I just feel so incredibly lonely and betrayed.

[blackorchid]

for some reason I can't access the site on my phone, due to the location denied and I don't have a VPN installed on my phone so I havent been able to read your reponses but I will do. Thank you for them

I'm just heading out now.

He has been messaging me all day. He has had a gigantic tattoo put on his leg. This coming from the man who hates tattoos and is very vocal to me about them every time a friend gets one.  He has messaged me 6 times asking if I like it and what I think. I just finished work now after a lonnnnnggg day, so I haven't responded.  I'm so shocked that he even got one. But especially one so big. He really isn't acting like himself anymore at all.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I would suggest "I'll have to give that some thought.." as the answer.

Perhaps follow up with.."I'm going to walk (dogs name)  and give time.  It would be nice to catch up if you can join me."

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I went with..


I'm shocked...Are you happy with it? Do you like it?

And I got

"you are controlling me. always" "I always wanted a tattoo"


so many people have messaged me today, shocked...saying he has lost his mind or something similar... and all saying that he hates tattoos why would he do this...his best friends' all messaging the same...


but yeah of course it comes back to me "controlling him" again. sure.

[formflier]

No need to argue about "controlling".

Did you invite him to a neutral location or dog walk?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

No need to argue about "controlling".

Did you invite him to a neutral location or dog walk?

Best,

FF

I just replied, would you be shocked if i got a tattoo.  He said yes. Then I tried to neutralize the tone and asked if it hurt... no reply.

What benefit is there to you and the relationship for you to spend time around him (in your home or out) when he is drunk?

Back to the most recent story.  Did he call you before he spent all that money on a taxi to make sure you are home?  Did he ask if this is ok?

Best,

FF

there's no benefit to him spending time with him when his drunk as he's too drunk too actually have a meaningful talk and he's just passing out, waking up and leaving.


He send whatsapp messages that made no sense just letters. I replied what? one had random letters then 30 mins than random letters, i asked what.

"im dont der nk qnd i wm coming" was when i guessed he was coming and asked where are you and got a reply of wait

"in cinonf" i asked what and where are you. no reply 5 mins later the doorbell rang.

In the morning he did hand me some euros towards paying me back, saying if I don't take it he'll only spend it.

[blackorchid]

For this relationship to change you have to be the one to change.     You have to be the one to change it.   

He isn't going to do it.   This is not 100% on him.   You are going to have to take ownership of better behavior and better choices.

If you make better choices and model better behavior he may follow you down the path to a more stable relationship.    He may not.    That is a risk you'll have to take.   if you keep doing the same things you have been doing,... you are going to get the same treatment you have always gotten.

I understand that but I honestly don't know how to do that when our interaction is so erratic. I'm trying to find the time to read things but this week my schedule is insane and I don't even have time to get my workouts in.

He shows up very drunk.    This is a reoccurring pattern.   He has been drinking to excess for a while now.    You've fought about this in the recent past.   Drinking is hard for you because of your family history.    Still you are more concerned about the money he spent on the taxi than on your comfort and safety in your own home?    Can you help me understand why his decision to drink and spend an obscene amount of money on a taxi means you should spoken too and treated in ways that most would consider abuse?   

I've never thought of him turning up drunk as abuse so that's something to think about.

I guess I feel like I have to let him in.  That it's my responsibility. After all there is also noone is the city for him.

You've been very good at describing what he has said and done.   very thorough at describing what he is thinking..  I am still interested in hearing what you think and what you are doing.     You are part of this dynamic also and what you feel and what you think are worth advocating for.     If you can't advocate for yourself here, on these boards where it is safe... you'll have a harder time doing it with him.   Consider this practice for doing it later in real life.

What are you doing to take care of yourself?    It takes a great deal of emotional strength to be in a relationship with a pwBPD and not be injured by it.    What are you doing to build or rebuild your emotional strength?

Honestly, my thoughts and feelings change multiple times throughout the day. I hate seeing him so drunk and passed out because it must mean he's suffering and is pain. Yet, I also feel disgust at seeing him so drunk.  As I have said it is a very sensitive topic and it's wrapped up in feelings of my dad and not being able to "save him". I'm trying to keep my routine going. working, working out, reading, zoom chats etc. The football definitely helped with keeping me busy and occupied in the evening

blackorchid I am going to speak plainly.     Just like we talked about upstream you are responsible for 100% of your 50% of the relationship.    If you allow him into the house very drunk, if you engage with him when he asks if you have been with other men, if you cuddle with him on the sofa before he passes out... then... lets be honest...you have a role in what happens too.    Can you agree with that?

Yes, I agree with that but abandonment issues are so big for him, I feel like turning him away would only exacerbate things and lead to more distance. That's why I let him in.

If you want to see him when he isn't drunk and abusive, why not take FF advice and ask to spend time with the dog.   at a neutral place... some place in public where better behavior can occur?    if you want better behavior you will have to model it and create opportunities for it to happen.     What did you think was going to happen when he showed up drunk?    Did you think anything positive was going to occur from that?

'ducks

I didn't think anything positive would occur.  But if he has split me back maybe it helps him in some way by coming. I don't know.

I'm going to leave messaging him for today and suggest to meet on Monday or whatever day off he has next week. It's our dogs birthday and yes, I'm that person who makes a bday cake for the dog  so I'll ask him to walk on that day...

[formflier]

In the morning he did hand me some euros towards paying me back, saying if I don't take it he'll only spend it.

Hey...so you guys were physically together or did he send this to you electronically?

Has he ever sent you "nonsense" messages before?   just letters and stuff?  How has that played out before?

What do you think would happen if you didn't response to gibberish and ONLY responded to a kind/respectful message from him?

I'm curious about your thoughts about inviting him to a neutral location.  Have you tried that yet? 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Sorry this was saturday morning after he showed up Friday night drunk.

No, he hasn't sent messages like that before. I guess that he was too drunk to type (?)

I think I would be waiting a long time for a kind message atm tbh. After the tattoo messages yesterday I'm going to wait a couple of days and then message him

[babyducks]

I've never thought of him turning up drunk as abuse so that's something to think about.

this list is from another spot on this site.    this is emotional abuse:

EMOTIONAL ABUSE
Also called "Psychological or Verbal Abuse"
- false accusations
- name calling and finding fault
- verbal threats
- playing "mind games"
- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy
- humiliating victim
- overpowering victim's emotions
- disbelieving victim
- bringing up past issues
- inappropriate expression of jealousy
- degrading victim
- putting victim down, not defending her
- blame the victim for things
- turning the situation against the victim
- laughing in victim's face
- silence, ignoring victim
- refusing to do things with or for victim
- always getting own way
- neglecting victim
- pressuring victim
- expecting victim to conform to a role
- comparing victim to others
- suggested involvement with other women or men
- making victim feel guilty
- using certain mannerisms or behavior as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)
- threatening to get drunk or stoned unless... .
- manipulation
- starting arguments
- withholding affection
- holding grudges and not really forgiving
- lying
- threatening to leave or commit suicide
- treating victim as a child
- having double standards for victim
- saying one thing and meaning another
- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities
- not keeping commitments
- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office
- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean
- preventing victim from getting or taking a job
- threatening her with anything (words, objects)
- refusing to deal with issues
- minimizing or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments
- demanding an account of victim's time/routine
- taking advantage of victim's fear of something
- making her do illegal things

I guess I feel like I have to let him in.  That it's my responsibility. After all there is also noone is the city for him.

these are all judgement calls.   and one size does not fit all.     if you feel he is too drunk to be on the street alone than allowing him to sleep it off is one thing.    engaging with him so that he falls asleep on your lap is entirely different.  I would suggest the message that sends is 'its okay to show up drunk'.   

boundaries aren't just physical things.   they can be verbal things.   

I won't discuss this until you are sober.
Its not okay for you to be here this intoxicated.
Its worrying that you are drinking this much.

when he asks if you have been with other men, and then refuses to believe you - don't follow him down this rabbit hole.   

I'm not answering that question, its offensive.
I refuse to allow this type of discussion.

you are not going to have good interactions with him until you stop having poor/bad interactions with him.

The football definitely helped with keeping me busy and occupied in the evening

I was so disappointed in the Italy/England game.   I don't think England played so well.

Yes, I agree with that but abandonment issues are so big for him, I feel like turning him away would only exacerbate things and lead to more distance. That's why I let him in.

Its not your job to manage his feelings.    You can consider them of course but your feelings matter too.    You might think about putting yourselves in a better position for success to happen.    and by success I mean a more reasonable productive interaction.     

[formflier]

Can you give me a sense of how much of your communication happens in person compared to how much happens verbally on the phone (or other device where you can hear each other speaking)..compared to text messages (and the like) and/or email?

I'm getting the sense that the "vast majority" of your relationship is based on text type of communications, is that right?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

this list is from another spot on this site.    this is emotional abuse:

EMOTIONAL ABUSE
Also called "Psychological or Verbal Abuse"
- false accusations
- name calling and finding fault
- verbal threats
- playing "mind games"
- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy
- humiliating victim
- overpowering victim's emotions
- disbelieving victim
- bringing up past issues
- inappropriate expression of jealousy
- degrading victim
- putting victim down, not defending her
- blame the victim for things
- turning the situation against the victim
- laughing in victim's face
- silence, ignoring victim
- refusing to do things with or for victim
- always getting own way
- neglecting victim
- pressuring victim
- expecting victim to conform to a role
- comparing victim to others
- suggested involvement with other women or men
- making victim feel guilty
- using certain mannerisms or behavior as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)
- threatening to get drunk or stoned unless... .
- manipulation
- starting arguments
- withholding affection
- holding grudges and not really forgiving
- lying
- threatening to leave or commit suicide
- treating victim as a child
- having double standards for victim
- saying one thing and meaning another
- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities
- not keeping commitments
- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office
- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean
- preventing victim from getting or taking a job
- threatening her with anything (words, objects)
- refusing to deal with issues
- minimizing or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments
- demanding an account of victim's time/routine
- taking advantage of victim's fear of something
- making her do illegal things


these are all judgement calls.   and one size does not fit all.     if you feel he is too drunk to be on the street alone than allowing him to sleep it off is one thing.    engaging with him so that he falls asleep on your lap is entirely different.  I would suggest the message that sends is 'its okay to show up drunk'.   

thank you baby ducks'.  We were sat next to each other on the sofa and he just passed out his upper body landed in my lap. He was saying he was feeling really ill and I was asking what he had drank. He was trying to order food online. He got angry when I asked what/how much he had drank. I think his drinking is out of control now.

boundaries aren't just physical things.   they can be verbal things.   

I won't discuss this until you are sober.
Its not okay for you to be here this intoxicated.
Its worrying that you are drinking this much.

when he asks if you have been with other men, and then refuses to believe you - don't follow him down this rabbit hole.   

I'm not answering that question, its offensive.
I refuse to allow this type of discussion.

you are not going to have good interactions with him until you stop having poor/bad interactions with him.

Ok I like these responses.  I'll use them thank you, especially the drunk ones. And that makes perfect sense about the interactions.

I was so disappointed in the Italy/England game.   I don't think England played so well.

Me too. I was so shocked with the last penalty, I was holding hope till the end...but not to be. They def didn't play well enough, they just didn't seem to be in it. Here's hoping for the World Cup...

Its not your job to manage his feelings.    You can consider them of course but your feelings matter too.    You might think about putting yourselves in a better position for success to happen.    and by success I mean a more reasonable productive interaction.     

Yes, I'm working on that and doing my daily things to keep me grounded and steady. I've planned to focus more on me and to make sure I eat. When I'm stressed I tend not to eat and this, together with a health scare for my mum, me unable to fly home and a heavy workload means I haven't been great on that front. So that's my plan for this week.

[blackorchid]

Can you give me a sense of how much of your communication happens in person compared to how much happens verbally on the phone (or other device where you can hear each other speaking)..compared to text messages (and the like) and/or email?

I'm getting the sense that the "vast majority" of your relationship is based on text type of communications, is that right?

Best,

FF

It's pretty much all on whatsapp now. Daytime will be about bills/house etc. Nighttime I miss the dog what are you doing etc. Either can be a random did you pack my things, which I had today but havent repsonded.

I dont know the exact details as my mum is very upset. But it seems he was very nasty to her last night. He told her that he didn't care about her. But she's not telling me what was said.
He added to the message today, before I'd spoken to my mum how is your mum? I said she's not good she found out yesterday she now needs an endoscopy and biopsy

He responded an hour later, in which time I had spoken to my mum. "I spoke with her very bad yesterday. Please say sorry to her".

At the moment I'm too angry to reply. He should apologize himself and I shouldn't need to make that clear.  At 20:30 he has messaged asking what my plans are for tonight.

I was just walking in the door and haven't responded. Came on here instead. 

[blackorchid]

Actually I would be interested to know the time that they spoke.


As he messaged me ar 10:30 last night asking me what I was doing. I said nothing. Then he asked how my mum was.  I said she's stressed and worried waiting for test results.  He asked again, why she isn't messaging him. I said shes too worried about her tests.  I asked how his mum was.  Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it. He said he was drinking. He asked me again what I was doing. I responded and all of a sudden the tone changed. We had been messaging on/off for 1.5 hours. He told me to shut up..

I'm betting he thinks I asked my mum to message him and then got angry?

[formflier]

So...how did the communications go when you asked him to apologize to your Mom for being nasty to her (by his own admission..right?)

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

yes by his own admission.

I havent responded yet.

He messaged me a few times asking what I was doing and he will come to stay tongiht.  when I didnt answer he put maybe,

He didn't show up anyway

[babyducks]

As he messaged me ar 10:30 last night asking me what I was doing. I said nothing. Then he asked how my mum was.  I said she's stressed and worried waiting for test results.  He asked again, why she isn't messaging him. I said shes too worried about her tests.  I asked how his mum was.  Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it. He said he was drinking. He asked me again what I was doing. I responded and all of a sudden the tone changed. We had been messaging on/off for 1.5 hours. He told me to shut up..

let's step back and look at the over all focus of his message here.     try to step back and look at this from a 20,000 foot elevation.

this message is all about him.    why isn't your mum messaging?    what do you think about my tattoo?    He's drinking.   this is Me Me Me Me.   very self focused without much self awareness.  this is attention seeking behavior.    his tone probably changed when he did not feel enough attention was being paid to Him.  or when he became drunk enough to get angry.   

As he messaged me ar 10:30 last night asking me what I was doing. I said nothing.

did I misunderstand?   I thought you said you have been very busy and very tired and having trouble sleeping?   but its okay to stay up texting with him?    how does that work exactly?

Then he asked how my mum was.  I said she's stressed and worried waiting for test results.  He asked again, why she isn't messaging him. I said shes too worried about her tests. 

this isn't about your mum. (sorry to hear she has a medical thing going on)   this is about him not getting enough attention.  don't JADE.   hand this back to him to deal with:
'we've talked about this - what are you concerned about?'
'what exactly do you think is going on with my mum?'
'why don't you reach out to her yourself?'
and now that he has been nasty to her:
'I think the apology would mean more coming from you.'
'I think you should handle this yourself - I don't know what was said.'

Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it.

attention seeking.    pwBPD require a highly validating environment where they feel seen and heard.    how did you validate any part of this text exchange.

He said he was drinking. He asked me again what I was doing. I responded and all of a sudden the tone changed. We had been messaging on/off for 1.5 hours. He told me to shut up..

when he told you he was drinking was that your cue to exit the text exchange in a productive way?       was there a place you can look back and identify a better moment to leave on a positive note?   and what did you say when he told you to shut up?   in that long list of emotional abuse I posted upstream was this one:
- starting arguments
was he starting an argument when the told you to shut up?    what were you discussing when the tone changed?   do you think you deserve to be told to shut up?   (for what its worth - I don't)

[blackorchid]

let's step back and look at the over all focus of his message here.     try to step back and look at this from a 20,000 foot elevation.

this message is all about him.    why isn't your mum messaging?    what do you think about my tattoo?    He's drinking.   this is Me Me Me Me.   very self focused without much self awareness.  this is attention seeking behavior.    his tone probably changed when he did not feel enough attention was being paid to Him.  or when he became drunk enough to get angry.   

I didn't see it from that angle but now, I totally see it. Thank you. Yes, he is totally self absorbed right now. Also could be why he reverted to "you're controlling me" when I responded to the tattoo (?)

did I misunderstand?   I thought you said you have been very busy and very tired and having trouble sleeping?   but its okay to stay up texting with him?    how does that work exactly?

My days here are loonng, part of the reason I'm so tired. I got home at  20:30, cooked some food, walked the dog at around 21:45 (due to the heat and humidity I have to walk her very late at night and then early in the morning), so I was just getting back in the house.

this isn't about your mum. (sorry to hear she has a medical thing going on)   this is about him not getting enough attention.  don't JADE.   hand this back to him to deal with:
'we've talked about this - what are you concerned about?'
'what exactly do you think is going on with my mum?'
'why don't you reach out to her yourself?'
and now that he has been nasty to her:
'I think the apology would mean more coming from you.'
'I think you should handle this yourself - I don't know what was said.'

So does he want attention from my mum too? I've spoken with his sister this week, neither his mum, brother nor dad are talking to him. They wouldn't explain to me why. So he is alienating himself from everyone I guess.  I will try those responses. Thank you.

I really hope she will be ok, she's found a lump and she's waiting for tests and biopsies now. So I really have enough on my plate without him.

Quote from: blackorchid on July 14, 2021, 01:08:35 PM
Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it.

attention seeking.    pwBPD require a highly validating environment where they feel seen and heard.    how did you validate any part of this text exchange.

How would I validate the tattoo?

so, it's on his calf.  Full calf... a boy walking along a railroad track carrying a football and wearing a cap (it comes up in a google search). On the child's right leg there is the shadow of the same tattoo... and the shirt says no.10, his number.

I asked what made him pick it: he liked it, everybody likes it. I asked if the kid has the same tattoo on his leg, he said yes, I asked if that was his idea, he said yes, it was a good idea. I asked if it was painful and he said yes but it's ok now.


I guess that this is all about his regrets about his football career, his inner child, broken dreams...

I know from his work friend that he is now living in the work accommodation and his roommates are the tattoo artists in the hotel... They did it for him "from night till morning whilst they were all drinking"
This then made perfect sense to me as to why he has it. He tends to be easily influenced by the people around him when he is like this and acts like they act. So, he is in a group of tattoo artists... of course he gets a tattoo. My heart actually sinks at this...he'll be covered in them.  They gave him a gigantic discount cos it was off the books from 3000tl down to 450tl.

Like with the incident at work and when he started hanging around with the new barman.  It was during our 17 day lockdown in May.  The hotel owner's family (and all the rich of Turkey) checked into hotels to be free during lockdown...

The hotel owner's family were coming to him for private lessons...to the whole sport department...but not paying for the lessons...after all they're relatives, so entitled right? (turkish mentality). He was coming home every day annoyed and tired.  Which is fair no one wants to work for free. I understand that...

However, this new barman thought that it was completely out of order and unjust that he wasn't getting paid. And so started slipping him bottles full of drink. He would empty a water bottle and fill it with vodka, give him cans of redbull and tell him to put it in his backpack. I wondered where it was coming from.

One evening I was on zoom and he was on his way home, he messaged me to ask if I like Jagermeister and if there were any redbulls left. I responded I'm teaching.  As he came home, I finished. Just as he was opening the fridge I walked into the kitchen... he was putting a glass soda bottle with a loose cap into the fridge. I said hi and why were you asking about Jagermeister, you don't even like it, did a guest give you it (sometimes they tip with bottles of alcohol). Then he told me all about the plan the barman had made, how he deserves to be paid and this is his way of being paid..How clever is he? he asked me.

I told him no. It's stupid. If anyone sees what you're doing you'll both be sacked. I think the whole sports department should talk to the manager and say how much you've been working and that you should be paid. I bet the owner has no idea what his relatives are doing ( which he did and then got paid)

However, they had now found a system to get drinks and so they continued. Not every day but often enough... This was part of my frustration with him. You are so so lucky to still have job in the pandemic, especially in tourism don't risk it. What are you doing?

(as im typing this i'm seeing a huge correlation with this and the timing of our argument...lockdown ended 18th may and we argued 26th may)

(nb alcohol is ridiculously expensive here and always increasing in price)

It was this new friend who told him to leave  me...


His assistant manager has caught him last week drinking whiskey out of a coffee cup. When he disciplined him, he thought that he was only angry with him because of me and kept asking have you spoke to her? stop overreacting, I know this isn't because of the drink, it's because of her...you're taking her side.

They are really close friends, so this time he didn't report it. But he won't help him or cover for him again and if anyone else catches him, he's on his own.

when he told you he was drinking was that your cue to exit the text exchange in a productive way?       was there a place you can look back and identify a better moment to leave on a positive note?   and what did you say when he told you to shut up?   in that long list of emotional abuse I posted upstream was this one:
- starting arguments
was he starting an argument when the told you to shut up?    what were you discussing when the tone changed?   do you think you deserve to be told to shut up?   (for what its worth - I don't)

No I didn't deserve to be told to shut up. Not at all.
I guess in hindsight that was a cue to exit the conversation

[babyducks]

Also could be why he reverted to "you're controlling me" when I responded to the tattoo (?)

pwBPD do not have a fully formed strong sense of self.   that's why they are easily influenced by people around them.  what that means is that the words 'agree to disagree' don't exist for them.   difference of opinion doesn't work for them.    seeing things from a different perspective is foreign.     pwBPD tend to want to merge into an amoeba like oneness with those closest  to them.     if you don't find the tattoo as important as he does... the unstated mind set is we must agree, we must be the same,   we must see things the same way or else this is bad you are trying to control me.

My days here are loonng, part of the reason I'm so tired.

texting while tired is probably not a good idea.     should you put a boundary around how late you will answer texts?   

So does he want attention from my mum too?

I would guess that as a highly sensitive person his feelings were hurt that she wasn't contacting him the way she normally does.  a long time ago I was told that my pwBPD needs and wants would always come first to them.   and that my needs and wants would only matter so long as they matched with hers.    which I found to be very true.   
 

How would I validate the tattoo? 

you don't have to validate the tattoo but the feelings around it.
I can see this means a lot to you.
It seems like this has a lot of significance, what means the most to you?
I remember the number 10 was your number.   

as a reminder:   this is about the feelings not the facts.

However, they had now found a system to get drinks and so they continued. Not every day but often enough... This was part of my frustration with him.

are there al-anon meetings near you?

His assistant manager has caught him last week drinking whiskey out of a coffee cup. When he disciplined him, he thought that he was only angry with him because of me and kept asking have you spoke to her? stop overreacting, I know this isn't because of the drink, it's because of her...you're taking her side.

how do you know this?    I am assuming you heard it from the assistant manager?    and what do you think this outburst tells you about his state of mind right now?   

your bf wants to drink.   he thinks he is entitled to drink.    its part of his 'pay' for working at the hotel.   he and his buddy have figured out this clever plan to 'get what is owed to them' and 'beat the system'.    they are pulling one over on the man.   you think this is 'stupid'... you agree with the man.  you are controlling.   he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.      you disagree so clearly you have to be wrong.   as a pwBPD he can't accept or tolerate the idea that he did or is doing anything wrong.   he would rather double down on his activities than admit he might have made a mistake.    to a person with BPD making a mistake means they are a complete failure and shouldn't exist any longer.     this 'clever' plan to get what is owed to them,... something that is expensive ... shows how special he is, and as a pwBPD he needs to be special.

again ... is there al-anon where you are?

'ducks

[blackorchid]

pwBPD do not have a fully formed strong sense of self.   that's why they are easily influenced by people around them.  what that means is that the words 'agree to disagree' don't exist for them.   difference of opinion doesn't work for them.    seeing things from a different perspective is foreign.     pwBPD tend to want to merge into an amoeba like oneness with those closest  to them.     if you don't find the tattoo as important as he does... the unstated mind set is we must agree, we must be the same,   we must see things the same way or else this is bad you are trying to control me.

So is there something I should reply when he talks about me controlling him? This has been a common line since the initial arguement.  And actually everytime he goes like this...

I would guess that as a highly sensitive person his feelings were hurt that she wasn't contacting him the way she normally does.  a long time ago I was told that my pwBPD needs and wants would always come first to them.   and that my needs and wants would only matter so long as they matched with hers.    which I found to be very true.   
 

Yes but unfortunately it leaves us in a hard position. My mum doesn't believe anything is wrong with him and he is just a nasty person, this has now confirmed it to her

you don't have to validate the tattoo but the feelings around it.
I can see this means a lot to you.
It seems like this has a lot of significance, what means the most to you?
I remember the number 10 was your number.   

as a reminder:   this is about the feelings not the facts.

Ok if he brings it up again I'll remember that. Thank you. I guess I let my feelings and shock block the lessons I know on validation and everything. I don't know why but him having a tattoo has upset me so much, as I know this isn't him. As I said when I learned that he was living with tattoo artists the why became clear. He's engulfed with them.

are there al-anon meetings near you?

Nope I just searched again in case I missed something.  Looks like AA was here up to
2019... I can see about an online group. To be honest it's something I struggle with because of mu family history and the thought of a group makes me anxious.  But if you think it will be useful here I can try to find one, the time differences didn't quite line up but next week is holiday here.

how do you know this?    I am assuming you heard it from the assistant manager?    and what do you think this outburst tells you about his state of mind right now?   

Yes, I'm friends with him too and he has been checking in to make sure I am ok. He is worried about him but is now loosing his patience with him.  I met him on Monday and we spoke  again on Tuesday.

Well to be it shows that I am still split black and everything in his world that is wrong is due to me. What would you say?
He's definitely still not in a good place.

The friend told pwBPD repeatedly (over the last couple of weeks) that he hasn't spoken to me. He saw his initial anger when the friend suggested that he talk to me to try and help things and so he has decided to tell him that we're not in contact.  He wanted to help because he couldn't understand how he went from dragging him on their break to look at a wedding venue to saying we had a fight, he's not coming home and we're finished.  He constantly tells me it is obvious that he is fighting something within himself ... I haven't spoken to him about BPD.

your bf wants to drink.   he thinks he is entitled to drink.    its part of his 'pay' for working at the hotel.   he and his buddy have figured out this clever plan to 'get what is owed to them' and 'beat the system'.    they are pulling one over on the man.   you think this is 'stupid'... you agree with the man.  you are controlling.   he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.      you disagree so clearly you have to be wrong.   as a pwBPD he can't accept or tolerate the idea that he did or is doing anything wrong.   he would rather double down on his activities than admit he might have made a mistake.    to a person with BPD making a mistake means they are a complete failure and shouldn't exist any longer.     this 'clever' plan to get what is owed to them,... something that is expensive ... shows how special he is, and as a pwBPD he needs to be special.

Ah isn't it crazy how much of that makes sense to be. We haven't spoken about this topic since he left  and obviously I'm not going to bring it up, as he doesn't know that I know the new developments at work...

[babyducks]

I would suggest you work on a SET around the control issue.  Something that says you understand his opinion but that you see it differently.

I remember being shocked by just how much my Ex thought that our opinions should match.    And by just how much she thought I was there to supply a constant amount of attention and support.   According to her I always needed to think about her needs and wants first and foremost.

[blackorchid]

Ok I'll try and work on one.

He's just messaged now: Can I come tonight and drink with you and we can have sex. I missed you. I miss sex with you.  But don't think it means I'm coming back home. I don't want any relationship with anyone.


In past cycles this plays out for a few weeks and then he comes back

[formflier]

Maybe this is a great time to say you would love to see him without drinking.

I don't think you have said it explicitly, so I'll ask.  It sounds like you enjoy his sober company and also his company when "emotionally neutral" (not off on a rant).  Is that right?

Can you think of a time when you enjoy him after he has been drinking?

I would recommend not addressing sex with a yes or no.  You could even make the no drinking thing about you..and invite him along (so less chance of him grabbing onto "she thinks my drinking is bad")

Perhaps  "Would be great to see you, I'm tapped out on drinking and trying to eat and drink healthy here for while.  We could walk fluffy (insert dogs real name) and then enjoy some (insert a healthy meal) together.  If you would rather drink with your buddies I won't be offended."

What do you think about that proposed message.  Do you see the implicit messages you are starting to send.  You and I together = healthy choices/eating/drinking.   If you want to drink..that is apart from me.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Important enough point to separate out.  Many times it's hard to figure out the emotion you are trying to validate in them.  So..what emotion/feeling was involved in the tatoo?  Doesn't sound like he has revealed that so...

  When it doubt use validating questions
 
I would encourage you to read this post, even if you realize you have seen it before...study it.  Write some of your own questions.  We can help.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Ok I'll try and work on one.

He's just messaged now: Can I come tonight and drink with you and we can have sex. I missed you. I miss sex with you.  But don't think it means I'm coming back home. I don't want any relationship with anyone.


In past cycles this plays out for a few weeks and then he comes back

Oh ugh.   Just ugh.

Talk about putting his needs and wants first with no recognition of yours.

What conditions do you want to put around this?

[blackorchid]

Maybe this is a great time to say you would love to see him without drinking.

I don't think you have said it explicitly, so I'll ask.  It sounds like you enjoy his sober company and also his company when "emotionally neutral" (not off on a rant).  Is that right?

Can you think of a time when you enjoy him after he has been drinking?

Yes, that's right and no not when he's been drinking alone. It's never enjoyable being sober around a drunk...

I would recommend not addressing sex with a yes or no.  You could even make the no drinking thing about you..and invite him along (so less chance of him grabbing onto "she thinks my drinking is bad")

Perhaps  "Would be great to see you, I'm tapped out on drinking and trying to eat and drink healthy here for while.  We could walk fluffy (insert dogs real name) and then enjoy some (insert a healthy meal) together.  If you would rather drink with your buddies I won't be offended."

What do you think about that proposed message.  Do you see the implicit messages you are starting to send.  You and I together = healthy choices/eating/drinking.   If you want to drink..that is apart from me.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Thanks FF I like that suggestion, I haven't responded yet... but he has since added he is going to a wedding and will come after that, which will be late, so I don't think a dog walk will be on the cards tonight.

I'm wondering if the wedding was a trigger for him to message me. Our wedding was postponed last year to this August and then I said to cancel it as UK still has Turkey on the red. He was very disappointed with this ( as was I but I am more realistic). His family wanted us to go ahead without my family there, which was a hard no from me.

Maybe I'll tweek your message and add that it'll be late I'm not drinking rn...

Oh ugh.   Just ugh.

Talk about putting his needs and wants first with no recognition of yours.

What conditions do you want to put around this?

Yes, especially as you were just talking about this. Conditions around it tbh I'm not entirely sure, unfortunately this is how it's played out in the past...

Important enough point to separate out.  Many times it's hard to figure out the emotion you are trying to validate in them.  So..what emotion/feeling was involved in the tatoo?  Doesn't sound like he has revealed that so...

  When it doubt use validating questions
 
I would encourage you to read this post, even if you realize you have seen it before...study it.  Write some of your own questions.  We can help.

Best,

FF

I'm just going into lessons so I'll read that this evening thank you FF

[babyducks]

Conditions around it tbh I'm not entirely sure, unfortunately this is how it's played out in the past...

Just because it's played out that way in the past doesn't mean it should go that way again.

Honestly it would probably be better to try a different approach.

I like FF suggestion.    It's mild.    It doesn't add much drama.    It begins to create a boundary around how you will take care of and protect yourself.

[formflier]

So...you also have time to think (and I recommend you do). 

Let's say you make the mild overtures to him that you want time with him if not drinking.  Perhaps he agrees or not.

What EXACTLY are you going to do if he turns up drunk wanting to be let it...even at a really late hour?

What EXACTLY are you going to do if he turns up drunk or not demanding sex?

As I read that, perhaps it would be easier for you to figure out what you are NOT going to do first...then go from there.

It's OK to protect your feelings!

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Thank you FF.He's here I didn't even reply to h;m my mum was spirallling about her gastronomy and biopsy that I didnt get achance to come on here or red what vyou sent ff


this is the most normal I HAVE SEEEN HIM IN 2 months

[formflier]

Has he been drinking?

If not...good time to "plant seeds".

"hey...I really enjoy our time together.  Just us no alcohol."

So sorry about your mom.  Does she have any results or is she in that troubling stage of waiting?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Hi FF, Sorry my last message had so many spelling mistakes, it was a rushed message as he went to the bathroom. Typed far too quickly sorry.

No, he had had a couple of beers at the wedding. But he wasn't drunk


He turned up with one of our favourite takeaways, which is the closest to a caring act he has done in 2 months.

He said that he had wanted to come earlier, it was late when he arrived, but was waiting on a lift from people he had gone there with.

A guest had given him a bottle of very decent whiskey as a tip and he wanted to drink it with me. That also surprised me that he wanted to share it with me and not his new friends  (sidenote, he keeps posting on social media, pics of him with a guest from the hotel, a 19 year old who he keeps calling his "best friend" on the pics, and his girlfriend. FYi he is 37 years old, he has now been banned from the hotel at night and so took them into the city during the week to hang out with them. This seems to be a common theme when he is like this, new friend all young and immediately there are his best friends... has anyone else experienced this?).

I guess I was happy that he actually wanted to do something with me, was very stressed about my mum and so had a drink with him and we ate the food. He was talking about his new plan to move to England... his old teammate is a player at a premier league team and he wants him to help him, asked me if I could help him find the money to do his next level UEFA coaching course.  Kept saying EVERYONE loves his tattoo.  Thank you BabyDucks' because of what you had written earlier that day I was able to see all the Me me me me me-ness in this and so was not sensitive.

We spoke about walking the dog, its her bday tuesday and I said maybe we could rent a car and take her swimming for her bday... he said maybe I'll think about it.

He mentioned again to stay in a hotel together for a couple of days... he did this the first time he showed up weeks ago but then added it was "too late for us now".  This time, he suggested going next weekend, sun mon his days off. I'm trying not to read too much into that as its our anniversary/my bday next week 24/25 and not to get my hopes hinged on it.  Expectation is the source of all disappointment after all.

he still says he doesn't want a relationship with anybody right now. Which is also what I have heard in past cycles at this stage.

He woke in the morning and left the bottle here, saying he would like to come another day to see me and we can drink it then...

He messaged me almost immediately after he left saying can he come tonight. Then around 4:30pm said he was too tired and not feeling well so he will come another time.


 
He has messaged me this morning at almost 10am, saying that he is late to work becgause he overslept and everyone is angry and asked me what I was doing.  Said that he was really tired and drunk ( so another night drinking)...

I wonder what will happen now, his friend the assistant manager told  me if he is late one more time they will sack him...I asked and he didn't have any lessons this morning so at least he didn't have guests waiting for him.


Should I ask him about renting the car tomorrow for the dog?


Mum's in the waiting stage, her appointment is for next Sunday.  She found a lump on her lower left tummy, she's had blood tests and a scan, then a letter came for this.  As the endoscopy is so so much higher than where she feels the lump she has convinced herself it's cancer and it has spread everywhere. She called me as soon as I finished lessons on Friday evening, it was early evening in England but she was already drinking, so there went her great spell of not drinking... and I was on the phone to her all night, reassuring her and trying to tell her to stop drinking and to go to bed. In between her phone calls my aunty was calling me worried about her. So it was def a night.  Yesterday I was too emotionally drained to log on here. Sorry