Do I make amends with my bpdM or go no contact?

[Depression = 72% of members]

This is a follow up to a previous post about me cancelling the wedding that my mom was paying for because of the way she was acting. My mom just sent me this email and left a voicemail. She's still blocked on my phone but I guess she can still leave voicemails. The voicemail was actually nice. I don't want to talk to her anymore at all. I don't like that she said I wrote an "extremely nasty email" in her apology email. In the email I first sent her I said I appreciated everything she had done but my partner and I had decided to get married at city all. I never said anything mean. I don't like that her apologies always have a "but". This is the email:

"Hi (my name),

I'm so sad and I'm sure you have been, too. Could you and I get together to talk? I'm proposing that we go to the Keg this Saturday night - our treat. It would be good to talk in a safe, neutral space. I'm reaching out here, so, I hope you will take me up on it. I know my emails hurt you and I'm so sorry for that. Your extremely nasty email to Dad and me - totally undeserved and disrespectful - has pierced my heart. I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you. Please respond and let me know if you are willing and able to sit down, break bread with me, and talk.

Love,

Mom xxoo"

I wrote back, "I'm not ready to talk yet. I'll let you know when I am. Love (my name)."

Going no contact for now has been such a relief. I don't panic every time the phone rings. Usually, even if she's not mad, I get anxious when I see that she's calling me because I never know if she will be mad. I don't want to go back to talking to her because I know that inevitably she will get mad again and the drama will happen again. I am sad though. She did many nice things and was usually quite loving. I just always felt like I was walking on eggshells (like I'm sure all of you have experienced and the book is called). I feel like this space has finally allowed me to catch my breath after a long time of holding it. I want to cry though because I do love my mom and now I can't help but feel guilty because I know that she's hurting (even though I know it's not my fault). My mom used to sing me a song called "It's alright to cry" when I would get upset about something that had happened at school (I was/am very sensitive). I feel so torn. If I cut her out I'll get more peace of mind and freedom most days. I just feel so guilty because I know she'll be so devastated and she has done so many nice things for me/often been a loving mother. I said to my partner today that if anyone else in my life acted the way she does I would have cut them out of my life a long time ago. I feel so sad and don't know what to do. I feel like I'm grieving a loss even though I haven't made up my mind yet. Right now, I keep thinking in my head "I want my Mommy" even though I'm an adult. I don't know what to do.

[wmm]

This is a follow up to a previous post about me cancelling the wedding that my mom was paying for because of the way she was acting. My mom just sent me this email and left a voicemail. She's still blocked on my phone but I guess she can still leave voicemails. The voicemail was actually nice. I don't want to talk to her anymore at all. I don't like that she said I wrote an "extremely nasty email" in her apology email. In the email I first sent her I said I appreciated everything she had done but my partner and I had decided to get married at city all. I never said anything mean. I don't like that her apologies always have a "but". This is the email:

"Hi (my name),

I'm so sad and I'm sure you have been, too. Could you and I get together to talk? I'm proposing that we go to the Keg this Saturday night - our treat. It would be good to talk in a safe, neutral space. I'm reaching out here, so, I hope you will take me up on it. I know my emails hurt you and I'm so sorry for that. Your extremely nasty email to Dad and me - totally undeserved and disrespectful - has pierced my heart. I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you. Please respond and let me know if you are willing and able to sit down, break bread with me, and talk.

Love,

Mom xxoo"

I wrote back, "I'm not ready to talk yet. I'll let you know when I am. Love (my name)."

Going no contact for now has been such a relief. I don't panic every time the phone rings. Usually, even if she's not mad, I get anxious when I see that she's calling me because I never know if she will be mad. I don't want to go back to talking to her because I know that inevitably she will get mad again and the drama will happen again. I am sad though. She did many nice things and was usually quite loving. I just always felt like I was walking on eggshells (like I'm sure all of you have experienced and the book is called). I feel like this space has finally allowed me to catch my breath after a long time of holding it. I want to cry though because I do love my mom and now I can't help but feel guilty because I know that she's hurting (even though I know it's not my fault). My mom used to sing me a song called "It's alright to cry" when I would get upset about something that had happened at school (I was/am very sensitive). I feel so torn. If I cut her out I'll get more peace of mind and freedom most days. I just feel so guilty because I know she'll be so devastated and she has done so many nice things for me/often been a loving mother. I said to my partner today that if anyone else in my life acted the way she does I would have cut them out of my life a long time ago. I feel so sad and don't know what to do. I feel like I'm grieving a loss even though I haven't made up my mind yet. Right now, I keep thinking in my head "I want my Mommy" even though I'm an adult. I don't know what to do.

[wmm]

Update, my mom just told me that she's having a biopsy for pancreatic cancer. It's a manipulative card to pull but I feel even more guilty now. I also feel pissed off and just totally overwhelmed with emotions. I didn't reply yet. At the same time, I had the awful thought that life will be easier when she's gone. I feel like a horrible and selfish person now (which she might tell me in another email).

[Notwendy]

When I don't go along with what my mother wants, it's assumed that I did something wrong- that I did something horrible. That "horrible nasty email" she refers to seems to be part of this kind of thinking. To her, it's not her fault that she wrote emails back. Although it's hard to do, it's best to not take this kind of thing personally or react to it.

Rather than decide to be NC once and for all, maybe take it one step at a time. The time to talk to her is when you feel less upset, more stable on your emotions and feel you can handle it. When and if that happens, you can decide to communicate. I think the email you sent was appropriate- making it about you- you aren't ready and you will let her know.

I hope your mother is well. At this point, it's a test- you don't know the results. You can email back that you hope all goes well and everything is OK.

We feel what we feel, and all your feelings are normal. Few people are all good or all bad. I think that's what makes relationships with abuse difficult. Sometimes the person is good to us, they also have good qualities. As children, we feel we somehow have control over their behavior and that if we were only good enough, all would be OK. Keep in mind that stable loving parents are not abusive or manipulative to their children- even when their children misbehave or don't do what they want. It is normal to long for the good parts of the relationship but not the other. There's also the longing for a mother- the mother we wish they could be- and maybe are at times.

[wmm]

I replied back to my mother after she told me that she was getting tested for pancreatic cancer that I was thinking of her and I loved her very much but I was not ready to talk. She emailed me back that I had disowned her and she would never forget it. My dad reminded me that she was drunk (she's an alcoholic) and to not talk to her after 4pm (this was at 9pm). Her response just made me more sure that I had done the right thing. There is a possibility that she is starving herself on purpose. She had anorexia when she was younger and in 2020 she made up that my sister was in the ICU with covid when my sister didn't even have Covid. She told all of her church friends this. My family doesn't know she did that. I only knew because a friend of hers reached out to me telling me they were praying for my sister. It's hard to know what's real and what's not real with her

[Notwendy]

My mother also tells lies a lot. Once I realized that she does this, I was shocked to see it. She's elderly now and I cross check what she tells me with speaking to others to find out what may be going on. She might call me acting upset, then speak to someone else and act fine.

She's disowned me before, then undoes it. Then blames me for something. It's distressing. I think you are at the point where you can choose what to do. It seems at this point that there is some contact.

One reason to consider is your father and how much you want to have contact with him. With my parents, it was a package deal. Had I gone NC with her, it would have included him too. Also, if I had a boundary with her she'd enlist him to "side with her" - read up on the Karpman triangle for an explanation of these dynamics. When your father emailed you "she was drunk" keep in mind, he might be smoothing things over, rescuing her.

Eating disorders and substance abuse can coexist with BPD. Alcohol numbs emotional pain. You might want to consider looking at an ACA 12 step group. The family dysfunctional patterns where there is an alcoholic in the family are similar to a family with a disordered person, and in your family, overlap. I have found these groups helpful for insight and support.

[Methuen]

Your extremely nasty email to Dad and me - totally undeserved and disrespectful - has pierced my heart. I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you. Please respond and let me know if you are willing and able to sit down, break bread with me, and talk.

I can’t help but think that the first (nice) part of her email was the big hook, but this part is the bait.  Bite (by going to the restaurant) and she will reel you in.   The two parts of the email are so different: the first part comes across as sugar coated and sweet, but is then followed by an attack which blames you.  They couldn’t be more different and yet they are written by the same person.  It would be hard for anyone to trust the author of that email.  It seems like two different people wrote it.  Which one would show up to the “Keg”?

I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you.

What is there to “work out”?  You’ve already told her what you are doing - cancelling the wedding.  There’s nothing to “work out”.  In your past experience with your mom, has there ever been a time where you could reason with your mom if there was something she was determined to have?  Is there any evidence in your history that suggests you could talk rationally to work out a big problem?  Has she ever come around to seeing your point of view?

The (breaking bread) bit grated me the wrong way.  Feels manipulative.

I think your email reply was excellent.   Simple, brief, and kind.

As for the medical test.  It could be real, but it could also only be real to her.  Another simple email such as “I hope your test goes ok.  Thinking of you” is an option.

You are not a horrible selfish person for having thoughts.   We wouldn’t have those thoughts if history hadn’t given us reason to think them in the first place.  Thoughts are not a crime.

You mention how much better you are feeling now that you haven’t had contact for a while.  Notice that, and keep working towards keeping that “safe feeling “.  Everyone deserves to feel safe.  I can relate to being anxious when the phone rings - or when a text comes in.  It is good that you are noticing those feelings of anxiety.  It is also good that you are taking steps to do what you have to do to feel emotionally safe.  Keep working at feeling better.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi wmm,

I just want to join the others and encourage you that you are walking through this well. It's such a huge change for you to stand up to your mom, so it's not going to feel good to you. The stretching and growing is tough, but as you are currently experiencing, there is a positive to this change in spite of the inner battle you are experiencing at the same time. I think that experiencing a positive and negative feeling (being more relaxed and at the same time worrying about your choice) at the same time can cause us to feel unsteady, but like a child learning to walk, you will get better at walking through these emotions and feelings with practice and time. Keep at it! You're doing well! 

 
Wools

[Methuen]

Just saw your latest post.  

Her response just made me more sure that I had done the right thing.

Good.  Sounds like you are learning to trust your instincts.

My mom tells lies to.  Sometimes she lies because she doesn’t want to get caught at something.  Other times she has “made stuff up”.  Nothing they say can be taken at face value or trusted.  It’s just sad.  

My mom had anorexia when she was younger too - around the time when she was pregnant with me and after giving birth.  Shes had a lifelong body image problem.  There isn’t a single picture of her pregnant with me.  Now she’s 85 and frail and so weak physically she doesn’t have the strength to walk unaided.  I recently took her for her 3rd Covid shot.  When we walked out of there she said “I don’t ever want to look like those obese people”.  She weighs a little over a hundred pounds.  If your mom has quit eating, that is her choice.  It is not your responsibility if she doesn’t eat..  You can’t  fix her.  Just like I can’t prevent my mom’s next fall.

[GaGrl]

You know that your email was in no way "extremely nasty," or "undeserved and disrespectful." Your mother interpreted the action of your rejecting her wedding plans and requirements as rejecting of her. All the negative emotions she is feeling come from within her and are a result of her innate inability to process those emotions as a healthy person would.

So put her accusations aside. They don't belong to you.

And you know she won't own them, so it won't do any good to ask her what she found disrespectful or extremely nasty. Don't let her take you down that rabbit hole.

Your mother's alcoholism is very concerning. Your dad has given you a very practical suggestion to not talk to her after 4 PM. If she is so inebriated by 4 PM each day that you can't have a conversation, maybe that becomes your boundary -- " I won't talk to my mother after 4 PM or at any time I perceive she is inebriated."

ACOA was very helpful to my best friend whose father was a night functioning alcoholic and whose mother was uNPD.

[wmm]

I will avoid talking to her in the evening. I told her that I was thinking of her and I loved her very much but I wasn't ready to talk to her. She said I had disowned her and she would never forget it. I really don't want to talk to her anymore. I just feel pressure from my family

[Notwendy]

I understand. There's pressure in general from family and also society to have a relationship with our mothers and that, if we can't- there must be something wrong with us.

Yes, she says she will never forget it. Honestly, what parent decides to not forgive a child for disagreeing with them? If that were the case, all teenagers would be unforgivable. You didn't disown her.

When there is a conflict - she can not fathom it has anything to do with her. It must therefore be your fault. That's how she's going to process it, unfortunately.

You decide how much contact you wish to have, and also what your boundaries are. Alcohol abuse also makes this complicated. By getting drunk, she can alter her feelings and possibly also her memory of things. Your father is in a tough place with this. But you have the choice to not put up with it.

[wmm]

My mom emailed me yesterday when she was sober and said she would not talk to me until I gave her a "sincere apology" because I told her I wasn't ready to talk to her after she told me she was getting a biopsy. No way am I apologizing to her. I've had enough. I don't want to deal with her. She has other mental health problems but I know other people who are alcoholics or who have bipolar disorder. None of them are abusive like her. It's the bpd and her being a narcissist that makes her like this. In don't want her in my life anymore. When it comes to someone upsetting her she never forgets it and brings it up again the next time she gets mad. If I accept her back into my life she'll do it again the next time she gets upset. I think that most of my family members will still talk to me. My brother can come visit me and my older sister said I could always visit her (she doesn't have a car to drive to my place). My dad still talks to me. If my younger sister wants to take my mom's side like she does that's not my problem. I need the peace that I get when I don't talk to my mom. Having issues affects my whole life. It affects my work and my personal life. I've had enough.

[Flossy]

I've had enough.

Write this down. Put it on your wall or your mirror. Anywhere you will see it daily.

This is your bottom line. This is your conclusion. It is justified. You have the right. You have done enough. You have had enough. You are reasonable and sensible.

You need to say this to yourself every day several times a day. Believe it and know we have all read what she has done and will do to you forever.

You have had enough.

I am so happy for you that you have come to this conclusion. It will be more practise now to reinforce your right to be NC.

I recommend doing a block on her email account or change your email address if you cant block her. She no longer has the right to come into your home in any manner ever again. If you wouldn't allow a toxic person to come into your lounge room, they dont get to come into your home by email, text or phone call ever again.

[Notwendy]

I don't blame you.

One thing to be prepared for is the possibility that she will insist your father cut contact. When I set boundaries with my BPD mother, she controlled my father's relationship with me and damaged it. Her story is that I abandoned my father. That's what she tells people.

I didn't do that and would not have ever considered that. It's that I couldn't tolerate her abuse when I visited and decided I would not tolerate it.

If this happens, please don't take it personally. One thing I had to come to an understanding of was that, even though she has the disorder, my father was as much a part of the dynamics in their relationship as an enabler/rescuer even though he seemed like the more reasonable one.

I will bet your father is as well. I've spent enough time in ACA ( ACOA) groups to know that where there's a pair and one is a dysfunctional alcoholic- the "understanding and caring" spouse is most likely a codependent enabler.

The original AA Blue Book is interesting. First, it was written decades ago so some of the discussion reflect the time. The alcoholics are referred to as men, and their partners were the wives. Now we know these roles could be any gender. What they found was that, in the early times, they could get the men to work on being sober, but the wives were actually making it worse for them. It puzzled them, as the wives were "so loving, caring, supportive"- who wanted their husbands to stop drinking? It was then that they discovered the impact of enabling behavior and addressed that.

When there is a disordered person in the family, with or without alcohol, the dynamics are similar. Co dependency is also a difficult pattern to intervene in.

I could not understand how my father could be willing to discard his relationship with me, but then, I also knew he lived with her and complying was his way of coping with the dynamics. The dynamics between your parents are complicated.

You can decide to have your own separate world. Please know that their behaviors are more about them than you.

[zachira]

I am glad you are getting support from members here about deciding you have had enough and want no contact with your mother for now. So many people will not understand and try to tell you this is your mother and you should revere her. It is so different when we have a mother who abuses us and we have to make the decision to limit contact for our own wellbeing. No contact does not have to be permanent though it can be if that is what is best for you. Certainly a large period of time with no contact with your mother will give you time to heal. We often live in fear of the next episode  of abuse which puts us in a state of ongoing anxiety and does not allow healing.

[GaGrl]

Does the company/organization you work for have an Employee Assistance Plan? They can either recommend several therapists or point you in the right direction to get specific help with the BPD and alcoholism combo.

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
Your mom's email started off really nice.  The Keg?  How lovely (personally, I love their blue cheese steak and it would be hard for me to not accept this invite!)  But then it had that weird, Dr. Jekyl /Mr. Hyde twist in it.  She became the darker her, the real her.  It was chilling.  My BPD mom does this too.  She has those two sides, and since you don't know which one you're going to get, you have to always worry the dark one will suddenly appear.  She is the one that needs to control, needs to manipulate, has a compulsion to get you back in line.  All of this feels manipulative and "icky" too me.  That is not love, it's controlling.

She has disowned you and will never forget...

This actually made me laugh because while my Mom never said it to me, she could have.  She reached out to my childhood friends who contacted my on Facebook, when I went NC the first time.  She had these weird compulsions to tell all my siblings about how I'd wronged her.  Then, when I came back (7 years later) she welcomed me with open arms, and it was like I hadn't done anything to her.  Except my brother was super pissed cause she forgot, but he didn't.  He made sure to get in her jabs to me, for her.  This is a family system, afterall, and it's dysfunctional.  So while my mom could turn on a dime, my brother could not.    We were in this honeymoon phase until, she slowly slowly reached that need to compusively manipulate again.  I read all those books that say "BPD's mellow with age" and I had hope; but, not really buying that story at the moment.  To manage me through fear of her, is her MO and only MO.  So, I'm on round 2 of NC. 

It's not a question you need to ask anyone here, when it's time you will know it and it will just happen.  I'm very proud of you for your responses, which were spot on and showed strength and courage.  I like to visualize standing up to my Mom without the guilt that typically follows.

Keep doing the work and through your feelings of loss and grief, it will get better, I promise.

NC was not the end, it was the begininng for me.  The beginning of finding out who I was, what I liked, who I wanted to be sans a control freak of a mother.  It is incredibly freeing and also terrifying to experience this all at once, but also necessary for healing, I believe.

((wmm)

b

[wmm]

Thank you everyone for your support.

I just talked to my dad on the phone. It was nice to talk to him but at the same time it was difficult listening to him talk about my mom. He said he's putting up with her right now because of her possible cancer scare (she hasn't gotten the biopsy yet). I think cancer or no cancer, he'd stay with her anyways. I think he's afraid to be alone. He asked me when I was going to talk to my mom. I told him it wouldn't be for awhile because it was too stressful with my work and I'm injured as well. He seemed ok with this but I have a feeling that he'll pressure me to talk to her soon. I didn't tell him I had decided to go NC with her and I don't think he'll be able to accept that. He didn't know about all of my mom's emails, especially the last one where she insisted I apologize to her. He told me he was going through a lot dealing with my mom. I listened to him talk but I didn't really like it. I'm going to be ok though. When I told him I was injured from work he seemed to not even hear it because he was so caught up with his own problems. This didn't surprise me that much but it did hurt a little. It would just be nice to have one supportive parent. You guys did warn me about this though so I wasn't so shocked.

I overshared with a colleague at work about the problems my mother. I thought I could talk to her because she had an emotionality abusive ex who was a narcissist and I thought she would understand. I realize now that I probably took it too far. Have any of you done this before? My problems are so normal to me but when I tell other people they're just shocked and most seem like they don't want to hear it. I've gotten better at not oversharing with people but I was having a really tough time. Should I apologize to her? She's passive aggressive and I don't want her talking badly about me behind my back like she does with other people. It's too late to take it back now though.

[zachira]

All of us on PSI have overshared with the wrong people at times. It can be really disappointing when the sharing is a one way street like with your coworker. With time and practice, you will have a better idea of who is safe to share with, though there will always be people who disappoint you in how they respond.

[Methuen]

My problems are so normal to me but when I tell other people they're just shocked and most seem like they don't want to hear it. I've gotten better at not oversharing with people but I was having a really tough time. Should I apologize to her?

I think it's great that you are observing that what is "normal" to you, is shocking to someone else.  I think it's a part of healing to become aware of that.

I can understand why the oversharing happened.  I once shared info with my closest friend (about 2 years ago).  She was clearly uncomfortable with it, and since she knew my mom, not very validating.  She has a sister who struggles with mental illness and has received invasive treatments, so I thought she might understand.  I regretted it after it became clear she was struggling to accept what I told her.  But I spilled the beans at the time because what was happening in my life with my mom was really intense, and I failed to "reign it in" on one of our walks, and just vented.  What you have been going through (cancelling the wedding) was more a more intense event than I had, so I get the need to vent.  But, like you, I was aware that what I shared was hard for her to understand (she has a normal loving mom and they have a great relationship), and I vowed to keep my sharing with this board, my H, and my therapist after that.  My friend is a past colleague whom I know understands and practices confidentiality, so I trust her to not speak to anyone outside of our conversations.  But I considered my oversharing a learning experience for me.  Two years later, my good friend (walking partner) is quite understanding and more empathetic now, but at the time her reaction was to feel uncomfortable.

In terms of apologizing, I would just acknowledge that you regret sharing "too much" about your personal life, and you are sorry if it made her uncomfortable.  Keep it simple and brief.  See how she responds.  Don't draw attention to it or make a big deal of it. In the future, if you need to share with someone you know, probably best to do it with someone you really trust whom you know won't break your confidence, or stick to this board, a T, or your partner.  These happenings are all learning experiences for us, and give us opportunities to grow as people.  It's important to allow ourselves to be human, and reflect back on how we handled something to see if we would do anything differently the next time.

As an aside, one thing I did when I started my healing journey two years ago, was invite my H along to my T sessions.  I figured he would benefit from hearing what a professional had to say as well, since he has to deal with my uBPD mom as well.  It's been helpful for both of us.

[wmm]

I feel like my dad is pressuring me to talk to my mother. He texted me today and told me that my mom was going to write me a letter and mail it to me. He told me that she wanted him to call me. She doesn't know yet that I spoke to him on the phone yesterday and I asked him not to tell her (don't know whether or not he will). I told my dad that I wasn't ready to talk to her. I said that I had a lot of personal stress and I couldn't deal with her mood changes. I'm worried that my dad is going to be mad at me and take my mother's side if I don't talk to her soon. I really don't want to talk to her and having him text me about her stresses me out. How should I deal with him? I think that he's going to keep pushing because he doesn't want to deal with my mom being upset. I know he's very stressed out right now, which is not my problem. I don't want to lose him too but I also don't want my mother in my life right now.

[Notwendy]

All families behave as one system in terms of behavior of each person. When there's a dysfunctional family member, the other family members take on certain behaviors in order to keep some sort of balance. They may not be ideally functional ones but they serve a purpose to keep the family in a certain balance.

When one person changes their behavior- in this case appeasing mom to setting boundaries- the entire family can feel out of balance. The first step is for family members to try to get the person to get back into their usual roles to make the family feel comfortable again. If that doesn't work, there may be more action- to the point of possibly expelling the family member.

I went through something similar with my BPD mother, but it was not at the wedding. It was over having boundaries with her over my kids and with her emotional /verbal abuse during my father's illness. I know you don't want to lose the relationship with your father. I didn't either- to the point where I tolerated a lot of my mother's behavior just to stay in his good graces. However, when it came to my kids there was no way I'd allow that.

It should not have to be a choice between your well being and your mother staying happy at the expense of your own peace of mind and your own marriage. It should not have to be a choice between my father's approval and keeping my kids emotionally safe. Unfortunately that was how it is in my family.

My mother got angry and intervened in my relationship with my father. However, the alternative- let her use my kids as emotional caretakers, was unacceptable.

[Flossy]

wmm

I think you need to stick to your guns. You are likely right that your Dad is putting pressure on you to keep the pressure off him.

Tell him sentences starting with "I need you to... or not to..."

Throw in that he might need to go talk to his doctor if he is stressed out, or someone else you can name. Say all you need to say in a calm voice but stay strong. Tell him you feel for him but you need to look after yourself at the moment and cant give a time when things will change.

Ask him not to text you, but only discuss things on the phone regarding your Mum. You find texts highly distressing.

Pick 1-3 definites to state when you talk to him or text him after the last time and stick to those. The most important ones for you. Let the smaller details and the "what ifs" go for now. Just focus on what you are ok with and what you are not. Set some foundations. 1 to 3 each time. You may have to repeat them each contact you have with him as he needs to unlearn his behaviours with triangulating with you and your mother.

You can do this. Dont think too far ahead.

[Notwendy]

A couple of things I learned from interactions with my parents:

Things my father said to me were often dictated by my mother. She would demand he contact me and say X, Y, Z. She also has done this with her caretakers ( she's elderly and has home health).

Sometimes my mother will say something to me and it sounds just like my father. I know that after many years of marriage people can say a lot of common things, but now I also see it as some kind of enmeshment- she mirrors him or vice versa. Even though he was easier to get along with, she was mostly in control.

Every interaction with my father was shared with my mother- emails, she listened in on phone calls, and anything I said to him was shared with her. Know that whatever you text or say or email to your father will also be shared with your mother.

If your father is putting pressure on you to communicate with your mother, it's also likely she's pressuring him to do that. This is Karpman triangle dynamics. Your father is rescuer to your mother.

If your father vents to you, this is also Karpman triangle. In this situation, your father is taking victim perspective. He feels pressured by your mother, and you are expected to be the rescuer in this situation and appease her.

I perceived my father as a victim of my mother's behavior. He would say things like "mother insists you do this". But what about him? He had choices too. He could also say no to her, but he often didn't, because it's really tough to say no to her. In a way, I don't blame him for avoiding her reactions. They are difficult.

Looking at the family dynamics through the lens of the Karpman triangle helped me to understand them and participate less in those roles when I do interact with her.

[beatricex]

hi again wmm,
I echo what others are saying here and this is very hard, I get it.

I had to cut off my Dad when I went no contact with my Mom.  It was very difficult. 

I hold onto lots of memories of us camping and hiking together, this was a "no Mom drama zone" for me, we did not discuss her when my Dad and I (and often other siblings) did this together.  We did not discuss anything, really, just hiked in silence.  My Dad is a Vietnam war veteran and he is a quiet person, he doesn't really care for a lot of babbling talk.

I have memories of my Dad, but no, I found it impossible to cut only her off and not him.  Like others have mentioned, he has marching orders, and she dicatates what he has to do, much of the time.

Good luck and let me know how the situation unfolds, especially what you are doing to cope with the loss of both your parents (at least emotionally) at a time in your life when you really need them (a new marriage!).

Neither of my parents attended my last wedding, in fact, we eloped.

b

[beatricex]

wmm,
Is your heart telling you you should talk to your Mom?  Is it saying you should talk to your Dad?  or, is your heart just hurting a lot these days because neither one of these family members seems capable of getting on board with supporting you on your day - your wedding day.  After weddings comes "new job day"  after that "baby day"  etc etc ...how long will you wait for these people to come around and give you the support you deserve and need? 

I waited about 25 years.  Now I plan s!it without them.  I had a beautiful wedding, in Hawaii.  I married the love of my life.  Did I want my sucky parents there?  No I didn't even think about them I was thinking about ME. 

Somehow some way they would have F'd it up.  It kind of goes w the BPD and NPD. 

When r u getting married and r u still worried about these $&/?  Just asking cause r they going to care one way or another, it's not about THEM.  Rule #1 of narcissism, if it aint about them they don care. I have personally adopted the idea that my marriage is about me and my husband.

There is a saying, we will carry a huge boulder around, we carry it even when others point out "u should drop that rock before it lands on ur toe!"  "That rock sure looks heavy...think u can carry it?"  etc

We carry the boulder until out of exhaustion we drop it.

Sans guilt, sans obligation, and sans regret, I have taken my rock, flown it out into the ocean and dropped it off the coast of California.  It felt so big I probably created a tsunami when I dropped it outta that 747.  yep,'that's the one we flew to Hawaii in.

let it goo...

b

[wmm]

I think I messed up.

My dad texted me and told me that my mom was depressed and threatening suicide. He mentioned my younger brother (who still lives there even though he's 24) in the text. The text about my brother didn't make sense and I freaked out. I was worried that my brother was going to have to deal with my mom again (I'm the parentified older child). My brother is the youngest child. I called 911 and told them my mom was threatening suicide. The police and paramedics went to her house and talked to her. My brother was there. He's mad at me now for calling them. He told me not to talk to him after I asked him if he was ok. My mother threatens suicide a lot and my dad and brother try to smooth it over instead of doing anything else about it. Two years ago, my younger sister, who is really close to my mom, drove two hours from another town to drive my mom to emerge when she was suicidal instead of calling the police or asking my dad to do it. My brother told me before that he had been stressed out dealing with my mom's current mental health issues. I shouldn't have called 911. I had a feeling that she was just threatening it but she did attempt to kill herself once and I saved her life by breaking the belt that was around her neck. None of them have actually seen her try whereas I have so it really freaks me out. I did think twice before calling the police because I was worried my family was going to get mad at me (because that's how they are) and that I was breaking my no contact rule. My dad isn't mad at me. He said he should have called them and that the police helped (she's still at home). He never would have though. My main concern was my brother having to deal with her drama and also my sister getting mad at me for my brother dealing with her drama (she got mad at me before when my brother broke up a fight between my parents). I should have stayed out of it. I still haven't talked to my mom. My dad told me she mailed me a letter to apologize to me. I'm not going to read it. After my brother got mad at me I blocked my brother and younger sister because I was afraid of getting angry messages from them. I know that sounds extreme but I needed to know that I wasn't going to look at my phone and get an angry message. I told my dad not to tell me anything about my mom anymore. I don't think he's going to comply with my request though. He's been pressuring me to talk to my mom. I'm pretty sure it's because he doesn't want to have to deal with my mom's drama.

The saving grace was that my older sister (my dad's daughter) talked to me on the phone afterwards and was quite supportive. She said I could zoom with her and her mom (she's a half-sister) on the weekend. She invited me to her mom's place but it's far away and I'm feeling sick.

Before my older sister replied to my text, I panicked and felt very alone/abandoned. My best friend had to set boundaries for herself and told me she couldn't help me at that moment and would talk to me tomorrow. My partner was going to sleep. He ended up getting up and talking to me for a bit after I asked him to but he wasn't very helpful. My fear of abandonment came back. I'm just kind of ranting I guess. It's just so overwhelming. I'm leaving the school where I work at as an educational assistant and starting a new position on December 2nd  because my contract at my current school will end. Apparently there are some troubled children at the new school that I will be going to but I need the money. Getting through work while dealing with my family problems and pretending like I'm ok has been really hard. I'm so emotionally exhausted. What kind of messed up family gets mad at someone for calling 911 when a parent threatens suicide? We're all just so used to it. It's not normal!

[Flossy]

1. You did not mess up. You did the perfect thing.
2. They will all take turns getting mad at you. No matter what you do.
     (because you are the Scapegoat)
3.  Accept that & expect it.
4. Don't react to it. Don't respond to it.
5. Focus on what you do as right and reasonable.
6. Let them fight it out. Don't participate.
7. Practise, practise, practise.
8. When the s### hits the fan have a list of things to do to look after     yourself.

Write this out and stick it on your wall. You are falling back into the patterns of self-blame they taught you. Practise unlearning it. Because it's bull and manipulation.

Maybe if they get a few visits from the police and ambulance they will stop throwing their drama at you. You did the perfect thing. Absolutely perfect.

PS They have caused you to constantly explain yourself. This is normal behaviour for traumatised people, but futile and hopeless and exhausting. Stop explaining to them. They will learn to accept that they cant manipulate you any more when they no longer get fuel to punish you with. They will have to deal with the drama they cause. They might take 5-10 years of blaming you. That is normal for these messed up people. If/when one or more come back to you, you will have had time to grow and get strong.If you stay in this dynamic your health will suffer permanently. I know it's hard but if you lose them all for a while, if any of them are worth it, such as your brother, he will come back in years to come. Without the ####. You can do this.

[lm1109]

Write this down. Put it on your wall or your mirror. Anywhere you will see it daily.

This is your bottom line. This is your conclusion. It is justified. You have the right. You have done enough. You have had enough. You are reasonable and sensible.

You need to say this to yourself every day several times a day. Believe it and know we have all read what she has done and will do to you forever.

This is amazing advice. I'm in and have been in a very similar situation with a BPD mother and I've also come to the the conclusion that I've had enough. That I deserve peace. It is my bottom line as well. I've done enough, I'm sure we all have. I sacrificed so many years of my life thinking that it was my responsibility to save my parents, literally keep them alive. I have a much bigger purpose, and so do you wmm. We all DESERVE to be happy.
I know I'm late in this thread and I haven't posted in years(until a few days ago), but this has been a place I've come to feel less alone and read advice for so many years, even when I didn't have the words or energy to post myself. The wealth of knowledge here is inspiring. I hope that everyone who shares advice and chooses to lift others up here regularly understands that you're helping so many more than just the poster.
Wmm, I've read a few of you're threads these past few days and I wish you all the best. I hope "you've had enough" like me. Putting all of our energy into bottomless pits serves no one. Shifting that energy to yourself, loving yourself, and choosing yourself, seems to be the only way out of the hell of living with bpds. Now I'm about to put a post it note up to remind myself as well! Sending everyone here lots of love

[Flossy]

IM1109
Great! Wonderful! Use whatever works best to put reminders where you will see it daily. These new thoughts need reinforcing and repeating by putting them into our brains over and over until they replace the old thoughts and twisted training these people gave us.
My very best wishes to you. x