New Beginnings & Boundaries 8...

[MaroonLiquid]

So yesterday morning, my wife brought our daughter to the tournament.  We were at this thing from 7:00AM yesterday until midnight last night.  Anyway, my wife acted like the conversations on the phone from the day before never happened.   . She was nice, flirting at times, came and sat on my lap, and even invited us to lunch between one of our games.  It still boggles my mind their behavior sometimes from one moment to the next.  I guess when they are dysregulating or feeling out of control, they look to us to be even keel and in control.  Whatever triggered her from the day before and by me holding my ground, it must have subsided.  No matter how many times you go through it, it doesn't get any less weird!   

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[MaroonLiquid]

So yesterday morning, my wife brought our daughter to the tournament.  We were at this thing from 7:00AM yesterday until midnight last night.  Anyway, my wife acted like the conversations on the phone from the day before never happened.   . She was nice, flirting at times, came and sat on my lap, and even invited us to lunch between one of our games.  It still boggles my mind their behavior sometimes from one moment to the next.  I guess when they are dysregulating or feeling out of control, they look to us to be even keel and in control.  Whatever triggered her from the day before and by me holding my ground, it must have subsided.  No matter how many times you go through it, it doesn't get any less weird!   

Adding to what happened yesterday, our daughters wanted to get together and swim today.  My wife texted and asked if it was ok.  I said of course and that our daughter was welcome anytime.  She brought our daughter over and for the first time in 10 months of living here, my wife came in!  It was weird at first.  She asked about my new TV  , and was surprised she didn't say much about it.  She looked around my apartment since she had never seen it.  She had a few minutes and went out by the pool with me to watch the girls swim.  We sat out and talked and enjoyed the breeze.  After a bit she had to leave and we agreed to have dinner tonight. 

[MaroonLiquid]

So yesterday morning, my wife brought our daughter to the tournament.  We were at this thing from 7:00AM yesterday until midnight last night.  Anyway, my wife acted like the conversations on the phone from the day before never happened.   . She was nice, flirting at times, came and sat on my lap, and even invited us to lunch between one of our games.  It still boggles my mind their behavior sometimes from one moment to the next.  I guess when they are dysregulating or feeling out of control, they look to us to be even keel and in control.  Whatever triggered her from the day before and by me holding my ground, it must have subsided.  No matter how many times you go through it, it doesn't get any less weird!  

Adding to what happened yesterday, our daughters wanted to get together and swim today.  My wife texted and asked if it was ok.  I said of course and that our daughter was welcome anytime.  She brought our daughter over and for the first time in 10 months of living here, my wife came in!  It was weird at first.  She asked about my new TV  , and was surprised she didn't say much about it.  She looked around my apartment since she had never seen it.  She had a few minutes and went out by the pool with me to watch the girls swim.  We sat out and talked and enjoyed the breeze.  After a bit she had to leave and we agreed to have dinner tonight.  

    Dinner last night was great.  We laughed and had a great time as a family.  On our way back to her house, she was telling me about the "Solo-Parenting" class at church she went to for the first time earlier in the day.  She was telling me a story about one of the ladies that spoke and I validated her story and how heartbreaking it was.  I'll be honest, when I think about her going to this "class", it almost ticks me off, almost.  I know I'm not the kids biological father, but they call me dad and tell me they love me.  I feel like she is living a lie to these people and they validate those lies because they don't know any different, and to be honest, it hurts a little.  She can go to this big church here in town and have this huge support system, join the choir, and bottom line, it's all based on a lie.  It's obvious they haven't done their homework on her because do you allow someone whose life is currently in dissarray to be involved in ministry?  Please understand, I'm not jealous.  It's just hard to understand how a woman passes herself off as "single", or whatever it is she tells them (Not sure  ), and then comes home, tells me she loves me, calls me "dad" in front of the kids and we continue to be physically intimate with one another.  I ascribe to the scripture that says, "What is done in secret will always be brought into the light." and why I don't do much about it.  Kind of like us seeing that lady we both know at the shoestore about 8-9 days ago.  She is friend of both of us on Facebook so I'm sure she had questions and posted on there that she saw us together.  It was the next day she started pulling away. 

    Anyway, we went back to her house and together we folded some clothes and did the dishes.  When I started helping her fold clothes, she said, "You don't have to do that."  I responded with, "I know I don't have to, I want to." I have said this multiple times to her (we always would take and communicate while doing chores together).  While folding clothes, my television came up.  She said, "Why didn't you put that toward the washer and dryer, or taxes?"  I didn't respond and our daughter walked in and asked a question and that totally went away.  You gotta love kids!    My first thought when she said that was, "Your going to ask why I didn't put that toward taxes or the w/d, yet you've been on a cruise, another vacation, and last week spent $400 dollars on make-up and not put anything toward them either?  Seriously?"     It never ceases to amaze me the double standard in their mind sometimes.    

    Moving on, our son needed to be picked up and while she was doing the dishes, I offered to go pick our son up from work.  I got back and she asked if I wanted to watch a movie in the living room (our daughter asked if she could sleep in her bed with her last night) and I said, "Sure".  We sat together, watched a little bit of it and she fell asleep.  I woke her up a bit later and told her I needed to head home.  We hugged, I kissed her on the forehead and left.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, had a rough conversation with my wife and lost it.  I didn't fly off the handle or anything, but JADE'd, and JADE'd and JADE'd.  I found myself chasing my wife and feel ridiculous... .I feel pathetic.  My wife was trying to bait me today with the divorce.  I was doing well with it all morning.  I was standing strong and never backed down from saying I wouldn't be responsible for her 401k loan.  Several times, I didn't answer her texts right away (was in a meeting the first time and took time to think about how to answer after that) and could tell she was going through an extinction burst with a few minutes later when I didn't answer she would text with "?".  The third time I didn't answer her right away she called me and I was at lunch and called her back.  She said, "You are ignoring my texts for long periods and not answering me and we have some important things to discuss."  I said, "I'm at lunch.  I know that it is important to you to discuss these things and will call you when I get back to work.  I'm not ignoring you, just have been putting out fires this morning."  Her response was classic, "I never said you were ignoring me."     How do they not hear themselves?  She said, "Who are you at lunch with?"  I said a friend.  She said, "Who?"  I was thinking to myself, "What the heck does it matter?", but responded with their name (A guy I always go to lunch with).  She had this tone and said, "Well, when you get back, and if you aren't putting out any fires and if you have time, call me."  I said, "I will."

    I got back to work and called her from my car.  She said she wanted to discuss the rest of the items to get them resolved.  I said, "Can I ask you a question?"  She said, "Sure."  I said, "Why are you now in such a hurry to get a divorce?"     Can't believe I went there.  She was trying to trigger me all day and I bit.  She said, "Why should I do something different?  We lead separate lives, you don't come to my kids things, I don't go to your kids things and all you think about is yourself."  I said, "We lead separate lives because you chose that, I don't go to the kids things because you don't invite me, and I invite you to my kids things and you decide at the last minute to not show up, and of course I think of myself first now.  Since you got a house behind my back and I then had to live on my own, if I don't who will?"  She said, "I moved out because you pushed me against a wall."  I said, "You know as well as I do that I did that to keep you from continuing to punch me."  She said, "I was defending myself."  I said, "Whatever!"  She said, "I have asked for counseling for years, and you are untrustworthy by keeping the taxes from me... ."  I interrupted and said, "But yet, when I make the appointments, you didn't show up."  She said, ":)id you?"  I said, "I sure did and had to pay the co-pay on them also.  As far as the taxes, we were both aware of where we stood, but now that can be a convenient excuse for you can't it?"  She said, "So if I'm abusive and I won't show up to counseling appointments, why do you want to stay married to me?  I'm obviously a horrible person!"  I responded, "No, you're a good person and I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself.  I love you and want to be here for you and the kids.  I've always felt that way and that has not changed."  She said, "No, I'm a paycheck and someone you can have sex with.  (Projecting much?)  For years I was the only one that was here for you and loved you and was a good wife to you.  Well, not once in a year have you asked me what you could do to make our marriage work."  I said, "Ok.  What can I do to make our marriage work?"     Can't believe I went here either!  I feel disgusted.  She said, "Nothing, it's over!"  I said, "You know what?  When you separated from me, you told me you just needed some time to get things straight so that we could work on our marriage.  (I started crying here) That was obviously a lie.  You never intended to get back with me.  You lied."  She said, ":)on't tell me what I did or didn't do.  You don't know how I felt... ."  I said, "No, I know by your actions.  My actions have been a man who wanted to work things out with his wife and bent over backwards at times to be there for her.  You just don't like that I'm not a pushover anymore."  She said, "Look, I just wanted to see if we can work this out amicably, and do what is best for our kids and be friends.  But since we can't, we will have to go to mediation.  Best of luck to you ML."  She then hung up on me.  

    I realized I walked into a trap.  I'm so tired of the up and down.  I'm not even mad.  I don't know where her problem is coming from and don't really care.  I'm tired of the one that's being dumped on, and on some level, I guess I'm allowing it... .I don't know.  Not beating myself up, and actually forgiving myself for taking a step back today (again!).  I am proud of myself for saying I will not be responsible for her loan.  I'm not backing down and it drives her nuts I think.  SHe was even trying to lay it on thick about how my ex wife took me to the cleaners in our divorce.  Another thing, I see all these threads pop up of their loved ones getting itno therapy and my wife won't go anywhere near it.  It's frustrating as hell!  It's almost like she wants to be mentally ill. The truth is she probably thinks everyone else is mentally ill.  Thoughts?

[formflier]

 

Hang tough! 

Tonight is a new night... .tomorrow a new day.

 

I've bitten on a few things lately that I shouldn't... .didn't control myself very well.  It happens.

We're human.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Hang tough! 

Tonight is a new night... .tomorrow a new day.

 

I've bitten on a few things lately that I shouldn't... .didn't control myself very well.  It happens.

We're human.

FF

I am definitely hanging tough and at times, I don't know how I survived this long!  It still seems to me she is trying to get me to bend by talking about the divorce.  It just gets old at times... .I have a really difficult time with the part of her mental illness that keeps her in turmoil and unhappy to the point of throwing her life away.  it is very sad... .Last night, she was complaining about our daughter's friend's mom who is getting remarried and ripped her to shreds because the guy she is marrying is telling her daughter that she has to give up her dog because it has bladder problems and also she ahs to change schools two years before graduation.  She basically said, "I would tell him that he would have to wait until my daughter left for college before I would marry him.  WTH would give him the right to tell my daughter she can't keep her dog and have to switch schools?"  I thought to myself, "The man whose house they are moving into and I applaud her for being a submissive and supportive wife!"     I obviously kept my mouth shut.  I validated how hard it would be on the daughter to give up the dog, but I'm not going to bash the mom or the step-dad for that.  That right there tells me it is always about control with my wife.  She can't stand not being in control.

[Grey Kitty]

  Sorry you got such a triggering fight about divorce/money/etc.

May I suggest a boundary to enforce next time your wife tries to bait you? Come up with your party line, put it in your words... .and state it once, and then hang up to get out of a circular argument.

1. Having separate finances from you is working better for me. I'm will keep my finances independent of yours.

2. I love you and enjoy your company.

3. I love (her kids, by name) and care for them, and want to be involved in raising them. My kids love you want to spend time with you and your kids.

Just have these sort of statements ready. So if she asks you why you bought a TV instead of paying for the W/D, you can say "I'm not responsible for the w/d. I chose to spend my money on a TV." (Conversation ended)

You don't have to explain WHY (as in JADE all over the place), simply state that it isn't your responsibility, and you chose otherwise.

[MaroonLiquid]

 Sorry you got such a triggering fight about divorce/money/etc.

Thank you.  I'm still in awe at times how they refuse to take any responsibility.  NONE!  I still have trouble with the black one minute and white the next.  She can't stand when I stand up for myself.

May I suggest a boundary to enforce next time your wife tries to bait you? Come up with your party line, put it in your words... .and state it once, and then hang up to get out of a circular argument.

1. Having separate finances from you is working better for me. I'm will keep my finances independent of yours.

2. I love you and enjoy your company.

3. I love (her kids, by name) and care for them, and want to be involved in raising them. My kids love you want to spend time with you and your kids.

Just have these sort of statements ready. So if she asks you why you bought a TV instead of paying for the W/D, you can say "I'm not responsible for the w/d. I chose to spend my money on a TV." (Conversation ended)

You don't have to explain WHY (as in JADE all over the place), simply state that it isn't your responsibility, and you chose otherwise.

I do tell her those things, I just get pulled into a circular argument even though I know I'm in it and it is so hard to stop.  The "divorce" talk is triggering for me as I am a good husband/father.  I feel like it was another extinction burst because I won't back down and take responsibility.  When she said, "You have not once in a year asked what you could do to work on our marriage... .", truthfully, I almost couldn't handle that one... .She's done everything in the book to make sure repairing didn't happen... .

[MaroonLiquid]

Another thing I really struggle with is how I go from being "dad" one day to a divorce in the next breath at times.  It boggles my mind how they decipher that code into something that makes sense... .last night at the girls first all star practice, my wife and I never spoke.  She actively ignored me and I acted like she didn't exist or that I didn't see her.  It worked for me. 

[formflier]

into something that makes sense... .

Maybe some RA needed... .it will not make sense.

What makes more sense is to look at longer term patterns... .trying to make a single event or conversation "make sense"... .probably not a good plan.

FF

[KateCat]

Maroon, I think one of Grey Kitty's suggested "statements to have ready" at all times is one that you might get great benefit from:

3. I love (her kids, by name) and care for them, and want to be involved in raising them. My kids love you want to spend time with you and your kids.

Now that financial issues are ebbing as a flashpoint in your relationship with your (STBX?) wife, the battleground seems to shift to the children and your love for them and your strong motivation to be a family that includes all children hers and yours. In an unhealthy game like this one, this is your "weakness." (In normal circumstances, of course, it is a strength, a value, a virtue.)

What if you step away from battling this issue too? I mean, exactly as GC has proposed above. If you do an experiment and decide to call her children only by their names, rather than appearing to hold any ownership over them.

It's tragic that your wife cannot seem to see the real you and the genuine nature of your love for both her and her kids. But there it is, I think. She seems to feel some threat from you, still.

[KateCat]

I just noticed something I'd missed or glossed over in reading your posts:

She said, "I moved out because you pushed me against a wall."  I said, "You know as well as I do that I did that to keep you from continuing to punch me."  

There's a lot going on here that's out of your control, and you might need to be really careful for your own safety at this time.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon, I think one of Grey Kitty's suggested "statements to have ready" at all times is one that you might get great benefit from:

3. I love (her kids, by name) and care for them, and want to be involved in raising them. My kids love you want to spend time with you and your kids.

I agree with his assessment here.

Now that financial issues are ebbing as a flashpoint in your relationship with your (STBX?) wife, the battleground seems to shift to the children and your love for them and your strong motivation to be a family that includes all children hers and yours. In an unhealthy game like this one, this is your "weakness." (In normal circumstances, of course, it is a strength, a value, a virtue.)

What if you step away from battling this issue too? I mean, exactly as GC has proposed above. If you do an experiment and decide to call her children only by their names, rather than appearing to hold any ownership over them.

It's tragic that your wife cannot seem to see the real you and the genuine nature of your love for both her and her kids. But there it is, I think. She seems to feel some threat from you, still.

It's extremely sad and it breaks my heart in two.  I love her unconditionally.  it's sad that she can't receive it or doesn't understand it.

I just noticed something I'd missed or glossed over in reading your posts:

She said, "I moved out because you pushed me against a wall."  I said, "You know as well as I do that I did that to keep you from continuing to punch me."  

There's a lot going on here that's out of your control, and you might need to be really careful for your own safety at this time.

Explan what you mean here... .

My wife just texted me (after not speaking since the deal late yesterday) and is trying to bait me again with divorce and decree talk.  Good God... ... ..Can she give it a rest already?  I haven't reponded... .I feel very triggered right now and just sitting here with it.  I hate this feeling... .

[formflier]

 

Double up your efforts to not take the bait... .!



FF

[KateCat]

I'm worried that whatever is going on with your wife might be coming to a climax of some kind. That anything you do now can be misinterpreted as aggression or a plot of some sort. And, if somewhere in her mind, you are already guilty of domestic violence against her, then if you two are alone together as a couple again amidst all of this tension, something could snap in her and she could have you arrested. . . . I mean just out of a pure mental meltdown (whether one might call it "dissociation" or "psychotic episode" or something else.)

Hope I'm wrong, but you are so committed to a family relationship with her that you do not yet want to step back and take real distance, and so I fear something worse yet could still happen to you. Especially if she feels you are invading her space in some way. Especially just now.

A surprising thing one can learn from this forum is that men who are beaten by their wives are at increased risk of arrest for domestic violence.

ADDED: This is my long-winded version of saying "double your efforts to not take the bait."  

[OffRoad]

I agree. Double your efforts not to take the bait. Keep a recorder on you at all times (Yes, I am paranoid, but this has saved my hash a few times in various circumstances). Talk to her only if absolutely necessary. It's up to you, of course, but I wouldn't get into any divorce or decree talks. I'd only do it in front of lawyers or a mediator at this point.

You need to find some way to detach with love to help keep you from being triggered.

I don't know how old your wife is, but she could be heading into some kind of mid life crisis. If she is, NOTHING you can do will help.

[MaroonLiquid]

Double up your efforts to not take the bait... .!



FF

I'm worried that whatever is going on with your wife might be coming to a climax of some kind. That anything you do now can be misinterpreted as aggression or a plot of some sort. And, if somewhere in her mind, you are already guilty of domestic violence against her, then if you two are alone together as a couple again amidst all of this tension, something could snap in her and she could have you arrested. . . . I mean just out of a pure mental meltdown (whether one might call it "dissociation" or "psychotic episode" or something else.)

Hope I'm wrong, but you are so committed to a family relationship with her that you do not yet want to step back and take real distance, and so I fear something worse yet could still happen to you. Especially if she feels you are invading her space in some way. Especially just now.

ADDED: This is my long-winded version of saying "double your efforts to not take the bait."  

I'm trying.  I just want to lash out.  I hate that she keeps doing this.  I didn't speak to her last night at softball because I didn't want any conflict.  This feeling of being triggered, and a feeling of "Is this even worth it/working" sucks!  I'm just trying to do the right thing and I feel like it's making it worse at times... .Or at least it seems that way.  And if I don't answer, I feel guilty.  Her text was basically about "finalizing the decree" and "dropping the 401k deal also"... .    ... .I want to respond and say, "Half of the crap you have in your house belongs to me because you basically have control of everything."  Just trying to let it sit for now.  She knows I will never agree to it the way it is... .I'm pretty angry and hurt right now and I can't figure out why.  I wasn't this way yesterday until during the phone call.

I agree. Double your efforts not to take the bait. Keep a recorder on you at all times (Yes, I am paranoid, but this has saved my hash a few times in various circumstances). Talk to her only if absolutely necessary. It's up to you, of course, but I wouldn't get into any divorce or decree talks. I'd only do it in front of lawyers or a mediator at this point.

You need to find some way to detach with love to help keep you from being triggered.

I don't know how old your wife is, but she could be heading into some kind of mid life crisis. If she is, NOTHING you can do will help.

I have already thought of this.  She is 49 and I just turned 38 about a week ago when my wife was out of town and I was keeping the kids... .She is supposed to take me out for my birthday this weekend... .... .That was before all this blew up... .

[formflier]

 

Do you have a recorder app on your phone?

I'm assuming that you keep your phone locked... .correct?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Do you have a recorder app on your phone?

I'm assuming that you keep your phone locked... .correct?

FF

Yes, I do on both counts... .What do you think is going on?

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm worried that whatever is going on with your wife might be coming to a climax of some kind. That anything you do now can be misinterpreted as aggression or a plot of some sort.

I have believed this is the case for a while now... .

And, if somewhere in her mind, you are already guilty of domestic violence against her,

She uses this as a defense mechanism to not have to confront her own demons in this area, but she probably believes I did in some twisted BPD way.  It absolves her of any responsibility.

then if you two are alone together as a couple again amidst all of this tension, something could snap in her and she could have you arrested. . . . I mean just out of a pure mental meltdown (whether one might call it "dissociation" or "psychotic episode" or something else.)

Hope I'm wrong, but you are so committed to a family relationship with her that you do not yet want to step back and take real distance, and so I fear something worse yet could still happen to you. Especially if she feels you are invading her space in some way. Especially just now.

A surprising thing one can learn from this forum is that men who are beaten by their wives are at increased risk of arrest for domestic violence.

ADDED: This is my long-winded version of saying "double your efforts to not take the bait."  

I can see your point here... .She has threatened to call the cops several times over the years... .

[Grey Kitty]

My "party line" statements had a recommended usage model, which perhaps I didn't make clear:

If she brings up finance/divorce/other crap, and projects crap onto you. (you don't see her kids events... .because she doesn't tell you, and she leaves that out.)... .here is the program:

Tell your truth. ONCE. Then stop talking about it. Hang up or go home if you have to; you probably will at first. (That is how you don't take the bait!)

Your goal is NOT to convince her of anything... .other than that you won't get into an argument over it with her, and that you don't buy her stated positions. If you try to convince her any of these things... .you lose... .badly.

The more consistent you are, the sooner she will give up on picking these fights with you--she will realize that it is the same as hanging up on you when she turns this into a fight, and it doesn't get her anything she wants.

[OffRoad]

What Grey Kitty says^^^ State your position once and only once. (This does not apply if she is already off the rails. There is no point in stating your opinion at all if that happens.)

Do NOT allow yourself to get sidelined onto another topic. This is the hardest thing to do. In the heat of the moment, you don't notice they just shifted gears because you get busy defending yourself. They KNOW this. The best thing you can do is just detach yourself from  what they say. If you can pretend they are speaking about some third party, not you, then you can weigh the validity of what they are saying and respond accordingly.  Basically, don't take it personally. It feels personal, but it really isn't. It's about them and their problems, not you. You have to decide what is best for you, and if you don't want to talk divorce with her, don't. Your life, your choice.