Denial

[Depression = 72% of members]

I remember being in therapy years ago. My therapist told me something that I really didn't like. I thought she was a b1tch. I hated her. It's only today (!) that I now realize what she was getting at.

I feel that denial is a big issue for me. It took me years to realize what that therapist meant. I'm not beating myself up about it or anything like that. I genuinely didn't understand and I didn't feel like she properly explained things to me. I was in a fog of denial and she was trying to rush me through it all... trying to rush me through 100 steps at once when I needed to just take one step... I needed to be guided very slowly through it all because it was just a big mess. She was an outsider so obviously, she had perspective on the issue. She could look at my situation and instantly understand what was going on.

I guess this is just reminding me that I need to be gentle with other people... that it's easier for an outsider to point out your mistakes whereas the person themselves is in a sludge of denial that it takes them a long time to realize what the hell is going on. Of course change needs to happen but at the start... it's like you're just so enmeshed... dealing with all this manipulation... lies etc that you can't even think straight... that your head is just pounding the whole time... that you're self-medicating to block out the emotional pain... that you don't even know why you're so upset. The pain is all repressed... all denied... blocked... deeply buried. You have these reactions and don't even know what's wrong with you-why you can't just "snap out of it". That's the way I was back then. I'm only now realizing how hard that was!

I feel that I used a lot of repression and intellectualization in the past... that I opted for obsessive thinking/ruminating over actually feeling anything... denying my emotions. I was basically told that my emotions weren't acceptable. Not literally but that was the implied message. Basically-just shut up and go along with things. When I didn't go along with things, I was treated as a problem and called "stubborn" and that shamed me. I look back and realize "ok, yes, I was willful at times (not ALL the time either!) but it was only because I didn't want to deny things. I wanted the problems to be addressed." I didn't like that culture of denying things... of pretending they weren't there. My attitude was very much: there's a problem here and we need to deal with it. I was only a child at the time though so I didn't have the proper skills to articulate this in an appropriate way so I tended to just lose my temper and thus wasn't taken seriously. But at the root of it, I had a good point... I had good intentions/motives. I just didn't have the skills to go about it the right way.

I think that being a people pleaser/chameleon was, in some ways, a denial of my identity... of who I was... that I could just change my likes/dislikes on a dime to suit my environment . I don't think I was really given the tools to form a secure sense of self. I felt so wishy-washy about everything. I didn't really know what I wanted because I thought "well things might change tomorrow". There was always that sense of instability... sort of the calm before the storm really... .that things were fine now but would they stay fine? I felt this ambivalence about relationships-I wanted to be connected to other people but then on the other hand, I felt safer by myself... this fear of intimacy really, I guess.

I also had this tremendous sense of anxiety growing up but I didn't know why. I denied those feelings of anxiety... of fear. I thought that I was afraid of nothing. It was only after I went to therapy that I realized that I was afraid of everything!

There's times when I don't deal with problems straight away and sure, you could call that avoidance but it really boils down to denial... pretending the problem isn't there. I noticed that someone else posted about procrastination in the taking personal inventory section before too. I've struggled with procrastination in the past. I find practical tools like to do lists etc helpful but I'm realizing that it's actually a symptom of a bigger issue..well at least for me it is anyways... I can't speak for everyone, just myself. I feel that I procrastinated because I was in denial ultimately... that it's tempting to live in fantasy land/have all this magical thinking that things are going to be ok even when they're not.

I had feelings of emptiness growing up and I wonder now whether it's because I wasn't getting along with people. I wasn't getting that sense of connection I craved. I didn't feel understood and that made me feel weird/different/abnormal. Even now when I can connect with people, I still feel a sense of emptiness but it's really an emptiness that's originating from the past... from the times that I didn't connect with people. I feel that I have better communication skills now so interpersonal situations are easy for me. I don't feel misunderstood anymore. But I guess there's a part of me that feels sorry for that girl years ago who WAS misunderstood... who was castigated. It's like there's a scar/wound there that makes me wary of people even yet.

I remember my BPD ex saying that he got confused about the past and present-that he'd feel that people were doing things that they really weren't doing... that it was all coming from the past. I guess I wonder whether I do that at times too (although not to the same extent as him). I wonder whether that emptiness is coming from the past or the present... it's hard to tell. It's like when I'm around someone cold or dismissive, THAT reminds me of the past... that is a trigger for me and makes me feel a sense of neediness/yearning... almost like "please understand me... please love me", that kind of thing. It doesn't make any logical sense but emotionally, it makes a lot of sense.

I forgot to add this earlier-I learned to deny my own needs... that other peoples' needs were more important than mine! That's yet another thing!

I feel like there was a lot of denial in my FOO (Family of Origin) growing up. The ethos was: don't rock the boat. And I picked that up-I tuned out... turned to self-medicating... eating disorder, alcohol... anything to "tune out" what was REALLY going on! In other words, deny it.

I wonder whether other people here have experienced this-whether they can relate. I'd like to hear other people's observations too.

[musicfan42]

I remember being in therapy years ago. My therapist told me something that I really didn't like. I thought she was a b1tch. I hated her. It's only today (!) that I now realize what she was getting at.

I feel that denial is a big issue for me. It took me years to realize what that therapist meant. I'm not beating myself up about it or anything like that. I genuinely didn't understand and I didn't feel like she properly explained things to me. I was in a fog of denial and she was trying to rush me through it all... trying to rush me through 100 steps at once when I needed to just take one step... I needed to be guided very slowly through it all because it was just a big mess. She was an outsider so obviously, she had perspective on the issue. She could look at my situation and instantly understand what was going on.

I guess this is just reminding me that I need to be gentle with other people... that it's easier for an outsider to point out your mistakes whereas the person themselves is in a sludge of denial that it takes them a long time to realize what the hell is going on. Of course change needs to happen but at the start... it's like you're just so enmeshed... dealing with all this manipulation... lies etc that you can't even think straight... that your head is just pounding the whole time... that you're self-medicating to block out the emotional pain... that you don't even know why you're so upset. The pain is all repressed... all denied... blocked... deeply buried. You have these reactions and don't even know what's wrong with you-why you can't just "snap out of it". That's the way I was back then. I'm only now realizing how hard that was!

I feel that I used a lot of repression and intellectualization in the past... that I opted for obsessive thinking/ruminating over actually feeling anything... denying my emotions. I was basically told that my emotions weren't acceptable. Not literally but that was the implied message. Basically-just shut up and go along with things. When I didn't go along with things, I was treated as a problem and called "stubborn" and that shamed me. I look back and realize "ok, yes, I was willful at times (not ALL the time either!) but it was only because I didn't want to deny things. I wanted the problems to be addressed." I didn't like that culture of denying things... of pretending they weren't there. My attitude was very much: there's a problem here and we need to deal with it. I was only a child at the time though so I didn't have the proper skills to articulate this in an appropriate way so I tended to just lose my temper and thus wasn't taken seriously. But at the root of it, I had a good point... I had good intentions/motives. I just didn't have the skills to go about it the right way.

I think that being a people pleaser/chameleon was, in some ways, a denial of my identity... of who I was... that I could just change my likes/dislikes on a dime to suit my environment . I don't think I was really given the tools to form a secure sense of self. I felt so wishy-washy about everything. I didn't really know what I wanted because I thought "well things might change tomorrow". There was always that sense of instability... sort of the calm before the storm really... .that things were fine now but would they stay fine? I felt this ambivalence about relationships-I wanted to be connected to other people but then on the other hand, I felt safer by myself... this fear of intimacy really, I guess.

I also had this tremendous sense of anxiety growing up but I didn't know why. I denied those feelings of anxiety... of fear. I thought that I was afraid of nothing. It was only after I went to therapy that I realized that I was afraid of everything!

There's times when I don't deal with problems straight away and sure, you could call that avoidance but it really boils down to denial... pretending the problem isn't there. I noticed that someone else posted about procrastination in the taking personal inventory section before too. I've struggled with procrastination in the past. I find practical tools like to do lists etc helpful but I'm realizing that it's actually a symptom of a bigger issue..well at least for me it is anyways... I can't speak for everyone, just myself. I feel that I procrastinated because I was in denial ultimately... that it's tempting to live in fantasy land/have all this magical thinking that things are going to be ok even when they're not.

I had feelings of emptiness growing up and I wonder now whether it's because I wasn't getting along with people. I wasn't getting that sense of connection I craved. I didn't feel understood and that made me feel weird/different/abnormal. Even now when I can connect with people, I still feel a sense of emptiness but it's really an emptiness that's originating from the past... from the times that I didn't connect with people. I feel that I have better communication skills now so interpersonal situations are easy for me. I don't feel misunderstood anymore. But I guess there's a part of me that feels sorry for that girl years ago who WAS misunderstood... who was castigated. It's like there's a scar/wound there that makes me wary of people even yet.

I remember my BPD ex saying that he got confused about the past and present-that he'd feel that people were doing things that they really weren't doing... that it was all coming from the past. I guess I wonder whether I do that at times too (although not to the same extent as him). I wonder whether that emptiness is coming from the past or the present... it's hard to tell. It's like when I'm around someone cold or dismissive, THAT reminds me of the past... that is a trigger for me and makes me feel a sense of neediness/yearning... almost like "please understand me... please love me", that kind of thing. It doesn't make any logical sense but emotionally, it makes a lot of sense.

I forgot to add this earlier-I learned to deny my own needs... that other peoples' needs were more important than mine! That's yet another thing!

I feel like there was a lot of denial in my FOO (Family of Origin) growing up. The ethos was: don't rock the boat. And I picked that up-I tuned out... turned to self-medicating... eating disorder, alcohol... anything to "tune out" what was REALLY going on! In other words, deny it.

I wonder whether other people here have experienced this-whether they can relate. I'd like to hear other people's observations too.

[musicfan42]

I don't know if I can post outside links here or not but I'm going to give it a try. I was reading this article on scapegoats: www.psychologytoday.com/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/201101/the-scapegoat-identity

I realized that I could relate to it. I was a sensitive, empathetic child. I took on the collective family guilt... all their "sins"... thinking that I was a "bad" person so I ended up helping other people to prove that I wasn't... to prove that I was a good person.

The article said something else that I liked too-that empathy is a gift but that I was using it for the wrong purpose. Essentially carrying everyone else's loads instead of validating... .asking them questions... letting them know that I understood how they felt.

[Rose Tiger]

I can relate to everything you've posted.  It took me a long loonnnnng time to take the focus off others and to start focusing on me.  I thought I was ok but it was everyone else that had problems.  I tried so hard to make everyone else happy so I could be ok and it failed over and over again.  I was the scapegoat in my family, never encouraged but belittled and criticized constantly.  I had no one to back me up or protect me, leading to severe anxiety issues.

It's like in this forum, we are learning how to be an adult, we are learning the things we should of been taught in childhood on how to be a mature well adjusted grown up.  Learning how to take better care of ourselves, being more accepting of who we are, learning we don't have to be victims and we do have some control over our lives.

[musicfan42]

Thanks Rose Tiger I'm experiencing a lot of emotions these past few days.

[Rose Tiger]

Sounds like you've broken through a wall. 

[fromheeltoheal]

I feel that I used a lot of repression and intellectualization in the past... that I opted for obsessive thinking/ruminating over actually feeling anything... denying my emotions. I was basically told that my emotions weren't acceptable. Not literally but that was the implied message. Basically-just shut up and go along with things.

I think that being a people pleaser/chameleon was, in some ways, a denial of my identity... of who I was... that I could just change my likes/dislikes on a dime to suit my environment .

I feel that I have better communication skills now so interpersonal situations are easy for me. I don't feel misunderstood anymore. But I guess there's a part of me that feels sorry for that girl years ago who WAS misunderstood... who was castigated. It's like there's a scar/wound there that makes me wary of people even yet.

I forgot to add this earlier-I learned to deny my own needs... that other peoples' needs were more important than mine! That's yet another thing!

I could have written this post music, funny how many similarities there are among those of us borderlines have found attractive.

I too spent decades thinking my way instead of feeling it, and got very, very good with the justifications and the brain chatter when my gut was telling something I didn't want to accept.

And then we get here, chastise the evil borderline for a while, eventually get off it, come out of the FOG and start looking at our own sht, trace our woes back to FOO issues, set about healing and growing, blah, blah, blah.

There's a time for introspection, analysis, profound insight, and there's a time for OK, get off it, start living again.  But better.  The one valuable thing I got from my borderline ex, and it is extremely valuable, is like Rose says, I've broken through a wall.  The borderline bullsht was so extreme and so painful it forced me to not just break through a wall, but blow the whole fcking thing up.  Finally, after all these decades, I'm feeling, and making it a priority over thinking, and it's about time.  All the alcohol and drugs, the therapy, the personal development, the chaos of trying to find my way and having no clue, and getting no help from people who meant well but didn't understand, after all that it took a serious mental illness to show me the way.  Hey, it takes what it takes, our teachers come in lots of disguises, and better late than never.

The challenge lately is the floodgates have opened.  It seems I've lost the ability to repress, and all the old sht is coming up, which I realize it has to, the only way out is through, but damn!  I've gotten extremely pissed off about things that happened years and years ago, nothing to do with my borderline, unbridled rage, and the more stuff that comes up, the more it seems there is.  It's better than it was a few months ago, I'm feeling a little relief, but I'm not at that place of completely purged yet; I know it's there and I look forward to it, still plugging... .

So anyway, it seems there aren't any mysteries anymore.  I'm clear on what I did and didn't get from my family of origin, I know why I was confused and lost all those years, I know why things went the way they did with my borderline ex.  In a sense that's the good news; the one thing I needed to know but was missing all those years was feel don't think, let fly with who I really am, live all the way.  And of course the other piece is notice what I'm getting from people when I do that; instead of being the chameleon who spent decades trying to figure out who I needed to be to 'fit in' with certain people, let fly with who I am and remove the unsupportive people and the ones I don't connect with.  Profound, and 180 degrees from what I'd been doing.  I haven't built the life of my dreams yet, but I finally know what it looks like, so off we go to live it.  Thanks borderline.

[froggy]

Wow... .it's like you all have lived in my head.

I've only just recently realized how bad the self hate is... how very little I think of myself.

I was reading an article online about women and self worth. .and it pointed out that to feel worthless is seeing your value as less than dirt... .even dirt has value.

I had been told all my childhood that I was worthless. .taught to ignore my needs... to believe I had no needs... .to not make waves... just do as your told and be quiet.

To put up with abuse because I didn't deserve to be treated well. I am female. .my only purpose is to serve and please.

Thanx uBPD dad for setting me up for my udbph.

My biggest breakthrough has been on here... .reading about the lonely child... .to find out that I fell in love with what he mirrored in me has made the most impact... .maybe I don't hate myself... maybe I do have worth.

These perceived pictures of who I am are not mine... they are not who I am... no one is worth nothing... no one is worthless... these were projected on me so I was easier to abuse... .so I took it all because I deserved it.

I thank my friend of 42 years for pointing that out to me... .for confusing me with love and respect... .for pointing out I'm worth more... .and everyone here for renforcing all that.

It's a big scary job... .but I have to deal with my core issues... deal with my fears and rewrite the script I was given.

[fromheeltoheal]

My biggest breakthrough has been on here... .reading about the lonely child... .to find out that I fell in love with what he mirrored in me has made the most impact... .maybe I don't hate myself... maybe I do have worth.

I thank my friend of 42 years for pointing that out to me... .for confusing me with love and respect... .for pointing out I'm worth more... .and everyone here for renforcing all that.

It's a big scary job... .but I have to deal with my core issues... deal with my fears and rewrite the script I was given.

Yes!   

We are worth what we say we're worth, which can be a catch-22 if we replay the messages disempowering people gave us.  It's about breaking the cycle, which is what my borderline ex did with her abuse, painful enough to inspire me to kick myself in the ass.  And then, as you say, surround ourselves with empowering people as we grow that fledgling self worth.  It's only scary because it's new and different, and what allows me to take the steps is the faith that it will be better, even if it's just starting to feel like it.  Take care of you!

[froggy]

I think that's the hardest part is just admitting I HAVE needs... never mind it's ok to have needs.

I think 33 years of giving has burned me out. I feel like he's an emotional vampire and he's taken all I can give.

The only good thing about that is I've stopped caring if he gets up set or stops taking to me... .I actually laughed at him a few min ago when he asked me how he was going to servive and who would take care of him when I'm gone this weekend... .I laughed and said... .your 56! I think you can take care of yourself .

In a way I should thank him... I may have been a pwBPD myself given my child and where I was headed when I met him... I had a lot of traits... but years of focusing on him brought more of my codependent traits out.

I can see both sides of the coin... part of the reason I'm still here... he's so much more broken than I am but can't see it.

Oi... .it'll be nice to get away for a few days... .my poor daughter gets to step in as head cook and bottle washer.

[musicfan42]

Oh thanks guys I got a lot from all your posts!

I definitely broke through a wall. I was feeling so sad and I just had to get rid of that feeling by writing the initial post. It actually worked. It just got it off my chest and I was like "phew". It felt cathartic.

I have been spending a lot of time in the introspection phase-probably too much. I'm definitely ready to move on. But then there's a part of me that is still so pissed off and angry about certain things. I don't think that pissed off side is going to go really... I just need to accept that it's there. It can come in handy at times anyways .

[musicfan42]

I've had more thoughts on this!

froggy-I can't help thinking about your posts. You're really self-aware and it sounds like you've made a lot of progress. I'm so glad that your friend told you that you are worth more... she sounds like a good friend to have

Have you read up about domestic violence? There's a cycle of violence model that's really helpful. I didn't realize that emotional abuse was considered domestic violence but it is. Male abusers tend to have patriarchal attitudes about women-viewing them as sexual objects or just servants basically... there to gratify their needs/whims.

I think of my BPD ex as a dementor-they're these dark soulless creatures in the Harry Potter book series that go around, sucking peoples' joy out until they're left with nothing but their most painful memories. But yeah, a vampire also works too ... draining the victim of life. In the Harry Potter book series, the wizards are taught how to cast a Patronus charm to repel the dementors. They do this by concentrating on the happiest memory in their lives. I think there's a really powerful message there. I don't have a literal magic wand but I'm doing the next best thing. I feel that I'm casting my own version of a Patronus charm by working on myself... learning about communication skills etc. I know that the Harry Potter books are technically childrens' books but there's some heavy themes in them... a lot about death, loss, having to overcome obstacles in life. I really liked the first Hunger Games film too-that she was going to fight... that she wasn't letting all the injustice get her down.

I was angry when I was younger and then somehow switched to codependent traits. It's a relief to hear someone else having that exact same experience... like "oh ok, that's normal!"

I did the schema test on the forum here ages ago. What is this lonely child schema? I keep hearing about it here-that people had a lonely child schema and that's why they were attracted to their pwBPD. I kind of understand the gist of it however I'd like to hear more about it.

It's great that you're taking some time out for yourself this weekend-that you're putting yourself first I feel like it's really important to carve out some "me-time". Sometimes, I'll do this by pampering myself... having a nice bath/shower or else reading a book etc... .just something that's for me... not for anyone else. I was actually told a really good slogan ages ago: "put the focus on yourself"... .as in, focus on my own needs... take care of myself... that other people were perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and would be fine!


Rose Tiger-your posts were short and sweet however I was really grateful for them because I thought "Omg is no one going to reply to my thread?" I needed some validation!


fromheeltoheal-I remember when the floodgates opened for me too. It was so overwhelming, like "wow! where did all these emotions come from?" but it was just years of built up stuff. It does get better though.

I tried a lot of different things out to help me too... I could actually use your list-alcohol, drugs, therapy etc although I didn't really dabble too much in drugs. I tried cannabis a handful of times and that was it so there's a part of me that thinks "that doesn't count!" ha. There's a part of me that minimizes it. But yeah, I definitely think it's trial and error... that I had to try all this stuff and see what worked... it's sort of like throwing mud on a wall and hoping that some of it sticks! It's frustrating... I've had to be really persistent but it is what it is.

I feel like healing really involves "making waves" as froggy so aptly puts it... breaking out of that silence... talking about my issues... being honest and saying "look this is what's going on for me." That was easy for me to do   I had to work on openness and willingness though... .being open to other peoples' advice and being willing to try out new things... those things took longer to get the hang of. I basically thought that I knew it all-that I had all the answers and that belief system was limiting me.

[fromheeltoheal]

fromheeltoheal-I remember when the floodgates opened for me too. It was so overwhelming, like "wow! where did all these emotions come from?" but it was just years of built up stuff. It does get better though.

I tried a lot of different things out to help me too... I could actually use your list-alcohol, drugs, therapy etc although I didn't really dabble too much in drugs. I tried cannabis a handful of times and that was it so there's a part of me that thinks "that doesn't count!" ha. There's a part of me that minimizes it. But yeah, I definitely think it's trial and error... that I had to try all this stuff and see what worked... it's sort of like throwing mud on a wall and hoping that some of it sticks! It's frustrating... I've had to be really persistent but it is what it is.

I feel like healing really involves "making waves" as froggy so aptly puts it... breaking out of that silence... talking about my issues... being honest and saying "look this is what's going on for me." That was easy for me to do   I had to work on openness and willingness though... .being open to other peoples' advice and being willing to try out new things... those things took longer to get the hang of. I basically thought that I knew it all-that I had all the answers and that belief system was limiting me.

Thanks music, always good to get validation that I'm on the right path.  Pot a couple of times pales in comparison to the intoxicants I ingested, so yeah, I'm good with 'that doesn't count.'

I'd say I started to wake up and open up about what matters to me less than a year ago, after the relationship ended, and it's still all new to me.  You guys are right, it is about 'making waves', and I've found that some relationships I have with people need to end when what's really going on for me is expressed.  That's OK, it's all about upgrade right now, out with the disempowering and in with the empowering.

So you speak in past tense about breaking through that wall.  I'm curious, when did you decide to start letting fly with who you are, how long ago?  It's good to hear that it gets better, it still feels like a fight to me.  Interesting that you say openness to other people's input and willingness to listen to it are your current challenges; I've got the opposite challenge, not letting folks who are too willing to offer unsolicited advice get away with it, by reinforcing boundaries.

[musicfan42]

fromheeltoheal- I know you say that it's all new to you but you seem to have your head screwed on and know what you want.

I think that talking is really the key- to feel free to give your opinion. There's really no "wrong" opinions to have... there's no wrong thoughts or feelings. I tend to ramble a lot but at the same time, I feel like I'm entitled to-that all my opinions etc are important. I agree with Brene Brown though that it's good to be emotionally vulnerable with kind people. There's some people who are just ignorant- who won't understand and I don't confide in them. I might talk to them about something light like what was on TV last night but if they're not an empathetic person, then they're not going to give me the compassion and understanding that I want. I try to look for honest people- not "yes men". There's no point having someone tell me that I'm doing everything right when I'm not. If I'm doing something wrong, then I want to be told-I want people to be blunt with me instead of tippy-toeing around me. I like understanding people but at the same time, I don't need the amount of validation that a borderline craves. I have a thicker skin and just want people to call a spade a spade.

I found that people didn't like when I started asserting myself. So a bit of backlash is only natural. People aren't comfortable with change. It's easier for them to keep you in a box. I think that some people can feel threatened/competitive/jealous... .all sorts of things... and can actually try to sabotage your progress through bhity/passive-aggressive comments. I stand up for myself- I don't put up with bhity comments. I think "why should I?" There will be some people that are just genuine and want to support you no matter what- these are really good, kind-hearted people. But basically, be aware that other people are saboteurs and just keep an eye out for them. If it crops up, just stand up for yourself and don't let them stop you from succeeding... .just stick to your guns.

It's not that I'm 100% recovered from this issue. I think that I still struggle with it but it has become easier. It feels more like a habit now really. It's not that it's effortless by any means though. There are still times when I want to go back to my old ways- that temptation is there. But it's a commitment like anything else. There's times when everything is going well and I think "wow- this is the best thing ever" and then there's other times that things aren't going as well or I don't feel good and it's like I just want to throw in the towel. I made a decision to be myself so it was definitely a commitment of sorts- almost like a commitment to myself really!

I realized that I was constantly watering my personality down- that I really stood for nothing. I also felt that people liked me but didn't necessarily respect me because I never set any boundaries. Whereas now, I feel that I'm more respected. I don't agree with everything but equally, I'm more real. I also feel less resentful too because I'm setting boundaries. I'm not overextending myself and burning out anymore.

It's interesting that you say that people give you unsolicited advice. I'm guessing that you're fairly laid-back/easy-going naturally- that you take direction well. It's good that you set boundaries with those people though because unsolicited advice is annoying! I don't like being told what to do so when people gave me advice before, I'd think that it was none of their business and basically had an answer for everything! I'd think "yes but". As in "yes you have a good point but... " and then I'd list all my objections. I think that it's good to strike a balance though. There's times when I'm right to put my foot down and say "this is what I want and that's it" whereas there's other times when I have to compromise. It all depends on the context really.

[fromheeltoheal]

Thanks music, I appreciate your insight.

if they're not an empathetic person, then they're not going to give me the compassion and understanding that I want. I try to look for honest people- not "yes men". There's no point having someone tell me that I'm doing everything right when I'm not. If I'm doing something wrong, then I want to be told-I want people to be blunt with me instead of tippy-toeing around me. I like understanding people but at the same time, I don't need the amount of validation that a borderline craves. I have a thicker skin and just want people to call a spade a spade.

I've found that it depends on how I'm doing.  If I'm weak and beat up, like I was after my breakup, I do need understanding and validation, and some folks, most folks it seems, that I know anyway, aren't willing or able to give me that.  I've been practicing asking for what I need, which is new, but I figure I have a better chance of getting it if I ask.  I've also got some ballbreakers in my life, people who are rude and tactless in their own way, but I know they care about me, they just aren't warm-n-fuzzy types, and I also know they won't lie to me; people like that come in handy when I'm feeling good but need a reality check, but aren't much help when I'm feeling down.

But basically, be aware that other people are saboteurs and just keep an eye out for them. If it crops up, just stand up for yourself and don't let them stop you from succeeding... .just stick to your guns.

Yeah, sucks.  I don't sabotage people, and in my youth I'd assume everyone was like me, in my naivety, which is a good way to get screwed.  It is also new to hang back and see what I'm getting before I let fly with who I am, takes restraint.

I also felt that people liked me but didn't necessarily respect me because I never set any boundaries. Whereas now, I feel that I'm more respected. I don't agree with everything but equally, I'm more real. I also feel less resentful too because I'm setting boundaries. I'm not overextending myself and burning out anymore.

Yes!  I made it a point to get people to like me, classic people pleaser, and I was very good at it, but I agree, lots of people liked me but not as many respected me.  Since I have likability down I'm going for respect now, and they're not mutually exclusive, but if folks are only going to give me one, I'll take respect these days.

It's interesting that you say that people give you unsolicited advice. I'm guessing that you're fairly laid-back/easy-going naturally- that you take direction well. It's good that you set boundaries with those people though because unsolicited advice is annoying!

I think that it's good to strike a balance though. There's times when I'm right to put my foot down and say "this is what I want and that's it" whereas there's other times when I have to compromise. It all depends on the context really.

People love to give unsolicited advice, not just to me, and I do consider it rude and annoying.  What I'm working on though is the striking a balance you mention.  If someone pisses me off I'm really good at leaving, but that isn't always the answer, too black and white.  If a person is a positive addition to my life and they do one thing wrong, it would be better to talk it out with them instead of just bailing.  Talking it out takes more courage, I favored the easy way out in the past, and it's time to stop that.  The times I have brought things up with people I'm close to not only has it gotten resolved but I misunderstood in a few cases, and it made us closer.  What a concept.

Thanks again.  Take care of you!

[musicfan42]

fromheeltoheal- You say that you know a few "ballbreakers". I know the type. Like you say, they're great when you're in a good mood and can handle the tough love. If I'm feeling low, then their words can seem brutal to me. I found it helpful to go to support groups for a while. I was around other people with similar issues and it was a place where I got to talk and feel heard. I wasn't given advice per se- it was more along the lines of giving you coping tools and then sharing how you got on with them. Support groups aren't for everyone but they're just a possible option. I didn't feel that I was getting the kind of support I wanted at one point so I thought "I am going to get the help I need" and was really proactive about looking for it. I feel that you have to be kind of really persistent about it- to keep chasing it up until you do get what you want.

It's great that you're asking for what you need. People aren't mind-readers so it's good for them as well... they have a better idea of what you need/want as opposed to try to guess. I know someone really stoical and they're very nice but honestly, when they're feeling down, I sometimes think that I've done something "wrong"/ something to upset them. I can take it personally when really, they're in a world of their own- worrying about this or that yet not telling me because they don't want to seem "like a burden". I'd actually much prefer to know. That way, I'd be able to say definitively "Ok, it's not me... they're just worried about x/y/z" whereas the way things are, I'm often left guessing. I don't know if you are stoical or not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you tell people you're okay all the time, they believe it. They say "well okay- they must be fine". They don't know what you're thinking and most people aren't that observant because they're so absorbed in their own stuff essentially. I think that people want to believe that you're okay too because it's easier than the alternative. It's easier to bury the problem than deal with it. And society basically gears everyone to be stoical/not talk about things which is a really faulty system.

I noticed that you say it's new to hang back and see what you're getting. It takes time to get used to that. I'm good at it now but it's not my natural inclination. I tend to want to just dive into things. It's only the fact that this approach hasn't worked for me in the past that stops me... that makes me more cautious now. I thought everyone was like me too! ha! I definitely assumed the best of people- thought about all their potential... I was idealistic. I've learned that I can basically train myself into any new habit though. I used to think "oh I won't be able to that"- but I can! I think my attitude now is as long as I'm physically capable of doing it, then I can do it. I used to think "oh I have depression, low self-esteem" etc etc. I was letting these things become barriers whereas now I'm like "eh-I can get past these barriers".

I had to get used to the idea of being "unlikable" as well... to say "ok I'd rather be respected than liked". There's times now where I set boundaries with people... .and they don't like it at all. And that's uncomfortable. It was much easier to be a people pleaser. It was comfortable. But in the long-run, it was disastrous. I also experienced a loss of self-respect pleasing everyone else all the time!

You mention that if someone pisses you off, then you leave. I actually do that too. But it's more along the lines that someone keeps doing something that annoys me. And then I think "urgh I can't stand this person anymore". I used to just explode at that point and lose my temper with them. They'd be like "wtf" because it'd seem like it came out of nowhere to them whereas for me, it had been building up for so long. They were used to me being so accommodating so to see the opposite was truly a shock to them. I still am prone to cutting people out of my life too hastily but I don't lose my temper anymore... that's the only difference.

I agree with you that it's better to talk it out with them than just bailing but there's still a part of me that just resists it sometimes for some reason. It's like I'm afraid I'll just lose my temper with them- that it'll end in a big argument. So I've been working on my assertiveness skills. I still don't really trust people so that's a major part of my reticence to really admit when I'm pissed off with someone. I assume that people will use it against me- throw it back in my face. I tend to think that I can only rely on myself- that everyone will eventually turn against me or reject me so it's kind of like I reject them first at times. I think friendships and relationships are really hard. I didn't realize how hard they actually were when I was younger whereas now I do. I think this is why I've become more introverted... I'm more aware now of the effort involved in maintaining friendships and relationships and a lot of the time, I don't think it's really worth it. I tend to think "oh I can't be bothered" almost.

[fromheeltoheal]

I had to get used to the idea of being "unlikable" as well... to say "ok I'd rather be respected than liked". There's times now where I set boundaries with people... .and they don't like it at all. And that's uncomfortable. It was much easier to be a people pleaser. It was comfortable. But in the long-run, it was disastrous. I also experienced a loss of self-respect pleasing everyone else all the time!

To me there's three modes: passive, aggressive and assertive.  I spent many years in passive mode, and if I got pissed off I would just leave.  Many people were probably confused as to what happened since I never told them; it was a passive aggressive way of enforcing boundaries, and they needed to be enforced, although the way I did it discarded the relationship.  Not really a win-win.

Lately, and fueled by the anger I've felt since leaving my borderline, I've found aggression, which feels a lot better than passive, but still destroys relationships.  Like we've talked about, sometimes it's better to be respected than liked, and there were plenty of people I didn't want in my life, so might as well go out with a bang and earn some respect.  Hey, it's a process.

And then of course the sweet spot is assertiveness.  Still working on that one, and I've found that I need to be centered and grounded to pull it off, which is a good goal and something I can control.

I think friendships and relationships are really hard.

No sht.  It's a conundrum, because we are social animals who are hardwired to connect, but people can be such a pain in the a$s.  So what to do?  I can only control who I show up as, and there are depths I haven't gotten to with a few people I'm close to yet.  The holy grail to me is being completely open, honest and vulnerable with someone who accepts me unconditionally regardless, and vice versa.  So far the only creatures I've been successful with are my dogs, but they do it very well.  Still pushing with humans, and as mentioned I do best when I'm grounded and centered, which are good goals and things I can control.  Whatever.  I wouldn't be in this place if it wasn't for my borderline experience, at least not yet probably, so onward and upward.  Thanks for your insight.