Advice of resources based on where I THINK I am

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi I’ve posted some other threads as I thought about divorcing and then moved out.

I moved out chaotically about a month ago. Things are still settling. I’m stressed about cash. My stbx now wants to try to keep the relationship. I’m trying to manage her with being codependent )strategic v unhealthy). Would I even know the difference ?

I have little idea who I am as I oriented my existence around my stbx. I am still doing that - concerned about how she will react to [whatever]. I need to rehab my self esteem. I’m worried I’ll cave in to obligation and guilt and go back (though I am less and less worried about that).

I was the victim of physical abuse. I don’t really know what to say to people who ended up learning about that as I crash landed my way out of the relationship.

I want to heal RAPIDLY because I have kids to parent and that self induced pressure surely isn’t productive.


There are a lot of really good resources on this board. In fact I am overwhelmed.


Can anyone provide advice or ask questions so I can figure out what might help me most?

[AlleyOop23]

Hi I’ve posted some other threads as I thought about divorcing and then moved out.

I moved out chaotically about a month ago. Things are still settling. I’m stressed about cash. My stbx now wants to try to keep the relationship. I’m trying to manage her with being codependent )strategic v unhealthy). Would I even know the difference ?

I have little idea who I am as I oriented my existence around my stbx. I am still doing that - concerned about how she will react to [whatever]. I need to rehab my self esteem. I’m worried I’ll cave in to obligation and guilt and go back (though I am less and less worried about that).

I was the victim of physical abuse. I don’t really know what to say to people who ended up learning about that as I crash landed my way out of the relationship.

I want to heal RAPIDLY because I have kids to parent and that self induced pressure surely isn’t productive.


There are a lot of really good resources on this board. In fact I am overwhelmed.


Can anyone provide advice or ask questions so I can figure out what might help me most?

[kells76]

Hey, good to see you over here 

Detaching from a spouse as romantic partner, while maintaining the parenting relationship, certainly takes nuance, and while the process can be uncomfortable, long term it is do-able.

I have little idea who I am as I oriented my existence around my stbx. I am still doing that - concerned about how she will react to [whatever]. I need to rehab my self esteem. I’m worried I’ll cave in to obligation and guilt and go back (though I am less and less worried about that).

That's an important insight to have.

Having that insight is a sign that you are starting to differentiate.

There is a balance between being overly concerned about her reactions to the point of being paralyzed (one side of the extreme) vs having a "eff her I do what I want" attitude (reactive, the other side of the extreme).

Building skills to manage your own feelings and thoughts would be a place I would recommend starting. You can consider focusing on that as a first step and allowing yourself to leave the other resources for later. One thing at a time.

This is our workshop on Triggering, Mindfulness, and the Wise Mind.

One post to focus on in that workshop could be this one, on "S.T.O.P.P.":

I wanted to share STOPP

• Stop! Say it to yourself, in your head, as soon as you notice your mind and/or your body is reacting to a trigger.
  
  Stop! helps to put in the space between the stimulus (the trigger, whatever we are reacting to) and our response.
  
  The earlier you use STOPP, the easier and more effective it will be.

• Take a Breath.  reathing a little deeper and slower will calm down and reduce the physical reaction of emotion/adrenaline.
  
  Focusing on our breathing means we are not so focused on the thoughts and feelings of the distress, so that our minds can start to clear and we can think more logically and rationally.

• Observe.  We can notice the thoughts going through our mind, we can notice what we feel in our body, and we can notice the urge to react in an impulsive way. We can notice the vicious cycle of anxiety, sadness or anger (etc).
  
  Noticing helps us to defuse from those thoughts and feelings and therefore reduce their power and control.

• Pull back / Put in some Perspective.  The thought challenging of CBT. Thinking differently.
  
  When we step back emotionally from a situation, and start to see the bigger picture, it reduces those distressing beliefs. We can do this by asking ourselves questions.

• Practice what works / Proceed.  This is the behavioral change of CBT. Doing things differently.
  
  Rather than reacting impulsively with unhelpful consequences, we can CHOOSE our more helpful and positive response.

What sounds do-able there, for you right now?

...

One P.S. here. The "Detaching" board may have feedback about totally cutting ties with an ex. Because you have shared kids, that won't be possible in your situation. So it is OK for you to speak up and let members know that you aren't able to, for example, totally block her.

You can still work on emotionally untangling yourself, while maintaining parenting contact    You got this!

[Pook075]

I want to heal RAPIDLY because I have kids to parent and that self induced pressure surely isn’t productive.

We all want that for you, but at the same time you must accept that we all heal at our own pace.  There's different levels of healing as well from something like this and you don't have to be 100% over things to be a great parent.

Take your time with this and focus on what you need today- physically, mentally, and spiritually.  You can worry about tomorrow...well, tomorrow.  One day at a time, one lesson at a time, will get you to where you want to go.

[AlleyOop23]

I just had 5 days away spent with one of my kids. I didn’t work and just had fun with her. It gave me the chance to take my brain off everything.

From the post above I ended up moving around this site

I found this posted in something written by Skip.

The key elements of "No Contact" are

~    to get the partner out of your day-to- day life,

~    to stop thinking in terms of a relationship,

~    to take them out of your vision of the future,

~    to stop wondering about how they are perceiving everything you are doing, and

~    to stop obsessing with how they are reacting (or not reacting) or what they are doing.

I can’t go no contact. I’ve got coparenting. But the things above are the things I realized I was craving before I even found that list.


My ubpd stbxw does not want to be divorced. I left her in 2007 and what she’s doing now is straight out of the same playbook and I’m hoping by posting this his I can get some advice. Here is a list
- I love you and don’t want to divorce and would never have actually done the things I threatened

- I am suffering from perimenopausal induced depression and you are abandoning me


- I have been suffering from perimenopausal depression and though I refused when you tried (and blamed you.for my condition) you should have tried harder to get me into some kind of treatment

— talking to you is the only thing that calms my suicidal ideation

- I want tell people we are separated and not divorcing

- I want to go to couples counseling and see what happens

- I need you to work on us and on you so that we can have a healthy coparenting dynamic

- she calls me in anguished crisis asking me to save her


I find myself trying to be friends and coparents. When she thought I would not engage she was only in victim mode. Now that I’ve opened the door to some form of counseling she’s back to blame and criticism which on some level is actually helping me stay away.

She hasn’t tried sex yet. That’s coming. I just read and learned a lot about that keeping me in this relationship.


I feel on OBLIGATION to engage. I am telling myself I am trying to achieve a future for us as friendly coparents that is probably a fantasy. I do want to feel as though I tied for that for my kids. I am trying to sort out how much of that is a lie or excuse to continue to play rescuer.

And I may as well put it out there for helping. My desire to have sex with her kept me in this abusive unhealthy relationship. I’ve read the threads on this tendency in these relationships. But the sex was phenomenal. I took validation from
It. And I still want to even though I do not, it is the worst thing for both of us.

I have really looked inside. I am done with this relationship. I cannot fathom going back. When I left I wondered if I could make a list of 100 reasons. I stopped at 100 because my hand was tired. I read it over and over. There’s some awful things in there and it sucks, it sucks to keep focusing on that crap to keep my perspective forcing myself to relive it over and over.


I read somewhere these boards are like a journal. TIA for reading my jounrnal. I really really want her out of my day to day. That’s really tough right this
Minute ad the kids activities are set up for a two parent two driver home. There are some days we both drive them and then drop off where they go.

O could go in night down that list. I really want all those things. I want to be empathetic ally indifferent if that’s such a thing.


I really don’t have it in me
To just hang up on her and tel her I can’t help when she calls
Me in crisis with the pleaee save me. And the I need help with depression. (She really has been depressed). To me it’s like walking by someone bleeding out. Albeit someone who has cut my soul and whittled away my self esteem and thrown things at me.

Okay that’s all for now and like 10x more than I come to write.

[kells76]

Glad you can get stuff out "on paper" here. We're listening.

I really don’t have it in me
To just hang up on her and tel her I can’t help when she calls
Me in crisis with the pleaee save me. And the I need help with depression. (She really has been depressed). To me it’s like walking by someone bleeding out. Albeit someone who has cut my soul and whittled away my self esteem and thrown things at me.

I wonder if it doesn't have to be 0% or 100% yet.

0%: "leave her bleeding out by the side of the road", hang up the phone instantly, etc
100%: "drop everything to save her"

Can we thread that needle, too? Make gentle steps back from the 100%? 90%, then 80%, then 70%...?

What would 90% engagement look like? Frame that as a win. You're not somehow "doing it wrong" just because you aren't "ripping the bandaid off" and cutting all contact. You're taking thoughtful steps to transition the family to a new arrangement. You're taking the emotional lead. It will take time, that's OK.

Like you said -- you share kids, they have activities, there is going to be some overlap. I get it. My H has 2 teen daughters -- we have to have some contact with Mom and Stepdad.

...

Next time she calls/texts, what would a ~10% step down from your current engagement level look like?

[Kashi]

My ex tried to win me back with seduction.

I just saw those photos she sent me as shallow chat line photos.  And the flirting.

I felt nothing.   Because I think better of myself than that. 

I just saw it as stuff she could have sent anyone.

I'm just another one.

It feels hollow.   

I think we all know even though we say how great the idolization was, that it was hollow.

I don't know, you men think differently.  I am a woman.  Obviously, I think differently in some ways.

It's like sending your heart into a canyon of "nothingness."

Whatever pleasure or love you felt existed, was far less than you imagined.

Cut your losses and move forward.  Go gently.

Be a good father to your child will need you to be.  It will be important to them now and in the future.

That is something you can give and know it will matter.

How beautiful is that?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Alleyoop-

I hope you’re feeling a little better today.  I can feel you really trying to keep your head above water and I know it’s hard.  Especially when none of the answers are clear cut.

This struggle is so terrifying, especially when the person you were supposed to be closest with seems at war with what’s in both your and your children’s best interests.  And hers.  But no.  You can longer put what she *sees* as “her” best interest anywhere near the top of what’s in yours.

I’m wondering if you truly see that her entire focus seems to be on herself when she contacts you.  How she feels, how you’ve failed her, how you’re letting her down now, where you’ve fallen short, what she wants to tell people about the living situation (to save face); how if only you’d done this or that; that you’re responsible for this depression or that depression.   The truth is…you’re not and you never were.  Sure, there’s your side of the street, yet there has ALWAYS been hers, too.  She’s just refused and continues to refuse to look at that.

And… at least from your writing, It seems that nowhere in begging and pleading does she mention or ask about one feeling of pain or emotion *YOU* may have ever or are now experiencing.  Or that any of your children have experienced witnessing her behavior. 

I’m sorry.  Like you, I have been through it… and when I see this level of utter dismissal for anything you feel, and the point you had to get to to no longer live with your children full time - it really gets to me sometimes.  Like right now.  That she STILL takes no responsibility for any of her abusive actions or behaviors.

Alleyoop- I also suffered a physical assault at the hands of my exH.  Mine was one time and my 19-year relationship/marriage ended that night when he was arrested for felony domestic assault.  The physical part of it came out of nowhere, at least to me, and was terrifying.  It took me years to work through. 

For a man, I think parts of being physically abused by your wife may cause you to feel “smaller, unseen, more silenced” than maybe a woman would once she’s safe, out and able to speak.  I’m not sure I’m saying this properly.  There may be a higher level of uncalled for “shame”, I don’t know if that’s the right word, for the feelings that may be there…  I did feel those things… but acknowledge in this situation, you may feel differently.  I kept a LOT to myself, and still do.

I will say though, it’s important for you to tell someone, or a few “someone’s” you trust exactly what has taken place and how hurt you’ve been.  You don’t need to disclose everything to everyone.  And you don’t “owe” anyone you’re not comfortable with any information or FULL disclosure. 

I know this isn’t my place and I’m sorry, and you’ve brought this up… the sex.  Chances are very high that she’ll try to engage you.  My view, after being with two disordered men for a total of 26.5 years, is that they really connected on a deeply *physical* level.  And were very attached to me in that way.  They were both very attached to me in other ways, too.  But in the end, I don’t believe they were really emotionally attached or emotionally close to me because they just do not have it in them.  My body could have been ANY body.  It was all about what I did FOR them.  It took me a looooong time to understand this.  Painful lesson.  So please use caution. 

It sounds like you know that staying out is the most healthy path for you and your children.  If that’s your decision, in each moment, then during each of those moments, sex ought to be a No.  Regardless of her manner or reasons for asking, seducing, telling, begging, memory conjuring or anything.  The price you pay for giving in to that could be huge.  I’m sorry.

Finally…(sorry for the length of this), there is something for you to try.  For you.  I wish I knew how to link. It’s called “Progressive Muscle Relaxation”.  By Therapy in a Nutshell.  Please look it up on You tube.  Lie back, loose clothing, free your toes and listen.  It’s 9 minutes and your body and mind will thank you.  Please try to think of yourself.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Pook075]

I feel on OBLIGATION to engage. I am telling myself I am trying to achieve a future for us as friendly coparents that is probably a fantasy. I do want to feel as though I tied for that for my kids. I am trying to sort out how much of that is a lie or excuse to continue to play rescuer.

Hey Alley.

Maybe this would make sense if we talked this out a different way.  You cannot be friendly co-parents TODAY because she's pushing to reconcile and you're trying to heal.  Those two things are not for forever though, it's just for right now.

Today, you need to focus on your needs for today.  Forget about the goals for next week, next month, next year...what do you need to feel safe, secure, and in control today?  Think about that and prioritize what you find.

When my relationship ended, it was so easy to try to solve the big picture stuff and what it meant.  But that wasn't in my power.  All I could do was get through the next hour.  And that's okay, that's how we heal.  We make small discoveries about ourselves and what it means to be happy in our own skin.

I won't lie to you, healing doesn't come overnight and this is something you'll have to work through for awhile.  It would do you well though to shift mindsets from "what she wants/demands" to "what you actually need right now."  Get through today and we'll worry about tomorrow when it arrives.  Make sense?

In time, you will be able to co-parent if you put in the work to heal.  It's impossible to see that right now because that's not where you're at...and that's okay.  The goal for today is to make smart, healthy decisions that are within your control right now.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks. All of you so much. Gems - that was very thoughtful and no not too long. My therapist constantly made the same point- my needs were never in there. I’m still working out being physically abused. I don’t feel entitled to the same category of victim hood which mindset plays into my situation stbx’s minimization. I wasn’t smaller or weaker. I never felt in mortal danger. It scared me - I could have been hurt - but I could always have gotten away. But now as she talks and equates my stonewalling and neglect ( I own that) I just want to yell at her as loud as I can yell”omg will you stfu you kickeed me out of my home and kids with threats of violence and false arrest and you aren’t even acknowledging how effed up that is much less getting appropriate help!”

Pook - I do like the validation on one day at a time and playing the long game

[SinisterComplex]

Thanks. All of you so much. Gems - that was very thoughtful and no not too long. My therapist constantly made the same point- my needs were never in there. I’m still working out being physically abused. I don’t feel entitled to the same category of victim hood which mindset plays into my situation stbx’s minimization. I wasn’t smaller or weaker. I never felt in mortal danger. It scared me - I could have been hurt - but I could always have gotten away. But now as she talks and equates my stonewalling and neglect ( I own that) I just want to yell at her as loud as I can yell”omg will you stfu you kickeed me out of my home and kids with threats of violence and false arrest and you aren’t even acknowledging how effed up that is much less getting appropriate help!”

Pook - I do like the validation on one day at a time and playing the long game

Perhaps the hardest part for you is that there never will be acknowledgement. That is why getting worked up on your part is so frustrating because while you want to explode like a geyser it truly wont do anything other than make you look bad and give her more power and control. Trust me my friend the best thing for you is to focus on teaching yourself how to be firm and indifferent.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Tangled mangled]

AlleOop,
In addition to what others have said, could you limit communication with your stbxw to just emails.

When things were volatile with mine and I was initially stuck in thesame household for 10 months following DV, then left moving over 200 miles away, one respite I got was insisting on email communication only. This created distance and allowed me headspace to handle life. My stbxh was only allowed to call or speak to me directly in an emergency.
I sent him a text message stating with a definition of what an emergency looked like.

Your stbxw is an adult deemed to have capacity: if she’s depressed, you are not antidepressant, she should speak to her doctor. If she’s suicidal you’re not a psychiatrist.

My message was clear to my stbxh even though I’m almost a qualified physician, I refuse to help him in any way other than sign posting- even that was limited- eg call your doctor.
Because you have been in your codependent/ rescuer role for so long it’s very difficult to break free and you will find yourself taking responsibility for aspects of her life that has nothing to do with you.
I treated leaving my ex like a military operation- the sex, fake security, status of being married was tempting. I felt free once I accepted that loneliness and lack of sexual intimacy was going to be the side effect of my divorce. Well the sexual intimacy was gone by the time I was physically assaulted so it wasn’t even a loss.

Consider ways of protecting yourself, Richard Grannon and some others on YouTube say, every communication with a BPD/Narc - they are pretty much thesame anyway is an opportunity for abuse. So you will be protecting yourself and helping your healing by reconstructing how you communicate with your ex.
I had to change my phone number to get rid of all the cluster B personalities in my life- I only communicate with my ex via email. It’s so much better

[zachira]

I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said. I know many divorced couples with shared custody of children who have a high conflict relationship use a specific app to communicate and the communications are only supposed to be about shared custody of the children. I believe the court often orders the parents to use this app.

[AlleyOop23]

As I distance myself and toward the objectives of no contact, even if given our shared children, I need to be low contact. I have a question and hope for some input. My STbx Will often get stuck on something and feel the need to either spout about it in person or by text. I’m not really sure what to do in most instances. There was a time when I thought that if I could just explain what I was thinking She would understand and things would be fine when I realized that was a fallacy. I started setting boundaries by waiting into it and arguing with her which I have come to realize is also pointless so here’s the question/conundrum.

When she starts something like tonight she started in on me about how my rental was too expensive and that I needed a move. I don’t know what to effectively say in return. patient explaining is no good. logic doesn’t work. Telling her she’s wrong or doesn’t have the right to weigh in is counterproductive completely ignoring her. It doesn’t work.

I guess I could biff it “I understand think where I live is too expensive, but I think in the context of other rentals in the area it is reasonably priced, I understand we disagree. I don’t intend to move”

Anyway, if anyone’s got ideas, I’d love to hear them.

[EyesUp]

Hey Alley.

It looks like you’re going in the right direction.  This might be a slight variation…

“I appreciate the concern. I agree that finances are important. I will keep it in mind, thank you.”

In this option, there’s some validation, it’s 100% “I” statements and 0% “you” statements, and it’s exceedingly polite - and brief.

The fact is:  post-separation, even this is maybe too much.  You’re correct that you need to be able to communicate about the kids, but other personal decisions should really be off the table.

Why does she need to weigh in on this? Are you truly obligated to respond?

My $0.02 - unless it’s directly about the divorce or the kids, it’s not her concern.  I have no idea what my xw pays for rent, and never asked. 

Perhaps she’s trying to remain engaged, or to exercise some control?  She doesn’t have that right or that power unless you give it to her.

Another response might be “thanks, I’m all set”

Another response might be no response.

Does that make sense?

BTW, how was the bat mitzvah?

[GaGrl]

I recall a member from years ago who would often reply to situations like this with...

"You talk to her too much."

But seriously, how does a conversation about the children devolve into her opinion fest about something that is none of her business? These are the interactions that you will need to minimize, preferably by moving to email or text or Family Wizard.

I suspect she wants to engage to maintain some level of connection or control.

I lean toward "Thanks for your input." Repeat as needed. End the conversation. "Gotta go now."

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks as always. Eyesup the bat mitzvah was pretty good considering. I was grateful to myself for moving out in advance. It would’ve been awful to have still been there.

I got to figure the Low contact stuff out better. I keep telling myself that by playing along. I’m trying to establish a better relationship for my kids but then this morning she came over at 7 AM a fit on my front porch and then texted me all day now that the bat mitzvah is over, she has nothing else to put her mental energy on. If only she had a boyfriend and a job, the whole thing made me wonder if I made a mistake dropping the restraining order if only to just keep her off my damn porch.

[EyesUp]

Alley,

You’re recording, right?

Maybe add a Ring doorbell or similar…

[AlleyOop23]

Didn’t record that one but yeah I plan to get ring out there.

[zachira]

If you get a doorbell, get one you can easily turn off, so you don't have to listen to the continuous ringing or be disturbed when it does not suit you like woken up when you are sound asleep. Perhaps it is time to get the restraining order.

[kells76]

I got to figure the Low contact stuff out better. I keep telling myself that by playing along. I’m trying to establish a better relationship for my kids but then this morning she came over at 7 AM a fit on my front porch and then texted me all day now that the bat mitzvah is over, she has nothing else to put her mental energy on. If only she had a boyfriend and a job, the whole thing made me wonder if I made a mistake dropping the restraining order if only to just keep her off my damn porch.

What does the custody order/parenting plan say, if anything, about if/how parents interact?

Curious if there is any preexisting documentation governing parent behavior that you can point to.

If not, then yeah, time to discuss it with your L.

I understand wanting to keep things cool for the kids. Maybe there is a way to do both at the same time, something like

step 1, casual BIFF email (so it's documented) saying "Hi Kids' Mom, just a quick heads up that it doesn't work for me for us to have unplanned meetings, especially around my house. If you need to meet in person, please email me at least one day ahead of time. Please email me back by Day/Date if this works for you; if I don't hear back by then, I'll assume _______________ and will do _____________. Best, AlleyOop23". This gives her an "out" where she can be cooperative and save face,  before any legal escalation.

step 2, if she doesn't agree with that, you forward the email exchange to your L and say -- we need to get this locked down, is RO my next step or can you send a letter to her instead first.

step 3, if your L sends a letter and you don't get confirmation that she'll cooperate, then maybe time for the RO.

Balances you setting the tone of trying to keep things cool and cooperative, with you being willing to do what it takes to protect your space.

[AlleyOop23]

We’ve (she) agreed to parameters around each others houses. We’ll see how it goes.

Have a different issue though that I’d like some feedback on.

I’m done with the marriage and she isn’t. I suspect really what’s going on is that she’s in pain and she just wants that to stop it doesn’t matter what’s going on though. She keeps angling to get us back into therapy. Somewhere in there is the belief that if I could just “ Understand” Then I would have a lightbulb moment, An Epiphany, and become a person who would make her feel loved.

She sends me these long texts going over all the things I didn’t do or did that caused her pain and if I just truly understood how I caused everything then I guess I would realize that I could fix it all, and I would understand how.

I feel the obligation and the guilt and feel compelled to explain it to her in a way that she will understand. That’s of course impossible because she can’t internalize and has to deflect everything. I used to think that tendency was mean and manipulative and now it’s just kind of sad to me.

And yet I struggle to shed the compulsion to create closure in a way she can understand and I’m hoping someone on this board can send me the magic pill. Failing that perhaps some words of wisdom.

[EyesUp]

I feel the obligation and the guilt and feel compelled to explain it to her in a way that she will understand. That’s of course impossible because she can’t internalize and has to deflect everything. I used to think that tendency was mean and manipulative and now it’s just kind of sad to me.

And yet I struggle to shed the compulsion to create closure in a way she can understand and I’m hoping someone on this board can send me the magic pill. Failing that perhaps some words of wisdom.

Alley, mazel tov on the bat mitzvah.

There's no magic pill - just like everything else, all you can do is practice, develop skills, and then put them to use. So here's the straight talk express...

You need to accept two things:
1) You can't change her. You know this, and yet your words suggest that you're still hoping for something to change...
2) You can change you. You seem to want this, and you've already started to do a lot of new things - there's a lot of change in your life - congratulations, you are on the path.

When you're feeling stuck or repeating old patterns (or she's repeating old patterns), scan the resources here:
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

Scroll down to the part about "Change Your Response, Change Your Life"

Also, keep in mind that engaging - responding - in any way may be rewarding bad behavior.

Your stbx is hanging on - any response to her outbursts and provocations probably has a different meaning for her ("he still cares" or "I can still get his attention") than it does for you ("I'm trying to get her to go away in peace with mutual understanding").

Try to look at these outbursts like a child's tantrum - your stbx wants attention, even if it's negative attention.

You need to put out the fire by removing the oxygen. In this case, the oxygen is your attention.

Grey rock, low contact, BIFF - give it a name - you need to shift your attention elsewhere, become a sphinx, only communicate in concise and factual ways.

Last thought for the moment - I know this isn't intuitive, but it's a strategy:

Consider family therapy - if there is a contentious custody process ahead, proactively doing this can be to your advantage.  It may also be beneficial to your kids as they go through the process and acclimate to the new family system.  If you propose this, it may be useful to show the court, downstream, that you are the one who is working on solutions and working in the kids' best interest.  In parallel, your stbx may also find enough engagement and attention in a family therapy setting to back off on her various requests for other forms of attention...

Hang in there!

[Kashi]

I tend to think the safe conversation works.

Because they yearn to be safe but aren't.  Then they have all kinds of behaviors to try and feel safe that aren't healthy.  

Like their impulses.

They know that what is happening, the way they are trying to acquire that kind loving security is compromising themselves or hurting someone else.  Not healthy.

It's a compulsion they can't stop.

So, I think a conversation about being safe works in some ways.   It identifies the situation as not emotionally safe, and they would agree.   Then it says that you care about their emotional safety which they see is a gesture of love.  If it is pointed out how there is hurt on both sides, they can even gather some relational to see that is true.

That can't happen when they are full flight.  But I think it can happen when they are coming down off that.

If no more damage is done.

What would I know though.  

I dunno.   It seems to be some middle ground they can understand.

[zachira]

It can sometimes help to remember that when she vents to you about her feelings that she is trying to get you to feel her overwhelming feelings for her. Realizing that listening to her criticism and complaints is not good for you nor is it good for her. Allow her to be an adult and take responsibility for her overwhelming feelings. It is good you are feeling sad for her which shows you are making progress in feeling less guilty about not enabling her. 

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks. I’ll check out the resources. The family therapy is actually something I’ll look at. I don’t think that’s counterintuitive at all. I had thought we couldn’t do that because she’s so damn angry the kids will just watch her vent but then I realize I don’t really know the process and have a limited notion that somehow it’s the entire family sitting around with a therapist, having a dialogue in the room rather than breaking off as Individuals or in pairs.