The Steep Learning Curve

[zachira]

I keep working on my boundaries and am having occasionally some bad experiences with people who I never should have continued to be around. Red Flag number one for me is that if there isn't reciprocal communication than I will usually eventually get mistreated if the contact continues. Lately I am walking away from people who I enjoy learning about when they do not ask a single question about me after a long conversation. Tonight I was insulted out of the blue by a married man I have known for a long time who I see in the park and often chat with. He never has asked a single question about me.Tonight when he saw me, he immediately insulted me, saying that he had seen this man on the bicycle (whom I talk to occasionally) and that meant he was going to run into me. He said he had seen me two days in a row and implied that I was stalking him. He told me you live here (in the park).  He told me to get away and leave him alone. I had not seen this man much in the last few months. I did run into him at the Farmers Market last week and yesterday, and briefly spoke to him observing he really did not want to talk to me. Tonight I just said hello and than he went on his rant and walked away. The odd part about his referral to the man on the bicycle is I saw the man on the bicycle leaving the park 30 minutes earlier about 2 miles from where I ran into this man. I am guilty of ignoring this man's boundaries, being way too friendly and intrusive. Usually when I do this, most people get more distant with me, and I respect their distance; I had been doing this with this man lately so none of this makes sense, and it probably won't. He did tell me when I saw him at the Farmers Market that he has not been to work for over two weeks because the union is on strike. I think I am upset because this reminds me of how my disordered family members treat me: suddenly angry and making false accusations out of the blue. Thank you for reading this and listening. The triggers are always there, and I usually manage them pretty well. Getting yelled at and insulted for no reason, does bother me, and I think this is probably normal. Got lots of meditation to do to calm down.

[Notwendy]

I understand. I once had an encounter with a complete stranger in a restaurant. A woman was sitting at the next table. She overheard me ask a server for something and completely misunderstood what I said and went off on me accusing me of something I didn't do. Now logically - this is crazy. I wasn't doing anything.

Logically, anyone would conclude that this woman was crazy and out of line. Me? I panicked- began to ruminate about what I might have done wrong that this woman did this- as if it was my fault- but there's no way it was. I was shaken up for hours after this.

I think someone else may have just shrugged this off and decided this woman was just crazy and logically that's the situation. I did nothing wrong and I know it. It's her twisted thinking that caused her to react that way and it was out of line. But when we've experienced this with our own family, we question ourselves.

In Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, one example is when someone defines us. This is a boundary violation. Defining someone else is out of line. Your "friend" ( doesn't sound like a friend) has no right to accuse you of this. Lots of people like the park. I have run into people in the park and talk to them. It's coincidence, not stalking, if two people who go to the park a lot are in the same place at the same time. I also would probably strike up a friendly chat with someone if I kept running into them, with boundaries of course.

I also know a man who talks about himself mostly when we speak.  I suspect some narcissism on his part. Since we are just acquaintances, he's not acted in any hurtful way with me, and he's been cordial but I agree- someone who isn't showing any interest in another person would be a red flag to me. Even if someone is married and has boundaries, they can still ask "how's it going" or "how do you like your new job" - just something to acknowledge that the other person exists. This "friend" of yours has shown another side of him and it would make sense to keep a cordial distance.

[Riv3rW0lf]

In Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, one example is when someone defines us. This is a boundary violation. Defining someone else is out of line.

Now I need to read that book. This is what I noticed one my neighbors doing all the time with me... Telling me when I put my children to bed, telling me how I feel about things, even though that is not how I feel about those things at all ...this is the one I found much easier seeing the red flags, and keeping away from.

Yesterday though, the other neighbor came over. This one only talks about herself, and will say things I said to the other neighbor. Yet I still "opened up". Not about anything very very hard that cannot be guessed by my situation, but I did say I found it hard with H gone and home care closed. I did mention I had a big contract and client needing my care and that it was stressful, now I wonder how this will pop back on me, and if I will get attacked at some point. I do feel she isn't interested, because she will change the subject and doesn't seem to be listening or caring at all. I am sure how to handle this, to be honest. I tend to "assert" myself to get some talking in, but maybe I should just be polite and cut it short? I don't know.

It's tricky because those that only talk about themselves, not showing interest, could also be doing it for protection? I remember reading on egocentricity... What's the line between narcissism and egocentricity? One is more risky than the other... I find it harder to manage.

Zacchira, I am sorry you got yelled at for no reason, this is just unacceptable. It sounds like he discharged his stressful and negative emotions on you, and you didn't deserve that. It's normal to be triggered. And I'm not sure I agree that "regular" people don't get triggered by this. I think most people would feel bad and icky after this kind of interaction. This is a normal reaction to being attacked, to a threat. Finding safety back is often what we have more problems  doing, because our coping mechanism often include taking responsibility for things we have no power over... I hope you were able to do some self care and ground yourself back.

I often feel bad about myself when I lose footing, like "I shouldn't have lost my footing for this!" Which is truly just another way to abuse myself... I hope you are gentler with yourself, and full of self-compassion right now.

 

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Thank you for giving me the term to explain how I was treated. Yes, it indeed was verbal abuse. While I appreciate your sharing your example of verbal abuse by a complete stranger and how badly you felt, I do not see myself as an innocent victim, not that I deserved to be treated the way I was. I have been quite lonely lately and the park has been my solace. I often ignore people's boundaries and am too talkative with people who would rather be left alone at some point. I do well with people with healthy boundaries as they are comfortable letting me know what their boundaries are and in kind ways. It is seeing myself behave like my disordered family members that bothers me. I have made great strides in making friends with a few healthy people and have much work to do in setting boundaries with people I should never be around. With the disordered people, I have full responsiblity for setting the healthy boundaries, and I am a work in progress in doing so. Today my nervous system is a wreck after a sleepless night. I ask myself: When is the nightmare of attracting unhealthy people who abuse me going to end? I know the answer. I will always be triggered at times because of all the abuse I have suffered and continue to suffer at the hands of my disordered family members and their flying monkeys. I have some work to do on ending conversations quickly and limiting contact with people who have no interest in me. I looked up Patricia Evans and found several interesting books, one of which I ordered. One of the interesting things you have said and Patricia Evens says is that when people define you that is abuse. Yes, I am being defined by this man in the park as a woman who stalks him and makes him feel uncomfortable. He does not see any other side to me, despite the times I have listened to him share all kinds of things which he enjoyed sharing or times I was there for him when he was upset about something. For most of my extended family, I am a loser. The odd part of all this, is the night before I was abused by this man, I was contacted by the family member who treats me with respect and kindness most of the time. He let me know he was doing some long distance driving and to call him if I wished to do so. I really enjoyed chatting with him. The conversation went back and forth, as he acknowledged interest and showed empathy for me. He also let me know he wasn't anxious to hang up even though he had a call from his daughter. I did end the conversation at that point, as we had been talking quite awhile and I need to end conversations before the person wants to, though he would have kindly let me know he wanted to end the conversation. He is married to a wonderful woman and I often compliment him on how he has raised really nice children. I had one of my closest friends who comes from a family I have known from childhood, tell me recently that in life we usually can count our true friends on one hand. Besides her, I have two other friends in that family. I went to their house for Thanksgiving one year and was so delighted by how the family members acknowledge and love all the children. This family has known my family for many generations. My NPD sister does not have a friendship with any of them, yet she seems to have convinced a large part of the community that I am an unworthy person. I believe my sister just isn't interested in people who are genuine fine people. She likes to surround herself with superficial people in which there is no conflict, just mutual admiration of how brilliant and superior they are to others. I want to be part of a smaller club in which the relationships are close, kind, and genuine. I will be meditating today until I am back to baseline. Thank you Notwendy for helping me to understand what happened and put it into words.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Your stories about your neighbors always resonate with me in that oftentimes people who we barely know and are people we have to be around some of the time, do have a big impact on our lives. These women are close neighbors who regularly interact with you and your family. It sounds like you are trying to set healthy boundaries with them yet are still learning about what kind of boundaries to have with them. This really does relate to my trying to figure out how to set boundaries with people I run into at the park that I walk in evey day, particularly people I see on a regular basis. With some people, it is easy as they let me know what their boundaries are: whether it is wanting no contact at all, just to only say a quick hello, or usually to chat for a few minutes or longer when we see each other. The people who I see as challenging are the ones who have extremely poor boundaries and the ball is completely in my park to set the boundaries which is what I have had to deal with my whole life with my disordered family members. The problem is that disordered people cannot be counted on to show you who they really are, because their sense of self changes depending on how they are feeling in the moment and how they are feeling gets dumped onto others so they don't have to deal with their uncomfortable emotions and feelings. It seems the solution with these type of people is to keep things as superficial as possible while setting some pretty strict boundaries when necessary. I am working on having more self compassion, as I know that the more self compassion I have the more I will feel worthy of making friends with healthy people and the quicker I will exit from situations with disordered people. Thank you taking time to reply and show that you care.

[Notwendy]

It is a learning curve and we are all learning. Also please don't be too hard on yourself. All you did was talk to the man. He also has the responsibility for his boundaries- if he wanted to be alone, that's on him to say it and it would have been nicer if he did it politely. It's a giant leap ( into distorted thinking) to assume anything more than just a chat. Maybe you spoke a bit much, but what he said was inappropriate.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Yes, this is a learning curve and we are all learning. I have done really well with my triggers the past few months and have not had a major breakdown over anything until now. Last fall a woman told me nobody likes you around here. She is a new owner in the area, and I knew exactly who told her that, as she really doesn't know me at all. Her source was a covert narcissist whom she bought her house from after the owner sold when she abused too many people and earned the dislike of nearly everyone. I wasn't bothered at all by the comment, as I know the past owner was furious that I unmasked so many of her abuses. Narcissists hate being found out. I wish I could handle being abused like this every time. The new owner has shown her true colors right out of the starting gate, so I know to stay away from her.
This particular incident has left me in a nervous crisis. My stomach is upset and I feel afraid. His behaviors are so sick and irrational. There really is no rational explanation for his abusing me nor any justifications for his behaviors. The park has always been my safe place. Now I am afraid of running into this man. I am going to do my meditation and go to the park today.Hopefully this man will leave me alone and he will go back to work soon. I know I have to face my fears to be able to move on. I do not want to get into a situation that I can't easily get out of with abusive people like with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The park has always been my safe place. Now I am afraid of running into this man. I am going to do my meditation and go to the park today.Hopefully this man will leave me alone and he will go back to work soon. I know I have to face my fears to be able to move on. I do not want to get into a situation that I can't easily get out of with abusive people like with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys.

I understand this so very much, and I hope you found your ground back, because you have a right to enjoy a stroll in the park without being abused by strangers and acquaintances. He was out of place. You have a right to be there and to enjoy this safe space. I am so sorry he took that from you and I really do hope you find your feeling of safety back. You did nothing wrong. And we are all here for you.

[Notwendy]

I think I was in a similar situation several years ago. It seemed that some disordered people felt it was OK to say and do mean things to me.

People who are emotionally healthy, and who respect boundaries, don't do and say things like that. Disordered people disrespect boundaries and people with healthy boundaries can sense that. I think this is on an emotional level. Looking at why people match up with partners who are disordered - their own boundaries have something to do with that. There could be an initial attraction, but someone with emotionally healthy boundaries would feel uncomfortable around them and the relationship would not progress.

I think I can speak for many of us here- our boundary "radar" may be a bit skewed. We probably can recognize the large red flags, but I know that for me, in my family growing up- weak boundaries was the "normal" so I didn't recognize the less obvious until someone actually acted mean to me. But probably there were other more subtle boundary issues that I didn't recognize at first, and so the other person got to the point where they felt they could act like that.

Does that make sense? There were two people in my circle. One I suspect now probably had BPD. She just caused so much drama. For some reason though, I kept trying to be friends with her, and she kept doing and saying mean things to me, but I still tried to be her friend. I was also a people pleaser and tried to be so nice to other people.

The other person- what I know about her now is that she was married to an alcoholic and these dynamics are similar. She kept yelling at me. I finally asked her- why are you yelling at me and she answered "Because I can!".

I learned in 12 step co dependency groups that we teach people how to treat us. I now know that tolerating mean behavior is something I learned to do growing up- we were expected to tolerate my BPD mother's behavior. If we tolerate this, people will learn they can treat us this way. Probably before this "friend" ever yelled at me, she had figured out she could.

The solution? Work on our own boundaries and it's a work in progress- we are all learning. When I mentioned the woman in the restaurant - it wasn't just that it was not my fault- it was my reaction to it- that freeze up and think it was my fault. But even if I had done something out of line- it was still inappropriate for her to say what she did but I still worried that it might be about me, because of the way things were in my family.

Zachira- what I think might have happened is not because you did anything wrong. I talk to people in the park sometimes too. It's possible there were more subtle signals about this man that you didn't pick up on- but even so, saying what he said is out of line- that isn't your fault.

[livednlearned]

I do not see myself as an innocent victim, not that I deserved to be treated the way I was. I have been quite lonely lately and the park has been my solace. I often ignore people's boundaries and am too talkative with people who would rather be left alone at some point.

What are the cues telling you they would rather be left alone?

I do well with people with healthy boundaries as they are comfortable letting me know what their boundaries are and in kind ways.

I feel the same way. I notice how much calmer I feel when people say to me, "I have a hard stop at x o'clock."

It is seeing myself behave like my disordered family members that bothers me. I have made great strides in making friends with a few healthy people and have much work to do in setting boundaries with people I should never be around.

 
Do you notice new things you're doing that have been working well for you?

With the disordered people, I have full responsiblity for setting the healthy boundaries, and I am a work in progress in doing so.

Me too. In one of your posts in my recent thread you made me realize that I still take on a lot of responsibility for other people. I've been looking at some of things socialized into me. When other people don't do them I shrug it off but for me I see it almost like a rule. A friend told me the other day that people become uncomfortable (on average) after 4 seconds. I think my comfort may be half a second 

Making change is so hard. Therapists I've had in the past, the ones that were effective in terms of talk therapy, often had me break big things into small pieces. Maybe there are small habits you can examine to see how they set you up for behaviors you want to change.

When is the nightmare of attracting unhealthy people who abuse me going to end?

Do you think feeling lonely complicates this even more? It's a very painful feeling.

I have some work to do on ending conversations quickly and limiting contact with people who have no interest in me.

I share this challenge with you. Ending conversations with people is hard for me. I also find it hard when people have expectations for friendship even when I see red flags.

I want to be part of a smaller club in which the relationships are close, kind, and genuine.

 

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for understanding how important it is for me to feel safe in the park. I think this man is more afraid of me than I am of him. He seems to be coming late to the park and avoiding me if I am there. I think what set him off was I ran into him at the Farmers Market, a place we have never seen each other before, so some how he got this idea that I am stalking him. He is paranoid and afraid of close relationships. He also has been on strike from his job for the past two weeks which he told me about at the Farmers Market and immediately turned away, which suggests to me he has some overwhelming feelings right now, possibly shame. Still this does not excuse how he took out his feelings on me. I think I will be okay as long as he does not continue to bother me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am glad to read you went back to the park despite the initial feeling of fear attached to it. And it is a good thing that he is staying away from you. Maybe he is feeling shame... And honestly, he should.

I wonder... hypothetically, if he was to apologize, do you think you would want to chitchat with him again? Is there any reparation possible from this kind of fall out from a stranger? I tend to have very flexible limits, too flexible, and am trying to correct that. My husband has much harder boundaries than I do. He sticks to them in ways I am unable to do... I zigzag, come back on what I know and feel, question it all the time... Does that resonate with you? I thought this was a strength, but relationship wise, I am not so sure anymore.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
I too have chosen not to recognize the signs that I am in the presence of a disordered person until that person has been mean to me. I too identify with a person treating  me badly because the person feels he/she can.

Riv3rWOlf,
Dr Ramani talks about how giving second chances to someone who has treated you badly as what leads to the abuses to go on and on. With domestic violence, there is a cycle of abuse than an apology repeating over and over again often for years. I would not accept an apology from this man because it would not be sincere. I often wish that people who have abused me would sincerely apologize for being cruel to me and I know it won't happen. People who can sincerely apologize usually have done something that is a common mistake we humans often make, whereas egregious behaviors demonstrate that the abuser is not capable of genuine remorse, except in exceptional cases in which there is a real wake up call.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,

What are the cues telling you they would rather be left alone?
I have a hard time understanding what a serious face means as my disordered family members, particularly my mother, never looked/look genuinely happy. (There is no feeling of genuinely being enjoyed for who I am by most of my relatives and the people I often have chosen to be in my inner circle.) I notice that the feet pointed away from me means the person wants to end the conversation. It helps when a person tells me that he/she has to go. Other signs are more subtle and can mean many things. For example, when another person never asks about me, it can just mean that the person is self centered, and enjoys talking to me as long as he/she is getting the kind of attention he/she craves. What are the cues for you that tell you a person would rather be left alone?
 
Do you notice new things you're doing that have been working well for you?
A couple of days before the incidence with this man, a friend told me how much happier I am since I went very low contact with my family. This friend has a sister with BPD whom she went no contact with many years ago after the sister with BPD tried to ruin her wedding and after many attempts to get along with her. Yesterday my much younger neighbor who is a wonderful mother to her two very young children told me how much she enjoys talking with me. I do well with people who I enjoy and who enjoy me, and people who are genuinely happy with their lives. My challenges are to be more appreciative of what I have, to enjoy the small things, and to be generous with the right people and in the right moments. I often am way too generous with my time with people who do not appreciate my efforts, and I am getting better at noticing the red flags and limiting the contact sooner.  

Maybe there are small habits you can examine to see how they set you up for behaviors you want to change.
I am trying to be more mindful for more time each day, to notice how I feel inside, which makes me more aware of how others are feeling.

Do you think feeling lonely complicates this even more? It's a very painful feeling.
The effects of the pandemic have complicated having to go very low contact with my close relatives and large extended family along with the flying monkeys, and ending so called friendships with the wrong people which has left me spending way too much time alone, and often feeling better just being alone most of the time. I do enjoy my own company while realizing I can overdo the alone time to the point that I am needy for people contact and push people away with how needy I am. I need to be more assertive in making and keeping the right kind of friends.  

I share this challenge with you. Ending conversations with people is hard for me. I also find it hard when people have expectations for friendship even when I see red flags.
I find it hard to end conversations with people and I link that to being rejected by my FOO and the large extended family, and since birth made one of the black sheep of the family. I also do not like to hurt people and turn down their offers for friendship yet I am realizing I am hurting myself by enabling the disordered behaviors of others. I also realize I am hurting other people by enabling their disordered behaviors.

Thank you for the great questions and sharing your wisdom.

 

[livednlearned]

I have a hard time understanding what a serious face means as my disordered family members, particularly my mother, never looked/look genuinely happy. (There is no feeling of genuinely being enjoyed for who I am by most of my relatives and the people I often have chosen to be in my inner circle.)

I can see why that would be hard. You wouldn't be regularly seeing a full spectrum of facial expressions. That would make it hard to trust that those expressions went with specific emotions and intentions.

What are the cues for you that tell you a person would rather be left alone?

This is complicated for me. My son has autism and doesn't feel comfortable with eye contact, but he can be very engaged even though it doesn't look like it to neurotypical people. I seem to be re-learning some cues because of him.
 

I often am way too generous with my time with people who do not appreciate my efforts, and I am getting better at noticing the red flags and limiting the contact sooner.  

I'm so happy for you. Those are all genuine, heart-warming moments. It can feel vulnerable to say things like that to people, you must mean a lot to them for them to tell you.

I find it hard to end conversations with people and I link that to being rejected by my FOO and the large extended family, and since birth made one of the black sheep of the family.

Do you think that the struggle to end conversations is wanting to avoid the feeling that the connection will come to an end?

I have a similar issue with conversations ending that I'm not quite sure what to make of. I read somewhere once that people who talk a lot might do so because they can avoid their feelings. That could describe me at times. My mother lives to be the center of attention and I associate those behaviors with being self-centered and self-absorbed and harmful, since her desire to be center of attention caused me a lot of harm, through neglect. I often want to end the conversation and can't.

But there's another possibility I think about. I wonder if this resonates with you. When I think of the intense demands my uBPD sibling made on my attention, I realize now how weird it was. If I didn't demonstrate that I was paying attention, then I got punished. I think it has made me weirdly hypervigilant about making sure people know I'm listening and paying attention. To end the conversation means I get to choose when to end the attention, and that wasn't safe.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
My challenges in ending conversations, ignoring obvious signs that I am around an unsafe person, etc., are all related to extreme neglect in childhood. My mother with BPD had no capacity for empathy for children and my father was similarly impaired though not to the extremes that my mother was. When I was around 4 years old, my bedroom was in the basement so far away from my parents, that they would not hear me if I was crying. The door between the basement and the upstairs where my parents' bedroom was, was always locked. I would sometimes have a nightmare, bang on the door for a long time before my mother came. She would let me crawl in bed with her, while making it clear she wanted no physical contact with me, and let me know she was relieved when I left. My understanding is that a lot of the worst child abuse starts around 2 years of age with the terrible twos and the disordered parent is no longer enchanted with their adorable baby. I think that perhaps the people on PSI who were able to marry and be there for their children probably were not severely abused until they were toddlers. I was left in the crib as a baby for hours on end with nobody responding to my cries, and developed severe disassociation from that, which was successfully treated with EMDR therapy. I have learned many important life skills over the years: to enjoy children, to mostly stop talking over people, to have reciprocal conversations, etc., I am well aware that there is such a thing as brain plasticity as I have personally experienced so many positive changes in how my brain works, and later in life. I had never looked at babies or had any interest in them, until I was in my forties and it was pointed out to me that I did not look at or notice babies. Once I started to interact with babies, I thorougly enjoyed them. About 2 years after having never ever been emotionally present with a baby, I was in a line and a toddler was running around. Another person in line remarked that she knew I was a mother and loved children. Later the job I fell in love with was working with children and adolescents. The learning curve is steep and I continue to make progress. The hard part is when I stumble, like with this man who ruthlessly attacked me in the park with no justification for doing so. I am so grateful to no longer resemble so many of my disordered family members and their flying monkeys who have no capacity for genuine empathy and are extremely narcissistic.

[Methuen]

I am sorry Zachira that this man in the park has triggered you.  But I also celebrate your awareness and recognition of your progress and growth in so many ways.

I am late to this thread, but interested in the conversation about how many of us end up  feeling bad about ourselves after someone else's bad behavior is directed at us.

Relationships are complicated because people can be so complicated.  IMHO, people who behave badly by saying and doing mean things to hurt other people (including creating divisiveness), do so because they are emotionally disturbed and not aware of their own issues, and not working on their own personal growth.  They are hurting, so they make themselves feel better by hurting other people. They bully, berate, abuse. But at the end of the day, who can feel good about themselves after that?  Which leads to a downward shame spiral. Just my theory.

We once had a couple stay with us for an extended period of time.  One person is someone we both care for and love dearly. We did this to help them out financially. We have always been the type to say "what can we do?" or "how can we help?" when we go visiting with friends or family, so we assumed this couple would do the same.  We are very hands on when it comes to helping others when we are in their home.  It didn't happen here, because there was little help from them. I was doing extra shopping, cooking and cleaning for 2 extra adults, and I think it was reasonable of us to assume they would lend a hand with the work when we first extended the offer for them to stay with us.  But their  help was minimal, and I started to burn out. One day, I went to one and kindly asked if s/he could help me. I was afraid of a reaction, so I took special care to be kind when asking for help. S/he took great offense to my ask.  What I think s/he heard was me accusing them of not doing much.  In fact, I was only asking for help with something. It didn't end well - I was in tears, after being accused of a number of things.  I didn't sleep for two weeks.  Why did I take that on after being so generous to offer them to stay with us, and then doing all the work too?

In your example Zachira, you felt bad after some dude in the park that you routinely see treated you badly.  That is so hard.  But when it's family doing this to you (as yours always has), it's even harder, because family are the people we should feel safe with and trust.  Because we've been abused by family on some level, it makes us vulnerable to taking abuse from non-family as well. This is a very very difficult thing for us all to navigate.  It puts a whole other layer to the meaning of "emotional intelligence".  Like others, I also struggle with how to manage dysfunctional people who seem to have the ability to make me feel bad.  I have made progress, and can manage dysfunctional people who are not close to me better, but I really struggle with dysfunctional people who I care about deeply. Sometimes there are things we can change in ourselves that are within our control.  But sometimes there are things in the other person that are outside our control.  

I don't know if there are strategies other than accepting, and grieving.  If there are, I would dearly love to hear about what has worked for others to manage all this.

[zachira]

Methuen,
As always I appreciate your kind thoughful posts. Yes, it is more painful when we are mistreated by family, especially family we can't totally avoid, especially close family members we have to interact with frequently like you do with your mother.
I too am looking for strategies to deal with people who mistreat others and who do not reciprocate generosity, making the relationship a mostly one way street. I think what is working the best for me right now is to get to know myself better and to see who is who sooner, while treating people differently depending on how I feel about them and how they treat me. For a long time, I had this idea that I should treat everybody like I would want to be treated. This strategy is a total disappointment and set up for being abused when dealing with a disordered person. I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like for my own protection when with a disordered person in that I use chosen strategies like distancing myself, lying, and manipulation if I need to, and only if I need to. (It makes me think of a person whose family was starving at the end of a war and the mother took her children with her to steal food from the local farmers' fields. The mother frequently told her children that stealing was usually wrong and that they had to steal food so they would have something to eat.) I have chosen to use these strategies with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys as they are frequently reaching out to me and others who know me to harm me emotionally, financially, and legally. I can be challenged in keeping my faith in myself and recognizing the goodness of humanity in general, AND being able to be open, trusting, and generous with wonderful people while practicing healthy boundaries, as nourishing fulfilling relationships thrive on healthy boundaries and disintegrate when the healthy boundaries are not in place. We also do better in unhealthy relationships when we practice putting healthier boundaries in place though it can be pretty discouraging most of the time, as disordered people will usually keep abusing our boundaries to see what they can get away with because this is who they are. It helps me sometimes to remind myself that I have become a decent person in my own right and that the people who mistreat me will likely never have what I have because they aren't capable of looking at themselves, changing and growing into being their best self.

[Riv3rW0lf]

For a long time, I had this idea that I should treat everybody like I would want to be treated. This strategy is a total disappointment and set up for being abused when dealing with a disordered person. I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like for my own protection when with a disordered person in that I use chosen strategies like distancing myself, lying, and manipulation if I need to, and only if I need to.

Yes, a thousand yes to this.

My BPD mother would always tell us : you need to treat others like you want to be treated. Walk in their shoes, understand them and help them, be the little helper. I now realize exactly why she wanted me this way. Even when another child was being mean to me, she would tell me to be empathetic, to see their struggle, to endure. Of course she did, because she needed me to endure her rages as well. She asked me to forgive constantly, but she never forgave. We had to be softer than saints, endure, tolerate, welcome, forgive, be understanding.

It made me terribly weak (strong but not assertive), because this is all I knew how to be. No one taught me to defend myself, and stand for myself when I was being mistreated in school. Else, I'd have defended myself in my home too.

And so, I very agree here Zacchira. It's ok to be someone we would not like when things warrant it, when people are being abusive with us, or unsafe. It's ok to show teeth. And then... Our kindness becomes that much more real, because it becomes a real choice, not our default character. If I can show teeth, it means my kindness is genuine.

[Notwendy]

One aspect of the 12 step groups was to look at some of these ideas from the viewpoint that we can also include ourselves in them. Treat others as you would like to be treated - also how about "Treat yourself how you would like to be treated". If someone was being rude to your friend- how would you take up for your friend?


Also the idea of appealing to the best of someone. If we enable or allow someone to abuse us, then we are enabling them to be an abuser. By having boundaries, we don't enable them to be an abuser.

I also was raised to be a people pleaser and doormat with regards to my parents. This kind of learned behavior had a function in our families as children- it was survival- we were completely dependent on them. It's dysfunctional but it has a function in our own families. It's not OK but it's what we knew to do. When we take this idea into adulthood and other relationships it creates dysfunction in these relationships.

It's the learning how to have these boundaries and stand up for ourselves that can be difficult. We don't want to cross the line into being abusive or hurtful to others and we may make mistakes along the way. There were a few times I also yelled at people- rare times, but it wasn't effective. Yelling at my mother is not effective at all. Sometimes disengaging or speaking up sooner is the better thing to do. My default is to still be passive and give in, but I am getting better at not doing this so much.

[livednlearned]

For a long time, I had this idea that I should treat everybody like I would want to be treated. This strategy is a total disappointment and set up for being abused when dealing with a disordered person.

Another thousand times yes.

My husband and I lived in a new development of 70 homes and people were friendly because it was a new neighborhood.  At a neighborhood event we met this woman who had a service dog. She was gregarious and charismatic, and in addition to some medical issues implied she had cognitive challenges although I didn't ask. I was friendly to her, and she began asking me to help with little things. Inconsequential things at first (help move this sprinkler). Then it was drive her to Costco to push her cart. Then it was help with the kitty litter (upstairs, 3 cats). Then it was come over to reach for this bag on the top shelf. Then to help with fire ants. 

She saw a utility cord crossing the street and called the utility company. It started with her standing on her porch screaming at the top of her lungs about how the cord was going to electrocute a child. There was always always a medical crisis of some sort. She invited us to a birkat habayit (Jewish blessing for the home) and to install their mezuzah and I noticed everyone attending was new.

She would come to my door (I work from home) and ring the bell repeatedly, peering in to see if I was there. I started to hide. It was so hard to end conversations with her, even when I stopped inviting her inside.

One night she saw me outside my home and asked for help with the kitty litter. Her husband was traveling. She couldn't get up the stairs. Later I saw her husband's car pull into the driveway.

If I were medicalized and needed assistance, I would cherish having a friend willing to help out. I am often suckered in by people experiencing medical problems.

My husband pointed out that this woman was always giving us stuff we never asked for. Like a pair of new prescription readers. Or a flashlight. Or reflective dog collar. Most of it was junk or not useful. 

I realize she was setting me up for a transactional relationship. She realized I would be useful to her.

I heard someone say, "She asked if her dog could come over and spend time in my fenced in yard and I said no." These neighbors seemed to understand immediately that this woman was off.

Zachira, I understand what you mean when you say "I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like" because I feel that way now too. People used to say I was guileless and I realize that however I was sending those signals, disordered people see a mark.

[Methuen]

My husband pointed out that this woman was always giving us stuff we never asked for. Like a pair of new prescription readers. Or a flashlight. Or reflective dog collar. Most of it was junk or not useful. 

I realize she was setting me up for a transactional relationship. She realized I would be useful to her.

I heard someone say, "She asked if her dog could come over and spend time in my fenced in yard and I said no." These neighbors seemed to understand immediately that this woman was off.

Zachira, I understand what you mean when you say "I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like" because I feel that way now too. People used to say I was guileless and I realize that however I was sending those signals, disordered people see a mark.

LNL, you just described my mother in your story.  Transactional relationship - thank you for putting the vocabulary to my experience. 

I guarantee that person is my mother - in spirit.  I believe this is how she sequesters all her friends to be caretakers for her - along with her waifyness and their trait of people pleasing.

I think your post might make it easier for me to say "no thanks" next time she does this (whereas "NO" comes quite natural to my H when it comes to mother...).

[livednlearned]

I guarantee that person is my mother - in spirit.  I believe this is how she sequesters all her friends to be caretakers for her - along with her waifyness and their trait of people pleasing.

I think your post might make it easier for me to say "no thanks" next time she does this (whereas "NO" comes quite natural to my H when it comes to mother...).

One thing that helped me dealing with her was to take what I think of as a collaborative approach, although I'm not sure it would work from daughter to BPD mother.

Part of my dilemma was that I did not want to have a discussion about why my behavior was changing. I see now that not everyone deserves that conversation, it takes reciprocity. Another part is that I don't like open conflict, for better or for worse. So it felt like the last resort was to find waif-worthy ways to say no. 

For example, the next time she asked me to clean her kitty litter I said, "I bet there's a high school student in the neighborhood who would jump at the chance to make some money." 

I see, too, why you felt the need to come out of retirement. Most of the ways I said no had to do with working. My schedule is flexible but I made it rigid with her. My older (non BPD) step daughter was living with us when this neighbor came to the door, knocked, rang the door bell, knocked, peered in. She opened the door and said, "LnL is working, even we can't disturb her. We used to be able to but we have new rules to follow."

That's my girl 

SD29 has a BPD mom and BPD sister, and she had a traumatic experience dating someone who had many of the same traits (esp. no boundaries, needy). It was a bit of a bonding moment when she turned this woman away at the door.

We talked once about desensitizing guilt and how that might be necessary when it comes to establishing boundaries when that muscle didn't get exercised in childhood. I think where I have seen improvement is that I feel less guilt after I discover someone has disordered behaviors. What I would like going forward is a radar that delivers a stronger signal.

Where's the test for disordered behavior when it's in waif form. It wasn't like I noticed it the first or second or third or fourth or even fifth red flag. I wandered in and hung out. 

[Notwendy]

That sounds like my mother too. Transactional relationships. She somehow finds people to help her. She has some very sweet neighbor who helps her, but they somehow seem to have a close relationship. I have noticed the neighbor pull back a little since she's moved to assisted living but I did contact her to touch base and they still are in contact. For other people, they seem to be her friend and then- gone. I don't know if BPD mother paints them black or they decide to not have the contact.

I tend to be wary of these interactions with people. If someone is acting very nice to me, I feel guarded. My first thought is "what do they want from me" or "what are they up to?"

I read something about boundaries in a book on relationships with a BPD person. I can't recall the title of the book as it was a long time ago. The last section on the book is about dating again after breaking up that relationship. I read it for curiosity just to see what the book said and it mentioned that boundaries could be too weak or the opposite- too strong. So for some things, perhaps they are too weak and yet, we can also be too defensive sometimes as well.
 
It mentioned that, if we are too guarded or defensive, people with healthy boundaries will sense that and stay away but people who ignore boundaries, and tend to violate them won't - because they don't respect boundaries to begin with. The book then concluded that being too defensive can keep people who respect boundaries away and only those who don't respect them will get past them. Another way perhaps that we may be selecting for these people with our boundaries in other relationships, not just in a romantic situation.

I can relate to this as I think there are people who have tried to become friends with me and if they are very nice to me, I feel a bit uneasy. One one hand, this may be my own radar for these transactional relationships but I also may have kept some genuinely nice people at a distance too.

[Notwendy]

Where's the test for disordered behavior when it's in waif form. It wasn't like I noticed it the first or second or third or fourth or even fifth red flag. I wandered in and hung out.  

Waif is a hard one. One thing I learned in co-dependency work was to pay attention to my own feelings in these interactions. Feeling resentful is a signal that we are doing too much. I think our feelings in these relationships are our red flags. It's not the action- we can be doing the same thing for different people but not feel resentful in each situation.

And feeling "icky"- it's hard to explain but we know when BPD mother is being manipulative through being waify. And emotionally tired- not physically tired.

I  don't want to be so wary that I don't help people. I think it's important to help when we can. It may be that we don't know at first- and choose to help. I'd rather err to the helpful side, but a transactional pattern will become apparent in time. With someone like your BPD SD and my mother, we know this is a pattern. I think our own feelings are clue to when we are doing too much. I think it's different with an elderly person and a young person. With my mother, she genuinely needs the assistance- and for her, waify is manipulative sometimes too. So it's both. But your SD is young and physically able, and you expect her to be more responsible.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I can relate to this as I think there are people who have tried to become friends with me and if they are very nice to me, I feel a bit uneasy. One one hand, this may be my own radar for these transactional relationships but I also may have kept some genuinely nice people at a distance too.

That's the thing though... It's hard to know when we are being too rigid VS when there really is something going on behind the nice facade. It may be that something is going on that wouldn't pour over us too, and that the relationship would be, overall, safe for us, but if we unconsciously pick up on the extra niceties, and feel uneasy, then I have to believe that there really is something going on... Else why would I feel uneasy?

I've met some nice people that don't make me feel uneasy... And I think it has to do with the rate at which the relationship evolves. When it is too soon, too fast, it tends to indicate that the person might be needy? If it's too slow, too cold, then maybe they aren't interested, or don't have time for another friend, which happens a lot as adults. It seems, to me, that there is a healthy evolution to a friendship. And maybe, the overly nice, by going too fast, send a signal that something is up with them... It might be that it wouldn't be unsafe, but it remains off.

I don't know if you kept nice people away... Maybe. I think I did, and still do too... But maybe not, maybe it's just time, and a lack thereof too, and that it had nothing to do with being too rigid, or too defensive... I was told, often, than I came out as " uninterested to pursue relationship" and I think a lot of this has to do with me relying mostly on myself. Someone told me they thought I was nice, they enjoyed speaking with me, had fun with me, but I seemed detached from the relationship. I still put energy into it, from my side, and I was interested in knowing them, which is why the discussions were fun to them, it was often both ways... But they said I seemed: detached and distant. Like I was busy? And that would be why things didn't evolve.

I found this to be the case in most of my relationship... Like... I am the one who needs to check in. But not necessarily because of narcissism, or because they are not interested... My best friend just sent me a nice gesture showing me how much she cares for my wellbeing, but she seldom initiate anything, she just waits for me to initiate. So, I found that if I don't actively pursue a friendship, it just never evolves... But I am rarely being "pursued", maybe because I come across as "detached and good on my own"?

Does that even make sense or am I justifying my own rigidity here?

[Notwendy]

I was told, often, than I came out as " uninterested to pursue relationship" and I think a lot of this has to do with me relying mostly on myself.
But they said I seemed: detached and distant. Like I was busy? And that would be why things didn't evolve.

I found this to be the case in most of my relationship... Like... I am the one who needs to check in. I am rarely being "pursued", maybe because I come across as "detached and good on my own"?

Does that even make sense or am I justifying my own rigidity here?

I have gotten that feedback as well. I think a part of this is that we were on our own in many ways from a very early age and one of these is on our own emotionally.

I noticed by middle school that I felt different from other girls. This wasn't about sexual preferences or identity. I didn't question that.  I had crushes on all the male teen idols at the time. I was just too afraid to get close to a real boy in my class, while all my friends seemed to want to go out with them. I also knew I was a girl but I wasn't sure how to act like one as my female role model was BPD mother.


When I was single, a guy once told me that if I am interested in someone, I would need to be more assertive because I have that "do not approach" signal but on the other hand, I was co-dependent and this attracted men who were not as kind to me as I would have wished for.  So maybe that was the too strong barrier that kept the nicer guys away. But this also protected me as I recognized the big red flag behaviors that I saw in my BPD mother and any "love bombing" would be scary to me.

[Methuen]

This last bit about sending off “stand off” signals is interesting.  

Nobody told me I did this. They didn’t have to. I did it overtly and with intent.  I wasn’t interested.

I rejected my first love interest in grade 4.  In grade 6 I got a phone call from a boy to go to a school dance.  I said no. My mom teased me mercilessly about this boy calling me. For months.  It felt so off. It makes me squeemish to think about her behavior over that.

The teasing by mom continued.  I think I avoided boys to avoid mom’s harassment. I had trust issues.

I don’t see people as they present.   I tend to see through them.  My mom always judged someone’s character by how they looked. “She’s so thin and dresses so nice. She must a nice person. “ This drove me nuts even as a child.  I got to know people and took an interest in them based on their actions, not their words or looks.  As a child I learned not to trust words. When I was 13,, my mother promised me a yellow bedroom when I came home from school that day. . I was so genuinely excited and happy.  I ran home to discover it was pink.  Over and over my mother taught me not to trust.  

I think all this influenced my attitudes towards relationships and an interest in boys.  It was just emotionally safer to be independent.

Looking back, I don’t think I had a clue back then why I wasn’t interested.  I think I had enough drama at home and the whole relationship thing just seemed like more drama. My first bf was grade 12.  My mom wasn’t fond of him but my dad thought he was nice. But I didn’t really start dating until I left home and moved away.  That’s probably not a coincidence, as distance from mom is possibly when I started to feel safe enough to explore relationships. I don’t know what else it would have been.

She wanted me to have boyfriends.  I think not having them was my rebellion.  Yep.  That’s it.

[Notwendy]

Methuen, I could have written the same post. Our mothers are so similar. Mine was overly interested in my dating. This was one of the boundaries I had with my children- do not discuss your relationships with Grandma. She'd ask personal questions. I did not want them to get involved in this.

I didn't see it as rebellion. It was more like a fear of having a boyfriend but when I did, it meant a lot to me. I thought one reason was that the feeling that someone actually liked me for me was a big deal to me. But I also think I kept common sense about it. My 12th grade BF and I went to different colleges, mutually downgraded to friendship. I also had the attitude that if someone didn't want to date me, I'd prefer they leave than to be with me and not want to be. I was (and still am) big on the no game playing thing. I don't do it, don't want anyone else to do that.

Freshman college year was difficult for me socially. I was younger, having graduated as soon as I could to get away from the drama in my FOO. This was the hook up scene and I was terrified of it. The only way I could relate to someone romantically is through knowing them well enough to be able to trust them. This would not work. So I didn't date at all. The summer after, my mother was concerned why. I started to wonder why I felt nothing for these guys. I know the reason why is because when we are feeling scared, that's the predominant feeling. She would encourage me to date, and be disappointed when I didn't.

Later when I was dating, my co-dependent behavior was a turn off for some guys who I was interested in. It wasn't something I did on purpose. It was all I knew to do. I learned though if you behave like a doormat, people will treat you like one. Not at the abuse level thankfully.

By contrast, BPD mother is a magnet for rescuer men while my signal is that I don't want that.

The phrase "see through people" - yes, I notice what someone looks like and then dismiss it. I need to know who they are, as a person and that is the basis of my interest. I think I learned this because, we had to judge very quickly if BPD mother was in a dysregulated mood- so we notice things about people- their facial expressions, tone of voice as well as their actions.

It takes while for me to be able to trust people, and if they break that, I may be able to forgive them but I can't regain that level of trust for them.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I have pondered what you said about being able to show our teeth also means our kindness is genuine. It makes me think about how disordered people have a public image that they try to sell to everyone which cannot be maintained indefinitely, thus close family members and long term acquaintances usually get to eventually see the ugliness behind the facade.
I am now in a different stage of healing. I want to focus more on what I have to change about myself than on the red flags of disordered people. I find it takes tremendous courage for me to get up every day and be the kind of person who attracts genuinely kind people and repels the disordered people. As I advance through the healing stages, I find myself attracting more and more of the right people and less of the disordered people. These last few years, I have been really cleaning house, as far as allowing disordered people into my inner circle, while starting to feel more worthy of having genuinely kind people as my friends. One of my challenges for a long time was feeling bored with people who were high functioning who did not have any drama that I could listen to or help them with. My challenges now include: Not making any effort to explain why I am treating disordered people in the ways I do to protect myself, as there is zero reciprocity with them. To be a better friend to those who I really do care about.To a certain extent still want to rescue people though I have made great progress with this tendency.  I have avoidant attachment so close relationships are challenging for me, as I tend to isolate myself too much. Too much isolation on my part makes me feel desperate for company and way too friendly to the wrong kind of people. The pandemic is over as much as it can be, though I have made changes to my life that are going to be permanent. I no longer get cheap massages where there is a heavy trafffic of employess and clients. I cut my own hair. It is time to get out of the house and back to seeing people I care about!  I also need to make it a bigger priority to find a safer place to get massages.

[livednlearned]

I have avoidant attachment so close relationships are challenging for me, as I tend to isolate myself too much. Too much isolation on my part makes me feel desperate for company and way too friendly to the wrong kind of people.

At my lowest, I felt I had an avoidant attachment style but over the years that has changed. Do you see the same thing happening for you? Do you see signs of a secure attachment style in your friendships?

There is research I came across somewhere -- it was around attachment styles and friendships -- that people who thought they would be likable tended to be liked. It is likable to be likable 

It seems to be connected to confidence which I am learning relies on quite a bit of courage. I used to think people were either confident or they weren't, but lately it seems like there is a choice. And that choice can feel vulnerable.

Sort of like: People choose to feel confident when they are in an unfamiliar situation, and more confident people make that choice more often. At least that's what it seems to me as I get older. I'm more likely to decide wth, why not view this moment with confidence.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
In response to your questions, I am developing secure attachment. I view my avoidant attachment as something that will never go completely away, though with time the secure attachment will be what I hope to have most of the time. At one time, I was obsessed with being completely healed from all the abuses I have suffered and suffer at the hands of my disordered family members and their flying monkeys. I now accept that these are life long sorrows and take time to feel the sorrows on a regular basis. It is like a parent losing a child. The parent will always need moments to grieve the loss of their child. I have known and seen many people who have life long losses, and in spite of all the losses, have mostly happy productive lives while regularly feeling their pain and sorrows. The road that has led many of the members to be on this site, is growing up in a family in which all painful feelings were stuffed and being expected to be agreeable all the time by the disordered people in our lives no matter how badly we were being abused. The reality is life is hard, and we have to make real efforts to face our pain to be able to genuinely enjoy life and be able to be authentically kind to ourselves and others. I find facing my life long losses, is slowly giving me a quiet peaceful confidence I never had before. It is the moments in which I lose my bearings, feel lonely and out of touch with myself, that I have poor boundaries in situations and with people, and I truly don't like myself in these moments, though I am less judgmental about being human than I used to be. Thank you for your ongoing support, compassionate listening, and great questions.

[livednlearned]

It is the moments in which I lose my bearings, feel lonely and out of touch with myself, that I have poor boundaries in situations

Oh zachira, this gave me such a profound moment of introspection.

Feeling lonely => being out of touch with myself.

Do you think loneliness is driven by being out of touch with ourselves? I mean, I know we think of loneliness as a function of people around us. But maybe at it's core it's about us being with ourselves.

If hurt people hurt people, and people who feel more likable are more likable ... then maybe loneliness is about losing touch with ourselves.

 

[zachira]

To join in on the discussion of transactional relationships, I find there are basically three kinds of relationships. There are healthy relationships in which there is genuine caring and empathy for both people in the relationship. There are transactional relationships in which both members use each other, and the relationships are superficial. I have observed many transactional relationships in which both members do the most horrible things to each other at times, than restore the phony nice to the relationship, so they can continue to take advantage of each other and/or to unite as flying monkeys to harm others. The third kind of relationship that most members seem to be describing having with the disordered people in their lives, is what I will call the one way street relationship in which a disordered person completely takes advantage of another person and never gives back.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
From my perspective, being lonely is often about isolating myself from people to the point that I am feeling emotionally needy and dysregulated, and thus not taking care of my needs for healthy relationships. Timing is key in avoiding getting emotionally overwhelmed. When is it time to walk away or end a conversation? What healthy habits do I need to practice daily so I am present with my feelings and emotionally available to be comfortably present with myself and others?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I have pondered what you said about being able to show our teeth also means our kindness is genuine. It makes me think about how disordered people have a public image that they try to sell to everyone which cannot be maintained indefinitely, thus close family members and long term acquaintances usually get to eventually see the ugliness behind the facade.

I see the parallele. I don't see the facade of narcissists and borderlines as kindness. There is always something else spilling over, like an overly big need for the "kind act" to be validated much more than needed. Real kindness doesn't require constant validation. It just is. My brother acts as a savior, he listens but it simply doesn't feel genuine. The kindness he shows, while it can help at times, often has a sour savor... Like an insistance? Or backhanded compliment, or instead of listening, he tells you how you feel, and help whatever he thinks you are feeling. If he is in point, it can appear as kindness, but there is a ickyness to it. But then... On the moment it's harder to see... So I wholeheartedly agree that it is much easier, and healthier, to focus on ourselves and what we can do and change in us, to attract the right kind of persons, and naturally be repulsive to abusers.

I don't mean to hijack the subject here,  but I think it applies on that thread... I was gaslighted by one of my client yesterday. I am doing their work for them under a contract that will last many years, and twice now, I've gotten there and lost a lot of time because they weren't ready. The first time went ok. The second time, they didnt have the right truck and had me lost 1.5hours because I had to follow them to a garage, then they didnt have the required keys and equipment that they were supposed to provide. The third time, I said I would be there at a specific time, and they okayed it. But then didn't show up. When the guy finally arrived, he told me, surprised, that this kind of timing would never have worked.

So I decided to bring the discussion to the client, because there was a change of scope warranted for unrelated issues here that forced me to report the work (out of our control, both of us). I brought up all the time lost for me and my subcontractor because their team wasn't ready (didn't know where to go, arrived 45minutes late, etc.). I wanted to open his eyes to all the loss I am incumbing on this lump sum project because of their lack of coordination.

And I was sent back a letter filled with gaslighting, asking me to take responsibility and coordinate their team internally, how the other contractor were completely autonomous (they weren't, the client still always had a representative present), how I was expected to know exactly were all their infrastructure are (they are often in wooden area, on their property, for which the roads are not always visible from Google). I mean... He is paying a lot less than he would if I was completely autonomous too, so he is gaining from this arrangement.

Maybe I was wrong to bring up my losses, I am learning to do business... But my email was overall very polite, while his was filled with gaslighting and threats (by bringing up the past consultant). A simple no would have suffice. I've seen signs, before, that this specific guy was a bit off... He seemed angry at one reunion, and I still don't know why, never shook my hand and just left. And the guy I do the work with told me he heard him many times scream in the office at someone else, like... Having tantrums.

The last change of scope, he made himself look like a hero while giving me backhanded compliment on my work, which is simply unnecessary, it's a business environment and I am a consultant not a client. He wanted me to do more because I'm the end : he likes what I do for them and it's not too expensive too. But somehow, he mentioned how I couldn't be as good as others because I didn't have the ressources, but they were happy saving money... But I've seen the other consultant work and it is filled with redondandy and mistakes. This was just unwarranted.

So... Now I kinda know more who I am dealing with, and am stuck in a client/consultant position. This is new to me. And I am unsure how to proceed. I decided I would take the cut, and cover the loss. A simple no would have suffice on their end, we'd have negotiated. The gaslighing and "setting unattainable expectations" were unnecessary, but he chose to go this way ... I do wonder if he'd have dared do this if I was a man, honestly.

Showed the email to H, and he said I should stop working for them . That's how bad the email was. Now I have to call him today to manage this... I am stressed.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I'm actually wondering... No way there are so many people with PDs around... So one has to wonder : are these merelly the strategies our culture and society are teaching children to survive? Gasligthing, manipulations, attacks

Our trauma made us sensitive, empathetic, we double guess ourselves much more than the general individual. Which is by bad, most of us a incredibly stubborn and resilient too, we survived worst, we know we can rely on ourselves to find solutions and get where we want to be, despite loneliness, despite pain. We do this without hurting or discharging ourselves on others, because we are aware of the pain this attitude creates. Sometimes I wonder if we are just maladapted to this culture? We don't understand those strategies, we are sensitive to them, and it makes it hard to navigate relationships with people embarassing the culture and strategies taught in it without second guessing them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... Business and work relationship are, by default, transactional. And there is no room for taking things personal. I talked with my client, and he wasn't exactly angry, but he warned me about my image, how I had to keep my frustrations for myself when it comes to their lack of coordination, as this is not the kind of relationship they were looking for, and that I would have to learn to deal with their way of doing things.

He was ok, on the phone. And I don't really have a sour taste in my mouth. But it made me realize that ... It was my right to request a deduction, and it is their right to say no. Still, I feel like I f*ucked up, and a lot of my trigger had to do with fear of backlash and of not being forgiven... Which truly stems from my BPD mother and how I was raised... But most people will forgive and give second chances, yet I hate having to ask for one, and it scares me to rely on the mercy of others, which is likely why I mostly keep to myself.

We weren't given mercy... Were we? It makes it hard to navigate and accept our own shortcomings.

[Notwendy]

I don't know how many PD's are out there, but the family dynamics when there is a family member with a PD are very similar to families with a family member who has another disorder and also addictions. I think this results in a larger number of people with these behaviors than actual PD's.

I saw an episode on Dr. Phil where a teen had anorexia, and the whole family was focused on that. This gave her a lot of emotional power. If she refused to eat, the family would be all over her emotionally. They were all enabling her. Naturally, they were terrified of her making herself ill if she didn't eat and because of this, she had emotional power. It's similar to my BPD mother having the emotional power in the family, or someone with an addiction and the whole family worried about them.

A while back, a co-worker snapped at me. I went back to my office and hid, just like a child might from an angry parent. She came to see me later to apologize- saying she was stressed over something and it was not my fault. So I get it- being scared when facing an angry client, or upset co-worker, even if the situation is different.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
You are wisely distinguishing between being nice to manipulate others and genuine kindness. I feel a warm place in my heart when people who are able to be genuinely kind have body language that is kind and loving. It feels icky when the person pretending to be nice is doing so to get away with abusing others.
It is horrible to be abused in a business relationship. I have talked to people who have their own business who could pick and choose their clients, who told me they simply turn down the worst clients, usually ones they risk losing money on because of their unreasonable demands (never mind the stresses involved in dealing with them). Dr. Ramani, an expert on narcissism, is adamant about not giving the wrong people second chances, as it just leads to more abuse and worst abuses. We are all a work in progress (as nobody gets people right all the time at first) in learning to distance ourselves from disordered people as soon as we can.
I feel sad for you, as I know how upsetting it can be to be treated so badly. It is so hard to share how we feel with people who are not capable of hearing another point of view that is not their own. You are wise to end your business relationship with this guy if you can, as this guy seems to think it okay to treat you badly. I agree with you, that he probably would not dare to treat a man like this. Women who work for paid wages are resented by a lot of men, particularly if they are smart and in postitions to make key decisions. If you continue with the relationship, what boundaries do you need to set for yourself and for the client, that maybe should be spelled out at the beginning of all of your buisness relationships? What are the deal breakers that would terminate a business relationship? So many businesses these days have long contracts written by a lawyer to protect the business from unreasonable losses and lawsuits.
I hope you will soon feel better. It can take a few days to wind down from being abused like this, and bringing this to the thread is not a hijack, as what you are describing very much feels like what I am dealing with the man in the park.

[Methuen]

So... Now I kinda know more who I am dealing with, and am stuck in a client/consultant position. This is new to me. And I am unsure how to proceed. I decided I would take the cut, and cover the loss. A simple no would have suffice on their end, we'd have negotiated. The gaslighing and "setting unattainable expectations" were unnecessary, but he chose to go this way ... I do wonder if he'd have dared do this if I was a man, honestly.

Showed the email to H, and he said I should stop working for them . That's how bad the email was. Now I have to call him today to manage this... I am stressed.

Riv3rW0lf, if a friend told you this was happening to them, what advice would you give the friend?  Why?  What advice do you give yourself?

I am not a business person.  But.  A) You deserve to be listened to and heard, which should translate into a change of behavior on his part. Perhaps this was the first time this happened? B) You deserve to be treated respectfully.  Can you say you felt heard and respected?  So, as an independent observer knowing nothing about the situation except what you have described, I would suggest that what this dude would learn if you take the cut and cover the loss, is that he can do it again.  And again.

Just like Zachira (and all of us) are working to attract healthy people in our lives as friends and acquaintences, and not get caught in the webs of more disordered people, I am going to speculate that you also want to attract the kind of client who respects you and doesn't expect you to pay for their disorganization with your time.

A fair negotiation between you and him would have been for you to split the difference.  My dad used to haggle with people this way. But he expects you to cover 100% of the extra time resulting from his lack of planning.  Why shouldn't he pay 50% of the extra costs in time?

Zachira said: "I have talked to people who have their own business who could pick and choose their clients, who told me they simply turn down the worst clients, usually ones they risk losing money on because of their unreasonable demands (never mind the stresses involved in dealing with them). Dr. Ramani, an expert on narcissism, is adamant about not giving the wrong people second chances, as it just leads to more abuse and worst abuses."

I totally support this.  My dad was a small businessman.  In fact, he was a one man business.  Like you, he started slowly.  But his connections and reputation grew, and he would always take on a new client in the beginning, but if there was no "mutual benefit" to the relationship, he wouldn't take them a second or third or forth time.  He ended up making good money (which my mom benefits from because he got sick and died after his retirement). During his working years, his reputation grew, and he got to the point where he had to turn down work. Eventually, he got to pick and choose his clients and only keep the best ones he wanted.

Many people here know my story of returning to work out of retirement to set a boundary so that my mother couldn't demand my servitude to meet her needs.  Fifteen months after accepting that job (and coming out of retirment), I fully acknowledge that I was working for a dysfunctional boss, and despite loving what I was doing and loving my clients, I had to leave because the dysfunction of the boss was driving me crazy and making me miserable.  I recognized that with a dysfunctional mom in my private life, I wasn't prepared to suffer a dysfunctional boss in my work life too, especially if a main driver to my working was to avoid a dysfunctional mom.  So a month ago, I changed jobs.  My clients were crushed.  It was a terribly hard decision.

I realize you are still growing your business, and that you want to keep the clients you have happy while continuing to grow a longer client list.  

So, is this a client worth keeping?  Has he treated you well in the past? Or is there a significant risk of more future headaches?  Is his behavior a trigger to you?  How many chances will you give him?  With each chance will he feel entitled to another chance?  Will it get harder to "release" him, the longer you keep him as a client?  Can you set up clear expectations with him at this point, and feel safe doing so? Or... listen to your good husband's advice...?

On a lighter note, maybe an unexpected Judo throw would help him see he should respect you.  Just kidding.  You are your own boss. You get to decide how to proceed with this dude.  Don't let him assume the driver's seat, by simply giving into his gaslighting.  You can lay out your expectations from here on forward.  You've got this.

[livednlearned]

The last change of scope, he made himself look like a hero while giving me backhanded compliment on my work, which is simply unnecessary, it's a business environment and I am a consultant not a client. He wanted me to do more because I'm the end : he likes what I do for them and it's not too expensive too. But somehow, he mentioned how I couldn't be as good as others because I didn't have the ressources, but they were happy saving money... But I've seen the other consultant work and it is filled with redondandy and mistakes. This was just unwarranted.

So... Now I kinda know more who I am dealing with, and am stuck in a client/consultant position. This is new to me. And I am unsure how to proceed. I decided I would take the cut, and cover the loss. A simple no would have suffice on their end, we'd have negotiated. The gaslighing and "setting unattainable expectations" were unnecessary, but he chose to go this way ... I do wonder if he'd have dared do this if I was a man, honestly.

Riv3rW0lf, what would a man do in response to this guy's comment?

I am a bit fixated on identifying and addressing misogyny since it is overt in my family. First born boy is precious, second-born girl is good for doing dishes.

Only when I assert myself is there even a hint of interest or maybe sometimes a seed of respect. It took me into my 50s to learn to assert myself.

You asserted yourself. The other guy did what many guys do, he jousted.

Do you want to work for this person? It is like haggling in another country. Do it well and it's a game. But maybe you don't want this particular game, you want it straight up with none of this bs. Either way, you do a great job and you know it, the reasons for your frustration are perfectly normal and even if you're new to building your business many people walk away from difficult clients. Some will take difficult clients and spread the pain to other parts of the team.

It would take me days to overcome a joust like this, I'm not quite there yet. And sometimes I hand the damn lance or sword or whatever it's called and then stand there waiting to see what they'll do. Some lessons we learn a few times and then some.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... Thank you all for you replies and wisdom. I've had to take a real long look at this. Like your father, Methuen, I am a one-person business right now, and I'd like, in the future, to see it grow enough that I have a team working with me; a team I can rely on when I need to catch a little break too ! This is new for me. In my past positions, I was shielded of having to deal with clients directly by the project managers and president. I still meet some clients, but when it came to project scope, change of scope and being paid, it wasn't me. Now I do everything, from A to Z, and am slowly learning the ropes of all this. My previous boss was also abusive... You were right to switch position, especially coming back to work ! You are too wise for this now, and with all your experience, you deserve much much better.

Looking back on what happened, I think I was actually unfair too. I requested they cover the extra cost stemming from this "God clause", as well as the loss of time due to their disorganization. I should have, from the start, split the losses from the "God Clause", which I ended up doing when my H pointed it out to me. I agreed, and I could see immediately how this was not proper business. I still think the client could have just pointed this out and did not need to go the extra length of gaslighting and defensiveness. I felt he was triggered and chose to bully me into place, instead of just : pointing out the obvious lack of fairness, to which I'd have agreed immediately... It kinda showed his true colors though, so maybe it is a good thing. Now I know I will need to switch my strategies with them, and adapt. It's like marrying into a dysfunctional family and having to learn the rules.

Requesting them to cover it all was out of character for me, and I think it stems from my own resentment right now... This client takes a lot of my time, much more than other clients... I "won" them when I first started, they were my second client, actually (the other one is great and easy to work with) and in order to get them, I offered them the preferential treatment that I would offer as a sub. They are a VERY big firm and I needed an incentive for them to switch the work over to me. So they pay me a fraction of the rate of my other clients.  Despite that : he still acts like he is "gifting" me work, somehow. Which... Kinda take away my achievement? I won them, fair and square, because I was aggressive and offered the right image, I gave them an incentive, met them, showed them what we could do. Won other contracts from the big boss during a meeting because I answered right. It was me winning them, not them gifting me anything.

I ended up calling him after the email exchange, and it was business as usual, like nothing happened. So I thought : ok, it's possible I misread the whole thing. But when I brought up the disorganization and how I would appreciate them being on time, he cut my off and started telling me it was not his problem and to deal with the other manager... The thing is : this guy has been my go-to from the start of the project, and all of a sudden, I was expected to know who to deal with and when. He said I was expected to know how to reach all their infrastructure, and be completely autonomous. To which I answered : "every time you will switch consultant, there will be an orientation period. You cannot expect me to know exactly the location of all your infrastructure if your own crew don't." So...  I didn't completely bend over... But from what I gathered, he expects me to act as if I am "part of their team and culture"... He wants it to be smooth, and he doesn't want to hear about my frustration. This is how they work, and this is how it will be, and I need to adapt. I mean... Fair enough, in a sense. I get that they are also evolving in a chaotic, disorganized business. They lost a lot of information when the more experienced staff left retired; a lot of people left to work somewhere else. But, no he didn't hear me and he didn't want to either. Not really. He is basically seeing me as a "part time employee", instead of a firm he is doing business with. I guess this is the risk of being a "one woman business". I am the employee and the CEO, and the client can feel lost as to which hat I am currently wearing. I can certainly accommodate their needs, and already agreed to help them organize the work I am doing to make transition easier in the future. I revamped their inspections forms entirely, and they loved it and so made a change of scope to get me more money to make more addition and upgrades. But again, he thinks he is gifting me the work, when in fact, I am selling it... There IS a difference! an important one, I WANT to help my client and work for them, but they need to realize I am WORKING for the money, not being gifted anything. They don't get to save me.

He mentioned again how they were "accommodating me" because I didn't have another person to complete the visit with for safety, and reiterated that the other contractors didn't need that... But I know that the past contractor were also being accompanied, because the representative they send with me talks a lot, and he told me! So... he manipulated truths, to make them look like the savior of my small business instead of looking at this for what it is : a business agreement for which they are getting A LOT because my rate was very competitive.

I guess the boundaries got crossed. Half-way during the phone calls, he actually started patronizing me, coaching me about how to do business. This guy is my age, and only worked for big firms prior to working for the firm-client (I worked 6 years out of province, in another language, for a small business low on resources with VERY varied tasks), yet he started telling me it's normal to "wait on a client for up to 4 hours" on jobs. And how I needed to be cautious for my image, because I wasn't giving a good vibe. I realized it wasn't worth it to argue with this kind of person and I "let him win", I said, Ok, I will cover the expenses and absorb all the loss. AND HE SWITCHED. He changed his tone and started telling me how it was ok to be frustrated, how I could always repay myself elsewhere (basically telling me to overbill on another contract I have with them), because he had been so kind already to extend the scope of the project (for work I NEED TO DO TO GET PAID FOR), but he couldn't set a precedent, that they would show mercy if I corrected my ways.

I was starting to feel like I was wrong, but writing it out truly helps me see just how messed up it actually is.

I am in for three years for the initial contract. And I got another one directly that will take me a few months. Then the change of scope because they wanted me to help them organize their projects and facilitate transitions between consultants, if needed. So I will need, like you said Zacchira, strong boundaries when I deal with him.

To a certain point, I actually don't mind bending over and letting him think he is the big boy coaching me on business, honestly... Especially on this. I was still able to secure some money for my sub, and I will cover the rest of the losses... Maybe not everyone will agree with this but : at the end of the day, I can bill it elsewhere (he is so kind, he even gave me the idea!   ). If he won't allow me to be upfront and respect me as the CEO of my firm, I will sneak my power in. It doesn't mean I will say yes to all his whims and requests. I am noticing a pattern in men doing this with me... telling me how to do my work. Never mind that I am the CEO of my own business, have a master thesis in hydraulics, and finished my engineering degree with honors, of course not : they always somehow know better than me. This is frustrating at times, but if it means he will be giving me more money because he wants to "save the woman in need", then go for it, pal. That's the game I can play, Livednlearned. Let him think he wins... Pay myself back when I can. It's not the kind of relationship I was hoping for with them, but if it is the kind of relationship they want to offer, I will have to adapt myself to not get completely f*cked over.

He wrote me yesterday again, and he was hinting that he wanted me to go back to take measurements at a site I already visited (I couldn't take the measurements because THEY didn't have the key!)... This will be a hard no, unless he wants to pay for the visit. This is what I mean by disorganization. How am I supposed to know the freacking key won't work? Ain't this their problem to provide me with keys that work? Or should I also go to a freacking locksmith for them too? I mean, seriously.

I will not let him drive. But I might need to let him think he is driving for the next three years. Maybe I just "play a part", now that I see he likes to get the good role and save... Maybe I act as a woman in need to get him to give me money. It's not something I particularly enjoy doing but I am starting to realize that always being upfront and sticking to my values simply does not work...  I need to be smarter than this, and stretch my boundaries a bit.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
You are learning a lot about how to deal with all kinds of people and situations, something the disordered people in our lives generally can't do. You are wisely realizing that you will have to deal with this man in similar ways that you do with your disordered family members: not sharing your feelings or too much information. With other types of clients, you can surely have more rewarding relationships, and figuring out what you are looking for in future clients, could be the key to your business succeeding beyond your wildest dreams.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You are learning a lot about how to deal with all kinds of people and situations, something the disordered people in our lives generally can't do. You are wisely realizing that you will have to deal with this man in similar ways that you do with your disordered family members: not sharing your feelings or too much information. With other types of clients, you can surely have more rewarding relationships, and figuring out what you are looking for in future clients, could be the key to your business suceeding beyond your wildest dreams.

Zacchira, I think you edited your comment before I could answer. But I liked the way you put into words what I needed to do, to not give him too much feedback, and do what I need to do to fulfill the terms of the contracts while dealing with him only when absolutely needed. I already strategized that I would contact the representative much more to let him know directly when the visits were scheduled, to circumvent the poor management of the supervisors. I know this specific guy cares about doing his job right, so I know he will be there on time, or will at least let me know when and why he cannot meet the proposed schedule.

As for the main clients, I hadn't really opened up emotionally or anything, he is the one that brought up "feeling frustrated" and I didn't confirm nor infirm this statement. I just let him talk. I make it a point to keep things on a professional level with my clients... I was mostly asking for better coordination on their part to lower my loss of time, and they refused to improve, and stated I am the one who needed to adapt to them. This is where I need to be smarter on ways to manage this so that I don't end up being taken advantage of beyond what is reasonable.

I am also aware I am a perfectionist, and it is likely that many clients will not be able to "meet my standards", which are sometimes even too high for myself... This is something I am however willing to work on and improve, to make my clients feel more at ease.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Zacchira, I've been meaning to ask, have you gone to the park again these past few days? Have you found your feeling of safety back while there?

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for asking if I have been to the park. Yes, I have and I do feel differently about going there, as I am cautious about not running into this man, while still able to enjoy my time there. So far I have not seen him, and I do think he is more afraid of me than I am of him.
I keep learning new things that are painful to learn yet help me to make better choices and feel better in the long run. I think my days of being friendly to nearly everyone without healthy boundaries in place are a work in progress. I have been way too friendly to complete strangers my whole life, so making changes is going to take some hard work on my part. If we pay attention, there are lots of clues about who a person is, even if we have just met her/him. I find that healthy safe people have body language that is congruent with what he/she is saying and doing. I often have said that I do not consider a person a friend until we have disagreed on something and still want to be friends even if we have very different points of views about certain things. Disordered people seem to want everyone to see things their way and any kind of disagreement that is not in line with their points of view can get ugly very fast. This man in the park seems to only know how to deal with his discomfort about being around me by insulting me, definitely not the type of person I want to have any kind of contact with.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was answering on another thread and I had a Ha! Ha! moment about myself, and about what is likely happening with my neighbors, and with other people I meet, truly.

Personnality mirroring : I do a lot of it. Often despite my best intentions. I will see myself doing it, and will fail to stop myself. This happens naturally for most people, on a reasonable level, but I think I do it as a form of protection, hiding who I am, and to fit in more easily. I am quite good at it, and while I sometimes "get made", most times, it actually works,as long as the relationship remains on a superficial level. I think I do it more than the average person, as a result of having a BPD mother.

It made me realize, that a lot of the ickyness I feel is a result from this mirroring, when I mirror a personality type I don't enjoy; one that is more judging. Then I leave feeling bad. I think a lot of my work will have to be to learn to remain true to myself in all context...judo helps with that, because it boosts my confidence, but it's still quite hard to completely manage this tendency I have of hiding behind my interlocutor's personnality... What a good defense I developped over time though.

I remember thinking, quite often : "I don't like who I am when she/he is around..." A piece of wisdom and truth I didn't understand back then, but now I do... It also explains why I started feeling so lost when H left. He is the one I mirror the most, probably also the closer to who I really am, because I don't feel exhausted or bad with him, ever. And being with him kinda boost my own ability to be myself in public? Does that even make sense?

I also think my ickyness when it comes to my immediate neighbor is that she is trying to mirror me, and often fails to. She tried different personnalities type to mirror me, but always fell short. It's hard to mirror a chameleon. But I didn't understand the root of the ickyness until now. I probably mirrored her too at some point, until the first stabs, then I stopped and took a step back, which made me notice her mirroring of me, but it came across as terribly fake, which threatened me.

Here's a short article about it : https://www.16personalities.com/articles/personality-mirroring-how-it-can-help-you-and-what-to-watch-out-for

I need to read more on it though...

Anyone relates to this?

Edit : it seems to be also the crux of the borderline disorder. So chances are I learned this from my mother. I don't think I have an unstable sense of self like her, I don't have the panic of being alone, on the contrary, being alone has a calming effect for me, because I get to just be. So maybe just a learned behavior, worsened by trauma?

" The chameleon effect has been shown to have a positive impact on human social interactions. According to Tanya L. Chartrand and John A. Bargh, two psychologists who were the first to explore the phenomenon, very empathetic people are more likely to imitate others than people who aren’t.

When a person is truly empathetic, they pay more attention and form deeper connections with the person they are interacting with, which makes them more likely to mimic.

However, when people who aren’t very empathetic attempt to mimic someone else, the gesture can ring false and have the opposite effect of the social advantages one typically gets because of the chameleon effect.3"

Zacchira, it makes so much sense for me now too why your psychologist told you to focus on how YOU were feeling inside when in the presence of the disordered person. if we mirror someone who isn't safe, then we become, for a while, like them? But if we keep focussing on ourselves, we get to protect ourselves from our own empathy, staying safe within ourselves instead of feeling like them? Is it a steep learning curve because we are going against our own mirror neurons and empathy?

[zachira]

I have known for a long time that it is unhealthy to mirror certain emotions like anger. Your perspectives and the article are really helpful.This is an article I will reread many times. I realize now that I need to notice how I feel inside when with another person. If I am not feeling good about myself, than I need to keep the relationship at a very superficial level. If being around a person brings out the best in me, than this is a safe person to mirror. Some of the most wonderful people I have/have had in my life, are/were always kind about giving me feedback, and their feedback helped me to be more successful in building healthy relationships with them and others. These wonderful people also see/saw me as a worthy person with many fine qualities. The main focus in these relationships is/was alway on connecting with some helpful feedback on occasion, mostly about improving our connection. With the disordered people, the focus of the relationship always seems to be on their being in control with some pretty destructive criticism of my persona once they had me seduced by their false facade of niceness and/or helplessness. The disordered people have used my too many personal disclosures, as a means to control me and character assasinate me all of a sudden. I will use what you have taught me today for the rest of my life. It is like the piece of advice my therapist gave me about noticing how I was feeling inside when in the presence of a disordered person. I add to that advice that it is always important to notice how we are feeling inside when around another person. When it is safe to do so, we can empathize with another safe person. I am so happy for you, that you have a husband who you can safely mirror who surely is also the kind of father your children deserve. As far as the man in the park goes, I never felt seen by him and indeed I wasn't. I was someone who gave him the kind of attention he craved until I showed some of my vulnerabilities and this made him want to run.

[Notwendy]

I used to also feel like a chameleon and people pleased. I think it's inevitable that we learned some dysfunctional behaviors- because they were functional in our disordered families. The only emotions that were tolerated were BPD mother's. If someone mirrors it is someone else's emotions. People pleasing is out of fear. If we actually disagreed with someone, maybe they won't like us. Or maybe we won't like them. This was too much of a risk to take in our families of origin.

I think one difference is our self awareness of these behaviors- and the motivation to work on changing them.

[livednlearned]

This is so interesting Riv3rW0lf.

It explains some of the social discomfort I feel being around SD26.

Looking back, she actually began mirroring me more when I started to have boundaries with her.

And the more I felt her mirroring me, the more boundaries I developed.

I wondered if I was taking things too far. That article makes me think it's a form of self-preservation when you feel someone being disingenuous. When I feel her mirroring me, it feels manipulative. I don't want to give her more to mirror so I share less.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I used to also feel like a chameleon and people pleased. I think it's inevitable that we learned some dysfunctional behaviors- because they were functional in our disordered families. The only emotions that were tolerated were BPD mother's. If someone mirrors it is someone else's emotions. People pleasing is out of fear. If we actually disagreed with someone, maybe they won't like us. Or maybe we won't like them. This was too much of a risk to take in our families of origin.

I think one difference is our self awareness of these behaviors- and the motivation to work on changing them.

I am glad you mentionned people pleasing Notwendy ! I see people pleasing and mirroring as two different things. Mirroring comes naturally between humans. I read somewhere else that part of the brain containing mirror neurons get affected by trauma as well, and we mention often on here how empathetic a lot of us became... Like mind readers, hyper vigilant. Maybe we can be people pleasers at times too, but I don't think mirroring is the same... mirroring is done often unconsciously.

I noticed it first when I went at a conference. After my presentation, I talked with various people I didn't know at all, and I noticed myself talk differently, move differently. Everytime, I would adopt my interlocutor general attitude and body language, which resulted in them feeling more at ease. It wasn't on purpose, and when I left, I was exhausted and couldn't wait to be by myself. It is just something I do naturally, however. And I actually feel I do it "well", likely because of empathy. Most of the people I talked too did seem at ease.

I think it helps me "uncover" who those people are too, if only I would listen to myself... Like I mentioned : some people I mirror will leave me with a sour taste afterward, and I don't like who I was with them... They didn't do anything though, I don't know them, but I feel off and will sometimes have this thought that "I don't like who I was with them." And so, I now think it has to do with this mirroring... Connecting to an unsafe energy and personalizing it, when I should, like zacchira mentions often : focus on myself, on how I feel, on who I am, and stop the mirroring. I just didn't know, until now, that I was doing it this often!  

We weren't just scared, we were also asked constantly, to take on the emotional loads of our mother, to live their emotions with, if not for, them. To survive, we had to be them, this being the only way to predict their erratic behavior.

LivednLearned, this sounds like what is happening and happened with my neighbor. It makes sense that the more boundaries you put in place, the more confident you become, the more she will fail to mirror you, and the more you can see and uncover the real her. People with BPD tends to be incredibly impressionable, they are attracted to narcissists for a reason, they like people that feels in control and in power, because it gives them someone to mirror that makes them feel good about themselves... So the more confident and powerful you seem, the more she will want to mirror you. It makes perfect sense to me. But this is just my own opinion from my readings, so to take with a grain of salt...  

Zachira, I am glad this is helpful for you. It is a big realization for me as well. I don't know how it will help me from now on, but I do think it will.

[Notwendy]

Mirroring is interesting and I think it's a part of our interactions. One thing I find interesting is that when my mother is angry about something, she says the same things my father would say.

My mother mirrors me to such an extent that it feels creepy. Sometimes if I say something, she adopts it and uses it as if it was hers, sometimes saying the same phrase to me later. She will ask probing questions and if I answer, she may latch on to that and later use it. If BPD involves a poor sense of self, it's as if she's looking at other people to build her own persona with. Or to have her different personas with different people.

I agree- we all do this to some extent and I think that there's a range of "normal". I think most of us speak and behave differently in the workplace than at home where we are more relaxed and casual. I wouldn't speak to my boss or a client with the same casual tone I speak to my H with.

But if we have an authentic sense of self- that core doesn't change. We are still who we are in these interactions. I have seen my mother with some friends and she's an entirely different person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Mirroring is interesting and I think it's a part of our interactions. One thing I find interesting is that when my mother is angry about something, she says the same things my father would say.

My mother mirrors me to such an extent that it feels creepy. Sometimes if I say something, she adopts it and uses it as if it was hers, sometimes saying the same phrase to me later. She will ask probing questions and if I answer, she may latch on to that and later use it. If BPD involves a poor sense of self, it's as if she's looking at other people to build her own persona with. Or to have her different personas with different people.

I agree- we all do this to some extent and I think that there's a range of "normal". I think most of us speak and behave differently in the workplace than at home where we are more relaxed and casual. I wouldn't speak to my boss or a client with the same casual tone I speak to my H with.

But if we have an authentic sense of self- that core doesn't change. We are still who we are in these interactions. I have seen my mother with some friends and she's an entirely different person.

I agree that pwBPD take mirroring to a whole other extent. When I think of my mother, the only "core" I can sense is anxiety. I think the main difference is that their mirroring is not born from empathy and understanding of the other, which is why it also feels creepy and threatening. It's born from their lack of self and a need to be defined by their observer... They become their observer.

While regular mirroring is an empathetic connection that can allow us to help others feel more at ease. Natural mirroring is not an absorption of the other self, just a deep connection to it. But if we can't control who we connect with, if we have an empathy level that is so strong that we automatically connect to everyone, then we are bound to connect to the wrong people too... In a sense, it is also born from a lack of healthy boundaries too, even if it is not to the level of someone with BPD.

[Notwendy]

Yes, the mirroring from my mother isn't empathetic. It's a need based quality- she needs this to fill some need of hers, but the need is so large. I feel a sense of overwhelm when she does this. She can sense the "block" on my part. I don't want to be used for her own needs.

One of my boundaries is that I don't discuss my father with her.  It was his birthday a while back and she called me. "It's a sad day for me and I suppose you too?" That's how she starts. Nope, not going there. So my reply is- yes, and change the subject.

Another thing she does is express her feelings of discontent over something and someone, and then push me for an approval. She'll say "wouldn't you do the same" "would you" .. and keep asking. If I say yes, she will then consider this an approval, say to someone else "NW said you shouldn't do this". The idea is for her to not be accountable and shift the blame to me or someone else. I will not do that.

Normal empathy would be different. It might sound the same but the purpose is different. Someone might say "this is a sad day" and I might reply- yes, I understand it's a sad day for you" while mirroring their tone of voice. But the objective is to be able to connect with someone, not a need based interaction.

Or I may say to a friend. "It's my father's birthday and that's a sad day for me" and the friend would say in the same tone of voice, "yes, I understand" and I will feel better that I have shared my feelings. Now with my mother you do not share feelings with her. She will grab on to it. If this happens, I feel used. It doesn't feel better.

[zachira]

I think I am finally understanding how the narcissistic people in my large disordered extended family work. They mirror the grandiosity of each other. Family members often comment on what a great family we have. I find that people and families who are truly healthy do not need to brag about themselves, and instead are quietly comfortable being their authentic selves most of the time with the people they have close connections with. I am very unpopular with most of my family members because I refuse to mirror their grandiosity.
I find myself truly interested in others and remember what they share. It is so rare for another person to show any interest in me, though the few close friends I have are genuinely interested in me and I am genuinely interested in them, and there are deep emotional connections along with shared interests in having new experiences that teach us new and wonderful ways to see things.
I think I sometimes shut down people mirroring me when they show no interest in returning my interest in them. I often do not stop showing an interest in people when they have really never shown much interest in me. I am well aware that "How are you?" can mean the same as "Hello". There was once a man who went to a party and when asked "How are you?" responded with "I just shot my mother." and nobody noticed what he said.
For most of human history, humans lived in small groups of 40 people or less. Everyone knew everybody else, so there were more connected relationships with less superficiality. Today a person meets around 10,000 people in their lifetime which is extremely overwhelming and taxing. We have to have two systems in place for dealing with people: one for the superficial relationships and one for the few people we are closely connected to. One of my best friends who comes from a very loving close family says we are lucky to have five close friends in our lives. Healthy people can navigate superficial relationships and close relationships. Healthy people are more aware of when a superficial relationship can become a closer one and know when to move from a relationship becoming too enmeshed to return it to a more superficial one.

[Methuen]

I've read the article on mimicry posted by RW.

I'm trying to integrate "mirroring" into the context of my own mother. On a "neediness" scale of 1-10 (with 10 being the most needy), my mom would be an 8 on a good day, and a 15 on a bad day.

I feel like I'm in a blind spot.  I don't see how she mimics me at all, but that's probably because I'm "missing it". Head in the sand?

We've already told our kids that when the time comes, we will go into assisted living.  Both H and I agree on this. Truthfully, I would rather want a legally assisted death than to put my kids through the torture my mother is putting me through.  I honestly wonder if I am the most miserable now that I have ever been.  At least when I had a career and was raising a family, those things were paramount in my life.  Now, the most paramount thing, is surviving my mother.

My mother and I are so completely different.  Oil and water.  We don't value the same things.
 We don't have anything in common.  Pretty well everything she values I don't. I will have to watch for the mirroring.  The only thing I have been able to think of is that she used to vote one way, and in the 18 years since dad died, she now reports she votes the other way (more aligned with our views), but that is probably a lie too.  I don't believe anything she says.  I suspect everything is a manipulation to meet some "need".  

I am certain there is a big gap in my understanding of how "mirroring" fits my current situation.  

Zacchira I am so genuinely happy that this is a light bulb moment for you.  You are so deserving of finding the pieces that can help in any way, to explain what you have been through.  It makes me smile for you.

I am still waiting for a light bulb moment. If anyone who knows my story, can see the mirroring, I'm very interested in this topic.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I appreciate how kind you are always to me and other members.
This is just an idea that came into my head on how to avoid mirroring your mother, and it could be helpful or not helpful at all. I am wondering if you might try avoiding eye contact with her, as it could be that eye contact possibly begins and ends the mirrroring. Does standing or sitting further away from your mother help? Does it help to have other people around? Does standing or sitting in certain positions help? Would it help to have your husband physically take a position that shows support for you when in the presence of your mother? One position that comes to mind is when you are all sitting down having one of his legs right in front of you like a wall between you and your mother. I did some body mind therapy many years ago, and this is when I first became aware the my family was not normal and was abusive. I use a lot of body mind therapy to return to baseline, which I know you do as well. My heart hurts hearing how much you want relief from your mother, and your wish to not be so affected by how she treats you. We are all keeping are fingers crossed for you that soon you will experience some long term relief and be able to fully enjoy your life.

[Notwendy]

Methuen, I should clarify that my mother and I are not alike. The mirroring is for her to use for her fake persona. For instance, whatever she may feel about my father, she asked me for a response about how I feel on his birthday so when she's talking to someone else she may repeat it to them.

With me, she's herself. I don't see empathy on her part.

I hear you about your situation with your mother. Mine is in assisted living and she's just as difficult there too.

She's been abusive to the nurses, her nurse care manager. She calls me almost every day with a new complaint. She won't do any of the social activities. She complains that she doesn't have family to visit but doesn't make the connection to the way she treats them.

She says she doesn't have family to help her and has to do things on her own. Then, who moved her before she lost the house, who sold the house and her car for her, who has tried to help her organize her finances?  She did none of that. She has family near her and even if I am at a distance, I have done a lot of things for her.

And she takes victim perspective in conversations. Discussions about something simple are circular arguments.

One example is she needs to see the dentist "I have no one to drive me there".  "Mom, they have dentists come to the assisted living " followed by an indignant wail. "Oh NW, I just can't believe you! you are taking away the comfort of familiarity, I want to see MY dentist, not just any old dentist" "That dentist doesn't care about my teeth!"

To which I replied, have you ever seen that dentist? "No".  So how about you make an appointment with that dentist and see if you like them? "OK".

"I'm your mother and you are my daughter and don't speak to me in that tone of voice!"

Interesting about your decision about assisted living one day. I looked at them for my parents when my father was ill. My parents were as difficult about this as my mother is now and I can see how her feelings influenced both their behavior then. I also decided that if I needed that level of assistance one day, I'd consider one, so that I didn't put my kids through the kind of behavior my parents were doing. My H didn't experience this with his parents, so he's more reluctant. It's interesting how our perception of what we'd do is influenced by our experiences with our parents.

No matter what our choices though, we are not our mothers. Even if you stayed in your own home, you'd not behave like your mother. You'd cooperate with home health, and the people who assist you. You wouldn't place undue demands on your family members because you care about them. Same as if you were in assisted living.

I know your situation is more difficult than mine is, due to the proximity of your mother to you. My mother's FOO lives near her and they keep boundaries with her- they have seen her behavior.

We solved one set of problems for BPD mother by moving her, and now she has created them at assisted living too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This is just an idea that came into my head on how to avoid mirroring your mother, and it could be helpful or not helpful at all. I am wondering if you might try avoiding eye contact with her, as it could be that eye contact possibly begins and ends the mirrroring. Does standing or sitting further away from your mother help? Does it help to have other people around? Does standing or sitting in certain positions help? Would it help to have your husband physically take a position that shows support for you when in the presence of your mother?

I agree with Zacchira. My stepmother also suggested I don't do eye contact with my mother, or lower the amount of eye contact while with her to find my baseline.

It's possible that you do not mirror your mother, I also don't see exactly how I mirror my mother, but then I don't need to change how I speak and move a lot to mirror her... We aren't alike, but she still raised me. I don't need to mirror her to take on her emotional load via empathy. The biological bond makes it so that I just take the load. Our emotions become enmeshed to the point where I don't know who is who. Last time, she wrote me a letter describing exactly what I was feeling as if those emotions were hers ! How scared and small she felt, but I am pretty sure those were my emotions, my C-PTSD, yet she had personalized those emotions for herself, then blamed me for them. She'd call me "mom", she had absorbed who I am for herself, and it left me confused. So it might be that there is no mirroring actively done because of the biological bond, it's just there. Which is why I like Zacchira's suggestions, to use body positioning to help you protect yourself from the emotional load and enmeshment... I haven't been able to do it, personally, but I have to believe this is possible.

The mirroring I mentioned was more in the context of strangers, of new acquaintances, of neighbors. I tend to instinctively mirror people to make them feel at ease (this is NOT the same as what a BPD person does). It's like I can connect more easily to them. I think I just have a lot of mirror neurons, and I suspect many here do too, as a result of our upbringing. Like ... Part of a developmental arrest maybe? But maybe not everyone. This is something that will either resonate or not. It might not. And it's ok, we are all different.

What I realize now is that, like Zacchira said, I should only connect to people I love and I know are safe, and control this habit, so that I don't end up connecting to the wrong people. Or I have to figure out how to cut the connection once established if I realize this is not comfortable... Just trying to figure out how I work.

[zachira]

We are all a work in progress in not taking on the toxic emotions that disordered people dump on others, particularly close family members. With a disordered parent, we are really challenged because so many of the overwhelming emotions we are feeling have been projected on to us since early childhood. Perhaps doing a regular comparative list of what emotions, thoughts, etc. belong to the disordered parent and what belongs to us could help, with maybe a big wall or some protective figure drawn between the lists. Certainly we can remind ourselves as we need to of how proud we are of the progress we have made in becoming separate decent people from the disordered parent. I am currently doing trauma release exercises (TRE), which I began doing with my body mind therapist many years ago. There are many TRE exercises on the internet. I find that changing the ways I carry myself, better posture, helps me to feel better and people respond in more positive ways to me, including disordered people keeping their distance.
How have you progressed in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent? What do you want to continue to work on in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent?

[livednlearned]

The mirroring I mentioned was more in the context of strangers, of new acquaintances, of neighbors. I tend to instinctively mirror people to make them feel at ease (this is NOT the same as what a BPD person does). It's like I can connect more easily to them. I think I just have a lot of mirror neurons, and I suspect many here do too, as a result of our upbringing. Like ... Part of a developmental arrest maybe?

It's interesting being here with those of you who have mothers with BPD. My mother has so many similar traits and yet I'm almost certain she does not have BPD. But she does have a very weak sense of self. I think of BPD as someone who has no sense of self. To not have a real sense of self is an order of magnitude more difficult, I would think, than having a weak sense of self. Not just for the person with BPD but for people around them.

Mirroring seems like it is connected to boundaries. I don't think I had a sense of normal boundaries because my BPD sibling had zero, including when it came to physical boundaries. My emotionally stunted parents taught me that having boundaries is what caused my BPD sibling to get angry, and I imagine it felt unsafe to have a strong sense of self because it was too much individuation for the kind of family we had.

I think having a weak sense of self set me up to mirror people. If you have weak boundaries, do you think that makes you more susceptible to mirroring? Is that the connection.

The way SD26 mirrors me feels different. If I'm talking to someone with a different accent, or someone who has different energy, and I notice myself mirroring their accent or behaviors, I notice it right away and try to get a handle on it. I don't think SD26 notices it, or sense there is anything wrong. I think she's trying to merge or fuse in order to solve the problem of me having boundaries.

How have you progressed in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent? What do you want to continue to work on in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent?

This is a really good question, zachira. For me, I substitute "family" for disordered parent. They all go together, they're a unit.

Things I am able to do now, or things that have improved since ending my estrangement 5 years ago:

I have no expectation there will be genuine closeness, or vulnerability or intimacy with members of my FOO.
I share very little of my life.
I protect my son and H, I speak candidly with them to manage visits in advance.
I do not stay with family when I visit.
I limit the time we visit or try to time our visit when a sporting event is on tv so there is a distraction.
I do not drink alcohol so my inhibitions and boundaries are not impaired.
I say no to situations arranged without my input or consent.
I do not get involved in family decisions that have nothing to do with me.
I do not ask follow-up questions when my parents mention my sibling and his family.
My parents no longer put pressure on me to appease my brother.
When my mother is in full waif mode I let there be silence.
I end conversations first.
I have several important phrases I use to get myself out of conversations that typically end badly.
I have been blunt with my son about ways I protect myself and why. He deserves to know the degree to which he can trust them (or not).

Where I struggle and have work to do:

Too easily I try to include them in our schedule when I visit. I give an inch and then give them a mile.
I carry a disproportionate amount of exasperation about decisions they make. It takes me a while to let go.
I feel like a little kid trying to get their approval, especially my father who has many narcissistic traits.
The repulsion I feel for my mother makes it hard to be in her presence for more than a few minutes. Sometimes it's seconds.
I think I'm doing ok when I'm around them only to have a back spasm, or I get vertigo or a migraine.
I struggle with the knowledge that I am the family garbage can. I have done some work but it's still quite painful.

One new thing has come to light.

My mother confuses me. She is very waif-like but recently I noticed something that I consider covert aggression.

She's always been loose with facts and expects people to guess what she's talking about. She's not a smart person, she's not curious or interesting and often has nothing of substance to say. But she likes to be the center of attention and she talks a lot. Sometimes to make it tolerable to hear her talk, I will narrate her story in my head so I don't become enraged. It's confusing to me why I feel such rage about this. Narrating like this helps get myself to a place where I can listen like a neutral observer, curious about this person without letting her impact me. I never understood why talking to her makes me so angry so quickly.

A few months ago she told me a story about how she says innocuous things on purpose to wind a group of women up in her friend circle. She thought it was amusing to say something just to get them wound up. It occurred to me a few days ago when I talked to her on the phone that she does this with me.

She's the kind of person who tells your story, one that you told her, to other people while you're sitting there. So for example if I told her how I had something happen to me one night walking home, she will retell it to people as though it's her story, but all the facts will be wrong and the story will be unflattering.

I think when she wants to be the center of attention and can't, which often happens with me, I think she brings up a story I told her, distorts the facts, to wind me up. A few nights ago, I was talking about my son applying for a job, and she said, "I remember last time he applied he didn't get it because they gave it to someone they thought was better." Then I get baited to correct her, and she is not the center of attention, and I am agitated, which is a form of negative engagement.

When I discover things like this -- my mother using covert ways to get needs met -- it takes a while to figure out how to get centered. It helps explain why I feel so enraged by her even though she's waif-like. Similar to SD26, the aggression is covert.

One thing I remain conflicted about is answering the question about intent. If the intent is to inflict harm, I feel angry. If the intent is to get a scrap of attention from someone abused, I feel compassion. I seem to be constantly swinging between those two, trying to find a neutral place that sits on a solid boundary.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
I have so much respect for all that you have learned and your ongoing courage to continue learning. (Your online name makes so much sense now.) What I also find to be one of my most challlenging dilemmas is how to decide to respond to disordered people based on what I think their intents are for attention. (I use the word intent in the plural, because I believe we will never understand all the reasons disordered people behave in the ways they do, whereas with healthy people we can often easily understand their simple intents.) I am so grateful to so many people who have been kind to me when I am acting like my dysfunctional family members, in moments when I overshare inappropriately or show too much interest in other peoples' lives by asking too many questions when I am feeling lonely for human connection. I do want to be kind to people I can make a difference for and not enable what I would really call evil behaviors, like how you describe your mother baiting you. Currently the extended family is planning my NPD sister's annual large family birthday party. One year I was asked to give the party and I calmly refused. It was not out of jealousy or anger, simply I felt that giving her these big birthday party family events when nobody else in the extended family gets one reinforces her narcissism and that nobody else is as important as she is. Not sure what to say about your mother baiting you except you are well aware of how disordered she is, and anything you share with her, she will find ways to distort it. My mother too shared with people things I told her right in front of me distorting what I told her that made me feel like I did not exist, and that mom was advertising how free she was to distort my reality and negate that I was indeed a separate person from her.

[Methuen]

How have you progressed in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent? What do you want to continue to work on in becoming a separate person from your disordered parent?

This is such an important question.

I have progressed.  I can't put a number to it on a continuum.  I don't think I feel her feelings for her anymore.  That's  huge. When she sends me texts (sometimes multiples in a day or sometimes only 1 a week), I now recognize that she is trying to get me to feel her feelings for her. She's trying to transfer all that fear, sadness, anger onto me.  I no longer "supply" her.  That's major growth on my part. But it makes me frustrated and angry as to what's she's doing.  As we all know, there is nothing I can do to stop (control) her behavior, so I can only control my reaction.  Since she still frustrates me and I still have emotional reactions to her, I clearly still have a lot of work to do. I don't know how to stop these emotional reactions.  They happen a lot because she is so NEEDY and always creating a crisis to get attention.

For example.  A week ago, she finally got to see a geriatrician after waiting a year.  My H transported and went to the appointment with her.  She "performed" for the doctor.  He made the comment while looking at her file: "you appear to be doing better than I was expecting".  Her "performance" for doctors is typical.  She's feeling good.  She has friends come visit so she is social.  She is not lonely. Blah blah blah. On the other hand, when she is with us it's the complete opposite - she's in acute pain, or chronic pain, or complaining about the neighbours...always negative.  Often blaming.  Always waify.  It was a long appointment - 60 ish minutes for his first assessment. Often when she she lied or left information out, my H would interject calmly with some reminders and facts.  He added a LOT. At the end of the appointment, the specialist agreed with the family doc that her many medications for all her multiple ailments should stay status quo.  Kudo's to the family doc and cardiac specialist.  From her perspective, it was a great appointment.  She could keep living independently because she has such great support from friends and family, and it looked to him like she was doing well.  The next day, she got her regularly scheduled macular degeneration shot. That was two appointments in 2 days for my H. The evening after the eye shot, we get a phone call from her.  She's clearly dysregulated.  She's called a friend to the house because something is wrong with the eye that got the shot.  She can't see out of it.  It's painful.  She's in distress.  The friend thinks we should take her to emerg.  So we interrupt our evening, but not before I sound off that this is just another attention seeking event because she had a good geriatrician appointment (note: borderlines will create chaos when everything is going well so they get attention and don't feel abandoned...yes?) So we drive to her house, transport her to emerg (this is an ordeal to move her), and wait there for 2 hours with about 10 people in front of us (a small emerg room with 1 doc on call). She tried to visit.  We said we were tired and kept reading our books. Then a suicide attempt comes into emerg.  So after waiting 2 hours, and hearing about the suicide attempt, she decides her eye is feeling better and wants to go home.   We don't argue with her.  It's her decision.  It's almost 11pm and with so many people ahead of her, she figured out she would be sitting there all night. Emerg has contacted her opthalmologist but not heard back.  So we take her home and then go home ourselves.  The next day the ophthalmologist contacts her.  I don't know what mom said, but she must have been feeling better, because her ophthalmologist did not call her into the office to be checked over.  Two days after that this text came from her:  "I can almost see the writing on TV now.  Am I ever happy."  Then two days after that this text: "I'm so terrified about my eyesight". She had called her ophthalmologist again. That was yesterday.  This morning my H took her to that appointment, and he just texted it went well. No surprise.

Her text saying "I'm so terrified about my eyesight" triggered an emotional reaction from me.  I was really p_ _ _ ed off.  I did not feel her feelings for her.  I am not in the least scared about her losing her eyesight.  In fact if she did, it would likely bump her up the priority list for a care facility of some level and that would force the issue of care. Then the professionals could deal with her.  If she treats them badly, at least they aren't family, they are professionals getting paid for their work. So to answer your question Zachira, I think I have separated my emotions from hers finally.  There was actually a time in my life I would have empathized with her, but those days are long gone. I refuse to be her supply anymore. I see through all the charades and her disingenuous behavior. Meanwhile, I have not figured out how to NOT have reactions to her attention seeking, neediness, dysfunction, demands, or temper.  

My feelings to her are either neutral or negative.  On a good day they are neutral.  What I mean by that is I don't like her or dislike her.  The feelings are the same I would have for passing any stranger at a sidewalk intersection. There is absolutely no emotional attachment any more. I don't tell her anything about my life.  She doesn't even know I changed jobs, or that I'm sick. I don't want a relationship with her because she causes me distress. On a bad day however, I disdain her, dislike her, avoid her.  Generally we "respect" people we admire for some positive qualities.  I don't think my mom demonstrates any positive qualities so it's hard to respect her as a person. If she wasn't my mother, and I didn't have this obligation, she is not a person I would choose to spend any time with, ever.  

The thing I am "working on", is how to avoid having emotional reactions to her behaviors.  My T told me that everyone has emotional reactions, and wanting to not have them isn't realistic.  But if I've emotionally detached from her, shouldn't I be able to not have strong reactions to her?

My mom lives in close proximity.  She is so needy and demanding.  Her texts are constantly in my space.  She is an impossible elderly undiagnosed borderline. Her doctors do not indicate any understanding about her emotional dysfunction. I definitely need to figure out how to manage my reactions, because I'm having way too many of them with her proximity and demands.  It's affecting me too much.  I shouldn't have to work instead of enjoying retirement just to avoid her.  And I believe it's also starting to affect my H who took over the transportation and shopping and does all the lawn mowing and house repairs etc.  She sends all her stupid texts to him too - trying to transfer her feelings onto him when I don't reply.  He sees through it all too, and is also frustrated, but his reactions are more measured and he recovers from them quickly.

If your 87 yr old mother says she needs to go to emerg the day after a macular degeneration shot (when she has a history of endophthalmitis  after a shot in the other eye) how do you not take her?  Endophthalmitis is a legitimate emergency, but just because she had one in the past, doesn't mean this is another one. I actually suggested calling an ambulance, but my H refused, and said he would go get her.  This annoyed me, but in that moment, anything and everything was annoying me. So of course I went along as the daughter to check her into emerg otherwise the optics are bad when she tells all her friends that her "son" (he's actually the son-in-law) took her to emerg.  {Aside: interesting that she calls him her son...?} I have lifelong family connections to many of her friends.  They are good people.  I care about what people think of me.  

I've done so much work on myself, but I still have so much more to do.  I just don't know where to go with it next... or how to manage these negative reactions.

When LNL described her mother and the covert aggression, it fit my mom so well.  Like LNL, I seek approval, but more in the form of broader social approval. My mom twists things to fit her narrative.  Yesterday when she forgot her medical card for an appointment, she blamed me because she said I said she didn't need it.  This made me blow up when I heard about it later.  The night we took her to emerg, I reminded she didn't need her credit card (because where we live, we all pay taxes to receive medical care when we need it, and we don't make private payments at hospitals).  I made sure she had her health care card before we went to the hospital and I was the one who used it to check her into emerg.  But notice that when SHE forgot her health care card for her eye appointment with my H, it was MY FAULT because she twisted the fact and lied and said she didn't bring it because I said she didn't need it (I said she didn't need a credit card).

As LNL said, I am fed up with being her garbage can.

It's like death by a thousand cuts.  Aaachh!  How do I get off this gerbil wheel of negative reactions, cs it's definitely affecting my well-being.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I have so much respect for you for learning not to take on your mother's emotions, as I know it is a lot of work that takes courage to do so while experimenting with different strategies.

Your next challenge may be to perhaps let go of what other people think of how you are taking care of your mother and become indifferent to their judgments and reactions. I can't tell you how many people think I am a horrible person for standing up to my abusive family members who are two faced and charming.

Another challenge may be to continue to explore more options for no longer being so directly involved in your mother's care. You are far from the first person to have to do this, and there can be ways to do so. If you were to no longer be so directly involved in your mother's care, you will definitely be criticized by people who do not really know you or care about you. It is how you feel about what you have done for your mother that counts, and what anybody else thinks does not matter as other people are mostly clueless about the kind of person your mother is, (though I was quite surprised at who does get how abusive my family is once I opened up about it and went low contact with them).

My heart is with you, as are the hearts of many members on PSI. We will keep looking for ways to help you, and are keeping our fingers crossed that some real relief is coming soon whether it is because your mother's status has changed or you have found ways to not let her behaviors no longer affect your wellbeing to the point you are enjoying life most of the time with the people who truly care about you.  

[livednlearned]

I have lifelong family connections to many of her friends.  They are good people.  I care about what people think of me.  

This is a big light bulb insight for me, Methuen.

Caring what people think of me is like an invisible third rail.

To others it looks like unfettered access to wide open space but to me there is a 50 foot wall that stretches to infinity. It's probably part of my values system and also connects to the obligation part of fear, obligation, guilt (FOG) I feel when conflict is in the air.

I am certain that SD26 senses this wall. She sees that I have less room to maneuver because of this value.

I don't see how to ignore this wall because there is so much genuine value in these (often mutually) approving connections.

[zachira]

Methuen and Livednlearned,
What I am trying to say is it is very important to use our internal compass to validate ourselves and not depend on exterior validation. Many members on this site have experienced so much heartbreak because they were brainwashed into caretaking a disordered parent, instead of learning to value themselves as separate people from their parents. When we care too much about what everybody thinks about us, than we set the bar too high to be able to feel comfortable in our own skin and to make many of the decisions we need to make about prioritizing our own self care. It is one thing to care about the feedback from healthy people who are able to be empathetic and who are willing to try to understand our feelings and situations. It is self destructive to value what most people think about us, particularly those who guilt trip us in to maintaining dysfuctional relationships with people who only hurt us. You are the expert on you. Nobody can walk in your shoes. Going low contact with most of my abusive family members has set me up for all kinds of abuse and hurtful criticism from family members, flying monkeys, and people in the community. These are all people who refuse to acknowledge the abuses I have endured as the lifelong scapegoat of many generations of my family, and most know very little about my side of the story. Family and being esteemed in the community are sacred and then they aren't when abuse is being enabled.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think having a weak sense of self set me up to mirror people. If you have weak boundaries, do you think that makes you more susceptible to mirroring? Is that the connection.

I know the conversation has changed since this question, but I've given it a lot of thoughts and wanted to take the time to answer it. I continue to think it's more related to natural empathy... But maybe having a weak sense of self makes it harder to distinguish ourselves, our own emotions, from the emotions of the other person we are mirroring, which is why we are left with an emotional hangover...

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for turning the conversation back to mirroring disordered people. It is an important topic, and something that causes so much distress when we have been brought up to be caretakers for our disordered family members and to tolerate how they abuse us.
From my perspective, having a weak sense of self is often why we try to mirror/please people instead of using a healthy internal compass. In a healthy family, the children are validated and develop a coherent sense of self that is congruent with who they are in private and in public. The splitting of the personality begins in unhealthy families when the child is expected to mirror a caregiver and meet her/his needs. A split personality drastically changes how a person presents herself/himself depending on who she/he is with and the situation he/she is in. In the worst cases of abuse, the child can develop multiple personalities. A child who is sexually abused will often dissociate to tolerate the pain of the sexual abuse when it is happening and then develop a personality that supresses the sexual abuse when it is not taking place in the moment because it is not safe to disclose the abuse. This complete separation from the abuse into"I am not being abused right now." and "Now I am putting on the face that I am not being abused." can become Dissociative Identity Disorder,, having more than one personality while being in one personality being completely unaware of the other personality/other personalities.
Skip, who I believe founded this site, has often said something like this: that the ultimate solution for dealing with the disordered people in our lives is differentiation, becoming people in our own right, separate people from our disordered family members. He unfortunately does not participate much these days. I have found that he is right. My therapist was very strong in Bowen Family Systems Theory. Murray Bowen developed the concept of differentiation. One of the key things my therapist worked on with me was differentiation from my disordered family which is what has allowed me to go low contact with them and begin to form healthier relationships with myself and others.I continue to work on  having a more coherent sense of self.
We spend a lot of time here grieving how overwhelmed we are by being mistreated by our disordered family members and how to no longer be so triggered. I find it frustrating that we have to do so much work on ourselves, yet I do believe the path to being less and less triggered by how badly our disordered family members treat us, is differentiation from our disordered family members as much as that is possible. Since we did not get the support in childhood from our caregivers, I believe that becoming differentiated from our disordered family members will always be something we have to work on.
In your post, you might consider replacing the word "distinguish" with "differentiate" if that is a better fit after learning more about what differentiation is in Bowen Family Systems Theory.
What do you think?

[Methuen]

First, I should apologize for my role in contributing to this thread taking a tangent. Sorry about that. Back to mirroring.

Skip, who I believe founded this site, has often said something like this: that the ultimate solution for dealing with the disordered people in our lives is differentiation, becoming people in our own right, separate people from our disordered family members...One of the key things my therapist worked on with me was differentiation from my disordered family which is what has allowed me to go low contact with them and begin to form healthier relationships with myself and others.

I really relate to this.  I feel I've accomplished differentiation, but where I still have work to do is in not being affected by her behaviors, demands, rudeness, meanness, neediness etc.  I don't feel her feelings for her. I don't think like her.  I don't agree with her.  And I don't feel emotional attachment to her. But she still frustrates me and she still tries to control me, and I can still react to her behavior or her lies or her crazy texts.  Although she attempts to make us her slaves (we practice a lot of boundaries) and her neediness really frustrates me, I'm wondering whether this could mean I'm not fully differentiated from her?  I'm trying to figure this out, cs I certainly feel fully differentiated.   But, I recently let my emotions go unfiltered with a family member recently, and immediately regretted it and apologized.  Was that unfiltered emotion in that moment my mirroring neurons at work?  or just a moment of weakness?    

In a healthy family, the children are validated and develop a coherent sense of self that is congruent with who they are in private and in public. The splitting of the personality begins in unhealthy families when the child is expected to mirror a caregiver and meet her/his needs. A split personality drastically changes how a person presents herself/himself depending on who she/he is with and the situation he/she is in.

 I'm seeking clarification:  I understand split personality and dissociative personality.  I also understand splitting (seeing a person as all white or all black and even reversing the roles).  But is there a connection between these two things?  I've always thought of them independently of each other. Related?  Or not related?

For example,  with family, my mom is waify and needy, impotent, helpless and depressed.  She tells us she's in pain and thinks she's dying. She asks us to make all her phone calls and do everything for her.  We don't, but that doesn't stop her from asking and demanding. There's a constant stream of drama that we have to navigate/ignore.  But with her family doc and the geriatrician she is spunky, energetic, mentally alert, independent and she performs like an absolute star.  It's honestly like a split personality.  I recognize that this is how she has her needs met.  She has one need from her doctors, and a completely different need from us, even though it's all about her care and health. She shows the doctor how "well" she is and puts on a super duper performance, so that she can continue living independently, fool the doc into thinking that she's doing great, and not be "stuck in a home".  But another need is for us to care for her, so all her waify helpless behavior comes out for us in the form of demanding we do things for her that she could do for herself.  It's nauseating.  She doesn't have multiple personality disorder, but she definitely has a poor sense of self.  I think her physical and health disabilities with aging is her way of ensuring her family meets her needs for contact.  In this way, her frailness serves her needs.  But nobody other than her family understands this.

She also splits.  I have been told I am the best daughter ever and that's why she only had one child (total BS). She also spent plenty of time earlier in her life bragging about me and accomplishments I had which were "because she was such a good mother". More recently, I have been screamed at that I am the worst daughter ever because I am selfish (I went back to work so I'm not available to care for her 24/7).  She also threatened to disinherit me when I pointed out some inconsistencies  to an assessor during a RAI assessment (for assisted living about 4 years ago).  I was telling the truth to the assessor, and that was a capitol offense worthy of disinheritance.

I have always assumed that splitting (black/white) and split personality are unrelated issues.  True/False/It depends ?

I guess another thing I'm still working to understand is the connection between splitting and mirroring neurons.  When she's with the family doc, she's mirroring what she wants him to think?  When she's with us, she's mirroring what she wants us to feel for her?  That could explain the completely different personality she presents to us vs the doc...

[Methuen]

Zachira,

To go back to your original post at the beginning of this thread about the dude in the park who wrongly accused you of stalking him, and your reaction of being triggered...

...are triggers related to mirroring neurons in any way?

[Notwendy]

Methuen, our mothers are so alike- although the difference is distance- but with my mother, it's been one crisis after another since we moved her to assisted living and I have made trips to visit to clean up the mess she's making- not out of co-dependency but because, I need this information. She had made me POA but I had no information -but since she has needed help, I have been able to get ahold of the legal documents, accessed her bank info and so on. So, yes, it's been for her benefit but also I have the information I need to act on her behalf. Still, she's legally competent to make her own disordered decisions.

Assisted living is not enough for her. She needs someone to be with her 24/7 but it's unaffordable. I will be speaking to a Medicaid planner soon. She's in rehab/skilled nursing for physical therapy after a fall. The staff is on to her, she's been demanding and mean and uncooperative. She says they are doing nothing for her but when I have been there, the staff is doing a great job. But she doesn't want to follow the rules. She said she would call her doctor for a prescription she needs and I said- they have their own medical staff her. "No they don't" as the nurse walks in with the medicine she was asking about.

I came to see her and she's pushing the call button every 10 seconds- where is someone to help me? She wants someone to take her finished dinner tray away. I said they will come get it. I need them to come NOW!

She still tries to sneak in her own medicine. She asked me to bring some cream from her assisted living. I went to get it and saw it was prescription, so I gave it to the nurse. BPD mother had a fit. " I want it NOW" . She was angry that she didn't get to sneak it in. The nurse came in and said it was the law that patients could not have their own medicine in the room.

That set the tone. They didn't have the "sulk" as a persona in Understanding the Borderline Mother but this is where BPD mother shuts her eyes and hangs her head down and doesn't respond to anyone. They brought her a sandwich, it was wrapped up and I offered to unwrap it and she snarled "NO" I want it like that and then to another aid "don't speak to me like I have dementia, I can unwrap my own sandwich!"

She's supposed to be taking an antibiotic. In the hall, the nurse tells me she's refusing to take it. She asked me to hand her her checkbook- she wanted to look through it with me. The nurse comes in to take her blood pressure and I gently pull the checkbook away to put it next to her so she has a free arm. She snarls at me. The nurse looks at me with remorse.

She's blaming the move for the disorganization of her records. "I had them all organized but then I had to move".

Truly, it's easier for us to have her moved and out of the house, and the house sold. She was unable to keep it up. But although we solved one problem, there's more. It's crisis to crisis.

Everyone I have talked to who has worked with her has said she wants me to be her POA and yet, I am not her favorite child. She's chosen me because I am closer and able to do things for her. Like you Methuen, I have empathy for her but I don't "feel her feelings for her" - this is a lot of progress for you and for me.

She also says things like "I am your mother and you are my daughter" in a commanding voice. Who talks like this to their child. It's not a loving statement, it's a command.

As much as skilled nursing would help your mother, and also be better for you, I think we can expect drama there too.

[zachira]

Methuen,
I don' t think there is such a thing as being perfect in anything. I believe we are never fully differentiated from the people who are our primary caretakers in our early years and throughout childhood. I view differentiation through many complex lenses. One of them is how preverbal trauma affects us when we did not have a caretaker who was emotionally available and how we take on so many ways of being that we are not consciously aware of nor is there a verbal narrative that can become conscious. For this reason, I am constantly exploring new ways to relate to my body because trauma is stored in the body. I keep doing all kinds of body mind work including trama release exercises (TRE). I also find it helps to learn as much as I can about how human beings are different and alike. As you know, I am on a journey of self discovery including working hard to not behave like my disordered family members, as I see myself doing at times. Overall, I am the most differentiated of all my siblings and I have come a long ways, though still will likely be working on differentiation until the day I die.
When you describe the reaction you did not like seeing in yourself, it sounds like there are ways you react instead of responding to things at times. We all do this. This is normal, especially in your situation with your mother which is so overwhelming. I often wonder if you are trying sometimes too hard to be the kind of daughter that others expect to see when there is a normal daughter-mother relationship. I can't begin to express how hard it is do some of the things I do and have done to not be a participant in my own abuse by my disordered family members.
You describe the polarization in splitting correctly. I also see splitting as having a very incongruent personality, like being a communal narcissist in public while abusing family members behind closed doors. Dissociative Identity Disorder is a mental health diagnosis. Splitting is more of a description of certain polarized behaviors.
I not so sure that I was mirroring this man. I was getting my needs met for human contact very superficially. I erred in not honoring my boundary of disengaging ASAP when there is no connection on my part or of the person I am interacting with.

[Methuen]

NW, I'm glad you finally have access to your mom's financial information.  I can empathize at how much time that has taken with meetings and travel and planning, on top of your regular life.  I guess having access to that info is progress.

The staff is on to her, she's been demanding and mean and uncooperative. She says they are doing nothing for her but when I have been there, the staff is doing a great job. But she doesn't want to follow the rules. She said she would call her doctor for a prescription she needs and I said- they have their own medical staff her. "No they don't" as the nurse walks in with the medicine she was asking about.

Yep.  This is the kind of distorted and twisted game playing my mom narrates. Perhaps they are twins.

I came to see her and she's pushing the call button every 10 seconds- where is someone to help me? She wants someone to take her finished dinner tray away. I said they will come get it. I need them to come NOW!

Yep.  In fact, they should have read her mind and come to get the tray without her needing to ring the call bell, right?  Everything needs to be done THE SECOND she asks for it.  Any longer, and she gets her engine revved...

Oh brother I could just quote your whole post.  Twins.

A few weeks ago, my mother called a friend to her house to help her write a cheque to pay a bill.  I think she didn't ask us because she "senses" she's asking us too much, and she's trying to hide her disabilities (as if it's not visible to even a fool).  Yesterday she forwarded an email from the payor, saying they received the cheque but without a reference or note or invoice to apply the payment to.  I ignored it.

Today this email:  "Did you do something about this cheque?"  

She didn't politely ask "Would you be able to help me with this cheque"?  but conveyed her frustration that her demand wasn't attended to promptly.

Later today this came : "I called and she will return the cheque to me. I told her you had power of attorney and would look after it."  

It's the tone.  The demands.  The entitlement.  Her frustration.  The covert blame: "Did you do something about this cheque?"  Then absolving herself of any responsibility by telling the 3rd party I would look after it without considering to ask me.

No acknowledgement she didn't even understand who to make the cheque out to in the first place.

On top of all that, my H told me she threw her friend under the bus and blamed her for writing the cheque out to the wrong payor.  

Just typical.

I learned something from this.  It reinforced that if I ignore those kinds of texts, it forces her to deal with it, and be uncomfortable, but deal with it.  Ignoring those texts and not "rescuing" her is ok.  So the cheque is still coming in the mail, and she still doesn't know who to pay it to.  Apparently she doesn't have the invoice any more.

[Methuen]

Zachira I don't think you were mirroring that man in the park either.  I think it's simply two people in a park who happen to have similar schedules, and you were just being friendly.

If he interprets it as stalking, that's pretty extreme.  What on earth would make someone think that?  Their own history and baggage...  I think you just got unlucky and ran into another disordered person. I'm convinced there are more disordered people than we think.

This is on him.  You can let it go...maybe try visualizations to let it go?  Don't let him transfer his problems onto you to bear.  Don't give him that.  Our problem is that we have been trained to take this on by our disordered parent.  Only we can stop ourselves from allowing that to happen.

Enjoy your walks in the park, and continue to be the beautiful friendly person you are.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

From my perspective, having a weak sense of self is often why we try to mirror/please people instead of using a healthy internal compass. In a healthy family, the children are validated and develop a coherent sense of self that is congruent with who they are in private and in public. The splitting of the personality begins in unhealthy families when the child is expected to mirror a caregiver and meet her/his needs. A split personality drastically changes how a person presents herself/himself depending on who she/he is with and the situation he/she is in. In the worst cases of abuse, the child can develop multiple personalities. A child who is sexually abused will often dissociate to tolerate the pain of the sexual abuse when it is happening and then develop a personality that supresses the sexual abuse when it is not taking place in the moment because it is not safe to disclose the abuse. This complete separation from the abuse into"I am not being abused right now." and "Now I am putting on the face that I am not being abused." can become Dissociative Identity Disorder,, having more than one personality while being in one personality being completely unaware of the other personality/other personalities.
Skip, who I believe founded this site, has often said something like this: that the ultimate solution for dealing with the disordered people in our lives is differentiation, becoming people in our own right, separate people from our disordered family members. He unfortunately does not participate much these days. I have found that he is right. My therapist was very strong in Bowen Family Systems Theory. Murray Bowen developed the concept of differentiation. One of the key things my therapist worked on with me was differentiation from my disordered family which is what has allowed me to go low contact with them and begin to form healthier relationships with myself and others.I continue to work on  having a more coherent sense of self.
We spend a lot of time here grieving how overwhelmed we are by being mistreated by our disordered family members and how to no longer be so triggered. I find it frustrating that we have to do so much work on ourselves, yet I do believe the path to being less and less triggered by how badly our disordered family members treat us, is differentiation from our disordered family members as much as that is possible. Since we did not get the support in childhood from our caregivers, I believe that becoming differentiated from our disordered family members will always be something we have to work on.
In your post, you might consider replacing the word "distinguish" with "differentiate" if that is a better fit after learning more about what differentiation is in Bowen Family Systems Theory.
What do you think?

I will read more on Bowen Family System Theory.

For me, I said it earlier but it's worth mentioning again, people pleasing and mirroring are two different things. People pleasing is doing something against my own value and boundary out of fear of not being liked, of being rejected; mirroring is done unconsciously, it's adopting the interlocutor body posture, tone of voice, and ultimately their "views and feelings" for the duration of the conversation. Sometimes, we can see ourselves doing it, and stop ourselves, but at other times, we don't and can be left with an icky sensation when the conversation ends, while we slowly revert back to ourselves.

I can see how I can change and be widely different in one context or another, but I don't feel like my inner values and boundaries change... But then, I realize that I didn't react to something I should have reacted to, or won't say something I believe... But it's not so much out of fear, it's just... The impulse of doing those things is decreased on the moment. Maybe it is people pleasing... I certainly seem to have fluid boundaries, even though I don't feel like I do.  

But it's a strong unconscious pull, and I believe it's also regular? Like ...a normal thing amongst humans. But that some people are more prone to it.

Like, put people in a group...the IQ will go down drastically... Mob thinking is a real thing that Carl Jung warned people about, and how individuation is a much needed process for everyone to prevent the "collective unconscious" from taking over one's personality... I thought I had individuated quite a bit, but like you said, and I think you are very right... It's not something that it ever done and over with... It is an ongoing process...

I just wonder if we sometimes overestimate the impact trauma has on us, and overlook biology and genetic, and how we are wired as a social animal... I brought up mirroring, questioning what kind of impact trauma would have had in this habit of mine, on my "chameleon" personality... But maybe that's just who I was, and am...

I remember often adapting, even when I was young, my own personality to make people feel better. If someone was very shy, I'd adopt their body posture, and do the extra mile to make them feel welcome, and valued. I was always more attuned to people around me...this cannot be all trauma, there is good in this overall attitude of tuning into people...mirroring them, connecting... That's also genuine interest and care. I do want people to feel seen. The problem is connecting to the wrong people, and keeping myself from connecting to them... keeping myself from feeding unsafe people...

Like you said...you didn't "cut the ties" with the man in the park, even after noticing he wasn't paying attention to you, after seeing the red flags. And I do the same, I had both my neighbors at my house on Wednesday, and realized at some point they were talking between themselves, completely uninterested in me, in my own backyard, while their children were using our trampoline... I just... Let them feel welcome, was wearing my towel up as to not make them uncomfortable...and then it finally hit me: I am in MY home. And I shifted. Stopped hiding, adopted a strong body posture, put my towel where it didn't disturb me, owned my body and my space. And they suddenly started talking to me, and trying to please ME.

I discussed it with my husband earlier... I was deeply surprised about this turn of events, but it made me realize I have more power over people than I take. Like LnL (I think?) said... Sometimes, feeling confident has to be a choice. And loneliness takes its toll on us...I do think, like you mentioned, that loneliness makes us more "flexible" with our boundaries, because we crave connection, and we will tolerate more red flags, if it means we get some sense of connection with another being...

[Notwendy]

The blame shifting is amazing isn't it?   .

Her whole family is taking care of all the business aspect of her needs- got the house sold, the move organized, settled her into assisted living, organizing her papers, - all of it. Understandable that it's a difficult situation to be in skilled nursing but there doesn't seem to be any comprehension of what everyone is doing for her.

She still owned a car, for years, even though she can't drive it. Her relatives did a lot to get it sold, got an appraisal and took the car with them as she can't leave it at her house. The problem is, they can't sell it easily because she has to sign for it and she's not mobile right now. So I told them on my next visit, I'd go with them with the POA and sign it.

So I told her I was doing that and she said "what - they haven't done this already?" Mom, they can't because you have to sign it.

Then she said "my neighbor got someone to offer to buy it months ago" (yes for a lot less than the price we got quoted)

So we sell her house and car for her and she gets the money in the bank. So to blame shift and put her feelings on someone else, she calls me up and says " I am so sad for you that your relatives have dumped this job on you to do".

? now who dumped on who here? Could it possibly be BPD mother is putting everyone out by her dysfunctional crap and that her relatives don't want this car in their driveway indefinitely?

It's puzzling her because I don't react. I don't even cry. And she tries to play on my feelings and it doesn't work. Fortunately most of the tasks around the move are completed- the house, the car, getting documents.

[TelHill]

I hope it's okay to resurrect this thread! I've read it quite a few times and relate to almost everything that was written as a daughter of a dBPD mom.   She's a waif and quiet to the outside world. Within my immediate family, she is a constant bully and is h3ll on wheels (wheelchair at this point). She shunned friendship (I think she didn't know how or was afraid).  I was neglected. I spent more time watching television as a kid than her interacting with me.  Her interactions with me were filled with resentment. I was very scared most of the time.  I preferred my own company and stayed busy with homework so she'd leave me alone.
 
I have issues making friends being a former doormat and people pleaser.   The friends I had either used me, were extremely angry people or I dropped them because they seemed too kind and normal. I was afraid of the latter because I thought they'd dump me for being defective.

I am not as much as a doormat and people pleaser as before.  I can spot big red flags and extricate myself from a weird or potentially abusive situation.  I am not sure how to slowly let people into my life to make a few acquaintances.   I also have issues trusting females as friends considering how physically and emotionally abusive my mother is/was.  I would get boyfriends or have gay male friends.  I don't want either at this point.

The whole concept is overwhelming to be honest.

My FOO and extended family are immigrants. I am one of the few who was born in the country (US) where we live.  It's relevant to me for two reasons. The first: my immediate family always noted that I was American and they were not.  I felt like I never belonged to them though I wanted to. The second: my extended family were my social circle growing up. They were embarrassing to me, am sorry to say, and they still are.   They are quite clannish and very conservative about women's roles.  They remain stuck in the 19th Century. There is a word in the English language using the name of the region and the definition is like my extended family - breaking down into small hostile groups.  My parents went through a terrible war as children and there was a horrible war there over 20 years ago.  The refugees went to other nearby countries and were not wanted in many places due to bad behavior. They remind me of my cousins. I am nothing like them.  

One of my concerns is how do you get to know people when you have nothing to do with your extended family and are low to no contact with your immediate family?  On top of that I have no friend group and I'm not working now. (I do have a small business which most of the time takes care of itself.)  It makes me quite anxious to look like the lone wolf I'm not.  I live in a large city so most people, including me, are somewhat guarded.

I attend an online book club regularly. I enjoy reading classic literature and learning about fine art. Am a library and museum type. I love hiking and spending time outdoors. I am good with math and am a nerd by profession.  I walk at least five miles a day to help with stress.   I don't like bars or like to drink alcohol or use mind altering substances. I was always responsible and never liked to party.  I'm a square and I like being like this.

I am hoping this makes sense.

Edited to add: There's alcoholism, SA perpetrated on me by a member and general inappropriate speech. 

[livednlearned]

how do you get to know people when you have nothing to do with your extended family and are low to no contact with your immediate family?  On top of that I have no friend group and I'm not working now. (I do have a small business which most of the time takes care of itself.)  It makes me quite anxious to look like the lone wolf I'm not.  I live in a large city so most people, including me, are somewhat guarded.

I have a lot of the same qualities you describe in terms of what you like/don't like. I wonder if there are board game clubs in your area? The nice thing about board games is that you can spend time with people and then, if you don't feel comfortable in that group, a new one might form. And alternately, if you find a group you like, you can opt to stick with the same people.

Another thing I did that honestly I'm a bit iffy about, although I did get a lot of out of it, was to join a therapy group for women that was facilitated by two therapists. I was seeing one of the therapists so I sort of had all the bases covered.

It was equal parts challenging and cathartic. I went because I was in a free fall from my divorce but it helped me understand things about myself and people I don't think I could get from simply hanging out with people. I don't think I developed a realistic sense of who I was to others because of my FOO and needed some help with that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I watched this video yesterday and thought it incredibly helpful :

https://youtu.be/MOzMaHLIo14

It is also relevant to this discussion.

Hopefully it helps others as well.

[TelHill]

I have a lot of the same qualities you describe in terms of what you like/don't like. I wonder if there are board game clubs in your area? The nice thing about board games is that you can spend time with people and then, if you don't feel comfortable in that group, a new one might form. And alternately, if you find a group you like, you can opt to stick with the same people.

livednlearned, This is a really good idea. I tend to think I should stick with the first group I manage to go to due to low self-esteem. There will be drama if I leave and who knows if the new group will accept me. I'll be stuck at square one.  It's a recipe for eventual self-isolation.

A therapy group sounds good as well.  If it's a good one, it'll give me some confidence.

[

I watched this video yesterday and thought it incredibly helpful :

https://youtu.be/MOzMaHLIo14

It is also relevant to this discussion.

Hopefully it helps others as well.

Riv3rW0lf, I listened to it. Thank you.

Yes, it's extremely helpful about socializing and  is the key I've been looking for.  I've been to many therapists in the last 35 years about how to make friends and they couldn't tell me. I think it comes naturally to almost everyone and is difficult to explain.

With lack of friendships being a big problem with young adults,  someone sat down and thought about how to approach the issue. Yay!