Is he trying to get me to break up with him?

[MockingbirdHL]

During my dBPDH outbursts and then silent treatment (away from me physically and NC) I often wonder, is he TRYING to get ME to break up with him?  And therefore fulfil his own prophesy?  i.e. I KNEW she couldn't be trusted, look, she left me! ?

During these times I cycle back and forth between hurt and angry.  Why is he doing this to me?  to Why am I putting up with this?  Because I love him ... .  thats what we all say.  And we mean it, otherwise we would be LONG GONE, right?

I've heard his promises "this won't happen again" ... .  it does

I've heard his apologies "I'm sorry you have to put up with my behavior" ... .  but he rarely does anything to change it.

Does he actually want me to give up?  Sometimes I feel like I want to, just to make it STOP ... .  but I don't.

My friends asked me what it's like during these times ... .  I said I imagine its like when the police are interrogating a suspect and they beat them down emotionally so hard that they end up making a false confession.  I can totally understand how that happens now ... .  I just want to say "what do you want to me to say to make this stop?  It'll probably be a lie, but I'll say it if you stop."

But again, I don;t.

[patientandclear]

The way of looking at this that makes the most sense to me is that pwBPD are going to keep looking for disappointment until they find it.

That means you can never pass a test.

If they do something intolerable and you draw a boundary or put your foot down, then, there you go: you were not "the one" because you were controlling, wouldn't let him be him, etc.

If they do something intolerable and you tolerate it, though, two things: (i) it seems to me that leads them to conclude there is something wrong with you because you tolerated the intolerable -- buttressing their suspicion that only weak, flawed or naive people would put up with them; and (ii) the test will just get harder next time.

I've come to see that my uBPDex is so certain he will be disappointed by people, especially intimate partners, that he will not stop looking until he finds that disappointment.  Mistrust accumulates but trust does not.  It doesn't matter how many wonderful ways you've proven you care and are trustworthy -- they know they will find the betrayal if they look hard enough and when they can't find it, it feels like you are tricking them somehow.  My ex eventually got to the point of saying he felt I had a hidden agenda with him, despite my having honored every boundary he said he needed, and stuck it out with him despite really significant betrayals.  After the nicest times, where I bent over backwards to show how much I was listening to him & how much I valued him and his interests and opinions, he would find one little thing that he thought indicated otherwise, and get completely focused on that.

So I think with many pwBPD, yes, they are pushing you to fail them ... .  the trick of course is that no matter how perfect your performance, they will still find you to have failed eventually.

[seeking balance]

During my dBPDH outbursts and then silent treatment (away from me physically and NC) I often wonder, is he TRYING to get ME to break up with him?  And therefore fulfil his own prophesy?  i.e. I KNEW she couldn't be trusted, look, she left me! ?

sometimes, yes this is happening.  It is projecting his abandonment scenario on to you.

During these times I cycle back and forth between hurt and angry.  Why is he doing this to me?  to Why am I putting up with this?  Because I love him ... .  thats what we all say.  And we mean it, otherwise we would be LONG GONE, right?

Well, I suppose it depends on the definition of love.  It also depends on whether we are practicing radical acceptance and choose to accept this scenario is going to happen from time to time, thus, how to detach until the storm is over.

I've heard his promises "this won't happen again" ... .  it does

I've heard his apologies "I'm sorry you have to put up with my behavior" ... .  but he rarely does anything to change it.

Do you have a real boundary around his behavior - an actual line in the sand?

Does he actually want me to give up?  Sometimes I feel like I want to, just to make it STOP ... .  but I don't.

Is he in therapy getting proper help for his behavior?

My friends asked me what it's like during these times ... .  I said I imagine its like when the police are interrogating a suspect and they beat them down emotionally so hard that they end up making a false confession.  I can totally understand how that happens now ... .  I just want to say "what do you want to me to say to make this stop?  It'll probably be a lie, but I'll say it if you stop."

But again, I don;t.

People often ask here "how do you know when you are done."  I remember saying those very lines myself and honestly the answer is - you will know when you do.

Until then, what kind of things do you do to recharge your own batteries when these things happen?

[whatathing]

Thank you, patientandclear. You totally hit on the spot, and I felt relieved to read what you said. I was wondering today what did I do wrong, how could she just through away, for no reason, such a great thing we had, one in a million, and how could she go mess with another guy so shortly after, what was wrong with me? And what you said makes so much sense. It´s just like that. Thanks

[MockingbirdHL]

Seeking Balance - I am trying to practice radical acceptance; knowing this is how he is and trying to learn how best to live with it.  I'm feeling pretty detached right now, but he's in another state for work not talking to me.

I have not set a real boundary. If given the chance I will do that.

He was in therapy earlier this year. On his own with his Dr. And both of us together with another Dr. I believed it was really helping and he said he did too. We haven't been in two months though. When we were going he was better about talking things through before they went too far ... .  Not now though. In his latest outburst he said therapy wasn't helping and started using everything I'd said in those sessions as ammunition against me. Then he said they helped us communicate but didn't resolve anything. We only went three times!  I wanted to say therapy won't resolve your trust issues, it'll just teach us how to handle them better, but he was already so disconnected ... .  If he does come back, therapy is a MUST.

When he has an outburst HE leaves. He's out of town four to five days a week anyway. So I'm left here trying not to obsess over something I can't control (his thoughts, feelings, behavior).   I guess I'm "lucky" he doesn't tell me he hates me even during his rages; he doesn't say I'm a horrible person etc. instead he insinuates those things by saying "I can't trust you", "I've tried to accept the fact that you're going to lie to me and hide things from me" etc.

Naturally he has trust issues with EVERYONE.  Everyone he loves leaves him - his parents divorced when he was young, his clinically depressed mother left and he hasn't had contact with her in almost twenty years, his only sibling committed suicide, his ex wife cheated on him, so did his two subsequent girlfriends (he says) and now there's me ... .  

[Billa]

The way of looking at this that makes the most sense to me is that pwBPD are going to keep looking for disappointment until they find it.

That means you can never pass a test.

If they do something intolerable and you draw a boundary or put your foot down, then, there you go: you were not "the one" because you were controlling, wouldn't let him be him, etc.

If they do something intolerable and you tolerate it, though, two things: (i) it seems to me that leads them to conclude there is something wrong with you because you tolerated the intolerable -- buttressing their suspicion that only weak, flawed or naive people would put up with them; and (ii) the test will just get harder next time.

.

So I think with many pwBPD, yes, they are pushing you to fail them ... .  the trick of course is that no matter how perfect your performance, they will still find you to have failed eventually.

I agree, the same happened to me. He pushed and pushed and pushed and when he finally had made it so intolerable to me that I should set a boundary not to become crazy he exactly accused me of not respecting his way of being and trying to control him.  And got NC. While, previously, whenever I failed to do it and tolerated very hard stuff, he told me that the fact that I was tolerating made him uncomfortable, as it meant that I was as flawed as he was. No way out, no.

[hellokitty4]

The way of looking at this that makes the most sense to me is that pwBPD are going to keep looking for disappointment until they find it.

That means you can never pass a test.

I've come to see that my uBPDex is so certain he will be disappointed by people, especially intimate partners, that he will not stop looking until he finds that disappointment.  Mistrust accumulates but trust does not.  It doesn't matter how many wonderful ways you've proven you care and are trustworthy -- they know they will find the betrayal if they look hard enough and when they can't find it, it feels like you are tricking them somehow.  My ex eventually got to the point of saying he felt I had a hidden agenda with him, despite my having honored every boundary he said he needed, and stuck it out with him despite really significant betrayals.  After the nicest times, where I bent over backwards to show how much I was listening to him & how much I valued him and his interests and opinions, he would find one little thing that he thought indicated otherwise, and get completely focused on that.

So I think with many pwBPD, yes, they are pushing you to fail them ... .  the trick of course is that no matter how perfect your performance, they will still find you to have failed eventually.

I am sad that anything I do or say, she will find something to be disappointed in. She will pickup on the negative instead of the positive. She will read a text from me and she will find something to be disappointed about. She will hear a song and even when the song is a positive song, she will somehow take lyrics out of context and spin it as a negative.

Today I told her that I would like for her to come over to my house. I was going on a business trip but it got planned and cancelled before I was able to tell her. Somehow she picked up that I hid it from her. A normal person would have said "great! let's do something together since you don't have to go to work." We have been going through a rough spot [what else is new?] but working through them or so I thought. At one point this weekend I asked her if she wanted me to go away [to leave the relationship]. Her response was "No, no I don't want you to go away because I will miss you. I would rather stay mad at you and know that you will be there." Sounded like a child.

Our friendship has turned more intimate... .  last Sunday unknown to me she wanted to come into my house to have sex. But she never once gave me any indication as she dropped me off to take her kids to a party. We actually had made plans to have lunch at my house and then she changed them so I thought, so much for having time alone. We ran her errands, had lunch and she took me back home. Later on, she let me know how disappointed she was that I didn't want it bad enough. Asked me why I didn't ask her to come in. I reminded her of our previous conversations about her guilt and the guilt she will have after we have sex. Her response threw me off... .  "When I'm in the moment, I can't think of the guilt or the consequences. I never think of consequences as long as I get what I want." And when she doesn't get what she wants she gets very angry.

My close friends say I should just leave. I should but the love I feel for her is very strong that I find myself detaching yet cannot imagine a life without her. Even though I see so many things wrong with her, even though she make my life miserable. I just can't seem to pull away. When I tried to give her space, she comes running back. I sense she doesn't really know what she wants.

so sad, so frustrating, heartwrenching. yet there are times when I just say "f*&k it just let her go... .  "

[seeking balance]

There is no doubt being in a BPD relationship is challenging.

A key trait it takes for those who are successful are the ability to set strong, clear boundaries.  These boundaries are not punishments, used to control someone else - they are for you.  The are there so you protect yourself.

Understanding the reality of BPD means we must adjust our expectations accordingly.

If they do something intolerable and you draw a boundary or put your foot down, then, there you go: you were not "the one" because you were controlling, wouldn't let him be him, etc.

Waiting for intolerable to happen is too late - using the tools - DEARMAN, you explain the boundaries and the consequences first... .  like you do a 4 year old.  You do not have this conversation when your partner is triggered, it happens in a relatively calm environment. 

If they do something intolerable and you tolerate it, though, two things: (i) it seems to me that leads them to conclude there is something wrong with you because you tolerated the intolerable -- buttressing their suspicion that only weak, flawed or naive people would put up with them; and (ii) the test will just get harder next time.

If this is how you truly see this person?

There are shades of grey to this and most pwBPD who do stay in treatment and recover have a very strong support system, people who are clear on what they can and cannot tolerate - it is these boundaries that give a pwBPD the guideposts as they practice their skills.

After the nicest times, where I bent over backwards to show how much I was listening to him & how much I valued him and his interests and opinions, he would find one little thing that he thought indicated otherwise, and get completely focused on that.

Well, bending over backwards sounds like you were loosening your boundaries perhaps... .  I dunno, but it is very important to keep in mind that when a pwBPD is triggered nothing you say will be right.  This is a fact of the disorder and taking these things personally is only going to continue the victim (both of you) dynamic.  In these situations where you know you are being "wonderful" and your pwBPD is still being a ... .  brat (for lack of better word) setting a boundary of taking some time to yourself works wonders.  Again, it is working within the disorder versus not accepting the limitations that can happen from time to time.

So I think with many pwBPD, yes, they are pushing you to fail them ... .  the trick of course is that no matter how perfect your performance, they will still find you to have failed eventually.

It is a slippery slope to think we must be perfect - we are flawed and do the best we can... .  as are they.

Failure is a part of life, how we learn to cope with it is really key.  As hard as it is, remembering BPD is a serious mental illness and if we are going to be in this relationship - the ability to remain detached, have a very strong sense of self that is not tied to the pwBPD and boundaries are so important.

P&C, you relate so well how you felt during the times you feel wronged - beautifully articulated.   Using your words, I wanted to show others how to apply some actions to making changes - the changes that are going to be required to have some stability ourselves in staying in a BPD relationship.  No doubt leaving is an option - but people do stay for many reasons and can have some peace if we can detach enough. 

[seeking balance]

Seeking Balance - I am trying to practice radical acceptance; knowing this is how he is and trying to learn how best to live with it.  I'm feeling pretty detached right now, but he's in another state for work not talking to me.

That is ok, this gives you some time to get some strength so you can be clear on what you want.

I have not set a real boundary. If given the chance I will do that.

Might I suggest, use DEARMAN from the staying board.  I would even practice this here, so you can get feedback from some of the stayers who use these tools to communicate their needs and feelings - it really is a good tool - I use it not just with pwBPD now.

He was in therapy earlier this year. On his own with his Dr. And both of us together with another Dr. I believed it was really helping and he said he did too. We haven't been in two months though.

why did you both stop going?

When we were going he was better about talking things through before they went too far ... .  Not now though. In his latest outburst he said therapy wasn't helping and started using everything I'd said in those sessions as ammunition against me. Then he said they helped us communicate but didn't resolve anything. We only went three times!  I wanted to say therapy won't resolve your trust issues, it'll just teach us how to handle them better, but he was already so disconnected ... .  If he does come back, therapy is a MUST.

As hard as it is, letting him have his own reality when triggered is a must.  You don't have to agree or validate it as right, but validating he may feel that way right now can work wonders in calming him down... .  it is ok to agree to disagree.  You don't even have to say that to him - simply, "I can see you feel that way right now, that must be upsetting to you as it is to me that we are in this place right now." 

Now, couples therapy doesn't work great unless you are using a dbt approach - The High Conflict Couple uses this approach.

In my marriage, we went to MC and each had a T, she also had a P by the end.  I know how challenging MC is when someone keeps changing the rules depending on the day.  I can remember my pwBPD literally changing the outcome or homework as she wanted as soon as we got home - it was very frustrating.  If MC is a must have for you - be clear on why and what techniques the therapist is using.

When he has an outburst HE leaves. He's out of town four to five days a week anyway. So I'm left here trying not to obsess over something I can't control (his thoughts, feelings, behavior).   I guess I'm "lucky" he doesn't tell me he hates me even during his rages; he doesn't say I'm a horrible person etc. instead he insinuates those things by saying "I can't trust you", "I've tried to accept the fact that you'going to lie to me and hide things from me" etc.

Mine became a leaver too - I hated it.  It pushed every "not good enough" button that I had.  Eventually, I had to put a boundary there because I couldn't do that rollarcoaster - it was too much for me.  Before I could however, I had to understand what was needed for pwBPD during the timeout and be willing to do that at home.  Do you know what he does when he leaves and what happens emotionally for him?  This is information a good T or MC can gain access to and replace this maladaptive coping skill with some other coping skill that will work for you both.

Naturally he has trust issues with EVERYONE.  Everyone he loves leaves him - his parents divorced when he was young, his clinically depressed mother left and he hasn't had contact with her in almost twenty years, his only sibling committed suicide, his ex wife cheated on him, so did his two subsequent girlfriends (he says) and now there's me ... .  

For him, this is very real - his feelings are real and they are based in facts for him.  Until he deals with his unresolved issues on this stuff, he likely will continue to leave as it is something he can control when he feels so out of control.  I know this hurts you, trust me, I know how hard it is to watch someone leave and in doing so, is destroying your marriage.

The early times of T for anyone are very very difficult.  Many couples do live apart during this time because BOTH must change.  One of the best success stories is by a member named Steph - if you get a chance to read her journey it is very eye-opening on how much self work is actually required on the non too.

Nothing about this process - staying or leaving - is going to be easy.  Take this time to really recharge your batteries.  Look over to the steps on the right of this page - brutal honesty in steps 4 and 5 are critical to choosing the path that is right for you.

Peace,

SB

[MockingbirdHL]

SB - thanks for your advice. I'll look up DEARMAN as soon as I finish this reply.

Why did we stop going to therapy?  Several reasons.

He was actually seeing a psychiatrist. She has a long history with his family. He would go intermittently - usually after a particularly bad time. He told me he liked her and trusted her. I encouraged him to go as needed. She asked to see me. He said he was ok with it. I went. I liked her too. We then went to see her together once. I thought that was helpful. I thought he did too. She suggested fish oil to him - he cant take any medications because of his job - and he took it for a while. Im pretty sure he has stopped that. We had another session scheduled but she cancelled. His schedule got in the way (hardly ever home). A month or so goes by and we find out she has pled guilty to health insurance fraud. Immediately he paints her black so that's the end of that.

We were also seeing a MC who has significant experience with BPD. We saw him twice and I felt good after each session. Again it was difficult to line up his schedule with the MC's schedule. Again we had another session set up but I had to cancel this one due to a sudden death in the family the same morning we were due to go. Scheduling issues prevented us from making another appt. Truthfully, we didn't really TRY that hard because everything felt good and time was so tight.

So here we are.

I'm not exactly sure what he does when he leaves. I THINK he just removes himself from my presence and continues the battle raging in his head until one side wins out. My fear is that being away from me makes him feel calmer in those times and he will associate calm with distance from me.  I fear that he just goes on with his life acting like nothing is happening whereas I am left behind and EVERYONE can tell that something's wrong (my friends anyway).

I do believe that he is cognizant enough to realize that if he stays he will say something he will regret. Of course he should regret a lot of what he says during those times, but its not everything. I think he needs the space to try to regain control of his thoughts, but I think all it does is give him time to ruminate over everything.

I'd like to know what happens for him emotionally during those times of separation. I'll ask if I ever get a chance.

[seeking balance]

I can relate to scheduling issues and life being calm ... .  then time goes by and yet a bigger blowup.

Leaving was hard on me, same fears as you - I do know some folks on staying have managed to get ok with that as a coping style.  Do you have a T of your own that may be able to help you with your own issues on this subject?  It is better he leave than rage on you - that honestly is preferable and in DBT they even teach this rather than raging or other destructive behaviors.

So, here we are - on undecided.  I found this the hardest place to be... .  staying has clear tools and path as does leaving.

Fundamentally, I believe the choosing a path to the right really does work... .  taking the time and rigorous honesty in the steps will give you a path.  I have seen folks post it here as they go through it and I do encourage this.

Taking care of you right now - what does that look like?  posting here - what other things do you do to balance out?

[MockingbirdHL]

I keep hanging onto the hope that leaving is better than staying and raging. Hoping that he realizes I am respecting his boundaries by not trying to initiate contact with him. Honestly also hoping that the inconvenience of leaving, REALLY leaving and moving furniture etc. will be too much for him, but also internally recognizing that that is not a good reason to stay; in fact probably the worst reason to stay.

But I've been here before - five days of silence = breakup. But we weren't married or living together then. Does that make a difference?  I don't know ... .  

I'm trying to focus on the things that I do enjoy during this period. Gym time. Spending quality time with my daughter, etc.  Trying not to focus on worst case scenario (almost impossible for me).  I don't obsess over the terrible what ifs when he's regulated; but when he dysregulates that's exactly where my mind goes. Because of his actions in the past. Because of my own insecurities, my intense fear of failure. If our marriage breaks down, I'll feel like I failed.

[seeking balance]

I'm trying to focus on the things that I do enjoy during this period. Gym time. Spending quality time with my daughter, etc.  Trying not to focus on worst case scenario (almost impossible for me). 

this is healthy stuff and good 

I don't obsess over the terrible what ifs when he's regulated; but when he dysregulates that's exactly where my mind goes. Because of his actions in the past. Because of my own insecurities, my intense fear of failure. If our marriage breaks down, I'll feel like I failed.

My perfectionism and fear of failure had me hold on way longer than what I would advise someone else to do... .  I truly believed that love could conquer all - having to accept that this was beyond love was a big, bitter pill for me.

What I can tell you is this - do what you can for as long as you can.  If marriage is a core value for you, it is fundamental to the way you see yourself and this is important.  I remember wondering how long I could do it, and one of my good friends said, "you will know when you know" - it was true.

The tools on the staying board are really good.  You likely can use them to have conversations getting you H to look into new therapists maybe ... .  the thing is, he doesn't like having to leave either... .  depending upon his shame tolerance he may want to change this behavior - he can only  commit to changing if he really wants to - that part is a stable fact in my years of research on this subject.

take good care of you 

[MockingbirdHL]

SB - thanks. I do intend to do what I can for as long as I can. I hope he gives me that chance. I keep thinking IF he comes back and says he is out, can I just say "No, no you're not. We made a commitment and we need to try and fulfill that."  In the past (in past relationships) I've realized I've given up too easily and too soon. But I'm older now and I'm NOT going to set that example for my daughter. Or his. I told him at the beginning I was in this for the long haul and I meant it. Although if he just goes, what can I do about it?

My friends say "He won't really leave" and "He has too much invested in the relationship to just leave" and "He always comes back". They're right so far on the last one - he does. Sometimes it's hours, sometimes days, sometimes weeks and once even months. But I am not so sure this time. It's been years since we went several days with NC at all.   The last time resulted in the several months apart.