A discussion about PROJECTION ; its meanings, application, and language.

[Artisan]

Living with a BPD, or with any human, is difficult at times. Especially when somebody doesn't want to own up to their emotional state, or is blind to it.

Projection is a common term on this board, and I see people using it with different intention and having differing meanings behind it.

Please share your ideas, thoughts, understanding and experiences relating to projection so that we can all better learn and understand what projection is, how it functions, how to relate to it and respond, and its impact on yourself or life.

To start, here is my understanding of projection.

A person will place on another or accuse them of the actions or emotional state that has nothing to do with the person it is being directed at, and has everything to do with the person making the accusation.

Hence, a cheater will accuse somebody else of cheating.

A person who is angry will say that the other person is angry, and deny their own anger.

In the relationship with my xBPD she kept accusing me of wanting to Fk strangers, Fk friends, of being abusive, of not being a man, of using her.

I know myself, and none of it was true. At no point in my life have I cheated or wanted to cheat. Even when one of my ex's wanted me to sleep around (she thought it was sexy), I wouldn't. So, my groundwork and self-awareness in this department is rock solid.

It still hurt, and was really confusing. Because rather than working on real life issues, it was a lot of drama about assumptions and nothing real.

The anger was real, because who wants to be kept up until 4 in the morning every other day defending themself over something non-existent.

I get angry, and own the anger, when I think about how most of the fighting was over NOTHING REAL. It was all phantasm. Yet the anger was used by her to justify her projection. (Her: If you weren't a cheater then you wouldn't be angry. Me: THAT IS TRUE AND I AM ANGRY B/c WE ARE FIGHTING OVER SOMETHING NOT REAL AND IT HURTS TO FACE CONSTANT FALSE ACCUSATIONS. I FEELAS IF YOU DO NOT TRUST ME OR RESPECT ME. Her: I trust and respect you and love you. ME: THEN WHY ACCUSE?)

I lost trust in her because, in my experience, only a person who cheats is going to accuse people of cheating. It's happened to me before, it has happened to people in my life. It has probably happened to you as well.

I also lost trust in her because there was no way to feel safe. At any moment, in private or public, she could start screaming at me b/c there are other humans on this planet that have vaginas.

So the result of projection was a lack of trust and a development of unstable ground and insecurity.

It also erroded my self-esteem because I tried to accept her perspective and understand where she was coming from. Which means I put myself down, to try and nurture her. That is an olympic approach to destroy ones own self-esteem.

[tim_tom]

I think it's about seeing your on flaws in other people, real or imagined. I guess the same could be true for positives?

I honestly don't know how much of this went on in my relationship. At this point, i don't know where her dysfunction ended and mine began.

[enlighten me]

Its also difficult to separate projection from insecurity.

Just because they accuse you of cheating may not mean they are but may mean they are worried you will.

[uncrx]

Good point about insecurity Enlighten Me.

My exBPDgf had so much uncertainty in her life that contributed to her insecurity. Her sense of entitlement failed to compensate for things that were not just given to her. I often felt her resentment towards me because my life was so much more functional and secure and that there always seemed to be opportunities for me ... .which I created.

[Fluff]

As I understood it, projection is nothing more but the assumptions you make about others based on yourself.

[tim_tom]

Its also difficult to separate projection from insecurity.

Just because they accuse you of cheating may not mean they are but may mean they are worried you will.

yes, that was my first response that I deleted. I don't know if it was control, caring, fear of abandonment, projection... .the rampant jealousy and accusations were toxic, trying to figure out what the root of it now is too much for my fragile mind to work through... Who knows! I'm not even sure she does.

[Loveofhislife]

A way that I think of projective identification is that exbfBPD could be really upset with himself about something (real or imagined)--it might even be something I don't know about. For instance, he was transferred out of his department (Lord only knows why), and he's telling me to stop making him feel bad about it. I'm only making it worse. Heck! I didn't even know about it.

[Fluff]

As I understood it, projection is nothing more but the assumptions you make about others based on yourself.

I want to add that I ended up with this definition of projection, rather than "blame-projection" after reading that we projected onto the pwBPD and they mirrored.

There seems to be two forms of projection? One that we used on them in the idealization phase that they mirrored. And then the blame-projection where the accuse you of what they them selves have done. Or?

[Mutt]

Projection is subconscious and non's do it as well, a pwBPD take it to the extreme. A pwBPD feel shame and guilt and don't want to feel bad. One way to deal with this feelings as a temporary measure is to project. It works but negative feelings come back.

It is attributing an action or undesired emotion on someone else. I called a family justice service agency in Canada yesterday. I had a conversation with an employee. I asked her a question 3 times each time a little differently because she wasn't getting it. She became frustrated and said "You're talking around in circles" and ended the call.

I was asking a question that she couldn't find an answer to and side-stepping or "talking in circles" Projecting.

Who knows she could have been borderline or a non.

[sweetheart]

Hi all,

Projection is one of many defence mechanisms that form part of a child's early emotional development. All defence mechanisms unconsciously protect the child's  ego/self against unwanted and unpleasant thoughts and feelings. The key is that it's unconscious, because when we use projection, and we all do, we have no insight or awareness about what we are actually doing.

Mutts example is really good, because the reply he was given is about the other persons discomfort, but she didn't know that and blamed Mutt.

When someone accuses you of cheating, this might be projection of their insecurity and anxiety about not being good enough for anyone ever. Remember though that that thought and associated feeling is way too unpleasant for them to tolerate, the initial wound too deep, and they don't know why they are doing it, so you bear the brunt of it through accusation.

Also constant accusations of cheating can be attributed to paranoid thinking.

My dBPDh when he is dysregulated calls me mad, abusive, verbally sadistic and so on, initially it was somewhat 'crazy-making' but I accept now that this is because he has never learnt ways of coping with his own negative feelings, so has to push that distress away from him, onto me.

Sometimes therapy will help a person identify that they do this, by addressing the initial trauma/hurt, but it can take a very long time and there are no guarantees.

Remember the projection into you is not always a literal translation from the person projecting, in that accusations of cheating do not mean they are cheating, most likely just paranoid and insecure.

Artisan I just want to say projection can be v v confusing because you will be trying to convince a person that their beliefs about you are not true, when really they have no idea why they are doing it in the first place because they have no integrated sense of self.

[goateeki]

Artisan, first let me say that I feel for you, because we have had similar experiences.  I have always been a bit suspicious of the projection concept, mainly because I don't know how anyone could actually engage in it (as you describe the phenomenon).  In essence, a person engaging in projection assembles an elaborate lie in their head then acts out on it.  Think about it: (1) I am unfaithful, (2) I do not like the fact that I am unfaithful, so I am upset by my own actions, (3) I will use my feeling of upset to strike out at someone, (4) I will strike out as the person I "love."  It's mental abuse, pure and simple.  And it's dishonest.

To help give you some perspective, here are some of the things I've had to endure with my soon-to-be ex wife (diagnosed complex PTSD with borderline traits).

I have picked her up in the car, and she has examined the position of the passenger seat and said "Who were you with?"  She has said this when the seat position has changed and when it has not changed.  She has picked up our daughter's hair from the car and said "Whose hair is this?"  I have pulled up to the house and turned my phone off, placed it in my bag and exited the car. The iphone turning off and bagging procedure took less than one minute. When I walked in, she said "You took ten minutes in the car with your phone. What was that about?"  I have given a mutual friend a lift, and she has screamed at the mutual friend (well, now former) "Stay away from my husband!"

I could go on. 

I don't believe that she has cheated on me, though, unless it is with her friend (a mom at school with whom she is ridiculously close -- this poor woman is her new supply).  It seems plausible to me, as this woman's husband has said to me he has questioned his wife's sexuality, and my soon-to-be ex wife has questioned her sexuality in my presence within the last five months.  So I don't rule out that secretly my wife of 19 years is really into women.

But her mother did carry on a covert affair and then abandoned my wife, my wife's sister, and my wife's father when my wife was just 11 years old.  When she left, she said "I've been having an affair and the sex is great and I'm leaving" and then she walked out.  Fourteen months later, this woman (my wife's mother) was accepted back into the family with no sanction whatsoever.  So I think that this is where it comes from with my wife.  She thinks that covert sexual affairs are taking place everywhere and all the time. 

As far as the accusations of infidelity go, it can't get much worse for me and in my case, there has never been a factual basis for it.  It's pure paranoia and distrust -- distrust that I have not earned.  It's something that hurts me very much.  It sucks.

My fear is that when the reality of divorce starts to sink in, and she sees that she's going to be living in a crappy little apartment and driving the same car for the rest of her life (she's hyper educated and I'm advised that the best she's looking at it a few years of rehabilitative alimony), and that her access to her children will be at a minimum halved, she will try to pull something along the lines of accusing me of touching the kids.  I have zero trust for her.  I have no idea what my post-divorce life is going to look like, but the potential for it being even crazier than the last five months seems real to me.   

[Pingo]

I thought what I was dealing with was paranoia.  My ex would check my texts/fb messages/emails behind my back.  He was jealous and possessive and wanted to control everything.  I am the most trustworthy person you would ever want to meet so I never understood all this and since he was paranoid about a lot of things I just chalked it up to this.  But I always had the feeling that he was secretive and keeping things from me.  But no proof and since I wasn't one to invade his privacy I never knew any different.  Then after we split I found out some stuff about him, secrets he had kept from me, lies, etc.  Now I realise that he had been projecting his own secrecy and lies on me.  This enraged me but helped clear the FOG when I saw this.  A lot of things fell into place. 

[Springle]

I think Mutt is right in that everyone can perform projection.

My non-ex for example said something about me learning to live my life happy without requiring validation from anyone. At the time I pondered it but now I realise he was talking about himself. I may be here on this forum, my head cloudy from my run ins with his new dBPDgf but I've been single well over a year now and by choice, I've been flattered and ask out quite a bit, been on a number of dates but you know what I have never settled (none of the guys I have seen have been right for me) and I have done my own thing. I do get lonely on occasion but I certainly do not need validation from anyone to be happy in my own skin.

Where as he ran into, excuse me, the first pair of legs that willingly opened for him. Which happened to belong to a mentally unstable older woman, with a bad track record and someone he had told me, on several occasions, he thought was bat___ crazy and not someone to get too involved with. I only had the revelation recently that it was him he was talking about, he has never gone more than a few months in his life without some kind of fling. He needs to learn how to live life without the validation of another person, a woman to give him an ego boost and value because in actuality his self esteem is very low, why would a confident, self assured man, knowingly, get with someone like that? Rather than man up, look inside himself and resolve his issues he just decides to dump them on others, like me, and run away... .into the arms of another woman he MUST save.

What I am saying is everyone has issues but it's up to you to work on them and become a better you, those who are too scared or even weak to self assess, just refuse to believe they are human and even have problems; they suggest it is someone else's problem with them.

[Blimblam]

Projection has many levels

At first I understood it as they projected their shame onto me and I identified with it. Yet this seemed to fall short of explaining what actually occurred. 

When I began to look into projective identification and the concept of being projected INTO things began to become more clear

Here is a YouTube video with a brief explanation of projective identification.

www.youtu.be/Nloftn8XJH0

Projective identification takes into account the deep emotional connection two people can have and how you can just know what the other person is feeling. 

At times I felt guilt and shame for letting someone hurt me so badly.

What it comes down to though is just the act of connecting to someone with BPD and not leaving durring the devaluing it was almost inevitable to get hurt the way I did. 

The reality is they were reliving a deep seated traumatic memory and it wasn't real.  What happened is because my connection to my ex was so deep I felt everything the fear the confusion the truama but so much of it hit me in an unconcious level and it activated my own truamas.  It is so hard to make sense of because it is presented as if the issue is some trigger or imagined slight by my ex. 

It's like she was acting out the roles of a nightmare and did whatever it took to trigger me on an unconcious level to fall into the roles of her internal drama.

This might not be a clear explanation.

It's very complex and something I am working on trying to explain.

[Blimblam]

I'm actually watching this movie called pacific rim a sort of cheesy scifi movie.  They actually allude to projective identification and the collective unconcious in it.

[Loveofhislife]

Blim Blam--please keep writing here--it makes sense to me--I know he "unearthed" parts of me that for decades had been dormant; I heard myself wail crying--I heard myself screaming and begging for him to stop emotionally torturing me. I caught myself several times acting SO borderline; I truly felt infected--I was married and stable for decades; my resume educationally and professionally is damn impressive, but alas! He awakened something deep within: a longing, a loneliness, a forgotten, and unwanted, an annoyance--all the things that drove me to perfectionism and uber achiever--now the pendulum was swinging the other way: pain, fear--he excavated it all. Then he left the excavation site. Thank you exbfBPD.

[Blimblam]

The nightmare ritual they are reliving over and over is something archaic that has been presented in allegory over and over for thousands of years.

We clearly identified within our exs the damsel in distress. We felt like her prince their to save the day.

I found a cartoon on YouTube that portrays it pretty well.

The waif of Persephone www.youtu.be/CsKTzqWNe-g

Once understood it can begin to make sense that it trully was nothing personal.

Notice in the cartoon the Sherlock pipe indicating the "mystery"

When Persephone is speaking it is a record playing.

Borderlines are traumatized and the boundaries between the collective unconcious and their person and the material world don't exist.  

It feels personal because we identify with the timeless drama they relive over and over through the filters of who we think we are and our own memories.

[Harri]

Projective identification has to do with the person who is doing the projection.

Projection:

They (person A) has some aspect of their self that is tied to past trauma and they can not accept it.  They then attribute that to another person (person B).  

Projective Identification:takes that process one step further.

Person A sees that projected attribute as belonging to person B and then confronts person B and accuses them of having this particular emotion/attribute/etc.- example anger

Person B in turn gets angry/frustrated at being told they are angry when in fact they weren't (at least not until person A started saying they were angry)

Person A then reads this anger from person B as being the anger they originally projected and they then use that to firm up their belief that person B was angry.

That is the end of projective identification.

When people talk about the deep connection they had with the pwBPD, it is true, there often is a deep emotional bond.  It is also true that some of us are very good at reading others.  But in the case of projective identification, person A in not actually injecting anything into person Bs subconscious and forcing them to act or feel what person A does or feels.

In the case where person B *believes* they are the angry one, it is due to poor internal boundaries and it is something beyond projective identification.  I am not sure but I think it is tied to emotional contagion Here is a link www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_contagion

I just wanted to mention this because i am seeing several posts that attribute an ability to BPDs to be able to do some kind of mind control thing.  That is a fallacy.  They can be quite good at twisting, projecting and all that.  The problem comes in when we have poor boundaries and buy into their distorted reality.  

The example I think of is what my mother did to me (she is uBPD):

She was full of rage.  I believe it scared her and she could not handle seeing it in herself.  As a result, she projected that onto me and attributed that anger/rage to me.  She would tell me I was angry, she was afraid of me and feared that I would hurt her.  I responded by feeling hurt and I got angry because who wants to be told they are angry when they are not.  My mom saw my angry response and that then became her "ah Ha, I'm right moment" and proceeded to 'protect herself' against me.  END OF PROJECTIVE IDENTIFICATION

What happened then is that I internalized the belief that I was angry, full of rage, capable of hurting my mother---> this happened because I had poor (or really still developing) boundaries.  If my mother had tried that with someone not so close to her and someone who had good boundaries, they would have told her she was crazy and walked away.

[Loveofhislife]

The nightmare ritual they are reliving over and over is something archaic that has been presented in allegory over and over for thousands of years.

Want to venture a guess as to the one piece of allegorical theater with which he could most closely relate? PHANTOM OF THE OPERA

[Loveofhislife]

Harri--agree and check out transference and counter transference; it's how the real pro therapists are trained. Boundaries? Absolutely. Because, I believe they do TRANSFER their horrors into us--whether or not we choose to dance is either our choice (in my case) or we are innocent bystanders: many on this board who had no idea what was happening to them. Did our pwBPD know? Maybe or maybe not--but it took two people to dance this dance. I really see what Blim Blam is saying--this is their role. What is ours? My poor boundaries and big ego landed me in this mess. But in the end; I will count it as a blessing.

[Blimblam]

Hari

In projective identification they trigger into by activating archetypes within the collector unconcious.  We identify these archetypes through the experiences of our own memories also.

I've also read a more scientific neuroscience explanation of it that was someone's masters thesis I think on the web of how it works as well. It has been described as an intra psychic connection.

The issue is we are Largely impart stuck on the paradigm of viewing reality through the lens influenced heavily by the Victorian age.  

The type of projecting a borderline does is much more than verbal it is the nonverbal that triggers unconcious parts of our brain activating it on an unconcious level.

[Blimblam]

The nightmare ritual they are reliving over and over is something archaic that has been presented in allegory over and over for thousands of years.

Want to venture a guess as to the one piece of allegorical theater with which he could most closely relate? PHANTOM OF THE OPERA

I would have to get reacquainted with that story. But the story is often centered around a damsel in distress. Although I've seen it the other way around as in the Isis Osiris myth. Often the female is portrayed existing on multiple levels of reality and the hero descending into the underworld.

Transferemce counter transference was the old sort of explanation for it and it was expanded upon with the concept of projective identification. 

A large part borderlines are feared by therapists is because they trigger and activate in the therapist past emotional truamas through projective identification. This can be with only 1 borderline patient for 1 hour a week. 

It happens mostly on an unconcious level. Even highly trained professionals are affected by this. 

Through their projection they trigger archetypes within us and all of our memories associated with that archetype.

[Harri]

Blimblam, I understand what you are saying to the point I can that is.  I am not as well versed in psychology or as well read as you on the subject.    I may be splitting hairs here and we may actually be saying very close to the same things, I can't really tell at this point.  

I do get concerned when I see other people thinking the pwBPD is capable of doing some of the things people say without our own participation.  Whether it is conscious participation or not does not matter to me.  Perhaps I am resistant because I got tired of giving away my power and seeing the BPD as some all powerful mystical force and I was simply overcome by it all, even though as I grew up in that environment I *can* actually say that.  I pulled back the curtain and found a small, angry, hurt little person a while back.  The thought of building her up to have the power to actually control my emotions is repugnant to me.  I am stubborn!  

I also see a lot of the more controlled, planned out acts people talk about as being more in line with NPD than BPD, but that is another issue.  Most of the BPDs I know and have read about are far too messed up to be able to deliberately do many of the things people attribute to BPD.  I mention it because sometimes I think we are trying to compare apples and oranges and sometimes what applies to a partner of a BPD does not at all carry over to a child of a BPD.

LoveOHL, I will check out those concepts, so thank you!  You also gave me a broader perspective of where Blimblam is coming from in that he is outlining their part in the process, though I was not necessarily directing the contents of my first post towards him.  It has just been a general concern of mine over the last week or so.  I've been wondering how to say what I wanted to say so I figured I would try here.

[Blimblam]

Here's the thing

To understand what these "archetypes" or whatever you want to call them that exist in the collective unconcious are we have to think in terms of the 4th dimension.

Here's a link to a YouTube explaining the dimensions in a clear concise way.

www.youtu.be/JkxieS-6WuA

[Blimblam]

Blimblam, I understand what you are saying to the point I can that is.  I am not as well versed in psychology or as well read as you on the subject.    I may be splitting hairs here and we may actually be saying very close to the same things, I can't really tell at this point.  

I do get concerned when I see other people thinking the pwBPD is capable of doing some of the things people say without our own participation.  Whether it is conscious participation or not does not matter to me.  Perhaps I am resistant because I got tired of giving away my power and seeing the BPD as some all powerful mystical force and I was simply overcome by it all, even though as I grew up in that environment I *can* actually say that.  I pulled back the curtain and found a small, angry, hurt little person a while back.  The thought of building her up to have the power to actually control my emotions is repugnant to me.  I am stubborn!  

I also see a lot of the more controlled, planned out acts people talk about as being more in line with NPD than BPD, but that is another issue.  Most of the BPDs I know and have read about are far too messed up to be able to deliberately do many of the things people attribute to BPD.  I mention it because sometimes I think we are trying to compare apples and oranges and sometimes what applies to a partner of a BPD does not at all carry over to a child of a BPD.

LoveOHL, I will check out those concepts, so thank you!  You also gave me a broader perspective of where Blimblam is coming from in that he is outlining their part in the process, though I was not necessarily directing the contents of my first post towards him.  It has just been a general concern of mine over the last week or so.  I've been wondering how to say what I wanted to say so I figured I would try here.

Hari

I feel you.  .

I too pulled back the curtain and saw a hurt trapped child. 

It is not that the pwBPD has so much control over us because clearly they do not have control over themselves.  I am trying to expose the controlling forces at work here.  It may seem somewhat radical and I may seem like a cook.  If you ties in multiple theories together it actually makes sense.

If we look at schemas theory we see identified 18 different modes through which we experience reality.  In the borderline their are 5 that are clearly at play.

These at play can also be seen as archetypical characters. They play out a specific ritual over and over through out their life.  Always looking for a prince to rescue them. 

Why is it that this same specific ritual is triggered pretty much universally in borderlines?   

Also why is it that it takes deep reflective work within oneself to begin to see the story how it played out. 

Member 2010 wrote a lot of good stuff on the dynamics between the lonely child and abandoned child. 

It is extremely hard work to do because their is a very fine line between depersonalizations and dehumanization. 

Also just getting into the state of mind to be able to reflect like that isn't an easy place to get into.

I have found identifying the different schema modes as portrayed in film to give much more insight into the different archetypes.

It's no wonder that projective identification is taught in film theory. 

But anyway the borderline drama is timeless it existed for thousands of years. We always say they are living in fantasy land.  Well when we understand the 4th dimension and the collective unconcious and archetypes and that the borderline has no true self In the third dimension what is really going on begins to become more clear.

[Blimblam]

Here is an example

They portray the damsel in distres and we fill te role of rescuer. They then act like waif and we feel like a parent figure. This is during idealization

Them in devaluing they identify the parent as punitive. The impulsive child rebels against the punitive parent. We still identify ourselves as the rescuer.  They devalue and devalue untill we put our foot down. This activates our lonely child feeling persecuted.  When we get angry and lash out and or set a boundary they fall into victim stance and either continue to rebel or they try to pull us back as the waif. When we feel persecuted it activates our own internal punitive parent which persecutes our own internal lonely child.

So they identify us as the punitive parent and project the impulsive child. When we feel persecuted the punitive parent is projected into us and persecutes our lonely child. Then our impulsive child rebels against the punitive parent and the punitive parent is reflected outward at our ex. 

[AG]

Projection is subconscious and non's do it as well, a pwBPD take it to the extreme. A pwBPD feel shame and guilt and don't want to feel bad. One way to deal with this feelings as a temporary measure is to project. It works but negative feelings come back.

It is attributing an action or undesired emotion on someone else. I called a family justice service agency in Canada yesterday. I had a conversation with an employee. I asked her a question 3 times each time a little differently because she wasn't getting it. She became frustrated and said "You're talking around in circles" and ended the call.

I was asking a question that she couldn't find an answer to and side-stepping or "talking in circles" Projecting.

Who knows she could have been borderline or a non.

Yes I noticed the projection aspect in myself. When I was at work my old boss who blatently wanted something romantic with me was addressing my attitude(Stick to myself kind of attitude causing my staff to not even want to approach me). At the time I was a mess and still am however I have luckily been able to keep my chaos out of my work environment. Anyhow I was always angry or depressed at work and I'm a manager with a staff to lead of housekeepers and receptionists. Kinda difficult to lead when you are dealing with the after effects of being abused and out of a relationship with a person who is crazy and just put your mind in a blender and handed it back to you to put back together. Anyhow my boss was addressing how I was making my staff feel and I projected it back outward towards her because I could not take it at the time being. I started to tell her about her flaws at work instead of just accepting and self analyzing. The conversation got nasty nothing loud but luckily she liked me on a romantic level because if that were another boss who didn't my ___ would have rightfully been served a nice write up for my insubordination. When I got home as usual I carried this with me and analyzed the situation from multiple angles and because of all of this stuff I've been reading on BPD I was able to recognize that I was projecting her constructive critisism outward because I could not handle it at the time. I apologized to her the next day. She knew what was going on with me as she had gotten closer then I normally would have gotten to someone at work. So yes we all do it but I think BPD take it to an extreme level since theyre ability to self reflect is destroyed. Also it puts things in perspective that since I do not have a disorder and was not able to handle that situation due to internal chaos how does my ex handle anything that is said to her. Normally something so minimal would not have effected me but I am severely damaged from this ordeal and guess I am not back to my normal self. We do all do it though it is not an exclusive BPD trait.

[Artisan]

Wow this thread blew up.

Ok, first of all, my examples in the originating post were not posted for people to dissect her reasons. I've tried to understand, and it doesn't work. Everything you all have pointed out is well within my awareness.

It was an example to stimulate conversation, specifically because most of us have experienced the mind-fkery of being accused of cheating only to discover the BPD is the one cheating.

My intention was for us to have some good discussion about projection, identifying it, and working with it.

Thank you all for the insights and experiential expression.

Yes, we ALL project at times. The confusing part is when its constant, persistent, and add gaslighting into the mix, a total mind-Fk.

I am the first person to admit that I can project. It is part of my healing process this past year, facing my own fears.

Because as I see it, fear is the real cause of projection. Fear of being seen. Fear of being rejected. Fear of being punished. Fear of being abandoned. Fear of confrontation.

[Mutt]

I don't think it's fear, it's anxiety to protect the ego.

The ego's use of defence mechanisms

When anxiety becomes overwhelming, it is the ego's place to protect the person by employing defence mechanisms. Guilt, embarrassment and shame often accompany anxiety. In the first definitive book on defence mechanisms, The Ego and the Mechanisms of Defence (1936),[12] Anna Freud introduced the concept of signal anxiety; she stated that it was "not directly a conflicted instinctual tension but a signal occurring in the ego of an anticipated instinctual tension".[12]The signaling function of anxiety is thus seen as a crucial one and biologically adapted to warn the organism of danger or a threat to its equilibrium. The anxiety is felt as an increase in bodily or mental tension and the signal that the organism receives in this way allows it the possibility of taking defensive action regarding the perceived danger. Defence mechanisms work by distorting the id impulses into acceptable forms, or by unconscious or conscious blockage of these impulses.[12]

Anna Freud and her father Sigmund Freud on defense mechanisms; Repression, Regression, Projection etc.

Both Anna Freud and her famous father Sigmund studied defense mechanisms but Anna spent more of her time and research on five main mechanisms: repression, regression, projection, reaction formation, and sublimation. All defence mechanisms are responses to anxiety and how the consciousness and unconscious handle the stress of a social situation.[17]

• Repression: when a feeling is hidden and forced from the consciousness to the unconscious because it is seen as socially unacceptable.



• Regression: falling back into an early state of mental/physical development seen as “less demanding and safer�



• Projection: possessing a feeling that is deigned as socially unacceptable and instead of facing it, that feeling or “unconscious urge” is seen in the actions of other people[17]



• Reaction formation: acting the opposite way that the unconscious instructs a person to behave, “often exaggerated and obsessive.” (i.e. If a wife is infatuated with a man who is not her husband, reaction formation will cause her to – rather than cheat – become obsessed with showing her husband signs of love and affection.)[17]



• Sublimation: seen as the most acceptable of the mechanisms, an expression of anxiety in socially acceptable ways[17]

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms#The_ego.27s_use_of_defence_mechanisms

Borderlines feel a lot of shame, guilt and anxiety and project more so than non's.

[Blimblam]

Well ever sinse my breakup with my ex I am constantly projecting my own internal need to understand what happened and who am I. It is a sort of way to take what was projected into  extract it into the light of day.  I am very aware of the fact that I did not act in this way before my ex.  For a while. I felt ashamed at what I had become or how I was acting.  For a while I just accepted this is what is for now.  Now I'm getting to a point to understand how energy transfers work. How the pieces all come together and make sense for me seem to be centered around projection and introjection.

An example if healthy introjective identification would be when someone states something on this boards he board and incorporate it into my being and let it shift my perception of reality. In this case artisan stated  in his last post about our own projections.

Now the part I think is so dangerous is when people are unaware of their own projections or the fact they may be hurt and need energy from others to accomplish the task at hand. Sn example of this is what some rainbow family nomadic people I knew refered to

As blissaninies.  The blissaninie is so focused on their own bliss they are unable to contribute to the mechanics of what is going on around them and contribute.  The defining thing about this is if the blissaninie excuses this in a self rightious holier than though way. That aspect seperates the monk from the blissaninie. That attitude projects inferiority into those around them if you start to look up to the blissaninie as an authority figure on something. All the blissaninie has to maintain is that air of mystery around the secret they are withholding that makes them so holy or in the know. The blissaninie must scapegoat an individual or groups to create a them to justify their self rightious stance. In turn when someone near them feels the negative energy displaced into them and  wants to hold up a mirror they are perceived as being the source of the "bad vibes," reinforcing the position of the blissaninie.  

Conversely a "i do all the work around here" guilt tripper will scape goat their victims by accusing them of being blissaninies.

A good depiction of this would be the builder and the walrus scenario from Alice in wonderland.

I hope what I wrote makes sense. Thanks family. Thanks artisan for starting this thread and your subtle steering.

[Mutt]

I don't think we need to pathologize everything. Projection is not facing your feelings and attributing it elsewhere. What's important is that we look at our feelings without avoidance and distortion for ourselves in our healing.

[Mutt]

I'd like to share another example of projection that I had tonight while out shopping for groceries. While I was packing my bags I had told a little joke to the clerk and she gave a little smile.

I had paid for my groceries at the till and punched in the debit machine that i wanted 20 for cash back. The clerk gave me a coupon for free Halloween candies. She showed me the spot to get the candies on the other side of the long row of tills.

She said to grab it and go to costumer service and show them to coupon. So I did.

While I was up there I realized that I had forgotten to grab the 20. I gave the second clerk at customer service the coupon. I then told her that the girl forgot to give me my 20. She picked the up phone and was sort of frustrated with the girl at the till and said "The customer at the counter is angry with you. You forgot to give him his money" I thought that's strange   I'm not angry. I'm calm. They'll fix it and I'll get my money.

I went back to the original till and the girl apologized for the other clerk. She said "I knew you weren't angry" I said "Such is life we all make mistakes. That's all it is. " I then thanked her.

So as I turned away I thought. I think there's something going on between those two. Perhaps the lady at customer service doesn't like her. They had a little disagreement about something? I think the lady at customer service just projected her angry feelings at me or it could be passive aggressiveness as well. She could be borderline. She could be non-disordered as well.

My point is. I've learned about the behavior here. I detached and I clearly see this at play with my ex. Often when I pick up the kids in person or in her emails. I think what's important is to be indifferent someone projects.

I don't explain or defend myself to my ex. The reason why is because she's mentally ill and unaware. It can trigger her and it's triggered me in the past. I'd argue back. I don't take it to heart because I learned why people do it. It's subconscious and the person is unaware.

There's no arguing that comes from me and I don't get triggered by it. It makes things better that an argument doesn't ensue and I feel calm and in control of my feelings. I couldn't say this 19 months ago.

This place changes you if you read and understand why a disordered partner gets triggered and projects their feelings.

[In Pain]

Projection:

Let me see if I have this right.

My ex BPD GF accused me of cheating on her... .But she was cheating on me.

So... .

When my ex accused me of being angry at her... .She was really angry at me ?

When she accuses me of not liking her anymore... .It was really her not liking me anymore ?

[Blimblam]

Projection:

Let me see if I have this right.

My ex BPD GF accused me of cheating on her... .But she was cheating on me.

So... .

When my ex accused me of being angry at her... .She was really angry at me ?

When she accuses me of not liking her anymore... .It was really her not liking me anymore ?

It's not that straight forward.

She was angry at herself. Then she probably provoked you to be angry with her.

She doesn't like herself. Then she probably tried to get you to feel sorry for her.

[Artisan]

Not how I see it ... .

She is feeling angry, so she says you are angry and denies her own anger.

[Blimblam]

Not how I see it ... .

She is feeling angry, so she says you are angry and denies her own anger.

Makes sense.

My last ex was a waif so she expressed anger differently.

My first ex i realize was a witch so when she got angry she would burst out. It was easier to make sense of though. My waif ex would just hold it in the reject me in a million little subtle ways which I found to be more painful.

[Artisan]

Blim, the waif sounds passive-aggressive. It's hidden anger and retribution that never sees the light of day.

[Blimblam]

Blim, the waif sounds passive-aggressive. It's hidden anger and retribution that never sees the light of day.

Yes very passive aggressive. At first she didn't feel she had the upper hand she felt powerless so she cheated then the level of devaluing became a sadistic labyrinth to insanity. Rejection is painful and she planted seeds in people's minds to give me a million reasons why I deserved rejection and she would reject me 1000 times a day perfectly timed but I'm such a subtle way she could gas light me. It was like the ultimate gas lighting campaign.

[Bak86]

My ex would always say i was nagging and sounded like a woman. Except for the fact that i always were reasonable.

Example: We agreed after the breakup to hang out(i didn't know about BPD back then), she rescheduled our "date" 3 times, and cancelled on me 15 mins before we would meet up, because she was hungover. I told her that wasn't very nice of her to do that. I skipped plans to be with her and she reacted by saying i sounded like a nagging woman and told me to ___ off. I made her angry.

I thought i was pretty reasonable, but in her eyes i'm a little b___. I think this is projection as well. She's the one who actually nags about every little thing.