New Beginning 3...

[MaroonLiquid]

Here is the previous topic... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240366.0

Can you clarify what you will and won't pay for... .

If you guys have a good couple weeks... .will you purchase groceries?

Will you purchase groceries or spend on other things if she is being obvious about "blowing" her money.

With boundaries and "new decisions"... very important to be clear... .especially in your own mind.

    Good question.  I won't pay her bills.  I consider anything that is bills as rent, car, electric, phone, gas, etc.  I won't pay for car repairs, medical, or any surprise costs associated with those.  I provide incredible insurance that saves her about 1000 dollars a month going forward and to me, that is already going above and beyond considering she wanted this separation.  

    I don't want to sound enabling, but groceries are something different and that depends on the circumstances I guess.  If she blew her money, absolutely not.

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[MaroonLiquid]

One thing I have a hard time doing when dealing with my wife is not dealing in logic.  I try to understand how she justifies in her mind doing some of the crap she's done.  She knows how it feels to be taken advantage of because she was screwed over horribly by her ex husband, and not just with child support.  During their divorce, he would not sign the papers to sell their home and it went into foreclosure.  It seems to me that the method to her madness the last 6 months is survival in that one particular moment (silent treatment to get me to pay a bill, throwing a temper tantrum, etc), not caring about what happens after that or the consequences from her actions.  I know there were times she would do this before she split, but man.  I still have a hard time with how quick she went downhill.  It was almost like it was overnight.  I'm starting to see how bad her splitting/dissociation have become at times.

[formflier]

 

I like your answers to what you will or won't pay... .I'm going to continue to push for further clarification... .so that things are clear in your head... .ahead of time.

Why?

IMO... .she is using two main "weapons" (here goes FF the military guy... .) against you.

The silent treatment/NC.

The "money thing".

If I asked you for her top two "weapons"... .do you think you would have the same list?

NC... .that is her choice... .and... .I don't see much you can do there.  When you do get contact... .do as good as you can... .and when she decides NC or LC... or whatever... ."don't chase".   Anyone think of other options that Maroon has for the NC thing?

Money:  It's clear what she wants... .you pay when she wants... .no strings attached.  We all agree that is not healthy (I think... .anyone disagree).   I think she understands that the gig is up... .and is going through various "extinction bursts" to see where the chinks in your armor are... .

So... .if you read the lessons... .the key is to not have chinks... .to not intermittently reinforce.

We also know she will keep trying various angles.  The last angle was "change your gift... give me the money... ."

So... .I think we should work through various other things that may come up... .so that when they do... .you can calmly use the tools and move along.

Groceries.  She has been clear that its her house... .her castle... .her domain.  I would suggest you go over and partake in her stuff... invite her to your place.  In her place... .her groceries... .her stuff.  If she is low.  Enjoy what is there... .don't complain.  Somehow in there if this ever happens... ."I"ve got some pizzas at my place we could make... .do you guys want to go over"  If she shuts this down... .stay there... enjoy an evening without.

I would say your limit would be buying something for "one meal"... .if an agreement is reached on another meal at your place. 

Thoughts?

The key is not to "win" the argument... .but to "defuse" her weapon... .her bomb.  After it stops working for a while... .she may drop it all together.

If a couple evenings without are what is takes to defuse the weapon... is that worth it?

I'm sure there are other ways to look at this... .thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

I like your answers to what you will or won't pay... .I'm going to continue to push for further clarification... .so that things are clear in your head... .ahead of time.

Why?

IMO... .she is using two main "weapons" (here goes FF the military guy... .) against you.

The silent treatment/NC.

The "money thing".

If I asked you for her top two "weapons"... .do you think you would have the same list?

Yes, I would have the same list.

NC... .that is her choice... .and... .I don't see much you can do there.  When you do get contact... .do as good as you can... .and when she decides NC or LC... or whatever... ."don't chase".   Anyone think of other options that Maroon has for the NC thing?

Money:  It's clear what she wants... .you pay when she wants... .no strings attached.  We all agree that is not healthy (I think... .anyone disagree).   I think she understands that the gig is up... .and is going through various "extinction bursts" to see where the chinks in your armor are... .

I agree that is why she is going through various extinction bursts... .

Groceries.  She has been clear that its her house... .her castle... .her domain.  I would suggest you go over and partake in her stuff... invite her to your place. 

I have gone to her place, she has just never come to mine.  I have invited, and my son has invited her.  She did say yes, but when it came down to it, she had an excuse why she couldn't.  I think she is afraid I would do the same thing to her that she has done to me (tell me to leave).  The Bible says, "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he... ."

In her place... .her groceries... .her stuff.  If she is low.  Enjoy what is there... .don't complain.  Somehow in there if this ever happens... ."I"ve got some pizzas at my place we could make... .do you guys want to go over"  If she shuts this down... .stay there... enjoy an evening without.

     Didn't really understand this one.  WHat do you mean if she shuts this down?  I have offered to buy stuff to replace her stuff and even bought stuff for meals to help also since I consider myself and my kids more mouths to feed. 

     I have offered to cook dinner at my place several times.  I have asked her to come over and it just be the two of us so that we can just have us time.  She has declined on all counts (until last weekend when it ultimately didn't happen).  This I don't get.  maybe she can't handle that I have my own place, doing fine without her, and she can't handle that?  I think the men in her life before me (dad and ex husband) either used her till she had enough or couldn't make it without her and she never expected anything different from me.

The key is not to "win" the argument... .but to "defuse" her weapon... .her bomb.  After it stops working for a while... .she may drop it all together.

If a couple evenings without are what is takes to defuse the weapon... is that worth it?

Are you asking if a couple of evenings without her to diffuse the bomb would make it worth it?  If so, absolutely.  I can't go on like this anymore where I do nothing in hopes she "comes to her senses".  That is sticking my head in the sand.  It is also insanity... .Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

Very good dissection of my long... .rambling post about her weapons... .I see exactly where I lost you.

My idea... .about groceries... only buy them for your place... not hers.

Going without... .means if you are at her place... .and she "realizes" that she is out... that you offer to bring her over to your place to cook for her.  If she declines... stay at her place and be happy eating pretzels... .don't use "your wallet" to fix her "issue" of being out of food.

The idea here is to "balance out" the r/s... .she is trying to keep it unbalanced... and keep you on her turf.  Also trying to get in your wallet.

I hope this makes sense...

Maybe I'll have more time later to explain more... .I see that I said it oddly the first time.

Not sure if I did better this time... .

[KateCat]

MaroonLiquid,

I've read quite a few of your descriptions of the difficult situation you're in with your wife, and I am very much impressed by the idea now discussed by formflier.

On this forum advisors often use the concept of "keeping your side of the street clean." Or understanding clearly our own boundaries so that we can separate "her side of the street" / from "your side of the street."

So what formflier seems to be doing here is making this literal, in a way that promises (I think) to be effective. Eventually, of course.  :)Not right away, because your wife is determined and willful.

A few months ago you were all over "her side of the street," with commingled financial obligations and daily offers of helping her out and getting together, on her terms. [I apologize if my memory is not correct, but I think you were really chasing her hard, and really being rebuffed and taken advantage of.] Now you stand separate for the most part (and good for you for providing medical insurance for her kids), firmly, and in your own space.

The open offer of sharing the bounty of "your space" now seems to me to be the crowning piece, possibly, of resolving this puzzle. An open invitation is something you can keep open, for a much longer period of time, than the type of rebuffed invitations you have been offering in the past. Offering simple, profound hospitality, rather than waiting to run over to clean up her side of the street seems very powerful to me. It also has the simplicity and elegance of not being wasteful.

If her respect and appreciation for you don't grow with that offering, then, well . . . . I don't know.

formflier may have other thoughts about this idea, but these are ones that sprang to my mind.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .the street analogy works much better than the way I was trying to say it.

I was going for keeping things separate... .yet remaining generous... .(getting best of both worlds). 

Generosity is on your terms... .much like gift giving.  She still retains option to reject.

[KateCat]

Generosity is on your terms... .much like gift giving.  She still retains option to reject.

I like this. A lot. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Very good advice FF and Kate!  I see what yall are saying and it makes complete sense.  My wife texted me and told me that our daughter "changed her mind" about softball and asked if it was still possible for her to play on the softball team that I coach again this season (She knew it was because I told her so last weekend).   . Anyway, I responded, "Awesome!  I'm glad!  Of course she can as I don't turn in my freezes to the league till next week.  Looking forward to it!"  She hasn't responded and I didn't either as I answered her question and let her have her space.

[MaroonLiquid]

There has been no further communication from my wife since she asked about our daughter playing on my softball team last night and I haven't texted anything after my response.  Continuing to let her have space... .

[formflier]

There has been no further communication from my wife since she asked about our daughter playing on my softball team last night and I haven't texted anything after my response.  Continuing to let her have space... .

My take... .you've got your answer.  Turn in the freezes and expect the daughter to be there.

If you make it to big a deal... or keep bringing it up... .she may use it as a "tool" on you.

What is you plan?  Do you think it needs to be talked about again?

[MaroonLiquid]

There has been no further communication from my wife since she asked about our daughter playing on my softball team last night and I haven't texted anything after my response.  Continuing to let her have space... .

My take... .you've got your answer.  Turn in the freezes and expect the daughter to be there.

If you make it to big a deal... or keep bringing it up... .she may use it as a "tool" on you.

What is you plan?  Do you think it needs to be talked about again?

No not at all.  I figured that her saying last week that she would enroll her elsewhere was a way to get a rise out of me.  I am just surprised that more communication didn't open up from there. 

[KateCat]

Seems to me that you are showing strength, grace and generosity. So now you just continue to do this good-but-hard work and prepare for a journey of discovery about your wife and your relationship. . . . What a mystery!

What isn't a mystery is what a great family man you are. 

[formflier]

 

Mystery is an interesting... .and appropriate way to put it.  Lots of stuff gets figured out... lots doesn't.

I think those on the staying board tend to have to be ok with mystery.  Many of us have no idea how we are going to get to a "better place" in our r/s... .or when that will happen... in some cases... .we wonder "if".

But... .we choose to accept the mystery and press forward with strength... .with love... .and grace.

Grace for us... .and hopefully enough empathy to pass on that same grace to our partners... .that are battling something that they probably don't understand either... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Seems to me that you are showing strength, grace and generosity. So now you just continue to do this good-but-hard work and prepare for a journey of discovery about your wife and your relationship. . . . What a mystery!

What isn't a mystery is what a great family man you are. 

Thanks KateCat!  I truly love my wife.

Mystery is an interesting... .and appropriate way to put it.  Lots of stuff gets figured out... lots doesn't.

I think those on the staying board tend to have to be ok with mystery.  Many of us have no idea how we are going to get to a "better place" in our r/s... .or when that will happen... in some cases... .we wonder "if".

But... .we choose to accept the mystery and press forward with strength... .with love... .and grace.

Grace for us... .and hopefully enough empathy to pass on that same grace to our partners... .that are battling something that they probably don't understand either... .

I do choose the mystery and choose to show grace to her. 

Today I'm relaxing which is nice.  I've noticed my wife has ramped up her posts on Facebook the last 24 hours.  She does this right before she starts making contact with me again. I do miss her but not terribly anymore as I'm getting used to this cycle.  Even though she texted me first on Wednesday about softball, I haven't texted back as I'm trying to give her space and keep my side of the street clean. 

[KateCat]

I'm very impressed with your strength and growth.  Do you think there's any chance that your wife could maintain a pretty stable and positive image of you if all "money issues" somehow disappeared? (Not saying I have any idea how to do that in a marriage with kids, but just wondering if all issues have seemed to be linked somehow to her sense that men will want to take financial advantage of her in devious ways.)

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm very impressed with your strength and growth.  Do you think there's any chance that your wife could maintain a pretty stable and positive image of you if all "money issues" somehow disappeared? (Not saying I have any idea how to do that in a marriage with kids, but just wondering if all issues have seemed to be linked somehow to her sense that men will want to take financial advantage of her in devious ways.)

Yes I do believe she can.  I don't know why she projects those feelings on to me, because I never used her.  I have always had a job (unlike her ex), and have now proven I can take care of myself and live without her (never lived in my own before this).  I don't know how that perception that ALL men use her goes away.  It started with her dad who only calls her when he needs her to do something "impossible", continued with her ex husband who has never paid  child support and her former pastor where she led worship where she was never offered any compensation for ministry (didn't really expect it, but always said it would have been nice to offer). 

[MaroonLiquid]

I texted my wife to see if our daughter wanted to go to a softball clinic tomorrow and my wife said no because they are all sick.  I validated that and asked if she needed anything or wanted me to come take care of them and she said, "No thanks."  I said, "You're welcome and if she changes her mind don't hesitate to ask."  I offered.  That's all I can do.  Not sure why she didn't tell me.  Strange.  Oh well.

[MaroonLiquid]

So I checked on my wife to see how everyone was feeling and she texted back and said not good.  I validated that and asked if there was anything she needed and she said no but asked if I wanted to go to the store with her.  I said sure and we went.  We bought some stuff separately and helped her find the stuff she needed.  We had fun.  I asked how her mom and sister were doing and she said she hasn't talked to her sister since the day of her surgery and her mom since she sent her to her sisters a couple of days before her surgery.   She said that her sister must have been poisoned by her mom.  I validated her with that and things went really well today.  I asked if she wanted to go see a movie with me this week and she said, "Yes, I would like that."  She has started a new "eating healthy" deal (does this every year  ).  After we went shopping I came back to my apartment and she went home.  I told her I would FaceTime her this evening and she said that would be nice.  All in all it was a good day.  I'm curious what really happened with her mom before she left.  I wonder if her mom started to figure out it wasn't me that was the major problem and called her on it.  I know what my wife said (said her mom called the kids lazy) but... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Can someone try and explain something to me.  Since last night, my wife is acting "different".  I have seen this behavior before, therefore it isn't a big deal and think it has to do with splitting, dissociation or both?  Anyway, while my wife and I were shopping, she would hug me and tell me she loved me.  I do notice some conversations she doesn't realize, or remember we had.  On text, she is acting almost guarded.  Not rude at all, but "guarded" (not hiding anything "guarded" if that makes sense) is the only way I can explain it.  Almost like she is protecting herself "guarded".  She wasn't this way the three weeks over Christmas when we spent a lot of time together.  She has been this way before after a pretty big dysregulation.  Thoughts?

[formflier]

 

Can you cut and paste some texts... .

Send us a "guarded one"... .and one that is not guarded.

Offhand... .I'm not sure.

Usually... .their communications and the way the communicate are a "window" to their emotions.  I don't think this is conscious on their part.

[MaroonLiquid]

Taked to her on the phone a few minutes ago and she seemed fine and said she loved me, so maybe I'm being a little sensitive.

Just sometimes when I send a sweet text, no response to that.  For instance, I asked her how her scars were healing and she said they were great.  I told her I'm glad her scars from her surgery have healed and aren't giving her any problems.  Told her it was a blessing to be able to take care of her after her surgery and help take care of the kids.  No response, but then when I texted about 20 minutes later and asked how the kids were feeling, she responded almost immediately that they weren't up yet.  Maybe she didn't feel she needed to respond as it wasn't a question? 

[123Phoebe]

Taked to her on the phone a few minutes ago and she seemed fine and said she loved me, so maybe I'm being a little sensitive.

Just sometimes when I send a sweet text, no response to that.  For instance, I asked her how her scars were healing and she said they were great.  I told her I'm glad her scars from her surgery have healed and aren't giving her any problems.  Told her it was a blessing to be able to take care of her after her surgery and help take care of the kids.  No response, but then when I texted about 20 minutes later and asked how the kids were feeling, she responded almost immediately that they weren't up yet.  Maybe she didn't feel she needed to respond as it wasn't a question? 

I would say there was no need for a response.  You spoke from your heart, the way you feel about it.

How would you have liked her to respond? 

[MaroonLiquid]

Taked to her on the phone a few minutes ago and she seemed fine and said she loved me, so maybe I'm being a little sensitive.

Just sometimes when I send a sweet text, no response to that.  For instance, I asked her how her scars were healing and she said they were great.  I told her I'm glad her scars from her surgery have healed and aren't giving her any problems.  Told her it was a blessing to be able to take care of her after her surgery and help take care of the kids.  No response, but then when I texted about 20 minutes later and asked how the kids were feeling, she responded almost immediately that they weren't up yet.  Maybe she didn't feel she needed to respond as it wasn't a question? 

I would say there was no need for a response.  You spoke from your heart, the way you feel about it.

How would you have liked her to respond? 

I see what you are saying.  I guess I'm being overly sensitive.  That's what I figured... .

[123Phoebe]

I see what you are saying.  I guess I'm being overly sensitive.  That's what I figured... .

I wouldn't go as far as to say that you're being overly sensitive.  You're sensitive to this sort of thing, it's okay.  Acceptance of self is awesome!

[MaroonLiquid]

I've always been sensitive to people being upset with me.  I get frustrated with myself because I tend to ask even if they aren't.  I hate that part of me, but am working on it. 

[formflier]

 

Do you ask if they are upset with you?

[MaroonLiquid]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

[123Phoebe]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

I hear ya, Maroon!

Ugh, I'm pretty sensitive to people's moods.  Where the problem lies is when I suspect they are upset with me for some reason.  If I know I didn't do anything wrong, then why automatically assume that their mood has something to do with me?  I had to figure that one out on my own.

Bottom line, noticing when another person is upset and acknowledging their feelings can be very validating. Thinking that it has something to do with me (taking it personally) is something else entirely... .

[formflier]

Sometimes, or most of the time I would ask if they are upset about something.

My take is this is a bit of a leading question... .

For instance... in my past I was sort of like an EMT (paramedic)... .

We were trained to never ask if this "hurts"... .that was leading.

"how does this feel"... while poking... .is usually better.

So... "how are you doing"

or "how do you feel about me being here... "  or about what you had to say... .

Make sense?  Thoughts?