I have given up hope, and need to find a way to move on

[frusdad]

Hey All,

I'm sad to be posting here to be honest, but I think my marriage is going to have to end.  I am feeling very cornered and alone and was hoping to be able to find a place to talk.

I have been married for 11 years and over the past I'd say 3 years I started to think there was something really wrong.  In the past year things have really started to quickly decline to the point I just am no longer equipped to deal with it any longer.

My wife and I have 2 awesome kids, and I am finding they are starting to show signs of depression and anxiety because of my wife's giant mood swings.  My 13 year old son has become very withdrawn and his self esteem is very low.  My daughter is always trying everything she can to please my wife, but it's impossible to do all the time. 

I also have been suffering from depression and anxiety.  I have had this most of my life, but up until recently I have been able to recognize it and manage it.  I also have a tendency to internalize everything and kind of shut down.  This puts me in a state that I literally can't handle the stress of someone with BPD at times -- I'm not emotionally equipped to deal with my wife when she comes after me when she's in a bad mood.  I am super conflict averse so I either become extremely defensive, or I just apologize and do whatever she says (even if I know she's wrong)...I actually may become defensive but take the blame in the end every time as I know she never will and I just can't fight with her all the time. I also feel I'm failing my kids by not standing up to her when she targets them (usually my son).  Actually, I don't feel, I know I am and it's really grating on me more and more.

My wife refuses to accept any responsibility for anything she does and often places blame on me and sometimes my son.  She has a male friend whom she sends texts to on a regular basis and (stupid me) I let her go visit him last week. 

While she was gone the kids and I made a point of tidying up the house for her and got her flowers for when she came home.  I heard her come in at like 2am and I could hear banging around.  I realized she was cleaning more stuff up but thought I missed something, and actually kind of expected that so I just went to sleep.  I knew she would try to find a flaw in everything I tried to do as that is what she normally does and I was prepared for that. 

I got up and the morning and noticed she likely hadn't slept (or at least not much) and was acting kind of strange (very high energy, but slurring her words because she was clearly exhausted).  Anyways, I went to work and came back and she had torn the whole house apart to do an intense cleaning.  She was very on edge and intense trying to force my son to clear up his room.  She was getting angry with him as his room was a bit of a mess (that was true, he had just tossed things in his closet).  I could feel her anger and intensity building at this point.

Keep in mind before she left, she had literally not cleaned up anything.  She often leaves piles of things lying around the house that builds clutter (not garbage, but like bags of books or clothes lying in a corner) and never touches it.  If I try to move it she'll get angry and say I didn't do it porperly.

Anyways, I asked her why she decided to do this now and she wouldn't really answer.  I was getting a bit frustrated as she seemed completely exhausted and I had spend hours trying to tidy the house up only to have her come and basically tear it apart.  She made some backhanded comments; for example, 'there is more to cleaning a house than wiping some counters and cleaning the floor.' 

She started to tear the fridge apart and I had said I already went through it and cleaned it.  I missed some things unfortunately, and that is on me, and she started to challenge that I even did anything then started to accuse me of lying. 

At this point I could see things were about to go downhill.  She then got really angry and said I was the one getting angry with her about the fridge.  I didn't actually get angry, I just insisted I did clean the fridge.  She often has this perception that I get angry with her even though it's  the opposite.  She angers very quickly if she doesn't like what I'm saying.  She then will start to gaslight me and tell me I just can't remember what I said and my memory is horrible.  She tries to convince me of this by asking me very specific questions about something and snapping back at me if I can't remember instantly.  In her mind, that proves that I can't remember.  She is always doing this trick.

The she got mad because she said it was none of my business why she was cleaning the house.  She also blurted out that if the house wasn't cleaned up she was going to leave as she couldn't live like this anymore.  Keep in mind, most of the clutter comes from her.  I am super careful about leaving anything around as I know she'll call me on it when she gets in a bad frame of mind.  She always finds something though, regardless and uses that to say I'm the reason (or the kids) are the reason there is a mess. 

At this point she really started to go off (and all over the place), she got mad because she didn't feel I gave the kids enough vegetables when she was gone.  I had given them pizza the first night, burgers and salad one night, chicken and rice with pineapple another night (which I didn't mention at the time), and I made spaghetti with meat sauce and salad the final night.  Her issue was the salad was iceberg lettuce and that didn't have any nutritional value and was no good.  She got very angry at me for not giving them enough vegetables even when I explained what I had given her.  On the other side of the coin, when she was on the other end of a mood swing and I was a way on business my daughter still talks about the time they had ice cream for supper.  She often orders out when i am away as well.

Anyways, a little while later she was getting angry again about me asking her why the house needed to be so urgently cleaned.  She told me her feelings and emotions were none of my business. It was a strange answer. I honestly at this point was getting a bit paranoid about this guy she went to visit.  If I'm totally honest, I don't think there is anything going on there -- but her weird behaviour as soon as she got back and the fact I was leaving for business for the remainder of the week made me think she was embarrassed about the mess she made in the house and was trying to hide it so he could come over.  I will be honest and say because of the manipulation/lies over the past few years from her, i have become extremely paranoid and mistrustful of her...but I believe I am somewhat justified to have that thought in this case as I've seen her do similar things before when people were coming over...and she is close friends with this person whom she just visited and suddenly went into an episode.

Anyways, by this point she was screaming at me (I had not yet said anything about the guy) and I was still trying figure out exactly why we were in such a huge fight over this.  She was completely freaking out and asking me to leave the house so in the interest of conflict resolution I did.   I texted my kids via her phone last night to say goodnight and she started to lay into me and told me I had ruined her life.  She had given up a career (when I met her she was on long term disability and had been for a while.  It took me years to convince her to get off of it.  She had no career and had no job even), school (she was not in school when I met her), her health (maybe the kids), future security (not sure what that is), her mental health (she was on long term disability for mental health issues, but lied about that for a long time to me and said it was chronic pain), and her friends (I never stop her from seeing her friends, I let her go visit some dude to try to make her feel better and give her some time for x sakes -- clearly I'm not trying to control that).  Can I also add here that her target used to be her mother (who is also very mentally ill, but in a different way) -- but her family caught her being verbally abusive to her and they all cut her totally out of their lives.  Her parents are divorced, but nobody on either side has any contact with her at all as far as I know.  She also often says my parents don't deserve to see my kids as they haven't made any effort, and I'm the one with zero friends.  I get to anxious leaving the house that she is going to get angry with me for something if I'm out just for fun.  For work, it's ok as she knows I need to make money.

Anyways, circling back to the story. Yesterday I was just trying to find a way out of this fight as she was becoming more and more oppressive telling me she wasn't sure she'd be able to forgive me and I had no right to treat her like this.  Basically, she started to vilify me.  She will also go around to all her friends (which are quite a few even though she says she has none) and try to spin a story to make her look like a victim.  She will make me out to be a total monster (which she actually did to her ex, but at the time I wasn't familiar with BPD so thought she was telling the truth). She is very good at manipulating people (I actually think she believes what she is saying totally and cannot see that she might be part of the problem at all -- that is why she is believable).  This scares me to death as it's just not true and she is making me look like I'm a horrible person when in fact i'm the one who has no friends, and lives in a constant state of anxiety. Honestly, I get a little desperate (which I shouldn't do) and try to get her to forgive me (which I shouldn't do). 

The other thing I'd point out here is it was probably something she could do to her ex, but my son is a teenager and fully aware of her real personality.  I just would never want to put him in a position to have to say something about it to someone.  I actually believe at some point he will on his own though, but it won't be me that pushes him there.  I am thankful I have them, or I'd think I was going totally insane.

All that said, I ended up telling her the reason I was asking her about this and getting upset was I was getting insecure about the male friend and I was starting to think she was coming over. She immediately latched on to this and basically called me a horrible person and this guy was such a nice guy that was always supporting her and he'd continue to be her friend no matter what.  She told me to leave her alone and that I broke her by making her so upset and the last year of her life was a waste (we got into a similar huge fight last year and I threatened to leave her, but didn't and we had really been working hard on things this year).  I actually don't think me being uncomfortable with this guys is really that unreasonable.  I don't know him, she was acting strangely after visiting him, and she is a pathological liar so I have no idea what is actually going on. 

Do I think something actually is happening -- probably not sexually, but emotionally I think he is getting the best version of her.  I know that version of her as I used to get it.  She is doing fun things like going hiking and on road trips with him, and not doing any of that with me...or making it seem like a chore if she does.  She won't go on a trip with just me, or even out to supper or anything.  So yeah, I'm insecure and jealous and I think she is the one doing something wrong.  I think it was stupid of me to let her go, but I think she would have went anyways to be honest.

But anyways, I ended up apologizing for being insecure and she just exploded on me and is now probably going to use this against me in some capacity by making me feel really guilty and trying to make it up to her.  The problem is, I'm over it.  I'm ready to go home pack my PLEASE READ and leave her.  I think she is wrong and I don't think she is going to admit it, but I think I am justified and if she can't at least accept my apology and move on  rather than using this against me I can't do it.

I apologize that this post is a bit ranty and all over the place; there is a lot going on that I can discuss as well but I needed to get this off of my chest before I can even become to deconstruct everything else that has happened over the last 3 years.

Some important things to note to let you know I'm at least somewhat sane:

1. She has been physically abusive towards me in the past, but I did not report it
2. She has done things like put drugs in my food, but again I didn't report it
3. I went to therapy for depression and the therapist advised that my wife was the cause of my extreme depression and elevated anxiety.  They couldn't diagnose her directly as she wasn't there, but based on what I said they felt she was BDP and on the severe side.  that was actually the first time I ever heard of this illness.

I am not someone you would expect by looking at to be an abuse victim, but I would consider myself a bit of a pushover if someone has a strong personality.  I am very very conflict averse and often will do whatever I can to avoid it including compromising myself.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[AskingWhy]

frusdad, I am so sorry you are feeling this way.  

Welcome to the forum.

Don't apologise for the rant and long post.  It's important to let members know your situation.

Yes, being married to a pwBPD can cause depression and anxiety.  That is why they call it "walking on eggshells."  If you already have these conditions, a BPD spouse can make it worse.  You also need to be concerned about your children who might need therapy.

Is your W seeing a therapist at time time and are you currently in therapy?  Sometimes clutter can be a sign of an anxiety disorder as well as BPD.

Physical abuse and tampering with food is a red flag that something is terribly wrong, and your W needs help.  

You know some of your own issues (self esteem, etc.) but you need to understand your W's behavior is not your fault.

[frusdad]

Thanks for the fast reply, it helps. 

I think one of my main issues is she refuses to see a therapist.  I tried to get her to go with me last year as a couple but she would not.  She says therapists can't help her and she's done everything she can do.  She also firmly believes I am the one who needs therapy, not her.

I am not in therapy as at the time the therapist was insisting I leave her for the sake of my kids.  I basically chickened out to be honest and didn't go back.  At the time, I was desperately trying to save our marriage.  As of today, I don't think I can any longer.

[AskingWhy]

Thanks for the fast reply, it helps.  

I think one of my main issues is she refuses to see a therapist.  I tried to get her to go with me last year as a couple but she would not.  She says therapists can't help her and she's done everything she can do.  She also firmly believes I am the one who needs therapy, not her.

Thank you for the reply.  I know your pain as I have been married for over 20 years to a uBPD H.  A few years ago, it dawned on me that his anger, frequent divorce threats, raging, punching holes in the wall, breaking my property, emotional blackmail and triangulation with his children (who are now adults), were not normal.  I read books and online and it occurred to me that my H is uBPD.   He had many of the diagnostic criteria.

People with PDs, as you may know, do not accept "interpretation" (assessment of a therapist) because they don't see they have a problem. Moreover, they use blaming, which is a cognitive distortion.  

A word of caution on couples therapy when one partner is abused.  Domestic violence counselors do not recommend couples therapists because the therapist will usually place the blame for marital problems on both partners.  Unless the T knows your W is a pwBPD, you will not benefit from couples therapy.

Years ago, I went to a marriage counselor with my H.  BPDs are chameleons and actors, and my H had the T eating out of his hand in the first three sessions.  He charmed her, saying he could not understand why I was so upset and unhappy.  (Like you, I suffer from anxiety and depression from my marriage.)  The T, who clearly fell for my H's act, made "me" out to be the bad guy.  One session, where I wept and shouted my upset and pain (which other counselors would have noted and addressed), the T stood up, scolded me, shouted at me and told me, "If you don't stop shouting, you are going to lose this man who loves you!"  So much for the benefit of that therepist.

Again, go carefully in choosing a T.  Make sure the T knows your W is likely BPD.

You are examining your marriage and the pros and cons of staying and leaving.  Only you can decide.  Hopefully you can find some answers here.  If you have not done so, please read Lundy Bancroft's book, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?: A Guide to Knowing if Your Relationship Can--and Should--be Saved."  You can easily buy this online as a book or in e-format to download on phone or tablet.  Do not let your W know you are reading it.  It is for your eyes alone.  Bancroft is an expert on domestic violence.

I wish you well.  Be strong.  Knowing your partner is likely BPD, you begin to see the parts of the puzzle fit together, and knowledge is power.      

[frusdad]

Thank you for the reply.  I know your pain as I have been married for over 20 years to a uBPD H.  A few years ago, it dawned on me that his anger, frequent divorce threats, raging, punching holes in the wall, breaking my property, emotional blackmail and triangulation with his children (who are now adults), were not normal.  I read books and online and it occurred to me that my H is uBPD.   He had many of the diagnostic criteria.

People with PDs, as you may know, do not accept "interpretation" (assessment of a therapist) because they don't see they have a problem. Moreover, they use blaming, which is a cognitive distortion.   



A word of caution on couples therapy when one partner is abused.  Domestic violence counselors do not recommend couples therapists because the therapist will usually place the blame for marital problems on both partners.  Unless the T knows your W is a pwBPD, you will not benefit from couples therapy.

Years ago, I went to a marriage counselor with my H.  BPDs are chameleons and actors, and my H had the T eating out of his hand in the first three sessions.  He charmed her, saying he could not understand why I was so upset and unhappy.  (Like you, I suffer from anxiety and depression from my marriage.)  The T, who clearly fell for my H's act, made "me" out to be the bad guy.  One session, where I wept and shouted my upset and pain (which other counselors would have noted and addressed), the T stood up, scolded me, shouted at me and told me, "If you don't stop shouting, you are going to lose this man who loves you!"  So much for the benefit of that therepist.

Again, go carefully in choosing a T.  Make sure the T knows your W is likely BPD.

You are examining your marriage and the pros and cons of staying and leaving.  Only you can decide.  Hopefully you can find some answers here.  If you have not done so, please read Lundy Bancroft's book, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?: A Guide to Knowing if Your Relationship Can--and Should--be Saved."  You can easily buy this online as a book or in e-format to download on phone or tablet.  Do not let your W know you are reading it.  It is for your eyes alone.  Bancroft is an expert on domestic violence.

I wish you well.  Be strong.  Knowing your partner is likely BPD, you begin to see the parts of the puzzle fit together, and knowledge is power.       

Thank you.  Yes, my fear is the acting.  She is very very good at turning on the charm when she needs to.  To folks outside the home she makes a real effort to keep up appearances.  She slips up occasionally, but most people don't expect she would be the same as she is behind closed doors. I have noticed lately that she does slip up more often than she used to.

As for the T, the one I was seeing made the potential diagnosis herself -- I honestly did not know anything about BDP before the therapist told me about it and that my wife likely had it.  She strongly felt I should leave given the food, phsyisal harm, and risks to my kids.   At that time, I truly thought my wife would 'come around' but I know now that is a mistake.  She will never admit she needs help or admit she even has any problem so it's hopeless.  I do worry a lot about her manipulating people during a divorce.  She will say and do anything she thinks she needs to for self preservation in my mind.  Ie; she is going to try hard to take my kids away at least...possibly try to hurt me financially as well if she can...I think at this point this is the main reason I'm scared to leave.  That, and I really don't want my kids to be without me to at least provide some form of sanity for them.  I can't in good conscious leave them with her while she will be that stressed out.

[frusdad]

Just a note on the couple's counseling.  I think that was a ruse my therapist wanted to use in order to confront my wife.  This was another reason I ran away.  My wife would have been enraged by that (even though there was no chance she was going to go anyways).

[AskingWhy]

Just a note on the couple's counseling.  I think that was a ruse my therapist wanted to use in order to confront my wife.  This was another reason I ran away.  My wife would have been enraged by that (even though there was no chance she was going to go anyways).

FD, if you are considering divorce, make sure you read, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

The author, Bill Eddy, is both a social worker as well as a lawyer.  His book is a must for divorcing a person who is BPD or NPD.  As you know, BPDs can lie, put on acts of "normal" behaviour (again, they are chameleons), and trick judges and lawyers, convincing them you are the one at fault.  You might also be accused of abusing your children.

It's good you have a T who knows the truth.

Be well.  

[frusdad]

Thanks, all of this is really making me remember why I don't just leave.  I just feel like I can never get away or my life is going to be completely ruined.  I texted days prior to posting here apologizing for being insecure about the behaviour she was showing, and that I didn't clean the house enough.  I now know that she can easily use that to try to manipulate the courts...I'm essentially admitting guilt even though the only reason I'm doing it is to try to get her to stop.  I actually believe i have nothing to apologize for, but I know on the other hand she will never admit any guilt or show any empathy to me at all so I can either keep fighting, or try to get over it.  I will read the book, but I honestly don't know where to go from here.  I am heading back from business this afternoon and I'm dreading going home as I know the first thing she is going to do is start to lay into me again...

[frusdad]

Made it home.  Was not sure what to expect, but she had just cleaned the house and everything was is it was when I left.  I had thought for sure she would either scream at me when I came in the door, or I would have found my stuff packed.  I do not believe she wants to separate, but instead wants to gain control of me.  She knows she will lose the house (i would force a sale if we split up, or I would make her take over the mortgage and bills which she could never afford even with support payments), and there is a risk that if someone asks my kids too many questions she could be discovered.

I didn't get off scott free, she gave me plenty of dirty looks and was putting on her kind mother act for my kids letting my son play video games and telling him he could have cookies (she usually screams at him about the video games).  The best part of her being very mad at me is she stops focusing any anger on them. I then went to the bathroom and she followed me up to our room (where the bathroom is) and said 'what I was doing here'.  It felt more like a statement than a question so I said I had nowhere else to go.  She said something like, 'that's it?' and I said it sounded to me like she was saying she didn't want me here, not really asking me.  She said she didn't want me there, but didn't ask me to leave so that was confusing. She then said she had to go to the chiropractor earlier in the week because she was crying so hard she threw her back out.  She said I hurt her not only emotionally, but physically as well...but I didn't touch her or her back.  I guess when she was having a crying fit she threw it out maybe?  That statement is typical though -- trying to twist something saying I physically hurt her when I did nothing even close to that.  She did it to herself by flying into a rage and then into a crying fit likely. Or it's just a lie, and her back was sore from something else.  Impossible to say.  After that she just went out to the store with my daughter, my car was in the way so I asked if I should move it and she just gave me a dirty look.  I moved it and then she went out.  She did leave my son here with me which was odd; normally she'll take them out and give them treats and takeout food and leave me home alone.

I am still not sure what to expect.  It's possible, but very unlikely, she'll give me the silent treatment for the rest of today...but it's also possible (and much more likely) that she is waiting to lay into me until later tonight.  I have been looking up places to stay in the meantime -- I will also stash a go bag in case things go south so I can get away quickly if things get bad. Wish me luck! Also, saw a copy of that book at the bookstore.  Was going to buy it on amazon but became worried about her seeing my order history.  I can pay cash at the book store and will do.  I read the preview chapters on the amazon website and it looks useful so thanks for that.

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry you’re dealing with such a difficult partner. Having a go bag is a great plan. Whether you choose to stay in this marriage or not, I’m going to relocate your post to the Bettering board. There you will learn strategies to difuse conflict and to keep things calmer. Being in a relationship with a partner who has BPD is a challenge, but it certainly is possible to make things better.

Best, Cat

[frusdad]

Thanks, having a difficult time still. I think my prediction was pretty close, but she is no longer really angry.  She yelled at me for a few mins the first night I was back and said she wasn't sure if she could me or give up...something along those lines.

She has now started to feel very sorry for herself; she's been taking quite a bit of time to herself and continuing to give me dirty looks.  When she engages with me, I try to use some of the methods I have seen on this site to keep her from raging. It has been working so far, but I saw she had written a list of demands that she left out by accident.  It said things like 'I need to not argue when she says to do something a certain way, that is the better way so I should do it and I should accept that'  and 'if you can't provide the emotional support i need, you have to allow me to seek companionship elsewhere'. 'The house can't be cluttered as it's stressing me out more (reminder: the clutter mainly comes from her)' 'I can't increase my meds just to be with you'. 'you can't interrupt me when I'm talking as you aren't seeing the whole point'.  I do interrupt often, and this has carried over into other areas.  It's actually a struggle for me because of this relationship; but it comes from the fact that she will literally talk/berate me for 30 mins straight without allowing me to get a word in unless I do. This comes from me cleaning or trying to help with laundry or something because she says nobody ever helps her.  I will help, and she will minimize what I did by finding some flaw in it.  Maybe I fold a shirt incorrectly, or I missed a small spot on the counter when I cleaned the kitchen. 

I did cave and apologize for being jealous, but never admitted she was behaving rationally.  In her view she was in a great mood when she got home and I tore her down.  This simply isn't true, she was a mess.  She even admitted she hadn't slept and was exhausted and stressed out.  Ie; she admitted she was behaving irrationally (or at least not her full self) at the time, but now her perception of the events has changed to one that favors her.

As I am more aware, I am also noticing how good she is at acting.  She never texts or leaves messages that are negative.  She only screams and yells in person and when nobody else is around.  I would consider her very intelligent and high functioning compare to some other stories I've read on here.  There will be no suicide threats, or meltdowns in front of other people. My kids are very aware of this, but again I can't drag them into it.  I am taking notes now; but I am in a location where only one party consent is required to record conversations.  I really worry about what is going to happen if I try to leave, so I have started to record all of our conversations in hopes I can (and already have) gathered some evidence that her real personality is not the one the courts will see.  I know she can't get through a week without gaslighting, lying, threatening, or clearly manipulating me at least a few times.

Curious if anyone has any ideas on how to provide any proof to the courts? I am going to read that book but I feel as if I may not even get the chance before we split and I want to be as prepared as I can.

I am reading horror stories here of folks that have tried to split and had their lives and careers destroyed by spouses who were great at gaming the system. I can't see her doing some things like saying I abuse the kids; but I do think she'll try to say I was somehow abusive towards her...and she's leverage things like me apologizing for being jealous about this other guy after I said she could go on a trip to do it.  I regret not calling the police when she punched me in the face that time...that's for sure.  i won't be making that mistake again.