bad results, not because of the facts in the case, but because their lawyers aren't prepared for the hearing.  Have a meeting a week before the hearing - or as soon as you can, even if it's the day before the hearing - and ask your lawyer how she will handle things.  If you aren't 100% comfortable that she is prepared, tell her to file a motion to delay the hearing so you can get a better lawyer.

If that doesn't work, start the hearing by saying, "Your Honor, before we proceed to the subject of this hearing, I need to ask for a delay so I can get adequate representation."  You have the right to representation you feel good about - don't back down - don't worry about offending your lawyer - focus on the judge and make it clear that you are not prepared for this hearing because your lawyer has not done her work properly and is not prepared.  The judge will probably have to grant you the delay - I'm not a lawyer but I think if the judge doesn't do that, you could later get the results of the hearing overturned on that basis.

Just make sure you do not go into this hearing unprepared!

The other stuff you ask about is pretty easy.  Where I live, it's fine to wear "business casual" clothes.  A jacket and tie might be best, or some other nice clothes - preferably not jeans and a t-shirt.  Make sure everything is clean and has no holes in it, or anything on it that the judge might not like (like a Seahawks shirt if you live in Colorado).

Get there early and ask your lawyer to meet you at least 30 minutes before you're supposed to be there.  Find out in advance about parking - sometimes that causes problems.  Don't bring much with you - you may have to go through a metal detector - maybe a notebook and a pen to take notes.  Turn your phone off before going into the courtroom.

You might have to wait while other cases are handled, or just wait in the courtroom for the judge to show up (or she might meet with you in a conference room).  You can read but don't talk loudly, or eat or drink anything.  Stand up when the judge comes in.  Listen carefully to what she says.  Ignore the other party - your ex - except to say "Good morning."  Focus on the judge and on working well with your attorney.

If at any point anyone - your own attorney, the other attorney, your ex, or even the judge - says anything which is harmful to your case and which isn't true, or is twisted in some way, write it down, as close to word-for-word as you can.  Circle it and write "NOT TRUE" by it, and show that to your attorney.  When it's your turn to talk - or your lawyer's turn - make sure you state very clearly what was said and that it is not true - "A few minutes ago Mrs. Arn stated that I did X."  Refer to your notes and quote her as accurately as you can.  "That is not true - I have never done X."  Make it absolutely clear that you are stating that you did not do what she said you did.  "I have never done X and Mrs. Arn has provided no evidence to support her accusation."

If you are asked a question, make sure you heard it clearly and understood it before answering, and make sure you answer what was asked.  If you aren't sure, ask for it to repeated or clarified.  "I'm sorry but I didn't understand the question.  Can you explain it to me please?" or "I didn't hear the question - can you repeat it please?"  Avoid the temptation to go into detail unless it is critical - just answer what was asked.

If a question sounds unfair to you, take it very slowly - it probably sounds unfair because it contains something unfair inside it.  "Mr. Arn, do you still beat your wife?"  Take it apart and find the assumption inside the question, and if the assumption isn't true, address it directly:  "Your question assumes that I have ever beat my wife, but that isn't true.  I have never physically harmed Mrs. Arn or anyone else, or attempted to hurt her."

If you are struggling for some reason - sometimes we just get very nervous or confused - look at your attorney and say nothing.  Work this out with her in advance so she knows what that means - she is to interrupt and help in some way.  The judge might not like that but it will buy you a little time to think.  And judges are used to people who haven't been in court before, so she will probably understand that you just need a minute, and will help you out or let your lawyer help you out.

[ForeverDad]

Although it wasn't overtly stated in my original case, when my ex had been released she went over domestic/family court and sought her own protection order against me, it was ex parte, I wasn't there.  She included our son, something municipal court couldn't or wouldn't do for me.  She made some very mild and lame claims, she hadn't learned yet to go for the throat.  So family court automatically called in CPS for an opinion.  I got a phone call from a CPS investigator while I was on my way to work, almost there and had to pull over for the interview.  So when I appeared for the hearing. the CPS investigator was there and when asked he rose and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  I felt frustrated, I wanted to ask, "But what about her?"  But the case was against me, not her, so a judge asking him or him commenting on her could have been outside the scope of the matter at hand.

So what I'm saying is that the court may be unwilling to keep your child "protected" from you without input from CPS.  If court doesn't involve CPS or children's services, should you?  Has she ever called CPS?

[PinkieV]

Definitely find an attorney that inspires your full confidence. My DH spent some time researching, even though time was of the essence and I was pushing him to get on with it. He's very methodical and he decided on the attorney who he felt most comfortable with, even though the attorney had less experience. But let me tell you, he has been spot on and we've been successful every step of the way.

Our attorney was visibly relieved when we met him the morning of our hearing. We live out of state and he said you just never know, even when someone seems together by phone or email. We were both dressed business casual, very quiet and respectful, and appeared normal I guess. No matter how open people are, first impressions are still vitally important.

[arn131arn]

Borderline Personality Disorder, your honor.

My court date was today for my RO filed by my exBPD.  The case was actually continued until March 7th.

My ex has been refusing visitation with my son, alienating him for the last 5 months, named my son in the RO for protection, and my attorney had a pretrial conference with the judge where she court ordered every other weekend for right now along with 3 nights a week for telephone or Skype conversations.

I admit, after 5 hard months of not being able to see him, this was a small victory for me in this case.

I was wondering, my ex has emesched my son, I believe he has been a victim of covert incest (up until she left in Sept, she was still showering with him.  He turned 8 in January.)  She slept with him every night for years, and she has sent him to 7 different schools in 8 years.  I believe with all my heart that she is BPD; but she has never been diagnosed.

Everyone I know, including my attorney, said this judge is as fair as they come, and my ex's RO case is weak and filled with holes. I believe the judge saw a little of that today and she granted me visitation.  She is all about the children when it comes to making her decisions.  Yet, how can I bring up belief that my ex has borderline personality disorder, the showering, sleeping, infantilizing him?  How can I do this?  And will it take a court ordered psyche evaluation?

Looks like I will be here for a while... . so, hope to get to know some of you like I did on the leaving board.

Arn

[ForeverDad]

What does a psyche eval mean in your area?  Is it just testing or is it like custody evaluations where the evaluator also considers many factors, both psych tests as well as history and observations?  Just testing is insufficient to determine how your son is affected and impacted.

Also, the fact that you now have alternate weekends without supervision shows that you're not seen as a neglect, abuse or endangerment risk.  Basically, the judge just just shifted you to a typical minority dad schedule.  Mother's claims have just been cut down to size.  She may still be allowed to have some protection for herself but don't ever, not even the least bit, admit or sign off on having any guilt or plea deal.  Her lawyer will push for you to admit to something bad but maintain your innocence, they can never take that away from you.  Not good enough considering mother's issues, but it's probably what the judge sees as a minimum solution for now.  The challenge will be to get more time than the standard minimum.

Unless this is family court, you probably won't get more than that at this early stage, but try anyway.  You don't want to   You do need to request a custody evaluation, it's the only way to get both parents assessed comprehensively, a few psych tests aren't quite enough.

My story, I didn't have any contact at all with my 4 year old son for over 3 months in between orders, not even phone calls.  And when I finally had my day in court the magistrate confirmed from my ex that she had blocked parenting for 3 months and he said, "I'll fix that, I'll reinstate the prior order and dad gets alternate weekends and an alternate Thursday evening again."  No penalty.  No make up time.  Not even an immediate reunion, it was to start later that week on a Friday evening until ex asked to delay it by over a day and the magistrate allowed it.  I was shocked and aghast.  What about my son getting to see me?  It felt like no one cared that much for him, like it was no big deal, just a little more delay, who will notice?

My ex stopped nursing when son was about 14 months old but she continued having son hold her breasts whenever she was stressed, though she claimed she was comforting him.  She did it the week we separated, in the hours after we had a police visit in response to my call to 911.  He was over 3.5 years old then, I don't know what happened in the years since.  No one seemed concerned about it.

[arn131arn]

What does a psyche eval mean in your area?  Is it just testing or is it like custody evaluations where the evaluator also considers many factors, both psych tests as well as history and observations?  Just testing is insufficient to determine how your son is affected and impacted.

Also, the fact that you now have alternate weekends without supervision shows that you're not seen as a neglect, abuse or endangerment risk.  Basically, the judge just just shifted you to a typical minority dad schedule.  Mother's claims have just been cut down to size.  She may still be allowed to have some protection for herself but don't ever, not even the least bit, admit or sign off on having any guilt or plea deal.  Her lawyer will push for you to admit to something bad but maintain your innocence, they can never take that away from you.  Not good enough considering mother's issues, but it's probably what the judge sees as a minimum solution for now.  The challenge will be to get more time than the standard minimum.

Unless this is family court, you probably won't get more than that at this early stage, but try anyway.  You don't want to   You do need to request a custody evaluation, it's the only way to get both parents assessed comprehensively, a few psych tests aren't quite enough.

My story, I didn't have any contact at all with my 4 year old son for over 3 months in between orders, not even phone calls.  And when I finally had my day in court the magistrate confirmed from my ex that she had blocked parenting for 3 months and he said, "I'll fix that, I'll reinstate the prior order and dad gets alternate weekends and an alternate Thursday evening again."  No penalty.  No make up time.  Not even an immediate reunion, it was to start later that week on a Friday evening until ex asked to delay it by over a day and the magistrate allowed it.  I was shocked and aghast.  What about my son getting to see me?  It felt like no one cared that much for him, like it was no big deal, just a little more delay, who will notice?

My ex stopped nursing when son was about 14 months old but she continued having son hold her breasts whenever she was stressed, though she claimed she was comforting him.  She did it the week we separated, in the hours after we had a police visit in response to my call to 911.  He was over 3.5 years old then, I don't know what happened in the years since.  No one seemed concerned about it.

Thanks, Dad. I know my exBPD is furious right now.  They said this judge is very fair and wants only the best for the kids.  I don't think the determination about my son being a threat by me has been resolved, I think that will take place the next time in court.  I really really want to move on with my life, and I need to begin detaching from her, yet, I know this in and out of court thing will be for the rest of my son's life, at least until he's 18 years old. 

[ForeverDad]

I don't think the determination about my son being a threat by me has been resolved, I think that will take place the next time in court.

I would be inclined to mildly disagree.  If you were seen as a potential problem, then the judge would have been more cautious and ordered some level of supervised visitation.  That didn't happen so the judge didn't see any immediate risks.  Period.  IMHO  So it's possible you may get the judge to look deep enough to see that mother has some serious issues, not just with you but with her relationship with son too.  Can you get that mentioned on the record?  The problem is that this is her allegations against you.  Officially the court is not scrutinizing her, or at least don't count on it.  Unless you file your own paperwork about her, or you report this to CPS (I don't know if it is actionable) then she may be presumed to be an okay parent for now.

Not to mention you get every weekend, quite unusual.  Judges always order alternate weekends.  If you work during the week, maybe this was the judge's way for you to have as much time as possible for now?  However, it's quite likely that getting every weekend won't last forever, judges always want the parents to have at least some opportunities for weekend activities and trips.  Hmm, if the judge later wants her to have some weekends maybe you can try to get every first, second and fourth weekend for you and she could get every third and occasional fifth weekend?  Think outside the box.  Stay on your toes, alert for every little bit of preference you can get and keep.

[arn131arn]

I don't think the determination about my son being a threat by me has been resolved, I think that will take place the next time in court.

I would be inclined to mildly disagree.  If you were seen as a potential problem, then the judge would have been more cautious and ordered some level of supervised visitation.  That didn't happen so the judge didn't see any immediate risks.  Period.  IMHO  So it's possible you may get the judge to look deep enough to see that mother has some serious issues, not just with you but with her relationship with son too.  Can you get that mentioned on the record?  The problem is that this is her allegations against you.  Officially the court is not scrutinizing her, or at least don't count on it.  Unless you file your own paperwork about her, or you report this to CPS (I don't know if it is actionable) then she may be presumed to be an okay parent for now.

Not to mention you get every weekend, quite unusual.  Judges always order alternate weekends.  If you work during the week, maybe this was the judge's way for you to have as much time as possible for now?  However, it's quite likely that getting every weekend won't last forever, judges always want the parents to have at least some opportunities for weekend activities and trips.  Hmm, if the judge later wants her to have some weekends maybe you can try to get every first, second and fourth weekend for you and she could get every third and occasional fifth weekend?  Think outside the box.  Stay on your toes, alert for every little bit of preference you can get and keep.

The judge granted me every weekend for now until the next court date on March 7th. She knew I had not seen my son in 5 months and probably didn't like hearing about it very much... . so she awarded me every weekend until the new court date.

[Skip]

Arn,

What does her filing say is the reason for the RO?

Skip

Yet, how can I bring up belief that my ex has borderline personality disorder, the showering, sleeping, infantilizing him?  How can I do this?  And will it take a court ordered psyche evaluation?

Let me ask the more pointed question - how much visitation do you want?  Are you wanting him to live with you during the week and for her to have secondary visitation?  Can you manage that time wise and expense?  Are you wanting custody?

[Matt]

I filed a motion for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered objective psych evals to both parents.  He used the MMPI-2 (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Index) which allowed him to diagnose my wife with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD.

(My results weren't perfect - I'm told that almost nobody's are - no disorders but a high risk for addiction.  It was critical for me to accept that and consult with the psychologist about how I should handle that, and follow his recommendation.)

Getting this information on the table - whatever the MMPI or another objective instrument shows - may be critical to moving this from "Who is telling the truth about the other?" to "One more-or-less healthy parent and one with big problems."  That's what you need - objective information in front of the court so the judge can fit it together with the other information, like sleeping with the child, showers, etc. - matching up the behaviors with the diagnosis so it will be clear what the problem is.

[ForeverDad]

So far as I know, no specific mention was ever made of any Personality Disorder in our custody evaluation report.  It was very well written and identified the poor behaviors and attitudes - tangential thinking and inability to share 'her' child - but still didn't even mention or hint at a diagnosis.  My court, as with many other courts, usually just stuck with the behaviors, the parenting behaviors more than the adult behaviors, so that's usually the best way for us to proceed, focus on the poor behaviors that would get the court's attention and response.

That said, showering and sleeping with your child is likely to be 'concerning'.  How concerned the court will be is hard to say, but I wouldn't keep silent about it.  Does your local children's services or CPS have a position on that?  It may happen in other cultures or where water and bedding was scarce, but with son getting older, that should have stopped before now.  That's part of learning his own personal boundaries.  I recall one session where his therapist related to me her concern that son had responded to a review question "Who's private parts can you touch?" with "My mother's."  He should have answered "Mine."

And as our mediator said to my soon to be ex-spouse when she said she was the Entitled Mother in her culture, "We're not in (your island culture where you spent half your childhood), we're here in this country."  (Funny story... . as possessive a mother as ex was, her own brothers were raised by her father, it was only she and her sister who grew up with her mother and sexually abusive stepfather. If we would have followed her cultural claims and history, then I as Father should have raised our son.)

[Matt]

Focus mostly on behaviors, or on a diagnosis... . ?

Usually the answer is behaviors, because they are observable, and judges probably don't want to get into a big abstract argument about what a particular diagnosis means.  Can someone who has BPD be a good parent?

I think the strongest case would be both behaviors and diagnosis.  Without documenting the behaviors - what the parent is doing that is having a bad impact on the child - it's all theoretical.  But putting them both together allows you to introduce evidence like studies that shows kids raised by someone with BPD are harmed long-term - not just specific things that happen right now and impact the child, but long-term impact from being raised by someone whose thinking is twisted.

The footnotes in "Understanding The Borderline Mother" include a ton of solid research that proves beyond any doubt that a child raised by someone who has BPD - and who isn't getting the right treatment - is at much higher risk, long term, for substance abuse, depression, etc. - pretty much everything we don't want for our kids.  Getting some of that information in front of the court, along with evidence that the parent's behavior is hurting the child right now, should make a very strong case.

[Matt]

Another thought for you - just a brainstorm... .

The RO case was continued til March 7th.  I wonder if there is a way for your lawyer to have it delayed a little more - maybe just a couple more weeks, or even longer?

The reason I ask is, you've been given a good amount of time with your son, and that should go well.  The longer you continue to see him, unsupervised, and both you and your son say that's going well - and everything else is going well too - the more likely the judge will see it as fine and not a risk for the child.

Meanwhile, more time doing everything else you need to do, and coming to court and dealing with the judge in a very professional manner - it will all work on your behalf - you'll be seen as an OK person who isn't a threat to anybody.

Usually we want these things over with as soon as possible - we want a positive outcome as soon as we can get it.  But sometimes delay might be in your interest.  (And lawyers are very good at delaying things.)

[Skip]

Interesting idea.