Figuring out what I've learned

[Depression = 72% of members]

SD25 is clinging at a gathering. You say, "SD25, I am going to circulate and have some conversations -- why don't you do the same."

I could really use you at these gatherings 

What do you see as unkind in those statements? (Assume the tone of voice is appropriate.)

Sometimes I just can't think how to say things that well, at least not in the moment.

I'm also driven by guilt. I don't want to be around her, so I overcompensate and choose to stand there to disprove this fact. Like a lot of people with BPD traits, I know SD25 is scanning to find facts to support feelings (of rejection/abandonment) she experiences. I suspect she can tell I am not a fan.

I need a cheat sheet in my pocket for phrases. I don't know why it's so hard to come up with them on my own. When I do, it takes a lot of mulling things over in my mind to find ones that are socially acceptable.

It makes me realize one of the reasons I allow these situations to occur is because I don't want a heart to heart with her. Partly because I don't want things to go sideways and end up in an H-LnL-SD25 triangle. Partly because past experience tells me SD25 does not have the maturity for these conversations to be authentic or genuine. And part of it is a grudge. She has said and done things that I can forgive but not forget.

Have you ever felt it was hard to have eye contact with someone because of your feelings towards them? That sometimes happens to me with SD25. I have feelings of repulsion toward her at times and I have guilt about that.

Being rude-kind feels like dangerous territory that could expose my true feelings. 

[livednlearned]

SD25 is clinging at a gathering. You say, "SD25, I am going to circulate and have some conversations -- why don't you do the same."

I could really use you at these gatherings 

What do you see as unkind in those statements? (Assume the tone of voice is appropriate.)

Sometimes I just can't think how to say things that well, at least not in the moment.

I'm also driven by guilt. I don't want to be around her, so I overcompensate and choose to stand there to disprove this fact. Like a lot of people with BPD traits, I know SD25 is scanning to find facts to support feelings (of rejection/abandonment) she experiences. I suspect she can tell I am not a fan.

I need a cheat sheet in my pocket for phrases. I don't know why it's so hard to come up with them on my own. When I do, it takes a lot of mulling things over in my mind to find ones that are socially acceptable.

It makes me realize one of the reasons I allow these situations to occur is because I don't want a heart to heart with her. Partly because I don't want things to go sideways and end up in an H-LnL-SD25 triangle. Partly because past experience tells me SD25 does not have the maturity for these conversations to be authentic or genuine. And part of it is a grudge. She has said and done things that I can forgive but not forget.

Have you ever felt it was hard to have eye contact with someone because of your feelings towards them? That sometimes happens to me with SD25. I have feelings of repulsion toward her at times and I have guilt about that.

Being rude-kind feels like dangerous territory that could expose my true feelings. 

[GaGrl]

Hey, sweetie, just tell me where and when to show up, and I can be your wing-woman! We would have SUCH a good time. Your fam wouldn't know what hit them.

I can remember the early years of our marriage... I had to resist feelings of guilt/weirdness/ whatever because I sat in the front seat of the f-ing car while his early 20s daughter sat in the back seat. It was a huge change for her yet so natural for me. Fortunately, she was not PD but rather mild anxiety and depression, and she worked through Daddy having a primary partner pretty well. Awkward moments, though.

[Notwendy]

I can so relate to your feelings.

As to different definitions of "being rude" - I think that' accurate but I also think in the mind of a BPD person it's different for their behaviors and other people's behaviors. My mother can say a string of verbal insults- that somehow doesn't seem wrong to her. However one little slight on our part becomes something horrible to her.

I think we need to stay with our own definition and values. If we try to change that to match theirs- we can't - because of these differences and also if we do, we will know we compromised our own. Every faith tradition has some version of the Golden Rule and I think "treat someone the way you wish to be treated" is a good one to go by.

It was in recovery work that I understood to include myself in this. I had a sponsor who "turned the mirror" on me and it felt rough at times to have her do that, and now, I am grateful for that, because I learned that it isn't kind to enable people- because it's not kind to enable their rude behavior. A sort of "appeal to their higher selves". So while my mother reacts with anger and hurt at my boundaries - the other choice, enabling her to be an abusive person isn't being kind. Being kind to myself includes not allowing someone to treat me poorly.

A version of "tough love" I guess.

But also choose your battles. If it's a couple of days, I default to appeasement sometimes because it takes a lot of emotional energy to resist her dynamics and two days isn't going to make much difference in them. As a result, I know that she's going to "win" some conflicts because I don't want to get into them but by choosing to default on some things, I know I have made that choice.

However, sometimes I need to hold my grounds and so yes, it is good to rehearse some phrases- yet in the moment, we feel unsettled- we will be taken off guard because of the covertness. I have felt upset with myself when I realize this but again, we can't always predict covert behavior. I think the best phrases to practice are "time out" ones and how to get a few moments to yourself. "Thank you, I need to think about that". "Oh that buffet table looks good- I am going to check this out" ( and excuse yourself). Even if you have to go hide in a restroom stall to compose yourself- that is OK.

 

[pursuingJoy]

It makes me realize one of the reasons I allow these situations to occur is because I don't want a heart to heart with her.

She's not wired for a heart to heart to work. Any conversation will just fuel the next conflict, like you said, 'scanning.'

Have you ever felt it was hard to have eye contact with someone because of your feelings towards them? That sometimes happens to me with SD25. I have feelings of repulsion toward her at times and I have guilt about that.

YES

I struggleto make eye contact with MIL for the same reasons. I think I feel that the moment I engage, she can 'read' me andvthat'sblood in the water. I do the same with my stepdaughter, who treats her mother horribly. It's a way to maintain what feels like a safe distance.

If boundaries are about keeping us in our own yard, that means they're more about our limitations than the other person's behavior. I accept that I'm easily triggered and upset by MIL's behavior. I accept that I've been hurt by her and still carry that residue. I accept that I am not in the best position to love her, in fact my very existence triggers her fear of abandonment. It doesn't mean I can't learn or grow or challenge myself. I am simply accepting what is true today and that is humbling.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Interesting about the eye contact.

I also don't want to make eye contact with my mother. But force myself to, because her worsts lash-outs often follow in reaction to me not making eye contact or trying to ignore her behavior. She needs to be seen so much, it is exhausting.

She gets all weirded out when I am not actively putting an interest in her. And when I do, I end up feeling completely drained and empty.

No safe middle ground it seems. Always on the edge of another impulsive rage.

[livednlearned]

just tell me where and when to show up, and I can be your wing-woman!

  I'm not kidding when I say that many of you are with me in these interactions. I cannot even begin to describe how much I've learned from you and others here over the years.

I learned that it isn't kind to enable people- because it's not kind to enable their rude behavior.

It isn't kind to enable people is a good way to think about it. I'm not doing SD25 any favors by pretending her behaviors are ok, even if I'm pretending we're ok.

Is it accurate to say that there may be double standards in a BPD relationship and that's ok? Because that's what I'm starting to think. I have a definition of rude/kind that is wildly different than how BPD25 sees things.

The one thing I am determined to not have happen, and this is the source of what constrains much of my own behavior (and frankly narrows some of my choices) is that I do not want SD25 to run to H with a complaint about something I've done or said in a 1:1.

I refuse to be in a position where H wants me to talk to SD25 or god forbid apologize.

To do so is the mother of all paydays for SD25.

That's why I think "how about write it down" shines light on SD25 maneuvers. It removes the 1:1 dynamic that feels like win/lose. Or worse, turns into a triangulation with H that is a win/lose/lose. Asking her to write it down makes it so she would have to commit to her words, it puts them on paper (which might be shared with H), and creates a nice exit strategy in the moment.

She's not wired for a heart to heart to work. Any conversation will just fuel the next conflict, like you said, 'scanning.'

So nicely said, pj. She is not wired for it. For years, that is how I kept getting turned around and kicked. Thinking she was wired for it because she was talking like she was.

I feel that the moment I engage, she can 'read' me and that's blood in the water.

Exactly. I keep myself moving and busy when SD25 is around. Slowing down makes it easier for her to make a move.

I also notice that I have some foo baggage here. I was told, "Look at me when I'm talking to you" as a kid a lot. It feels like eye contact is supposed to demonstrate something -- I don't know exactly what. I think I have more eye contact with people and it feels like it's out of a sense of obligation. I probably don't need to have eye contact with SD25 as much as I think I do.

Maybe I'll wear sunglasses the whole visit. 

[pursuingJoy]

We're naming this operation (I mean visit) #teamsunglasses

[kells76]

This seems like a core thing -- that you don't want SD25 going to H complaining about something between just you and her, and then H coming to you wanting you to "make it better".

It almost sounds "worse" to have H come to you saying "please apologize to SD25", than the initial interaction with SD25 & you.

Is that close?

I am reflecting on my own experience, so if any of this isn't close, feel free to set it aside.

If it were me, I would feel -- I don't know if "betrayed" is too strong, but something like "inescapably forced to witness/participate in toxicity" if DH did that.

If I felt like I could predictably trust DH to respond healthily, I would feel way less anxiety around the kids. Sometimes he is fine, but sometimes he "devolves" into JADEing when they bring up certain topics, and I often feel emotionally trapped (like I should stay to try to salvage things) or literally trapped (stuck in a room away from the door, or in the truck on the highway). I am dealing this year with feelings of wanting to do unhealthy drastic things (jumping out of the truck) to get away from the imported dysfunction.

If I had to stay in a house with H & SD25, it would be easier if I felt like I could trust H to not triangulate. If I thought that even if I told him explicitly "don't bring SD25's complaints to me, she needs to do that with me herself", but I wasn't sure if he would predictably follow through, I would be anxious and on edge the whole time even more so than from SD25's drama - the thought or fear that I could not trust H or rely on him.

Anyway, that may be overstating things -- but the concepts of trust, and also of inescapable exposure to dysfunction, came to mind. Wondering if those are the bigger issues? Like of you and H were solidly on the same page about extinguishing triangles before they started, would that take the trip intensity from a 9.5 to a 6?

[Notwendy]

Like Kells, I also picked up on the triangle and possible request to apologize to D25. I think this needs to be addressed with your H. If D25 comes to him with some made up complaint or imagined slight and he "takes her side" I see where this is hurtful to you. This is classic triangle dynamics.

My BPD mother does this. She sees people as "on her side" or "not her side". A frequent triangle was for her to feel like a victim due to something I didn't do or did ( her interpretation of it) and go to my father. My father would take on rescuer position and then be angry at me.

This was hard to change. This kind of pattern had been established between them for probably the whole time they were together. I had to also realize it wasn't as much about me as them- how they related to each other and to other people.

Your H has probably been in this pattern with his D25 for the whole of their relationship. The beginning is natural. A father is going to protect his baby girl. You mentioned your H has worked on co-dependency. He has likely over functioned in this area. In addition, if her mother has BPD, he probably took on this role with her, and also may feel guilty for the impact of the marital difficulties and his D25's emotional issues- even if he wasn't the whole cause of them.

Basically, this is your H's triangle, not yours. It's not possible to control what D25 says to him about you or how your H reacts to that. I think the focus needs to be on what you can control and how you can stay out of this triangle as much as possible. I think this needs to be discussed with your H ahead of time, the triangle, how you feel about it. The pull of the triangle for him may be strong and not even related to D25. Triangle dynamics are like that.

I mentioned before that my H's family seems to have unspoken rules and my H was concerned about offending his family. I have not ever intentionally done something to offend them. Quite the opposite- I have made the effort to get along with them. Yet somehow my H would accuse me of offending them sometimes and I had no idea. Through co-dependency work, I learned that I can't control what he or they may be thinking. I can try to not offend them but if somehow they are offended- that is on them. I can't read their minds. It's their responsibility to discuss this with me if it's an issue ( they didn't).

I had to stay to my own ideas of what happened. So one time, I had just bought a present for my MIL that I thought she'd like when my H said I was rude to his family and having my own boundaries, I thought what BS. I had just done the opposite and I held that. I said " that's not true" and didn't discuss it further. This is his worry.  They aren't offended. It's his family stuff. Not mine.

Whatever goes on between your H and his D25 is his family dynamics. Not yours. She can go to him and tell him you are whatever she imagines. His response to it is his issue. I think it's important to be proactive and tell your H that if his D25 has an issue with you - then she needs to address it directly with you, not this indirect triangle where he tries to reel you in so he can be rescuer. I see where this bothers you. It's not your job to be the rescuer or scapegoat here. You don't have to go along with this.

[pursuingJoy]

What kells and NotWendy are noting about the triangle dynamics sure applied to me. I played my part in the triangle and tried to get H to see what was happening. I so wanted a shift in the dynamic, but it was too much to ask. H had been conditioned to rescue her since he was an infant. It was painful to accept reality and come up with an alternative solution, which was to set firm boundaries around MIL's access to me. I'm still smarting from what feels like betrayal. I say this to myself over and over: A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because her trust is not on the branch but in her own wings.

lnl, if you think this is relevant to your relationship, what are your options?

[livednlearned]

We're naming this operation (I mean visit) #teamsunglasses

 

you don't want SD25 going to H complaining about something between just you and her, and then H coming to you wanting you to "make it better".

It almost sounds "worse" to have H come to you saying "please apologize to SD25", than the initial interaction with SD25 & you.

Woo. Yes, this is very true.

I would feel -- I don't know if "betrayed" is too strong, but something like "inescapably forced to witness/participate in toxicity" if DH did that.

I hadn't thought about it but yes. Some of the toxicity is SD25 violating boundaries directly.  Some of the toxicity is SD25 violating a boundary through H. But if she does something and runs to H and he asks me to fix it, I lose my damn mind.

Because it'll be, "Please xyz (through gritted teeth) so I don't have a SD25 problem."

And I will cave.

And SD25 will be kicking up her heels.

the focus needs to be on what you can control and how you can stay out of this triangle as much as possible. I think this needs to be discussed with your H ahead of time, the triangle, how you feel about it

.

We seem to be beyond talking about it. This is what actually made me pull up my big girl panties and figure out how to have boundaries with H when he isn't able to have boundaries with SD25.

It's taken careful thought about what the common patterns are and how to nip them in the bud. I don't discuss this work with H because trial and error taught me that actual boundaries are more effective than discussing boundaries. Talking about boundaries just led to conflict and that's SD25's agenda. Get us arguing with each other and then have H pick her.

I wish I could say "I'm not apologizing to SD25" or insist he stay out of it, but past history tells me I would just do what he asked so we aren't in full-blown conflict. Which again, is gold for SD25.

Whatever goes on between your H and his D25 is his family dynamics. Not yours. She can go to him and tell him you are whatever she imagines. His response to it is his issue.

I agree. And I guarantee it would become our issue. Even if you and I know it's his. 

be proactive and tell your H that if his D25 has an issue with you - then she needs to address it directly with you, not this indirect triangle where he tries to reel you in so he can be rescuer

If this were to happen directly with SD25, I was planning to say, "How about write it down." Maybe that's the same response if H comes to me with the same kind of thing?

"Have her write it down. That way she can figure out where this is coming from -- we both know I haven't done anything to offend her. That way you and I can take a look and it's not me in a position where I'm at a loss. We'll be a united front on this."

I don't know for certain, but my hunch is that "writing it down" will feel like a lot of sunlight to SD25.

It isn't saying no, I don't want to talk (SD25 gets a hit of dopamine).
It isn't saying yes, I'll talk (SD25 gets a hit of dopamine).

It's saying, Whatever it is, let's get it out there where others can maybe weigh in.

At least I think that's what it says. It seems like something reasonable and normal to request given our history. I know that above all else, H wants to avoid conflict. Because I handle my own boundaries and have good responses to SD25, I think he has deep gratitude and respect for how I handle SD25 dynamics.

One thing your advice made me think of is SD25's intense somatic stuff and how to handle it. H knows I have limited capacity for listening to medical things and I worried that asking him to tone it down with SD25 would only cause her to escalate. Maybe, though, I can tell him I'll remove myself. I know he is beyond fed up with the rabbit hole of medical weirdness she is going down, but he cannot seem to stop himself from engaging. That's something I can tell him advance. "I know it's hard to put the brakes on it -- heads up that I'll probably take care of myself by walking away if it gets to be too much."

[Notwendy]

Because it'll be, "Please xyz (through gritted teeth) so I don't have a SD25 problem."
And I will cave.
And SD25 will be kicking up her heels.

This right here.

Now, I happened to have a tough love codependency sponsor who would have thrown this one at me if I had said that. Ouch! As much as it upset me, it made me aware of my role in perpetuating this kind of thing so it actually was a help to me, even if it wasn't easy to see.

Let's look at the gains from this interaction. A behavior doesn't continue unless the cost exceeds the gains. So let's look at gains and cost.

D25. Gains: she gets to be in her favorite role of victim and get Daddy's attention and sees that Daddy chooses her. She wins. Cost: nothing to her.

Your H. Gain: He gets to play rescuer role to D25. He's off the hook for any conflict with her. He's also off the hook with you since you are the more reasonable one and cave to please him. Between the two of you, she's the harder one to deal with.
Cost: he may feel a tinge of guilt about doing this but mostly the gain of dodging the bullet from D25 is greater than the guilt and he knows you aren't going to make a scene over it. Gain > Cost for him.

For both of them, there is no incentive to change these behaviors because they work to each of their advantages.

You: Gain is avoiding cost of conflict with H being a nice person and not having to rock the boat. Cost: a lot of resentment and feeling that D25 is one up on you. Also less regard for your H who once again, isn't able to stand up to his D25.

Your part- for you, it's weighing the cost of continuing this and the gains to you. The only change will come from you, since there is no incentive on their part to change their behavior. While you wish D25 would stop running to Daddy to rescue her and Daddy to stop leaning on you to help him be the rescuer, these are not behaviors you can control. They have no incentive to change their behaviors unless you up the cost to H which means to stop rescuing her and have the interaction between them be his problem - not yours.



If this is going to change, you need to stop enabling H to lean on you. It's the triangle. Lets do the roles:

D25 is victim. Runs to Daddy with you as persecutor. Daddy rescues her by asking you to apologize.

H comes to you to help him with this issue. D25 is being difficult. She is in persecutor position. H is victim -"poor me" help me so I don't have a problem with D12. You step in to rescue your H.

[livednlearned]

I see.

You're pointing out the costs/gains even if I maneuver to make sure these triangles don't occur in the first place.

Because the other cost is all this hand-wringing, trying to get this stuff figured out in advance. And while that's not nothing, and there are good skills coming by way of it, this prep does have a cost.

Yes?

Whereas if I am (let's say) more authentic about the formation of the triangle, I get to step up and change the triangle in real time. And that change gets them to change.

If I'm following, then that does turn the way I've been doing things on its head. It would be nice to not fret about things 5 months ahead of an event. 

Which, to be fair, is driven in part by some of the spill over from these nightly calls with SD25. Some weeks it feels like she lives here.

I would really have a hard choice to make. For the most part, I create a Teflon environment where nothing can stick. This has largely baffled SD25. And I do not meddle in H's relationship with SD25. Unless it affects me directly, in which case I use a lot of stealth or I remove myself or apply physical boundaries.

What you're suggesting means speaking more freely and letting the dynamic play out. Then dealing with the triangle in a more overt way.

And probably dealing with the short-term discomfort of vacation conflict because I wouldn't yield to bad behavior. 

[I Am Redeemed]

I've been following for a while. Lots of great advice here.

What struck me by "maneuvering to make sure those triangles don't occur in the first place" is that 1) that sounds exhausting and energy-sucking 2) that would be a huge cost if it were me and 3) I think you hit the nail on the head.

If you switch tactics from stealth and maneuvering to ward off unhealthy dynamics caused by the behavior of two other people, it would seem to be setting yourself free from the anxiety of figuring out how to continue using avoidance as a strategy.

Are you super hung up on the idea that SD25 "wins" if she creates conflict between you and H through triangulation?

Could you reframe this as not a "real win" since taking away the effectiveness of this behavior lops off a weapon she can weild?

[Notwendy]

What I meant by looking at the cost/benefit of the three of you in this triangle is that you have the largest cost when you rescue your H. D25 gets the emotional attention she wants, your H is off the hook of saying no to her and gets to look good. You are the one who then has to be the "bad person who needs to apologize" here. You do something you don't want to do, it feels inauthentic to you, and so you feel resentment.

My sponsor pointed out resentment as a cue to when we are acting in a co-dependent manner. It's not the action - we can do the same thing from a perspective of willingness and authenticity-apologize to someone if we feel we need to. But if we are playing into something -being inauthentic- doing something we don't want to do but we cave- we feel resentful.

It's the resentment that gives us the clue to what behaviors we need to change if we want to be less co-dependent.

Again, it's the choice- and being aware of the choice helps guide us. For instance, if I am spending one day with my mother, and she makes a request that I don't want to do, but it isn't a firm boundary- and I do it anyway to avoid a huge conflict- I may feel resentful but I choose this because it's not worth the conflict.

On the other hand, something that I have a firm boundary about- I will say no. I can not control her reaction and it may be hard to deal with, but I choose to keep my boundary and so, I don't feel resentment.

Usually after a short visit, and giving in to her requests, I feel a sense of "ickyness" because of the dynamics. I know I have played along and it feels inauthentic. But I choose to not rock the boat in a very short visit to avoid it escalating.

You know it is difficult to say no to your H if D25 comes to him with a complaint about you and he askes you to "go along with it" to make the situation easier - for him- and you do it. The change in this dynamic has to come from you because they both are getting something out of this while you are the one feeling resentful for it. They aren't. So this dynamic rests on you. Your H is avoiding the role of holding a boundary with his D25. He passes the ball to you. What will you do with it?

You have the ball here. It's your move...

[GaGrl]

What specific requests of SD25 make you feel "icky" when you capitulate?

[livednlearned]

Are you super hung up on the idea that SD25 "wins" if she creates conflict between you and H through triangulation?

Could you reframe this as not a "real win" since taking away the effectiveness of this behavior lops off a weapon she can weild?

I have to really think about this.

When SD25 lived with us, I had tire tracks up and down my back and could not figure out how it was happening. I was used to overt BPD with my ex and SD25 is covert. She would say "I think of you like a mom" and yet H and I were arguing daily about SD25 -- it put a huge strain on our marriage. So creating conflict between me and H is without question a page in SD25's playbook. Especially if the conflict is about her, and especially if H protects her.

I worked with a therapist to identify specific points of pain with S25 and slowly neutralized the conflict -- I say neutralize because there was some head-on conflict, both with SD25 and H. I can see how it might look like avoiding conflict, which in a sense it is, but the work with T was maybe a short-term reset to reclaim my house back and rebuild trust with H. SD25 is a huge drain for him, and when pushed to his limits, the things he says about SD25 are hard to hear. Like me, this is third-generation BPD and like me, our relationship is the first healthy, mutually respectful one he's had. This makes the BPD behaviors harder to bear and also, at least for me, possible to tolerate because I bring some health and strength (and skill) to the battle.

So yes, SD25 won when there was conflict between me and H. I guess the question is whether that is true now that our foundation is stronger. When I think about a scenario where H asks me to apologize to SD25, I wonder about just saying no thanks and letting them work it out -- chances are H will manage SD25 directly, and probably not super effectively, but I won't get dragged in. H might be irritated but he gets over stuff pretty quickly.

I do feel it's in my nature to think about this scenarios in advance because my default is to become somewhat paralyzed in the moment when there is aggression, covert or otherwise.

The work with T helped me feel empowered and effective -- I just hadn't thought about the cost and whether to reassess once the circumstances changed like they have (strong marriage, 3000 miles distance, short visit).

[Notwendy]

 I wonder about just saying no thanks and letting them work it out -- chances are H will manage SD25 directly, and probably not super effectively, but I won't get dragged in. H might be irritated but he gets over stuff pretty quickly.

This is the choice that has you out of the triangle. It also allows your H to take responsibility for his choices and to deal with his own fears and uncomfortable feelings. It's a choice that does not involve you taking him off the hook ( and so managing his feelings for him )

[livednlearned]

What I meant by looking at the cost/benefit of the three of you in this triangle is that you have the largest cost when you rescue your H.

I hadn't thought about this particular variation of the triangle.

I didn't think about me rescuing H.

I thought of it as neutralizing SD25 to protect my marriage.

We may be in a stable enough place that I can retire this perspective and see the rescue angle more clearly. It makes sense to me to shift perspective when the situation shifts or stabilizes.

My sponsor pointed out resentment as a cue to when we are acting in a co-dependent manner. It's not the action - we can do the same thing from a perspective of willingness and authenticity-apologize to someone if we feel we need to. But if we are playing into something -being inauthentic- doing something we don't want to do but we cave- we feel resentful.

That's excellent insight.

I have to think about this ... I feel less resentment in general about SD25 because 3000 miles of distance means less f2f interaction. I also feel less resentment in general because I took a giant step away and by my estimation, that left the entire emotional burden of her on H's shoulders, which led him to make changes, and those changes have been good for both of us.

But of course, I do still feel resentment toward SD25. It's inevitable when she visits. And I do resent her nightly calls to H because they interfere with our time together, although to H's credit, he contains her to a short window of time after he gets home from work. However, when she is in a full episode, there is no containing her. Full episodes happen roughly once a month and can last for weeks.

When a day goes by without anything from SD25, H will comment with surprise.

You know it is difficult to say no to your H if D25 comes to him with a complaint about you and he askes you to "go along with it" to make the situation easier - for him- and you do it. The change in this dynamic has to come from you because they both are getting something out of this while you are the one feeling resentful for it. They aren't. So this dynamic rests on you. Your H is avoiding the role of holding a boundary with his D25. He passes the ball to you. What will you do with it?

If that's the scenario that happens in the fall, my response -- based on feeling strong right now -- is to simply say no. That's the strongest response. After that is something along the lines of, Have her talk to me directly.

I think where all of this is going is authenticity. I struggle to feel authentic with SD25. I guess if I can't have an entirely authentic relationship, then I can at least say what feels authentic to H so we can learn each other better. Saying "I cannot authentically do that" isn't something I have ever said to H. But it's the truth.

What I'm gathering from all this is that I'm assuming that not being authentic with SD25 means I cannot be authentic with H. And that's something worth looking at more closely.

Thanks for walking me through this  

[Notwendy]

I can at least say what feels authentic to H so we can learn each other better. Saying "I cannot authentically do that" isn't something I have ever said to H. But it's the truth.

That is the goal of co-dependency work- to be more authentic and true to yourself. ( also using discretion- some things we shouldn't say "hey honey, this actor is so handsome in this movie" is probably better left unsaid  .)

But connection depends on being authentic- and so does our relationship with ourself. When we aren't being authentic, it feels like a betrayal to us- it diminishes our own self worth to ourselves.

This is a tough thing to do for those of us who have grown up with our own survival in our families depending on not being authentic, not paying attention to our own feelings. It feels selfish to pay attention to our own feelings because we were taught that it wasn't OK to do that. Our comfort zone is when we lean too far in the other direction- being concerned about how others feel, so pulling back feels uncomfortable- at first- not just to us, but the people we have been accommodating.

A counselor explained to me that a lot of things we do can either be co-dependently motivated or authentic. The clue is how we feel. When it's being co-dependent, we feel resentment, or "icky". When it's not, we don't,

We worked on the idea of "saying yes when we mean no" as being inauthentic. Now there are a lot of things people do that we may not want to do- but we are willing to do them. We might not want to go to work one day but we are willing to do this because we want to keep our jobs. We may not want to do the dishes, but we are willing to do them because we want clean dishes. And there are things we want to do and things we do not.

You do not want to be the go between ( rescuer-fixer ) in this triangle with your H and SD 25. Doing so results in your feeling resentment and that you were somehow used by your H to smooth things over with her. He stays "looking good" - she feels connected to him while you take the "wrong" position. That's your clue.

[livednlearned]

This is so helpful.

I have an example that comes to mind, if anyone can help me work through.

Last summer, SD25 came to visit. I work from home and H took time off during the week to fetch SD25 from the airport.

H said to me before picking her up, "I know you're working and I'll tell SD25 that -- but if you have a second to come out and say hi when she gets here, that would be great."

This is such a reasonable thing to ask but with years of built-up resentment toward SD25, including some egregious experiences when I was working at home (like walking into my office and holding up her phone to show me who she was face-timing while I was in a zoom meeting), I am at a loss how to transition into something less charged.

Walking into my bathroom while I got out of the shower happened. I cannot seem to let the shock of that go.

Meaning, there is normal resentment, and then there is this half-ton truck's worth of resentment toward her that I can't seem to set down.

Maybe there is no difference when it comes to authenticity? I chose to not come out and greet her because all my soldiers were in ready stance and that's a lot of energy to manage when it's something as simple as saying hello.

That's my side of the equation in not feeling able to have an authentic relationship with SD25.

So is this thing about not acting out of a place of resentment more about H and others? Otherwise I would speak more freely to SD25 about the things that feel like boundary violations to me.

It makes me realize I have "reasonable" boundary violations and then "unreasonable" which I seem to base on past transgressions that I perceive are not worth addressing directly -- in part because I don't have the skill to manage those interactions, at least not yet.

[Notwendy]

Otherwise I would speak more freely to SD25 about the things that feel like boundary violations to me.

But speaking might not be effective. It isn't effective with my mother. She will either act hurt, dissociate or rage. So I don't speak to her, not because I am afraid of her reaction but because it just isn't effective,

Actions are the only boundaries that work with her. If I don't want her looking through my belongings, I keep them locked around her. If I don't want her to share some personal information, I don't share it with her.

I think for you, it will be carving out some personal space in the house and if you don't want her to enter the room, lock the door.

Not to excuse her behavior of walking in on you when you want privacy- but it makes me wonder what her emotional age is. She may be physically 25 but these are the kinds of things younger children do. Coming into the room to show you her phone sounds like an adolescent.

Covert behavior is frustrating to deal with because one doesn't know what someone wants. One can be covertly manipulative because they are emotionally needy. I may be just guessing here, but her clinging to you, showing you her phone, seems like something a younger child would do when they want attention.

In addition, she has a BPD mother, and not to excuse her poor boundaries, it may also be that she didn't grow up with boundaries. Also, not having a stable emotional bond with a mother may mean she's seeking something like that from you, but this feels uncomfortable to you. I agree, there's a lot of baggage between the two of you and also we expect more from a 25 year old.

My BPD mother is emotionally needy and wants to be taken care of. However, she won't be forthright about what she needs but instead, manipulates me to do things for her to meet this need. It feels icky to be manipulated and so I feel resentment when this happens, which makes it hard for me to genuinely meet her emotional need. It's that classic push someone away and then want attention.

D 25 is also attention seeking from her father. The triangle drama is also attention seeking. It looks to me as if she wants attention from both of you. With BPD mother- our visits go better when she's the center of attention. We can do this for a short while.

However, this is not what you want to do and I don't blame you. This is supposed to be a fun time for you and your friends and also you wish your H to join you. My guess is he's torn. He may feel some guilt about how his D25 had to deal with a BPD mother, or he may understand she's emotionally younger than her years.

What is your boundary? Think of actions:

Don't rescue your H from her needs.

He may not be able to balance the dual emotional pulls when with the two of you at one time. Maybe schedule some time for the two of you and some time where you are out with your friends and leave the two of them to be together. Share the schedule with him ahead of time.

Also share the schedule with D25. "on this night, your father and I will go to dinner with our friends" and then "on this afternoon, you and your father will go out for coffee together" ( while you do something with your friends)

I don't think a "heart to heart" talk with her will be effective and I think it would be very uncomfortable. I think when your H mentions this, perhaps he means giving her attention. Attention you don't want to do. I think the schedule might help designate time for you away from her, time with you and your H, and time for the two of them, so she knows she will have that at one point.

[livednlearned]

Not to excuse her behavior of walking in on you when you want privacy- but it makes me wonder what her emotional age is.

She swings between toddler to middle school. When she is acting like an adult, it comes across as, well, acting. Like taking on characteristics of someone twice her age.

She used to run to the door when H came home from work and tackle him with a full body hug like a toddler might do. When he tried to get her off him, she would cling harder. This was something we worked through in therapy -- my T said it was important that H greeted me first, to help SD25 feel that she wasn't in a position of power, and demonstrate to her that H and I were solid in our relationship. It wasn't easy but H was eventually able to do this because he agreed with the T that somewhere in SD25, she needed to know he was the parent, and not a spouse, and that this boundary would help her feel more secure that she didn't have the power to destroy his marriage or happiness.

When she came into my shower the second time, after I asked her to not come into my bedroom much less bathroom, it was more calculated.

It's hard to explain except that her body language and facial expression make it pretty clear. Sometimes I think she is genuinely struggling because she's alone and that's insufferable for her. Other times I think she is setting up scenarios where someone chooses her (bad behavior or otherwise) over their own values because then she feels worthy, at least in that moment when she rolls over a boundary. "Are you paying attention? Ok, good."

Anyway, the takeaway from this free therapy with you all  is that authenticity is something I have with myself and H.

Boundaries is something I have with SD25, and that can breed resentment simply because of the effort involved. Boundaries I set with H because of SD25 also breed resentment because I do work I'd like him to do.

The key is to watch carefully for resentment growing simply because I'm absorbing the conflict in order to keep peace.

When SD25 lived with us, I would visualize a cup -- if it was full, then I could do more with her. If it was empty, then my boundaries were up. I forgot about that until now. It's probably important to take that cup with me and use it during our visit.

If I'm well-rested and feel like my needs are met, and H and I are working as a team, that's a pretty full cup. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Goodness...

Boundaries is something I have with SD25, and that can breed resentment simply because of the effort involved.

I had to uphold boundaries yesterday both with my BPDm and with H, who, when I told him I had answered her, got pissed at me. I told him to trust me in my dealings with her and in finding my way toward my own healing. He disagrees with how I approach thing and would like me to just cut her off, which is something I am just not able to do emotionally right now.

And I felt resentful.

I felt resentful that this was something I even needed to explain.

I felt resentful that I had to uphold boundaries with two people in the same day, one of whom is usually my best friend and partner in life.

And I felt exhausted and drained and I wondered why that was. And you just explained it to me through this simple sentence and through your empty/filled cup analogy. Thank you.

It is exhausting, having to constantly uphold boundaries, it is very true. Most people are able to do it naturally (or at least it looks like it), but for those of us with codependent tendancies, it is too often a struggle, and draining.

I find it taxing to have to explain myself about things that should go without question. It feels like fighing to just exist and be.

And so, I understand better now where you are coming from with you stepdaughter. Holding boundaries with someone with BPD is one thing (already hard), but when doing this, a sane and healthy thing, bring instability in our relationship, it is like a double drain sucking the energy out of our body and mind. When we have to also hold boundaries with the one person who is supposed to be on our side, or at least trust us and support us in being true to ourselves, welcoming us for what and who we are, this is the most draining of all.

Thankfully, this seems like a rather rare occurence between you and your husband, and it feels like you both generally work as a team. But I can see how taxing this can be for you to "lose" this feeling of partnership, even if just for a few days.

[Notwendy]

Yes, your own feelings of resentment can be a useful tool

It is emotionally exhausting. My BPD mother had expressed a wish to move closer to me. Not for me. She doesn't care if she sees me or not. It's because she thinks she would see my children more.

To her, I am mainly someone who could be useful to her and when I don't comply with what she wants me to do, she has no use for me.

If she wants something, boundaries are not a deterrent to her. She pushes at them or finds a way to get around them. So it takes a lot of emotional energy to hold a boundary with her.

I realized that having any kind of relationship to her is not possible without the boundary of distance. Distance allows me a sense of emotional safety and I need that.

I don't feel emotionally safe around her, yet don't feel it is right for me to initiate NC. Now, she can go weeks without speaking to me and seems just fine about it. I don't know if she even cares if we have a relationship or not, but if she wants NC, that is her choice.

But for visits, I have to limit the time with her. It's hard for me to be around her. So it's a matter of choosing my battles. I give in to most requests as long as they are not something that would violate my strongest values but how much time we are together is the boundary.

[livednlearned]

I give in to most requests as long as they are not something that would violate my strongest values but how much time we are together is the boundary.

I admire how clear you are on this. I suppose partly I am in control mode and looking for a clear path when there really isn't one. Or if there is, it is something I have to navigate in real time.

I feel like a cat trying to avoid a bath when it comes to this visit  

[Notwendy]

I think the feeling of control is relative- maybe better than before I worked on co-dependency, but I don't always feel in control when I visit BPD mother. It's an anxious experience. I know, logically, she can't hurt me. It's just that she has an agenda and there's no way of knowing what it is- and she "plays" us to accomplish it.

My "controls" are external ones. I visit her, not the other way around, because then I know the time constraints of the visit. I have my car with me- and I don't stay with her- so I know I can leave if I need to. She's very controlling and manipulative. It's not even worth trying to resist it- she will win. She's better at this than I am and also more ruthless. Although her behavior is classic BPD- there's a strong narcissistic streak to her. So my sense of control is with the time. I will rationalize that during my time with her, she'll have her way but I decide the time.

I also won't be alone with her. If I visit with other family members, she behaves better.

I understand how you are apprehensive about the visit. I would stay close to your H and also schedule breaks and let him deal with her.

[Notwendy]

Thinking about the most recent visits, they haven't gone well. I have tried to do nice things for her but she ends up being angry at me for something I "didn't do right". She wants to see my children- not me. They are young adults now- if they wanted to visit her, they can do it themselves. They are certainly old enough to travel wherever they want to. I don't try to force them to visit her. We have taken family trips to see her but not as often as she'd want .

When she has expressed her wishes, it's been that she wants to see them. She's asked my "golden child" to visit but not me. I don't know if she even wants me to visit her.

Makes me wonder if your DIL wants to see you, or just her father. While he's afraid you might "hurt her feelings" if you aren't making the effort to be with her, maybe she'd rather just be with him.

Best reason to schedule doing something for you. Go out to eat with a friend, schedule a pedicure, a walk, go to a coffee shop.

[GaGrl]

Makes me wonder if your DIL wants to see you, or just her father. While he's afraid you might "hurt her feelings" if you aren't making the effort to be with her, maybe she'd rather just be with him.

Best reason to schedule doing something for you. Go out to eat with a friend, schedule a pedicure, a walk, go to a coffee shop.

When my H and I married, I told my stepdaughter that it was important for her to have her private time with her father, and how much I had always enjoyed my time with my dad. I could see the understanding and relief wash across her face.

It's not that SD and I don't enjoy our talks and activities together -- she just needs dedicated time with her dad. Sometimes H flies out to visit for  about three days by himself, then I'll go next visit.

[livednlearned]

When my H and I married, I told my stepdaughter that it was important for her to have her private time with her father, and how much I had always enjoyed my time with my dad. I could see the understanding and relief wash across her face.

I have said the same to both girls, SD28 and SD25. We are blended on both sides so it's easy to say this and have it feel genuine. The difference with SD25 is that every second feels like an hour and it takes so much effort to be in her company.

I will be structuring the visit to make sure I have lots of time to do what I want. The key is how to manage when we are together.

No surprise -- SD28 has found a reason to not come. She has similar issues with SD25, altho I am surprised she maneuvered out of it so soon.

It will be easier if SS22 comes down with SD25 but they have an on/off relationship so it could be last minute before I find out if it's just SD25 coming. I mentioned changing the house rental to hotel but H pointed out it is cheaper to stay in the Airbnb and the location is better. We are sticking to the plan.

H shared a recent exchange of texts with SD25. I don't know why I'm sharing this here ... I think because sometimes I wonder if I'm the problem. I can see this is a person in a lot of emotional pain who has poor capacity to communicate what she actually wants and needs. And yet simultaneously I feel repulsion. Maybe I am not as healed from my own dysfunctional family as I thought. Sometimes I wish I could be a bigger person and not feel so impatient.

The following texts have nothing to do with me and yet I am beyond annoyed and my feelings are so intense I will walk out of the room if I hear SD25 discussing her body aches and pains with H. I don't understand why I am so bothered by something unrelated to me?

SD: This pain is becoming so stressful it's causing me to feel depressed and hopeless. Do you think the walking I did was ok? My chi breathing helped me to do the walking, and not feel in so much pain, and afterward felt more relaxed. Definitely have some pain now but it's not any worse than this time last night. Just feels different but same level of pain. When I was walking, I was careful to go slow. I focused on my breathing and I took a couple breaks.

H: Yes and keep up the good work

SD: I might do the body scan again.

H: emoji

SD: I notice at night around this time my stress increases and my pain is also higher. But gonna take a hot bath and stretch and do the body scan. Also, I think the walking loosened up my joints.

H: Pre bed anxiety. Very common. I get it sometimes too.

SD25: Yes, I think I've done too much stressing about my pain and anticipating what it will be like from day to day. Like worrying if I'm making good choices or overdoing it. Or if I will be in pain a moment from now. At night I notice it more and will be stressing.

H: Suffering equals pain times resistance.

SD25: I notice the more I stress, the more I feel it, the less I stress, the more I'm able to do comfortably. And I try to be aware of my reactions to it. But I guess all that is much easier during the day.

H: Yes

SD25: It takes practice.

H: Lifelong practice.

SD25: Yes, but when I do it, it empowers me.

H: Life is lifelong practice.

SD25: Hey dad, does eating too much chicken cause high cholesterol?

H: With skin and fries yes. Otherwise no.

SD25: I'm feeling severe anxiety and I'm not sure what else is going on and I feel very lightheaded and have GI issues.

H: It will pass. Try 3 minutes of mindful breathing.

SD25: I realize I am trying to push through because I don't want to take more time off, because people seem bothered that I have used a lot of PTO. But right now I literally have body aches and eye pain from exhaustion. I could make some extra money by going in tomorrow, but I am leaning towards taking a personal day so I can rest and recover. I have plans after work and I don't want to not be able to enjoy it because I'm feeling horrible.

H: Your decision and it is often a balance between money and free time.

SD25: I mean, it's less about free time and more about being so exhausted I'm in physical pain. Also, they didn't pay me yet for the last pay period. Because I still don't have direct deposit. Because no one would help me sign up. And there is probably a paycheck delayed in the mail. I could use sick time. But I was choosing to be honest that I am not sick and need sleep. And use personal time.

H: Spring break starts tomorrow or Saturday. You choose.

SD25: I'm not just looking for extra time to have fun. I'm in physical pain.

H: Make a decision and accept your choice.

S25: And now I'm kind of pissed they are blowing off me not getting paid.

H: Planning to have a different job next year? Talk this weekend.

SD25: Idk. Nvmd.

H: Suffering equals pain times resistance.

SD25: This has nothing to do with emotions and more to do with being physically exhausted and having body aches and eye pain. I am not gonna be out having fun. I would be sleeping.

H: Peace. Maybe a different career?

SD25: I haven't been sleeping well for reasons that don't have to do with work. I'll talk to you another day. That is also why my mood is so off. That's why I need the day but am afraid to take it. It's nothing to do with work though.

It is rare for H to choose to simply end the conversation, which he did this time. These texts are chronic and daily. SD25 will punish him until the tension builds and she starts up again, probably in 2-3 days when the pain becomes unbearable.