How much is intentional?

[Lalathegreat]

Had an interesting evening with pwBPD that was literally all over the place. Raging followed by tears followed by waif victim behavior followed by kind words followed by sex. More details when I can get to my laptop and type properly.

I found myself really struck by the rapid shifts - seeming more rapid than usual and it made me wonder how much of this is completely a result of being disregulated, and how much is conscious manipulation.

In discussions with my friends they seem to think he is very aware and deliberate in his manipulation. But the lack of control is so hallmark with this disorder that I wonder if he has any control at all.

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

If you put aside what your friends say, what does your gut say?

I know that my ex did some pretty weird stuff. I don't think I ever felt like he was ever intentionally trying to hurt me. He was simply trying to get a grip in the only way he knew how. After the fact, I did wonder how he was able to look at me with bewilderment when I said that I found his behavior hurtful. It was like he wasn't doing anything deliberately and then he wasn't understanding how/why what he did was hurtful, which left me wondering What the heck? It doesn't matter if it is intentional or deliberate. It still hurts. Nobody intends to stub his/her toe. It still hurts whether there was intent or not.

It can sometimes be difficult when trying to explain this stuff to people because it seems like they assume that he is being manipulative or deliberate. Ex was impulsive. As such, there was no room to be deliberate. Any manipulation was a result of him acting like an impulsive child. Unless somebody has seen it and experienced it, I don't think they really get that it isn't intentional or deliberate. It is akin to a child trying to get his way in the moment.

[Lalathegreat]

It depends. There are times when he is CLEARLY not in control of himself or his actions. There are other times when I feel like he is clearly making a decision to change tactics. And it seems like sometimes he will be in the middle of a rage he can't seem to control and then something will snap and he will be return to a more rational place. For example, the evening he chased me across his apartment parking lot I turned around and he was kneeling down with his hands in the air. He had been completely out of control, and then it seemed that was a much more concious choice made in an effort to show me he was back in control and I had "nothing to fear".

At the end of the day I'm not even sure it matters. None of it is "normal" or "easy". But I do wonder... .

[formflier]

I

It can sometimes be difficult when trying to explain this stuff to people because it seems like they assume that he is being manipulative or deliberate. Ex was impulsive.  

Lalathegreat,

Everything so far about your story tells me that his actions are not "deliberately" manipulative, but more a result of very intense feelings.  (very general explanation)

My explanation for him kneeling is that YOUR ACTIONS were SO SHOCKING to him (the act of walking away) that he "realized" he needed to do something new.  His "comfortable" way of controlling his feelings WAS NOT WORKING... .so he changed.

It's about his feelings... .not manipulating you... .although it can appear at first glance to be about manipulating you.

This illustrates a "LAW"... .think "law of gravity" type of law... .about dealing with pwBPD.

They "listen" and pay attention to your ACTIONS much more than your words.

When you get to a place where you words and actions "match"... .what you communicate will be very powerful.

Big picture:  At first hint of him loosing control... .we need to help you have a healthy response.

The story about switching back and forth... ending up with sex and all that.  IS NOT HEALTHY for either of you or the r/s.

I do understand... .I've been there... .done the wild back and forth... .MASSIVE make up sex... .

Honestly... .I don't miss it.  I used to miss it some... .it's been a while since I've longing for that kind of thing.

What I'm saying is it will be a hard dynamic to break... .but it is possible and YOU will be better off for it... .and him... .and the r/s.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

In discussions with my friends they seem to think he is very aware and deliberate in his manipulation.

I'd draw a distinction between intentional and self-aware as far as the manipulation goes.

The pattern of manipulation is very clear. It is also very effective (look how much you've been broken down already!) The actions have a result/payoff for him every time; it isn't random, that is for sure!

I cannot find any way out of believing that it isn't intended in that way.

Now the question comes up--is he aware that he's manipulating you. Is he planning out things to do to manipulate you, and aware he is doing it?

BPD and NPD are often comorbid, and have a bit of overlap as well. People with more and stronger narcissistic traits tend to be more aware of their manipulations, and those without don't seem to realize what they are doing and why.

Whatever, that question is secondary, don't waste too much energy on it. The better question is what can you do about it... .and I find that those answers are the same either way.

[Lalathegreat]

It's interesting that you mention NPD because there was a time when I felt that he fit that diagnosis. While our honeymoon period was, in many ways, amazing - I did have concerns about his inflated sense of self and the way he would frequently "remind me" of how wonderful he was. How smart, how attractive, how many women he COULD have, etc. as a tactic (I think) to make me feel flattered that he would CHOOSE me. It was after I began to see the rages, mood swings, and corresponding shame and noticed the push/pull pattern that my research pointed me more in the direction of BPD. I do still believe that there is a level of narcisissm in play.

I remember one time he told me that he was very good at manipulating people but had decided that he wouldn't do it anymore because it made him feel guilty. He did seem to take a certain amount of pride in it however - particularly as it pertained to his sexual relationships.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand remembering all this is making me wonder all over again how the hell I got into this relationship because TALK ABOUT BLOODY WRITING ON THE WALL EH?

[PeteWitsend]

... .

I know that my ex did some pretty weird stuff. I don't think I ever felt like he was ever intentionally trying to hurt me. He was simply trying to get a grip in the only way he knew how. After the fact, I did wonder how he was able to look at me with bewilderment when I said that I found his behavior hurtful... .

... .

my wife did the same thing the first time I said that to her... ."I got mad and confused when you did that, and I had trouble focusing at work the next day."

she seemed shocked to learn I also had feelings, and we had a long talk that seemed productive.

the realization didn't provoke any sort of long term understanding on her part though.  I thought maybe emotional honesty was the best policy, but the next time (and everytime since) I tried to explain that I was upset by something she did or said she reacted with the usual tactics: tells me I'm wrong, changes the story, changes the facts, justifies her behavior by something I did or said months ago, etc. 

it's exhausting.