I would not sleep well at night giving out this sort of false hope

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My belief is that people will come to their own decision about if and when they want to leave a relationship. If they do, they need the skills they will develop and learn in the book in order to leave. Or stay.

Many drug addicts have their misguided beliefs of not being able to resist something that is ultimately harmful for them but think it is in their best interests. To quote my BPDx "Cocaine is good it makes me happy". "methamphetine made me lose weight"

it is my belief there needs people out there who have been down that path and have a moral duty to steer people out of the beliefs they have became seduced into, trance like, and get that cr@p out of their heads, not to let it mount up but to damage limitate.

I would not sleep well at night giving out this sort of false hope, even if it was a free ebook.

this is detaching from a failed relationship board, breaking free stuff. Prior held beliefs have already been shown to have been structurally unsound. I believe where you are headed with this book is reckless bordering on harmful advice, trying to find a niche or unique selling point to make yourself stand out from an already saturated market.

[Cromwell]

My belief is that people will come to their own decision about if and when they want to leave a relationship. If they do, they need the skills they will develop and learn in the book in order to leave. Or stay.

Many drug addicts have their misguided beliefs of not being able to resist something that is ultimately harmful for them but think it is in their best interests. To quote my BPDx "Cocaine is good it makes me happy". "methamphetine made me lose weight"

it is my belief there needs people out there who have been down that path and have a moral duty to steer people out of the beliefs they have became seduced into, trance like, and get that cr@p out of their heads, not to let it mount up but to damage limitate.

I would not sleep well at night giving out this sort of false hope, even if it was a free ebook.

this is detaching from a failed relationship board, breaking free stuff. Prior held beliefs have already been shown to have been structurally unsound. I believe where you are headed with this book is reckless bordering on harmful advice, trying to find a niche or unique selling point to make yourself stand out from an already saturated market.

[Randi Kreger]

I would not sleep well at night giving out this sort of false hope, even if it was a free ebook. ... //... I believe where you are headed with this book is reckless bordering on harmful advice, trying to find a niche or unique selling point to make yourself stand out from an already saturated market.

Are you saying that I should tell people to leave if they are married to a narcissist? I have books on my bookshelf for women who are getting beaten by men regularly who don’t tell the women to leave because they know that it’s fruitless. They guide them out of the relationship but they know it Has to be the woman’s own decision. They have a section entitled if you decide to stay.

I think you would get a lot of people who said that they want to stay in the relationship and they would list of a bunch of reasons why.

[Notwendy]

Maybe this idea would be better received on a different board than detatching- where members have already ended a relationship.

I also think it helps to consider the spectrum. Some partners are dealing with serious physical/emotional abuse, drug and alcohol addiction, infidelity. Others are dealing with the milder end - traits- that cause considerable issues, but aren't on the scale of those with severe BPD or NPD.

If there is co-morbidity, then the picture can be confusing. Also, a "you have no options but to leave now" may not be feasible in the moment. Some couples may have small children to consider and other factors. When there are children involved, even leaving doesn't end the need to be in contact and have discussions/arrangements. In this case, tips to deal with someone may be helpful even if the relationship is over.

[Cromwell]

Are you saying that I should tell people to leave if they are married to a narcissist?

Any abusive relationship, not just narcissist abuse. The theme so far has been about abusive relationships.

I have books on my bookshelf for women who are getting beaten by men regularly who don’t tell the women to leave because they know that it’s fruitless. They guide them out of the relationship but they know it Has to be the woman’s own decision. They have a section entitled if you decide to stay.

If such books are written as "self help" category, there already is an underlying implication here - that the reader is looking for pragmatic advice that is written to solve their problem. That they have found themselves out of their depth.

I see little value in reading something open-ended, fence sitting, "if you stay do this", "if you leave to do this" - this is not a book on hedge fund management, it is a victim of domestic assault reaching out for help. If an expert is writing a book, there is an expectation for them to be able to provide clear, pragmatic, specific action steps to alleviate the reader's dillema. Otherwise, what is the point? May as well have it listed into the fiction category.  

In 2011, sixteen (16) times as many females were murdered by a male they knew than were killed by male strangers. For victims who knew their offenders, 61% of them were wives or intimate acquaintances of their killers[/b].Source: Violence Policy Center. (2013, September). When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2010 Homicide Data. Washington, DC.[/i]

And these authors on your shelf have a section in their books saying "if you decide to stay?" (where the partners have been regularly beaten).

They either have not read that link in their research, or chose to not take it seriously. By virtue of having a "if you choose to stay" option. It took me only 5 minutes to google.

I would not sleep well knowing that a reader would have been seriously battered or a victim of a homicide, having recently purchased a book I wrote, where I sat on the fence and tepidly gave conflicting stay/leave advice. If im buying a book by an expert, I expect guidance based on deferring my lack of skill in that area to them.

Just as much I would have zero faith in a mechanic would say "well, you can choose to drive with only one wheel nut attached, it might not come off today, tomorrow or next week"

these situations impact more than just the two partners, a wife beater is a problem for society too. (it is actually legally classed as a crime against society here in the UK, with no option to not 'press charges')

Just as a wheel coming off my car from one bolt is a wider public health hazard. It is my choice to drive that way, except, it is a completely misguided one and should be stopped.

If the reader chose to feel "disempowered" by the book they have bought from me, they have the choice to stop reading it, it is either practical self help style or it becomes a "do it yourself" push the responsibility back to the reader by being intentionally broad based advice to the point of being useless,or worse, even more harmful than if they had not bought it at all.

[Randi Kreger]

I wish I had the power to get everybody to leave an abusive relationship. I would click my heels three times. Unfortunately, I don’t have that power.

 I don’t even have the power to get them to protect their children. And I DO tell them to do that.

I even say, leave if you are being seriously emotionally and physically abused, and they don’t think they are. They don’t think their child is going to have scars forever.

I talk to men who are being physically abused all the time and they don’t take it seriously. One man ended up in the hospital and one man was killed.

You assume that I can tell people what to do and they will do it. You assume that their family members don’t tell them to get out of those terribly abusive relationships, but they do, all the time.

You simply can’t stop people from doing things that are self-destructive. Being in an abusive relationship is only one thing. Drugs. Getting into fights. Getting into gangs. Smoking. I bet you even you do something that’s bad for your health. It’s hard enough to change yourself.

You think you can change other people. You can’t. I can’t. It’s just something that we have to accept.

But most people who I talk to through my books Move towards a healthier relationships, and if that includes leaving, it includes leaving. I’m satisfied with that.

[JNChell]

Hi, Randi. I feel fortunate to be a part of this community while you are actively posting. Your schedule, I assume, is a very busy one. Whether it’s research for writing material or for conversation, in my humble opinion, who cares. You’re posting and I’m grateful for that.

Your last post resonated with “easier said than done”. I’m in no way trying to minimize what it must be like to treat clients that are unable to let go. It’s not easy and I attest to that. I would say that you’re strong to be able to see past that and continually sit with people where they are. You’re able to see it from a higher place.

You’ve taken your education and knowledge and done great things with it. I understand that personality disorders are a fairly new thing. By fairly new, I mean decades. Is it common for psychological findings/theories to take generations to begin to be recognized and possibly accepted by the mental health community for discussion? Also, what is your stance on trauma and how it can manifest individually? Glad to be reading what you have to say.

[Skip]

Just as much I would have zero faith in a mechanic would say "well, you can choose to drive with only one wheel nut attached, it might not come off today, tomorrow or next week"

Every time my partner goes to the car dealer to get anything done, she calls me with a list of things the mechanic tells her she needs. Last week he told her she needed 4 new tires because one had to be replaced.

That seemed excessive to me. I called the manufacturer and inquired about the wheel diameter tolerances, then asked the service manager to measure the current diameters and it turns out that the wheels were within spec.

No one can argue that replacing all 4 tires wouldn't be the best thing for everyone.

We decided to replace one tire.

Interestingly, I learned that there are companies that have equipment to wear down the new tire to be the exact diameter as the existing tires.

Which one of the three is giving false hope?

Maybe in a black and white world, we could do this, but relationship problems are far from black and white.

A few years back, we had a member who felt very strongly that the government should make it illegal for people with BPD to have children.  When we probed her on how the government would know, she suggested that there is a high correlations of left-handedness / thyroid disorders with pwBPD. There actually is a higher prevalence of thyroid disorders in people with BPD, but certainly its not predictive.

And my last point, what is the best book out there for someone wanting to leave an domestic abuse relationship? To your point, I did a quick search an couldn't find many books on the subject and every one that I found look like it had very very low readership. Maybe it's time for someone to write that book.


Curious to read others thoughts on giving false hope. It's a good topic.

[empath]

In 2011, sixteen (16) times as many females were murdered by a male they knew than were killed by male strangers. For victims who knew their offenders, 61% of them were wives or intimate acquaintances of their killers[/b].Source: Violence Policy Center. (2013, September). When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2010 Homicide Data. Washington, DC.[/i]

The most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when they leave or filing for divorce; that's why often in our conversations here, we talk about safety planning and things like that. One of the risk factors for lethality is the presence of mental health issues. Add to that financial abuse is usually present and that limits access to financial resources.

Often people in abusive relationships have very little ability to make choices for themselves. Most dv workers start by encouraging people to make those choices. DV experts usually caution against telling a victim what to do because it just adds another person who is telling them what to do.

[Cromwell]

You simply can’t stop people from doing things that are self-destructive.

Police officers stop suicidal people from doing what they want.

Casinos effect bans on those who have gambling problems.

Pubs refuse to sell alcohol to those who are under age or those of age who are so inebriated that they are at risk of self destructive behaviour.

Judges Jail physically abusive partners, stopping the behaviour even if the partner has previously tip-toed-on-eggshells and decided to stay as a result of reading a book that provided ambiguous 'advice'.

Forum members stop replying to posters who rather than pointing out inaccuracies in fact or logic, resort to creating straw man arguments and take it upon themselves to state what they think the other "thinks" or "assumes, ignore sources provided.

I bet even you do something that’s bad for your health.

"even you" - no no Randi, you got this wrong. "I bow down to the superiority of your advice, worship the ground you walk on and hang on to every thing you say". its all about you here, its your book, its your fan mail (mostly) as you say, that matters most in this quest.

But maybe just how Barbara McIntlock went against all the mainstream advice and everyone ate humble pie afterwards, perhaps you will pull off the same feat where you bucked the trend of "leave an abusive relationship". I mean, if anyone gets the head mashed in with a dinner plate, or ends up a homicide victim, if they "decided" to stay - at least "most" seemed happy. We could always just pick apart the statistics instead, no wait, lets just ignore it completely. Genius and refer back to (glow text) of how I feel, even though I believe/suspect youd prefer to tell me that too. Alongside the strawman argument focusing on what i "think" or "assume".

[JNChell]

Cromwell. You and I have been members of this community for roughly the same amount of time. We’ve engaged in some great discussions with one another and you’ve done your service in being supportive to others. I understand that this is an emotional topic for you. I’m not seeing anyone avoiding to engage you here. This is your thread and a conversation is taking place. Speaking only for myself, I’m having a hard time finding an “in” to engage. I get the impression that you’re feeling pretty emotionally charged. It can be uncomfortable to engage in that. I hope I’m making sense to you.

I can see logic in every point of view that is being discussed/argued in this discussion so far.

Here’s my take. If an individual that is being abused isn’t ready to hear the word “leave”, then they won’t. As much as we may care or have cause for concern, it’s their choice alone. No stats, data or even professionals can convince someone to leave if they’ve not yet figured out that it’s in their best interests to do so. How many times did we take our exes back after they exited the relationship and left for us? I wasn’t ready to end the turmoil. I never feared for my life at the hands of S4’s mom, but I ended up in a very bad and low place emotionally. I began fearing myself because I had become that adversely affected by continuing with her time and time again. I even spent some time in the hospital. What I’m trying to say is that I wasn’t ready yet. A lot of people aren’t ready. Do you feel that the ones that aren’t yet ready deserve solid resources and support from peers and professionals? If these resources aren’t available to them, what would that do for the hope that exists for them to eventually do what is best for them? Just some thoughts. I hope this makes sense to you.

[Randi Kreger]

Hi, Randi. I feel fortunate to be a part of this community while you are actively posting. Your schedule, I assume, is a very busy one. Whether it’s research for writing material or for conversation, in my humble opinion, who cares. You’re posting and I’m grateful for that.

Your last post resonated with “easier said than done”. I’m in no way trying to minimize what it must be like to treat clients that are unable to let go. It’s not easy and I attest to that. I would say that you’re strong to be able to see past that and continually sit with people where they are. You’re able to see it from a higher place.

You’ve taken your education and knowledge and done great things with it. I understand that personality disorders are a fairly new thing. By fairly new, I mean decades. Is it common for psychological findings/theories to take generations to begin to be recognized and possibly accepted by the mental health community for discussion? Also, what is your stance on trauma and how it can manifest individually? Glad to be reading what you have to say.

It takes more than decades. I’m not a therapist, so I really don’t have a stance on trauma. I have chronic post Trumatic stress disorder (with flashbacks) from having a borderline mother and have had EMDR and something called brain spotting that helped a bit. I believe that the trauma causes physical symptoms in me. Trauma changes the body and the brain.

[Randi Kreger]

Police officers stop suicidal people from doing what they want.

Casinos effect bans on those who have gambling problems.

Pubs refuse to sell alcohol to those who are under age or those of age who are so inebriated that they are at risk of self destructive behaviour.

Judges Jail physically abusive partners, stopping the behaviour even if the partner has previously tip-toed-on-eggshells and decided to stay as a result of reading a book that provided ambiguous 'advice'.

Forum members stop replying to posters who rather than pointing out inaccuracies in fact or logic, resort to creating straw man arguments and take it upon themselves to state what they think the other "thinks" or "assumes, ignore sources provided.


"even you" - no no Randi, you got this wrong. "I bow down to the superiority of your advice, worship the ground you walk on and hang on to every thing you say". its all about you here, its your book, its your fan mail (mostly) as you say, that matters most in this quest.

But maybe just how Barbara McIntlock went against all the mainstream advice and everyone ate humble pie afterwards, perhaps you will pull off the same feat where you bucked the trend of "leave an abusive relationship". I mean, if anyone gets the head mashed in with a dinner plate, or ends up a homicide victim, if they "decided" to stay - at least "most" seemed happy. We could always just pick apart the statistics instead, no wait, lets just ignore it completely. Genius and refer back to (glow text) of how I feel, even though I believe/suspect youd prefer to tell me that too. Alongside the strawman argument focusing on what i "think" or "assume".

It sounds like you were doing quite a bit of projection here and making assumptions about how I view myself and my role. I think it would help youto take the bull by the horn’s and simply write your own book and make it your own crusade to force people to do as you wish them to. 

Don’t depend on other authors. I think this is something you need to do yourself and it’s certainly something you believe in. I started out with nothing. There’s no reason you can’t start your own publishing firm and say whatever you want to.

[zachira]

One of the terrible effects of being abused  is the abuser destroys the self esteem of the person he/she is abusing. Abusers are usually expert manipulators of the vulnerabilities of the person he/she is abusing. As mentioned before, the most dangerous time to leave an abusive relationship is right after leaving, as the partner being abused is most likely to be killed by the abuser during this period. It often takes a lot of courage, resolve, and a safe place to go, to leave an abusive relationship.

[itsmeSnap]

In terms of getting someone to do anything, whats the first thing to do?

I saw from a number of places the first thing is to make the situation feel safe, not by "reassuring" someone, but by providing options, choices, and certainty, mostly about that you indeed know what you are doing and that they can actually do the thing that they want to do.

At first contact, you don't tell a person to leave because at that moment THEY DONT WANT TO. By giving them the option and working through the issue, they start to see which "solution" better fits their needs.

When a person does not want to change its because there is a need that would not be met with an alternative. Like the drug addicted ex, she thinks cocaine was good for her because there "was" no other way for her to "be happy", at the very least she thought so.

Why do people cheat? Because they're not getting their need met "at home"

As soon as you can provide the need in a more convenient, safer way, the choice is straightforward. Its tricky to make the alternative "comparable", so its not like you can just tell someone " do this, its better for you": they don't trust it, and they're not gonna let you take the only thing they know away from them, even if it hurts them.

Give them options, good options, "comparable" options. What's the better option to nudge them to leave if that's what you want them to do it?

Foot in the door, successive requests (do note that if people agree you can take this all the way to "impossible demands", try not to do that ): take a day off, focus on yourself, go out and have friends, meet some new people, fall in love again. with a safe anchor in another port, then people leave. Its not rocket science, you simply don't want to let go of the rope before you feel the ground under your feet, or at the very least, you've climbed far enough down while still hanging on that it looks like you're confident you could brace the fall without death or broken limbs.

That's what I think anyway.

[Randi Kreger]

Please forgive the typos as I am writing this on a tiny phone and I have to be at a photo shoot and I am very late.

I would like  to step back and answer this question the way that I should’ve answered it when you first asked it.

I have been interacting with people in abusive relationships for 20 years. The way I view things now is not the way I viewed things to 20 years ago. During those 20 years, like an emergency room nurse or a policeman, I have only been able to do my job by Being able to distance myself to a certain extent to human suffering. Otherwise I could not do my job.

I deal with some very very horrible things. The most horrible thing that I have ever heard was from a woman with a borderline mother. She told me that HER  mother once broke up crying because when SHE  was a child,  her very disturbed mOM (the poster’s grandmother) Forced her mother to drown her own kitten.

The mother cried as she remembered the poor kitten scratching On the barrel as it drowned. And I love cats more than anything in the world. Cats were there for me when I had to deal with my own borderline mother. And I can’t get that story out of my head. It haunts me. I’ve never told it to anybody in my own life. That is the kind of stuff that makes me not sleep at night.

The only way I survive hearing abusive stories from men who have been battered to children who have been scarred forever to women who have been screamed at  in cars where they can’t get out is to face the fact That I cannot save the world.  That is all anybody can do who is in a helping profession. We can only do all that we can do. We can help all that we can help... But we cannot save the world.

But as I read about about the abuse I have seen here it just makes me tear up and want to sob. It is the children that get me. The adults can make a choice. The children can’t. I was a child who couldn’t make a choice.

If I could, I would take each abused person, adult or child,  and I would enfold  them in my arms, and I would take them away from anybody who would harm them.I would hide them in my basement. I would give them my spare bedroom. I would take them to a domestic violence center. I would ask my friends to open up their homes.

I would take every bit of training than I have and I would tell them that they are a beautiful wonderful people who just happened for one reason or another to get involved with somebody who never saw their unique loveliness and never appreciated what they had.

Instead, as a self-help book author, my job has been to look at the larger view of things. To take different types of people who are suffering and see the similarities between them and figure out by doing research and 1 million other things how I can help all of them at the same time by writing a book.

I can’t help one person at a time. Only rarely.  That’s what they do so well here at BPD family, and that’s what Therapist do and domestic violence shelters do and so on.

 But there are times I do talk to people one on one. Just the other day I talked  to a woman who is in a terribly abusive relationship, and she thought that she could handle it.

And I told her I have some bad news for you. You may be able to handle it, but your children can’t. They are being scarred.

 I want you to imagine the abusive Thing that happened to you in front of your 5 and 8 year old that you just described and I want you to see it as a movie and I want you to watch you and the children in the movie. You told me that they cried. I want you to watch them crying.

And sure enough, she began crying. And I realize that I had changed her life forever.  She told me that she knew she had to leave. To do something.

And I knew that would happen. I don’t know what gave me the right to change her life forever and the way she would view her marriage.

But I wasn’t gonna let it go. I told her to call me the next day and told me how she was doing, and she thanked me for telling her. She said she knew she had to get out. I kept on checking on her. And I still will and I will never forget her.

There was a man who called me. He said he was getting a divorce from a narcissist, and he had to choose between losing everything he owned or losing custody of the kids.

Because I had a borderline mother and a narcissistic father, I started crying and I couldn’t speak and I wasn’t sure I should be in the position of telling him what to do because he could always blame me if it was the wrong thing.

Maybe sitting in the dark in an apartment with no money.

But he didn’t need to ask me.  He heard me crying. He thanked me and hung up the phone. And then a couple years later he called me and he told me that he chose the kids. And that meant more to me than 100 emails of people thanking me in general.

It is very very very hard listening to sad stories all the time. You reminded me exactly how hard it is, and I think that my answers were trying to shove away exactly how hard that can be.

 When I started this book, here’s the thing: the biggest reason I had for not doing it at all was because I didn’t think I could take it. I didn’t think I could handle people choosing to stay in abusive relationships. I just couldn’t relate to it, although the circumstances happened that made me relate to it a lot more.

 You are the first person I am telling that, and I’m not even sure that I should mention that here because I don’t necessarily want people to think that I believe they are in abusive relationships because you can’t tell people that when they don’t want to believe it. They simply get angry at me.

What I have to do is simply tell them what the domestic violence websites say and then ask them to compare it to their own home life.

 Coming here on the boards or talking to the people that I have collected on my own on the phone, I am learning all over again how hard it can be working with people who take abuse for granted or minimize it or who don’t understand that they are being abused. It is hard! It is very very very very very very hard!

 But I do it because I am in a unique position to help them.

So I want to tell you that I understand where you’re coming from. I am very sorry if I invalidated you before and I understand why you got angry. I didn’t mean to get defensive or push against what you were saying.

The gist of what I was saying is that I can’t make up peoples minds for them. And that is true. When people go to a Therapist, the therapist cannot make up peoples minds for them. And that is true.

But that doesn’t make us like it. We don’t like it. We all want to take the person in our arms and tell them how special they are, and tell them how they deserve to be treated.

We want to find him a better mother, a better father, a better husband, a better life. Sometimes I want to take the abuser and shake them and make them apologize.

I have a hard enough time reconciling the fact that writing these books triggers my own experiences with cluster B personality. I have to add to that burden listening to the experiences of everybody else. No wonder I want to push it away.

I have to or my book will never get done and the people that I want to help I never get help unless I focus on what I’m trying to do. As you can see from BPD family though, I do take time to talk to people on the boards. I had this long conversation with you and I have long conversations with other people trying to help them.


But you need to know something that I know: The joy for me in this work is not having people know me or anything about being known or having people think I’m an expert blah blah blah blah blah.

I get tons and tons of criticism from people thinking I am a devil worshiper to accusing me of not writing the book to 1000 borderlines thinking I created stigma all on my own. Believe me, being an author is not all it’s cracked up to be. I wish I could let you try it for a day and discover that on your own.

What makes this job worthwhile Is people saying that I helped them see that their relationship wasn’t right the way it is or was. I don’t know if they left or not, but I do know that their eyes were opened. I do know that many left untenable situations. They tell me so.

But before they can leave an untenable situation, they need to know that it is not normal and they need to know they are not being treated well. They write me letters telling me that my books helped them do that.

And that is how I sleep at night.

[Cromwell]

But before they can leave an untenable situation, they need to know that it is not normal and they need to know they are not being treated well. They write me letters telling me that my books helped them do that.

Hi Randi,

They know already at least subconcious level, it is denial that needs to be broken down. I have been in two gangs, taken drugs, had an alcohol problem whilst continued to stay in an abusive toxic relationship. My finances were cr@p, each time I opened the door to my cr@p car I knew this, I did not need a book on finances to open my eyes. My health deteriorated, I did not to stand on a scale to open my eyes I was becoming overweight, or to read a book on sleep to know I was sleep deprived. But thats what being in denial does, it is embracing the non black and white world I live in today and replacing it with smoke and mirrors foggy alternative.

Are relationships not black and white? My argument is, they can be as straightfoward as we choose them to be. My advice would not fill a book but a leaflet of bullet points. In terms of physical abuse - "leave straight away, do not drive and risk crashing your car, contact and report this to the authorities who are trained to support you" Do not read this leaflet any further, if you choose not to follow this advice the rest of it will be of no value to you. Staying is NOT an option. You can choose to ignore this, that is fine, you can choose to call the author "arrogant" or insinuate he is 'narcissistic' (it is only arrogant if I dont actually know better btw) - because I was once in this situation you were, I am now out of it. Arguing against the advice or targetting the one who wrote it, will not help. I am not emotionally involved but you bought this leaflet and I am not only paid to tell you what you have been so far unable to accomplish yourself - but I will not sleep at night taking your money and telling you what I think you want to hear, rather than what I have done myself and what has worked.

I do not have 20 years experience, I do not claim to be an expert (there are no authorities in science btw).

Thats probably half of the leaflet and its free of charge. The rest is I occassionaly try to help people out here despite my therapist saying "you are in no position to help anyone" (when I was with my ex).

I would have liked to have had denial annihilated from my life during that time Randi, if you are able to do this and have accomplished this, I wish you the best. On the other hand, I cant endorse any book by any author that is apologistic in nature or that does anything less than wake people the hell up, by whatever means necessary.

Yep, you cant "win" them all, if people have called you a devil worshipper, who knows, that angry response might be a sign you have accomplished something. I was not angry at those who told me to leave, just dismissive, denial was heavy. Having your book if I could have hid it well enough, could have helped even to the extent that my acknowledgement of having to hide it would be in-my-face bit of extra evidence that there was something not quite right in the "i love you" messages I heard every day and having to use up a lot of energy to filter all the rest out. very unhealthy.

Well im better now, life is black and white and works for me but it took time. To anyone else, its your life not mine, i am not emotionally involved and I am not selling any product. Happy to help as best I can, if its not good enough - "best of luck then!" anyway. not more I can do.

[JNChell]

Staying is NOT an option.

Sometimes it is. You and I both stayed and returned for more. It was an option.

if I dont actually know better

This is why literature is so important. You and I didn’t have a real grasp on this stuff until we landed here. We found help and a wealth of knowledge. Many people need the resources that you’re arguing against. I can look back on times when I needed resources that would allow me to stay. Can you?

- but I will not sleep at night taking your money and telling you what I think you want to hear, rather than what I have done myself and what has worked.

Perhaps this is a black and white statement, but this is not a fair approach to debate. You’re taking this personally. Why?

I cant endorse any book by any author that is apologistic in nature or that does anything less than wake people the hell up, by whatever means necessary

You have a right to do that. You also have a right to read what you want to. People wake up on their own. A book doesn’t do that. Great expectations of others will never serve you. If you’re relying on others to “wake the hell up”, you simply need to find a mirror. It comes from within. Literature helps.

Yep, you cant "win" them all, if people have called you a devil worshipper, who knows, that angry response might be a sign you have accomplished something.

You have said that you are diagnosed with a PD. Otherwise specified. Are you feeling triggered or dysregulated? This isn’t a jab, it’s a serious question. I’m not seeing the Cromwell that I have previously. How are you feeling?

Happy to help as best I can

This isn’t helping anyone. Center yourself. That’s when you help.

[Cromwell]

Staying is NOT an option.

Sometimes it is. You and I both stayed and returned for more. It was an option.

even in a physically abusive relationship? (which is what I stated).

if I dont actually know better

This is why literature is so important. You and I didn’t have a real grasp on this stuff until we landed here. We found help and a wealth of knowledge. Many people need the resources that you’re arguing against. I can look back on times when I needed resources that would allow me to stay. Can you?

I havent read any books on BPD. Why would I? I just left her. it worked. Im glad I did not read any books at that emotionally vulnerable stage that might have tempted to me stay or try again.

Perhaps this is a black and white statement, but this is not a fair approach to debate. You’re taking this personally. Why?

It is well known and evidenced even in this thread that when people face difficult choices, it can be easier to redirect and blame the "bearer of bad news" rather than make that difficult choice. I have not taken anything personally but a book does not offer a 2 way medium of exchange, if I am writing for a broad audience, it has to encompass a lot. The operative word I used being "if you choose not to follow this advice".

Literature helps.

Literature "can" help the wrong kind can also "hinder" - you know this yourself with your post before on "Junk psychology".

You have said that you are diagnosed with a PD. Otherwise specified. Are you feeling triggered or dysregulated? This isn’t a jab, it’s a serious question. I’m not seeing the Cromwell that I have previously. How are you feeling?

I never said it was a jab - why would I?

I dont answer stuff that bears no relevance to posting an opinion and whether you agree or disagree with it. Point out errors in logic, not try to cast aspersions on the poster. Go help someone else JNChell, from what I recall, physical alteration was a feature in your relationship - not mine.

The amount of relevance your comment has is about the same as me saying "JNChell you worked as a salesman for a book company - i read an article that says narcissists feature highly as salespersons".

Loop back to what I said previously to Randi - heres the stats for your book research, if you disagree with them - its your choice, do not even expect a thanks for giving you them. In your case JNChell - we can go on as much as we want on our opinions, but just because you have an issue with whatever you choose to slice and dice from what I have to say, does not = finding error in the logic of the statements. Rounding off with casting up a PD:NS to try and bulk what you are saying as having more credit - that does not work either, at least not with me.

Anyway, book research over. Im done here.

[JNChell]

Cromwell, what’s going on? What are you feeling? This isn’t about a book. It’s about you being pissed. What are you pissed about? We’ve all been where you are. You know what the spirit of this community is about. We have your back. Do you have our’s?

I’ve noticed that you give very articulated advice, but you don’t share much. Share, man!

Share something. You’ll feel better.

I’d like to see the Cromwell that is contributing in a positive way. Read back through your posts and see for yourself.

What’s going on? Talk about it. It will help.

[Cromwell]

Just at a low energy state at the moment JNChell.

Too much stress, too much of having to use these tools on variants of my ex. variants but with a common denoinator - want to use, if not use and abuse. exploit. Ive been beguiled all week to try and slyly do their work for them, at a time where a quarter of the class is gone, dropped out, and as Skip says, these disorders get magnified in these times.

The work itself, it is a breeze. I have the aptitude, the passion. It has been my therapy, a distraction from my ex. I face it all sober, and switched on, get through each day. Its just after 3 years, i recognise it far better than I ever did before.

it is a mental strain to have to be always vigilant - but someone has to. Im not on here as much, I cant be two places at once, I do my bit offline, there is plenty to do and the byproduct of it is interlinked here. So if I seem different from before, its because of this, then coming here in that state and being triggered.

I feel weird, like everything BPD related, my ex included, it has just been completely erased out. her spirit and memory only exist in new triggers in others. I feel better for it, healthy as a result, but at the same time theres something I cant even express how I feel - how I could be able to feel what I once did, and to now feel, indifferent.  It feels like having just undergone a successful amputation, it feels a great burden is gone, at the same time it feels weird not having it, adapting to life without it, but as each day passes by missing it less, remembering it less. Scared of change JNChell, thats all. no more drama, no more fights, all that ive got left to keep the memory alive, being sarcastic to Randi. If I didnt do that, or visit here, my ex is non-existent.

[JNChell]

I understand what you’re saying, but this isn’t the way to blot out your ex. You’re trying to go around when you need to go through my friend. Trying to go around just keeps you stuck in her orbit. Even without her knowing.

It sounds like you’re a bit overwhelmed with stress and feelings. Have you given any thought about getting yourself back into therapy? If you find the right T, it truly does help. I’m not speaking about a status quo. I’m being sincere.

I feel weird as well. It’s for different reasons, but it’s intertwined in this big mess of abuse, disorders, trauma and healing that we all share. You’re not alone, man. I feel weird because I’m at a very weird place with everything. My childhood is at the surface and I just feel off for now. Very off. I can’t quite describe it as acute. I don’t really have a word for it. I think I’m slowly shedding some really bad stuff. It doesn’t feel good yet. I hope that it eventually will.

Distractions from your ex won’t heal you. It’s just prolonging your pain. It will always return until you make the choice to go through the healing process, as well as look inward.

You’ve hit a rough patch recently. Completely understandable. This  isn’t easy by any means. I wish that I had folks in the flesh that I could talk about this stuff with. As it is, I really don’t. I, like you, have this community though. I respect this place and the members. Through all of the pain and growth, I see a Fellowship here. I’m glad to speak with you again, Cromwell.

[Randi Kreger]

Hi Randi,

They know already at least subconcious level, it is denial that needs to be broken down. I have been in two gangs, taken drugs, had an alcohol problem whilst continued to stay in an abusive toxic relationship. My finances were cr@p, each time I opened the door to my cr@p car I knew this, I did not need a book on finances to open my eyes. My health deteriorated, I did not to stand on a scale to open my eyes I was becoming overweight, or to read a book on sleep to know I was sleep deprived. But thats what being in denial does, it is embracing the non black and white world I live in today and replacing it with smoke and mirrors foggy alternative.

Are relationships not black and white? My argument is, they can be as straightfoward as we choose them to be. My advice would not fill a book but a leaflet of bullet points. In terms of physical abuse - "leave straight away, do not drive and risk crashing your car, contact and report this to the authorities who are trained to support you" Do not read this leaflet any further, if you choose not to follow this advice the rest of it will be of no value to you. Staying is NOT an option. You can choose to ignore this, that is fine, you can choose to call the author "arrogant" or insinuate he is 'narcissistic' (it is only arrogant if I dont actually know better btw) - because I was once in this situation you were, I am now out of it. Arguing against the advice or targetting the one who wrote it, will not help. I am not emotionally involved but you bought this leaflet and I am not only paid to tell you what you have been so far unable to accomplish yourself - but I will not sleep at night taking your money and telling you what I think you want to hear, rather than what I have done myself and what has worked.

I do not have 20 years experience, I do not claim to be an expert (there are no authorities in science btw).

Thats probably half of the leaflet and its free of charge. The rest is I occassionaly try to help people out here despite my therapist saying "you are in no position to help anyone" (when I was with my ex).

I would have liked to have had denial annihilated from my life during that time Randi, if you are able to do this and have accomplished this, I wish you the best. On the other hand, I cant endorse any book by any author that is apologistic in nature or that does anything less than wake people the hell up, by whatever means necessary.

Yep, you cant "win" them all, if people have called you a devil worshipper, who knows, that angry response might be a sign you have accomplished something. I was not angry at those who told me to leave, just dismissive, denial was heavy. Having your book if I could have hid it well enough, could have helped even to the extent that my acknowledgement of having to hide it would be in-my-face bit of extra evidence that there was something not quite right in the "i love you" messages I heard every day and having to use up a lot of energy to filter all the rest out. very unhealthy.

Well im better now, life is black and white and works for me but it took time. To anyone else, its your life not mine, i am not emotionally involved and I am not selling any product. Happy to help as best I can, if its not good enough - "best of luck then!" anyway. not more I can do.

I agree with that. I have a big disclaimer up front that says if you feel unsafe at all, bullet point bullet point bullet point, call domestic violence shelter right now and follow their advice. At that point, learning about personality disorders is moot. Why the speeding train is going to run you over is of no consequence. You just need to get out of the way.

[Randi Kreger]

Cromwell, you said,  “You cant "win" them all, if people have called you a devil worshipper, who knows, that angry response might be a sign you have accomplished something.”



You have no idea how much I totally agree with that statement. I can’t find the quotes because they’re not handy, but the essence of them is that the only way not to be criticized is to do nothing at all. I could write “the sky is blue,” and some people will call me a member of the flat Earth Society. No, that didn’t make any sense. It wasn’t supposed to.

[Randi Kreger]

Just at a low energy state at the moment JNChell.

Too much stress, too much of having to use these tools on variants of my ex. variants but with a common denoinator - want to use, if not use and abuse. exploit. Ive been beguiled all week to try and slyly do their work for them, at a time where a quarter of the class is gone, dropped out, and as Skip says, these disorders get magnified in these times.

The work itself, it is a breeze. I have the aptitude, the passion. It has been my therapy, a distraction from my ex. I face it all sober, and switched on, get through each day. Its just after 3 years, i recognise it far better than I ever did before.

it is a mental strain to have to be always vigilant - but someone has to. Im not on here as much, I cant be two places at once, I do my bit offline, there is plenty to do and the byproduct of it is interlinked here. So if I seem different from before, its because of this, then coming here in that state and being triggered.

I feel weird, like everything BPD related, my ex included, it has just been completely erased out. her spirit and memory only exist in new triggers in others. I feel better for it, healthy as a result, but at the same time theres something I cant even express how I feel - how I could be able to feel what I once did, and to now feel, indifferent.  It feels like having just undergone a successful amputation, it feels a great burden is gone, at the same time it feels weird not having it, adapting to life without it, but as each day passes by missing it less, remembering it less. Scared of change JNChell, thats all. no more drama, no more fights, all that ive got left to keep the memory alive, being sarcastic to Randi. If I didnt do that, or visit here, my ex is non-existent.

You said “variants of your BPD X”. Does that mean that you left your borderline eggs and then got in a relationship with another person with borderline traits? That would make one exhausted.

[Cromwell]

You said “variants of your BPD X”. Does that mean that you left your borderline eggs and then got in a relationship with another person with borderline traits? That would make one exhausted.

Hi Randi, ive been dating and it has not been a nightmare, but it has been a revelation of two things; that emotionally I have not fully healed enough from what has happened but beyond that it is a sign that ive became far better at learning how to discern the fruitcakes from the normal. For some reason I still seemed to seek out and date these type of women, not that it is apparent at first, but on average 4 weeks and it has been get out early discard. It is very cruel though, I can feel joy of a new relationship - it feels like a normal life, then one day I have to listen to stuff like this that comes out of nowhere

"im a sociopath"
"ive never told anyone this before, but im actually a witch!"
"ive got an idea how to defraud the company I work out of money using false aliases"

this was the last one. The only thing that has changed is after hearing this sort of insane drivel for 3 years, it has become equivalent of noise to me, I dont get shocked by it, at least not visibly on the outside. but it is triggering, I discard gracefully, come to this board as a form of mental refreshment. thats been the cycle for the past year of dating. Sure I found women who are normal its just that in addition they seem to want to take on the task of "rescuing" as well. Something I dont need or want or find attractive, but dont blame them either.

3 weeks later I get a call to ask "how are you and... "oh I was really immature, ive changed now" (in 3 weeks ffs?).

If I would go to a therapist I probably would not even be believed by the stories Id tell, it has felt surreal and some days still does. At best I would replace the brainwashing I escaped only to be rescued by a new layer of brainwashing. It would take beyond the free sessions id get just for me to ascertain if the therapist themselves was not BPD, cluster B, or part of the dark triad. It takes far less time dating, ive been round the block enough, not vulnerable any more and not pumped full of mind altering drugs.

I wont ever even give the possibility of being someones source of narcissistic supply. In any case, besides a few triggers I get, Ive recovered and this board has been my solace and therapy. It has helped to talk with JNChell here and you Randi and learn more about your book. All the best.

"I really want to work on a psychiatric ward"
the next day
"i want to be a nun, I am un-f-able"

(this is what ive had to put up with)  no thanks!

[gotbushels]

Cromwell will you please define what (or whom) is giving out false hope here?

I honestly can't see what the starting definition is here, or if it's mentioned on another thread?

From the first post's quote, I see it led in from here. I don't see the connection of someone (Randi?) giving false hope. Thanks.

[Cromwell]

Hi Gotbushels.

I never made this post title gotbushels.

but to put my own view on it; I got the impression that Randi's book made staying in a physically abusive relationship an option. Due to the part "should you choose to stay".

I felt that a victim reading this could be given a false sense of hope that there is a potential future to the relationship, despite what has occurred.

Then I posted a link to the stats of abusive relationships being more likely to turn towards more serious violence.

[gotbushels]

Oh okay!      I was thinking you meant something along those lines in the discussion.

but to put my own view on it; I got the impression that Randi's book made staying in a physically abusive relationship an option. Due to the part "should you choose to stay".

Hmm okay. I'm not here to take sides on the discussion, I think people have contributed some good and fitting points--I want to help to support it.

I think I was in a physically abusive relationship. To share concisely; my ex punched me in the face. So with that understanding, I think it might help to see it from a few views. It seems your view is that people shouldn't be told there's hope in staying. I don't discount that, and when blood is streaming out of one's face, I'm right with you there. If I could go back and speak to myself at that point, I'd be yelling "what's wrong with you? she punched you! get out of there!" From what I can recall, the authors did provide the choice to stay or go. My personal experience from the reading was there's hope in either choice I pick.

Whether or not hope was put forward by Mason and Kreger, I think the feeling of hope is experienced differently by different people. Some people feel it, some people don't, and from the author's point of view, it might help to give allowance that every individual is going to experience that hope differently. You and I may have felt it similarly on the topic of abuse; others may not have, and that's all OK.

Moving forward on the resource, I read the part about abuse as a choice. You can leave, you can stay. To me, when I feel someone is providing me with room to make my own decision, it helps me to make that decision. I don't like people making important decisions for me.

I do think you and Randi are often on the same page with the resources. One recurring issue in my relationship had a suggestion from Randi and Shirley that's consistent with the message "review if you want to be in the relationship", rather than the authors giving false hope. In the "everything is your fault" vignette, option D was explained with

D. No one can stay very long in a relationship where one person runs over another one and keep their self-esteem.

So that's one example to me where Randi and Shirley provide hope more in the choice. My personal experience living this vignette is that, look, OK, there's this staying and this leaving--be aware this is what you're doing if you want to stay. There may be hope there if you want. There's also hope in leaving. I eventually picked leaving; given this lighthouse of info, not all us 'boats' make that pick to leave, and that's fine.

I felt that a victim reading this could be given a false sense of hope that there is a potential future to the relationship, despite what has occurred.

Well yes, me too about the sense of hope that the relationship can continue if I want. It can feel frustrating because when the relationship is so bad, I'd feel ambivalence about there being hope too. It was such a complicated relationship.

I hope this helps.   

[JNChell]

Cromwell, a legitimate T would support and help you as long as you were open to the exchange. I’m going to take us back to PSI. You were there briefly and became overwhelmed. There’s something there that needs to be hashed out. Are you ready, or do you need time?

[Cromwell]

Cromwell, a legitimate T would support and help you as long as you were open to the exchange. I’m going to take us back to PSI. You were there briefly and became overwhelmed. There’s something there that needs to be hashed out. Are you ready, or do you need time?

Thanks JNChell. 

I will when I finish my exams. Im going to need to compartmentalise all this and put pause on the therapy until then. Ive got supportive family and friends, I think I need to cocoon myself from anyone else for awhile, it is triggers in relationships, even new people- triggers when I visit here. Im going to take a break for a month or two to see how it works out. Thanks for being there for me this past week it has pulled me through.

[Harri]

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