Do I make amends with my bpdM or go no contact?

[wmm]

This is a follow up to a previous post about me cancelling the wedding that my mom was paying for because of the way she was acting. My mom just sent me this email and left a voicemail. She's still blocked on my phone but I guess she can still leave voicemails. The voicemail was actually nice. I don't want to talk to her anymore at all. I don't like that she said I wrote an "extremely nasty email" in her apology email. In the email I first sent her I said I appreciated everything she had done but my partner and I had decided to get married at city all. I never said anything mean. I don't like that her apologies always have a "but". This is the email:

"Hi (my name),

I'm so sad and I'm sure you have been, too. Could you and I get together to talk? I'm proposing that we go to the Keg this Saturday night - our treat. It would be good to talk in a safe, neutral space. I'm reaching out here, so, I hope you will take me up on it. I know my emails hurt you and I'm so sorry for that. Your extremely nasty email to Dad and me - totally undeserved and disrespectful - has pierced my heart. I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you. Please respond and let me know if you are willing and able to sit down, break bread with me, and talk.

Love,

Mom xxoo"

I wrote back, "I'm not ready to talk yet. I'll let you know when I am. Love (my name)."

Going no contact for now has been such a relief. I don't panic every time the phone rings. Usually, even if she's not mad, I get anxious when I see that she's calling me because I never know if she will be mad. I don't want to go back to talking to her because I know that inevitably she will get mad again and the drama will happen again. I am sad though. She did many nice things and was usually quite loving. I just always felt like I was walking on eggshells (like I'm sure all of you have experienced and the book is called). I feel like this space has finally allowed me to catch my breath after a long time of holding it. I want to cry though because I do love my mom and now I can't help but feel guilty because I know that she's hurting (even though I know it's not my fault). My mom used to sing me a song called "It's alright to cry" when I would get upset about something that had happened at school (I was/am very sensitive). I feel so torn. If I cut her out I'll get more peace of mind and freedom most days. I just feel so guilty because I know she'll be so devastated and she has done so many nice things for me/often been a loving mother. I said to my partner today that if anyone else in my life acted the way she does I would have cut them out of my life a long time ago. I feel so sad and don't know what to do. I feel like I'm grieving a loss even though I haven't made up my mind yet. Right now, I keep thinking in my head "I want my Mommy" even though I'm an adult. I don't know what to do.

[wmm]

Update, my mom just told me that she's having a biopsy for pancreatic cancer. It's a manipulative card to pull but I feel even more guilty now. I also feel pissed off and just totally overwhelmed with emotions. I didn't reply yet. At the same time, I had the awful thought that life will be easier when she's gone. I feel like a horrible and selfish person now (which she might tell me in another email).

[Notwendy]

When I don't go along with what my mother wants, it's assumed that I did something wrong- that I did something horrible. That "horrible nasty email" she refers to seems to be part of this kind of thinking. To her, it's not her fault that she wrote emails back. Although it's hard to do, it's best to not take this kind of thing personally or react to it.

Rather than decide to be NC once and for all, maybe take it one step at a time. The time to talk to her is when you feel less upset, more stable on your emotions and feel you can handle it. When and if that happens, you can decide to communicate. I think the email you sent was appropriate- making it about you- you aren't ready and you will let her know.

I hope your mother is well. At this point, it's a test- you don't know the results. You can email back that you hope all goes well and everything is OK.

We feel what we feel, and all your feelings are normal. Few people are all good or all bad. I think that's what makes relationships with abuse difficult. Sometimes the person is good to us, they also have good qualities. As children, we feel we somehow have control over their behavior and that if we were only good enough, all would be OK. Keep in mind that stable loving parents are not abusive or manipulative to their children- even when their children misbehave or don't do what they want. It is normal to long for the good parts of the relationship but not the other. There's also the longing for a mother- the mother we wish they could be- and maybe are at times.

[wmm]

I replied back to my mother after she told me that she was getting tested for pancreatic cancer that I was thinking of her and I loved her very much but I was not ready to talk. She emailed me back that I had disowned her and she would never forget it. My dad reminded me that she was drunk (she's an alcoholic) and to not talk to her after 4pm (this was at 9pm). Her response just made me more sure that I had done the right thing. There is a possibility that she is starving herself on purpose. She had anorexia when she was younger and in 2020 she made up that my sister was in the ICU with covid when my sister didn't even have Covid. She told all of her church friends this. My family doesn't know she did that. I only knew because a friend of hers reached out to me telling me they were praying for my sister. It's hard to know what's real and what's not real with her

[Notwendy]

My mother also tells lies a lot. Once I realized that she does this, I was shocked to see it. She's elderly now and I cross check what she tells me with speaking to others to find out what may be going on. She might call me acting upset, then speak to someone else and act fine.

She's disowned me before, then undoes it. Then blames me for something. It's distressing. I think you are at the point where you can choose what to do. It seems at this point that there is some contact.

One reason to consider is your father and how much you want to have contact with him. With my parents, it was a package deal. Had I gone NC with her, it would have included him too. Also, if I had a boundary with her she'd enlist him to "side with her" - read up on the Karpman triangle for an explanation of these dynamics. When your father emailed you "she was drunk" keep in mind, he might be smoothing things over, rescuing her.

Eating disorders and substance abuse can coexist with BPD. Alcohol numbs emotional pain. You might want to consider looking at an ACA 12 step group. The family dysfunctional patterns where there is an alcoholic in the family are similar to a family with a disordered person, and in your family, overlap. I have found these groups helpful for insight and support.

[Methuen]

Your extremely nasty email to Dad and me - totally undeserved and disrespectful - has pierced my heart. I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you. Please respond and let me know if you are willing and able to sit down, break bread with me, and talk.

I can’t help but think that the first (nice) part of her email was the big hook, but this part is the bait.  Bite (by going to the restaurant) and she will reel you in.   The two parts of the email are so different: the first part comes across as sugar coated and sweet, but is then followed by an attack which blames you.  They couldn’t be more different and yet they are written by the same person.  It would be hard for anyone to trust the author of that email.  It seems like two different people wrote it.  Which one would show up to the “Keg”?

I want so much to talk this out and work this out with you.

What is there to “work out”?  You’ve already told her what you are doing - cancelling the wedding.  There’s nothing to “work out”.  In your past experience with your mom, has there ever been a time where you could reason with your mom if there was something she was determined to have?  Is there any evidence in your history that suggests you could talk rationally to work out a big problem?  Has she ever come around to seeing your point of view?

The (breaking bread) bit grated me the wrong way.  Feels manipulative.

I think your email reply was excellent.   Simple, brief, and kind.

As for the medical test.  It could be real, but it could also only be real to her.  Another simple email such as “I hope your test goes ok.  Thinking of you” is an option.

You are not a horrible selfish person for having thoughts.   We wouldn’t have those thoughts if history hadn’t given us reason to think them in the first place.  Thoughts are not a crime.

You mention how much better you are feeling now that you haven’t had contact for a while.  Notice that, and keep working towards keeping that “safe feeling “.  Everyone deserves to feel safe.  I can relate to being anxious when the phone rings - or when a text comes in.  It is good that you are noticing those feelings of anxiety.  It is also good that you are taking steps to do what you have to do to feel emotionally safe.  Keep working at feeling better.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi wmm,

I just want to join the others and encourage you that you are walking through this well. It's such a huge change for you to stand up to your mom, so it's not going to feel good to you. The stretching and growing is tough, but as you are currently experiencing, there is a positive to this change in spite of the inner battle you are experiencing at the same time. I think that experiencing a positive and negative feeling (being more relaxed and at the same time worrying about your choice) at the same time can cause us to feel unsteady, but like a child learning to walk, you will get better at walking through these emotions and feelings with practice and time. Keep at it! You're doing well! 

 
Wools

[Methuen]

Just saw your latest post.  

Her response just made me more sure that I had done the right thing.

Good.  Sounds like you are learning to trust your instincts.

My mom tells lies to.  Sometimes she lies because she doesn’t want to get caught at something.  Other times she has “made stuff up”.  Nothing they say can be taken at face value or trusted.  It’s just sad.  

My mom had anorexia when she was younger too - around the time when she was pregnant with me and after giving birth.  Shes had a lifelong body image problem.  There isn’t a single picture of her pregnant with me.  Now she’s 85 and frail and so weak physically she doesn’t have the strength to walk unaided.  I recently took her for her 3rd Covid shot.  When we walked out of there she said “I don’t ever want to look like those obese people”.  She weighs a little over a hundred pounds.  If your mom has quit eating, that is her choice.  It is not your responsibility if she doesn’t eat..  You can’t  fix her.  Just like I can’t prevent my mom’s next fall.

[GaGrl]

You know that your email was in no way "extremely nasty," or "undeserved and disrespectful." Your mother interpreted the action of your rejecting her wedding plans and requirements as rejecting of her. All the negative emotions she is feeling come from within her and are a result of her innate inability to process those emotions as a healthy person would.

So put her accusations aside. They don't belong to you.

And you know she won't own them, so it won't do any good to ask her what she found disrespectful or extremely nasty. Don't let her take you down that rabbit hole.

Your mother's alcoholism is very concerning. Your dad has given you a very practical suggestion to not talk to her after 4 PM. If she is so inebriated by 4 PM each day that you can't have a conversation, maybe that becomes your boundary -- " I won't talk to my mother after 4 PM or at any time I perceive she is inebriated."

ACOA was very helpful to my best friend whose father was a night functioning alcoholic and whose mother was uNPD.

[wmm]

I will avoid talking to her in the evening. I told her that I was thinking of her and I loved her very much but I wasn't ready to talk to her. She said I had disowned her and she would never forget it. I really don't want to talk to her anymore. I just feel pressure from my family

[Notwendy]

I understand. There's pressure in general from family and also society to have a relationship with our mothers and that, if we can't- there must be something wrong with us.

Yes, she says she will never forget it. Honestly, what parent decides to not forgive a child for disagreeing with them? If that were the case, all teenagers would be unforgivable. You didn't disown her.

When there is a conflict - she can not fathom it has anything to do with her. It must therefore be your fault. That's how she's going to process it, unfortunately.

You decide how much contact you wish to have, and also what your boundaries are. Alcohol abuse also makes this complicated. By getting drunk, she can alter her feelings and possibly also her memory of things. Your father is in a tough place with this. But you have the choice to not put up with it.

[wmm]

My mom emailed me yesterday when she was sober and said she would not talk to me until I gave her a "sincere apology" because I told her I wasn't ready to talk to her after she told me she was getting a biopsy. No way am I apologizing to her. I've had enough. I don't want to deal with her. She has other mental health problems but I know other people who are alcoholics or who have bipolar disorder. None of them are abusive like her. It's the bpd and her being a narcissist that makes her like this. In don't want her in my life anymore. When it comes to someone upsetting her she never forgets it and brings it up again the next time she gets mad. If I accept her back into my life she'll do it again the next time she gets upset. I think that most of my family members will still talk to me. My brother can come visit me and my older sister said I could always visit her (she doesn't have a car to drive to my place). My dad still talks to me. If my younger sister wants to take my mom's side like she does that's not my problem. I need the peace that I get when I don't talk to my mom. Having issues affects my whole life. It affects my work and my personal life. I've had enough.

[Flossy]

I've had enough.

Write this down. Put it on your wall or your mirror. Anywhere you will see it daily.

This is your bottom line. This is your conclusion. It is justified. You have the right. You have done enough. You have had enough. You are reasonable and sensible.

You need to say this to yourself every day several times a day. Believe it and know we have all read what she has done and will do to you forever.

You have had enough.

I am so happy for you that you have come to this conclusion. It will be more practise now to reinforce your right to be NC.

I recommend doing a block on her email account or change your email address if you cant block her. She no longer has the right to come into your home in any manner ever again. If you wouldn't allow a toxic person to come into your lounge room, they dont get to come into your home by email, text or phone call ever again.

[Notwendy]

I don't blame you.

One thing to be prepared for is the possibility that she will insist your father cut contact. When I set boundaries with my BPD mother, she controlled my father's relationship with me and damaged it. Her story is that I abandoned my father. That's what she tells people.

I didn't do that and would not have ever considered that. It's that I couldn't tolerate her abuse when I visited and decided I would not tolerate it.

If this happens, please don't take it personally. One thing I had to come to an understanding of was that, even though she has the disorder, my father was as much a part of the dynamics in their relationship as an enabler/rescuer even though he seemed like the more reasonable one.

I will bet your father is as well. I've spent enough time in ACA ( ACOA) groups to know that where there's a pair and one is a dysfunctional alcoholic- the "understanding and caring" spouse is most likely a codependent enabler.

The original AA Blue Book is interesting. First, it was written decades ago so some of the discussion reflect the time. The alcoholics are referred to as men, and their partners were the wives. Now we know these roles could be any gender. What they found was that, in the early times, they could get the men to work on being sober, but the wives were actually making it worse for them. It puzzled them, as the wives were "so loving, caring, supportive"- who wanted their husbands to stop drinking? It was then that they discovered the impact of enabling behavior and addressed that.

When there is a disordered person in the family, with or without alcohol, the dynamics are similar. Co dependency is also a difficult pattern to intervene in.

I could not understand how my father could be willing to discard his relationship with me, but then, I also knew he lived with her and complying was his way of coping with the dynamics. The dynamics between your parents are complicated.

You can decide to have your own separate world. Please know that their behaviors are more about them than you.

[zachira]

I am glad you are getting support from members here about deciding you have had enough and want no contact with your mother for now. So many people will not understand and try to tell you this is your mother and you should revere her. It is so different when we have a mother who abuses us and we have to make the decision to limit contact for our own wellbeing. No contact does not have to be permanent though it can be if that is what is best for you. Certainly a large period of time with no contact with your mother will give you time to heal. We often live in fear of the next episode  of abuse which puts us in a state of ongoing anxiety and does not allow healing.

[GaGrl]

Does the company/organization you work for have an Employee Assistance Plan? They can either recommend several therapists or point you in the right direction to get specific help with the BPD and alcoholism combo.

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
Your mom's email started off really nice.  The Keg?  How lovely (personally, I love their blue cheese steak and it would be hard for me to not accept this invite!)  But then it had that weird, Dr. Jekyl /Mr. Hyde twist in it.  She became the darker her, the real her.  It was chilling.  My BPD mom does this too.  She has those two sides, and since you don't know which one you're going to get, you have to always worry the dark one will suddenly appear.  She is the one that needs to control, needs to manipulate, has a compulsion to get you back in line.  All of this feels manipulative and "icky" too me.  That is not love, it's controlling.

She has disowned you and will never forget...

This actually made me laugh because while my Mom never said it to me, she could have.  She reached out to my childhood friends who contacted my on Facebook, when I went NC the first time.  She had these weird compulsions to tell all my siblings about how I'd wronged her.  Then, when I came back (7 years later) she welcomed me with open arms, and it was like I hadn't done anything to her.  Except my brother was super pissed cause she forgot, but he didn't.  He made sure to get in her jabs to me, for her.  This is a family system, afterall, and it's dysfunctional.  So while my mom could turn on a dime, my brother could not.    We were in this honeymoon phase until, she slowly slowly reached that need to compusively manipulate again.  I read all those books that say "BPD's mellow with age" and I had hope; but, not really buying that story at the moment.  To manage me through fear of her, is her MO and only MO.  So, I'm on round 2 of NC. 

It's not a question you need to ask anyone here, when it's time you will know it and it will just happen.  I'm very proud of you for your responses, which were spot on and showed strength and courage.  I like to visualize standing up to my Mom without the guilt that typically follows.

Keep doing the work and through your feelings of loss and grief, it will get better, I promise.

NC was not the end, it was the begininng for me.  The beginning of finding out who I was, what I liked, who I wanted to be sans a control freak of a mother.  It is incredibly freeing and also terrifying to experience this all at once, but also necessary for healing, I believe.

((wmm)

b

[wmm]

Thank you everyone for your support.

I just talked to my dad on the phone. It was nice to talk to him but at the same time it was difficult listening to him talk about my mom. He said he's putting up with her right now because of her possible cancer scare (she hasn't gotten the biopsy yet). I think cancer or no cancer, he'd stay with her anyways. I think he's afraid to be alone. He asked me when I was going to talk to my mom. I told him it wouldn't be for awhile because it was too stressful with my work and I'm injured as well. He seemed ok with this but I have a feeling that he'll pressure me to talk to her soon. I didn't tell him I had decided to go NC with her and I don't think he'll be able to accept that. He didn't know about all of my mom's emails, especially the last one where she insisted I apologize to her. He told me he was going through a lot dealing with my mom. I listened to him talk but I didn't really like it. I'm going to be ok though. When I told him I was injured from work he seemed to not even hear it because he was so caught up with his own problems. This didn't surprise me that much but it did hurt a little. It would just be nice to have one supportive parent. You guys did warn me about this though so I wasn't so shocked.

I overshared with a colleague at work about the problems my mother. I thought I could talk to her because she had an emotionality abusive ex who was a narcissist and I thought she would understand. I realize now that I probably took it too far. Have any of you done this before? My problems are so normal to me but when I tell other people they're just shocked and most seem like they don't want to hear it. I've gotten better at not oversharing with people but I was having a really tough time. Should I apologize to her? She's passive aggressive and I don't want her talking badly about me behind my back like she does with other people. It's too late to take it back now though.

[zachira]

All of us on PSI have overshared with the wrong people at times. It can be really disappointing when the sharing is a one way street like with your coworker. With time and practice, you will have a better idea of who is safe to share with, though there will always be people who disappoint you in how they respond.

[Methuen]

My problems are so normal to me but when I tell other people they're just shocked and most seem like they don't want to hear it. I've gotten better at not oversharing with people but I was having a really tough time. Should I apologize to her?

I think it's great that you are observing that what is "normal" to you, is shocking to someone else.  I think it's a part of healing to become aware of that.

I can understand why the oversharing happened.  I once shared info with my closest friend (about 2 years ago).  She was clearly uncomfortable with it, and since she knew my mom, not very validating.  She has a sister who struggles with mental illness and has received invasive treatments, so I thought she might understand.  I regretted it after it became clear she was struggling to accept what I told her.  But I spilled the beans at the time because what was happening in my life with my mom was really intense, and I failed to "reign it in" on one of our walks, and just vented.  What you have been going through (cancelling the wedding) was more a more intense event than I had, so I get the need to vent.  But, like you, I was aware that what I shared was hard for her to understand (she has a normal loving mom and they have a great relationship), and I vowed to keep my sharing with this board, my H, and my therapist after that.  My friend is a past colleague whom I know understands and practices confidentiality, so I trust her to not speak to anyone outside of our conversations.  But I considered my oversharing a learning experience for me.  Two years later, my good friend (walking partner) is quite understanding and more empathetic now, but at the time her reaction was to feel uncomfortable.

In terms of apologizing, I would just acknowledge that you regret sharing "too much" about your personal life, and you are sorry if it made her uncomfortable.  Keep it simple and brief.  See how she responds.  Don't draw attention to it or make a big deal of it. In the future, if you need to share with someone you know, probably best to do it with someone you really trust whom you know won't break your confidence, or stick to this board, a T, or your partner.  These happenings are all learning experiences for us, and give us opportunities to grow as people.  It's important to allow ourselves to be human, and reflect back on how we handled something to see if we would do anything differently the next time.

As an aside, one thing I did when I started my healing journey two years ago, was invite my H along to my T sessions.  I figured he would benefit from hearing what a professional had to say as well, since he has to deal with my uBPD mom as well.  It's been helpful for both of us.

[wmm]

I feel like my dad is pressuring me to talk to my mother. He texted me today and told me that my mom was going to write me a letter and mail it to me. He told me that she wanted him to call me. She doesn't know yet that I spoke to him on the phone yesterday and I asked him not to tell her (don't know whether or not he will). I told my dad that I wasn't ready to talk to her. I said that I had a lot of personal stress and I couldn't deal with her mood changes. I'm worried that my dad is going to be mad at me and take my mother's side if I don't talk to her soon. I really don't want to talk to her and having him text me about her stresses me out. How should I deal with him? I think that he's going to keep pushing because he doesn't want to deal with my mom being upset. I know he's very stressed out right now, which is not my problem. I don't want to lose him too but I also don't want my mother in my life right now.

[Notwendy]

All families behave as one system in terms of behavior of each person. When there's a dysfunctional family member, the other family members take on certain behaviors in order to keep some sort of balance. They may not be ideally functional ones but they serve a purpose to keep the family in a certain balance.

When one person changes their behavior- in this case appeasing mom to setting boundaries- the entire family can feel out of balance. The first step is for family members to try to get the person to get back into their usual roles to make the family feel comfortable again. If that doesn't work, there may be more action- to the point of possibly expelling the family member.

I went through something similar with my BPD mother, but it was not at the wedding. It was over having boundaries with her over my kids and with her emotional /verbal abuse during my father's illness. I know you don't want to lose the relationship with your father. I didn't either- to the point where I tolerated a lot of my mother's behavior just to stay in his good graces. However, when it came to my kids there was no way I'd allow that.

It should not have to be a choice between your well being and your mother staying happy at the expense of your own peace of mind and your own marriage. It should not have to be a choice between my father's approval and keeping my kids emotionally safe. Unfortunately that was how it is in my family.

My mother got angry and intervened in my relationship with my father. However, the alternative- let her use my kids as emotional caretakers, was unacceptable.

[Flossy]

wmm

I think you need to stick to your guns. You are likely right that your Dad is putting pressure on you to keep the pressure off him.

Tell him sentences starting with "I need you to... or not to..."

Throw in that he might need to go talk to his doctor if he is stressed out, or someone else you can name. Say all you need to say in a calm voice but stay strong. Tell him you feel for him but you need to look after yourself at the moment and cant give a time when things will change.

Ask him not to text you, but only discuss things on the phone regarding your Mum. You find texts highly distressing.

Pick 1-3 definites to state when you talk to him or text him after the last time and stick to those. The most important ones for you. Let the smaller details and the "what ifs" go for now. Just focus on what you are ok with and what you are not. Set some foundations. 1 to 3 each time. You may have to repeat them each contact you have with him as he needs to unlearn his behaviours with triangulating with you and your mother.

You can do this. Dont think too far ahead.

[Notwendy]

A couple of things I learned from interactions with my parents:

Things my father said to me were often dictated by my mother. She would demand he contact me and say X, Y, Z. She also has done this with her caretakers ( she's elderly and has home health).

Sometimes my mother will say something to me and it sounds just like my father. I know that after many years of marriage people can say a lot of common things, but now I also see it as some kind of enmeshment- she mirrors him or vice versa. Even though he was easier to get along with, she was mostly in control.

Every interaction with my father was shared with my mother- emails, she listened in on phone calls, and anything I said to him was shared with her. Know that whatever you text or say or email to your father will also be shared with your mother.

If your father is putting pressure on you to communicate with your mother, it's also likely she's pressuring him to do that. This is Karpman triangle dynamics. Your father is rescuer to your mother.

If your father vents to you, this is also Karpman triangle. In this situation, your father is taking victim perspective. He feels pressured by your mother, and you are expected to be the rescuer in this situation and appease her.

I perceived my father as a victim of my mother's behavior. He would say things like "mother insists you do this". But what about him? He had choices too. He could also say no to her, but he often didn't, because it's really tough to say no to her. In a way, I don't blame him for avoiding her reactions. They are difficult.

Looking at the family dynamics through the lens of the Karpman triangle helped me to understand them and participate less in those roles when I do interact with her.

[beatricex]

hi again wmm,
I echo what others are saying here and this is very hard, I get it.

I had to cut off my Dad when I went no contact with my Mom.  It was very difficult. 

I hold onto lots of memories of us camping and hiking together, this was a "no Mom drama zone" for me, we did not discuss her when my Dad and I (and often other siblings) did this together.  We did not discuss anything, really, just hiked in silence.  My Dad is a Vietnam war veteran and he is a quiet person, he doesn't really care for a lot of babbling talk.

I have memories of my Dad, but no, I found it impossible to cut only her off and not him.  Like others have mentioned, he has marching orders, and she dicatates what he has to do, much of the time.

Good luck and let me know how the situation unfolds, especially what you are doing to cope with the loss of both your parents (at least emotionally) at a time in your life when you really need them (a new marriage!).

Neither of my parents attended my last wedding, in fact, we eloped.

b

[beatricex]

wmm,
Is your heart telling you you should talk to your Mom?  Is it saying you should talk to your Dad?  or, is your heart just hurting a lot these days because neither one of these family members seems capable of getting on board with supporting you on your day - your wedding day.  After weddings comes "new job day"  after that "baby day"  etc etc ...how long will you wait for these people to come around and give you the support you deserve and need? 

I waited about 25 years.  Now I plan s!it without them.  I had a beautiful wedding, in Hawaii.  I married the love of my life.  Did I want my sucky parents there?  No I didn't even think about them I was thinking about ME. 

Somehow some way they would have F'd it up.  It kind of goes w the BPD and NPD. 

When r u getting married and r u still worried about these $&/?  Just asking cause r they going to care one way or another, it's not about THEM.  Rule #1 of narcissism, if it aint about them they don care. I have personally adopted the idea that my marriage is about me and my husband.

There is a saying, we will carry a huge boulder around, we carry it even when others point out "u should drop that rock before it lands on ur toe!"  "That rock sure looks heavy...think u can carry it?"  etc

We carry the boulder until out of exhaustion we drop it.

Sans guilt, sans obligation, and sans regret, I have taken my rock, flown it out into the ocean and dropped it off the coast of California.  It felt so big I probably created a tsunami when I dropped it outta that 747.  yep,'that's the one we flew to Hawaii in.

let it goo...

b

[wmm]

I think I messed up.

My dad texted me and told me that my mom was depressed and threatening suicide. He mentioned my younger brother (who still lives there even though he's 24) in the text. The text about my brother didn't make sense and I freaked out. I was worried that my brother was going to have to deal with my mom again (I'm the parentified older child). My brother is the youngest child. I called 911 and told them my mom was threatening suicide. The police and paramedics went to her house and talked to her. My brother was there. He's mad at me now for calling them. He told me not to talk to him after I asked him if he was ok. My mother threatens suicide a lot and my dad and brother try to smooth it over instead of doing anything else about it. Two years ago, my younger sister, who is really close to my mom, drove two hours from another town to drive my mom to emerge when she was suicidal instead of calling the police or asking my dad to do it. My brother told me before that he had been stressed out dealing with my mom's current mental health issues. I shouldn't have called 911. I had a feeling that she was just threatening it but she did attempt to kill herself once and I saved her life by breaking the belt that was around her neck. None of them have actually seen her try whereas I have so it really freaks me out. I did think twice before calling the police because I was worried my family was going to get mad at me (because that's how they are) and that I was breaking my no contact rule. My dad isn't mad at me. He said he should have called them and that the police helped (she's still at home). He never would have though. My main concern was my brother having to deal with her drama and also my sister getting mad at me for my brother dealing with her drama (she got mad at me before when my brother broke up a fight between my parents). I should have stayed out of it. I still haven't talked to my mom. My dad told me she mailed me a letter to apologize to me. I'm not going to read it. After my brother got mad at me I blocked my brother and younger sister because I was afraid of getting angry messages from them. I know that sounds extreme but I needed to know that I wasn't going to look at my phone and get an angry message. I told my dad not to tell me anything about my mom anymore. I don't think he's going to comply with my request though. He's been pressuring me to talk to my mom. I'm pretty sure it's because he doesn't want to have to deal with my mom's drama.

The saving grace was that my older sister (my dad's daughter) talked to me on the phone afterwards and was quite supportive. She said I could zoom with her and her mom (she's a half-sister) on the weekend. She invited me to her mom's place but it's far away and I'm feeling sick.

Before my older sister replied to my text, I panicked and felt very alone/abandoned. My best friend had to set boundaries for herself and told me she couldn't help me at that moment and would talk to me tomorrow. My partner was going to sleep. He ended up getting up and talking to me for a bit after I asked him to but he wasn't very helpful. My fear of abandonment came back. I'm just kind of ranting I guess. It's just so overwhelming. I'm leaving the school where I work at as an educational assistant and starting a new position on December 2nd  because my contract at my current school will end. Apparently there are some troubled children at the new school that I will be going to but I need the money. Getting through work while dealing with my family problems and pretending like I'm ok has been really hard. I'm so emotionally exhausted. What kind of messed up family gets mad at someone for calling 911 when a parent threatens suicide? We're all just so used to it. It's not normal!

[Flossy]

1. You did not mess up. You did the perfect thing.
2. They will all take turns getting mad at you. No matter what you do.
     (because you are the Scapegoat)
3.  Accept that & expect it.
4. Don't react to it. Don't respond to it.
5. Focus on what you do as right and reasonable.
6. Let them fight it out. Don't participate.
7. Practise, practise, practise.
8. When the s### hits the fan have a list of things to do to look after     yourself.

Write this out and stick it on your wall. You are falling back into the patterns of self-blame they taught you. Practise unlearning it. Because it's bull and manipulation.

Maybe if they get a few visits from the police and ambulance they will stop throwing their drama at you. You did the perfect thing. Absolutely perfect.

PS They have caused you to constantly explain yourself. This is normal behaviour for traumatised people, but futile and hopeless and exhausting. Stop explaining to them. They will learn to accept that they cant manipulate you any more when they no longer get fuel to punish you with. They will have to deal with the drama they cause. They might take 5-10 years of blaming you. That is normal for these messed up people. If/when one or more come back to you, you will have had time to grow and get strong.If you stay in this dynamic your health will suffer permanently. I know it's hard but if you lose them all for a while, if any of them are worth it, such as your brother, he will come back in years to come. Without the ####. You can do this.

[lm1109]

Write this down. Put it on your wall or your mirror. Anywhere you will see it daily.

This is your bottom line. This is your conclusion. It is justified. You have the right. You have done enough. You have had enough. You are reasonable and sensible.

You need to say this to yourself every day several times a day. Believe it and know we have all read what she has done and will do to you forever.

This is amazing advice. I'm in and have been in a very similar situation with a BPD mother and I've also come to the the conclusion that I've had enough. That I deserve peace. It is my bottom line as well. I've done enough, I'm sure we all have. I sacrificed so many years of my life thinking that it was my responsibility to save my parents, literally keep them alive. I have a much bigger purpose, and so do you wmm. We all DESERVE to be happy.
I know I'm late in this thread and I haven't posted in years(until a few days ago), but this has been a place I've come to feel less alone and read advice for so many years, even when I didn't have the words or energy to post myself. The wealth of knowledge here is inspiring. I hope that everyone who shares advice and chooses to lift others up here regularly understands that you're helping so many more than just the poster.
Wmm, I've read a few of you're threads these past few days and I wish you all the best. I hope "you've had enough" like me. Putting all of our energy into bottomless pits serves no one. Shifting that energy to yourself, loving yourself, and choosing yourself, seems to be the only way out of the hell of living with bpds. Now I'm about to put a post it note up to remind myself as well! Sending everyone here lots of love

[Flossy]

IM1109
Great! Wonderful! Use whatever works best to put reminders where you will see it daily. These new thoughts need reinforcing and repeating by putting them into our brains over and over until they replace the old thoughts and twisted training these people gave us.
My very best wishes to you. x

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
I am sending you some good vibes, and wishing you well at your new job this week. 

((wmm)

Forget the past.  It's easy to say this, and trust me I know because I still wake up with anxiety about stuff I've done (perceive I have done wrong) in the middle of the night.  It must be triggered by dreams or nightmares to be more specific.

I get it.

We have just been programmed, that's all, we are not wrong or bad to react to our BPD mothers like we do.  We are so used to being judged, and we are so willing to say "I screwed up" I know, but you haven't.

Give yourself permission to have these feelings, let the anxiety wash over you, then let it go.  That's what to do with it, let it go.  It's OK.  It's going to be OK.

b

[Flossy]

Beatrix x
Maybe best not to include the sentence "forget the past". That is demeaning, devaluating and basically impossible.

The rest of your advise is great. But, as you know, most of us have severe trauma at the least or PTSD from dealing with this.

It's more realistic and helpful to recognise that as something the OP is going to have to learn about and deal with every single day of the rest of their life.

 None of us will ever forget the past and we will be forever changed by it.

It is do-able and that is a blessing.

[Couscous]

Wmm,

Perhaps an option would be for you to go on a temporary relationship hiatus with your mother, which you could just keep extending as needed. That’s what I did just over a year ago, and it was so much easier for me to do that than officially going NC with her — which I could not imagine doing at the time. I also went no contact with one uBPD brother and low contact with my enabler sister at about the same time. Then I added my other uBPD brother to the NC list, and lastly, I have just gone very low contact and have enacted an emotional cut-off with my enabler father. I seemed to have needed a period of gradually weaning myself off of frequent contact with my family, and going very low contact has made such a difference in my life.

[beatricex]

Just to clarify, my comment to "forget the past" was in regards to your statement wmm, where you said "I think I messed up."  Not in general to your past (Flossy).  Sorry if that sounded dismissive, but what I meant was try not to ruminate on this.

wmm, you also said "What kind of messed up family gets mad at someone for calling 911 when a parent threatens suicide?"  exactly

Ruminating, or thinking about how we've done something wrong, over and over to the point of it causing us anxiety does not help (I don't think).  There are techniques I learned by going through therapy to actually stop this destructive thought process.  Tapping is one, happy to share more if you're interested.

b

[zachira]

How do we heal from the past? I found EMDR therapy extremely helpful in letting go of past events that upset me and in moving forward. Yes, it is the past and we will always be overwhelmed at times by being abused and in the ways our lives have been permanently impacted. For example, I have never had any children and it is too late now. The journey of healing is a long and rewarding one. You have just begun to own your feelings and let your family members own theirs. Your impaired family members do not likely have the capacity to own the feelings that they dump on you. With time and different ways you find to heal, you will become more able to deal with the feelings that seem overwhelming in the moment, and overall will continue to feel more grounded and rewarded for choosing to make self care a number one priority.  

[wmm]

This group has helped me so much.

My father texted me again updating me about my mom. I've told him about four times not to talk to me about my mom but he keeps doing it. What should I do?

[Couscous]

This group has helped me so much.

My father texted me again updating me about my mom. I've told him about four times not to talk to me about my mom but he keeps doing it. What should I do?

I had to block my dad on my phone for a couple of weeks and explained that I just wasn’t in the mood to text or talk about the “hot topic”, although he could still contact me via email. I also explained that I was no longer willing to discuss the “hot topic” with him because this matter was between me and uBPD brother. He then sneakily called me from another phone number that I didn’t recognize, and I made the mistake of answering. Fortunately the call was cut short, so I followed up over text (I really should have emailed), and very firmly explained that his “peacemaking” was making the situation worse, and that I would no longer discuss the subject with him. He then lashed out at me and was “hurt” because I didn’t appreciate his efforts, but I didn’t back down. I haven’t heard from in for over a week now, so I think that did the trick. Good luck to you.

[wmm]

I got a phone call from one of my mother's doctors saying that she didn't show up for her appointment. My mother must have given them my number in order to get attention from me. This is a new doctor so this would have been a recent thing. I texted my father and asked him why she had given the doctor my number. I also told him that I start a new position tomorrow and that I was too stressed out to handle her problems. I'm starting to think that my mother is trying to lose weight on purpose in order to get attention. I wonder this because she made up that my sister had covid and was in the ICU even though my sister didn't have covid. I just want to be left alone. I'm very stressed about starting my new position tomorrow and having to leave my old job (I was covering a maternity leave). My father doesn't know about my mother's lie about my sister. I'm guessing I shouldn't say anything and stay out of it but I want her to stop and I want my dad to stop texting me about her health. He told me they said she didn't have cancer after I told him to stop telling me about my mom many times. What should I do? I was thinking about blocking my dad but I was also hoping he could deal with my mom.

[Flossy]

...wmm
We can get stuck in "thinking and hoping" until we are exhausted. Which you already are.

Is it time to "do" = take action. Block your father for a set period of time?
Highlight your calendar for a date to unblock him?
Set up an alert in your phone to unblock him?

Let him know by text that you are blocking his number (better than saying blocking him) for a short while and that your phone (better than saying you) will be available for texting or talking again on ...(set date).

Make it a week or two weeks?

I promise you will find strength in taking action after putting off blocking him for weeks now. I promise you are not going to "get into trouble".  The worst they can do is tell you  that you are bad and we all know you are not.
So you can tell them that is just simply BS and they need to get used to being blocked if they dont behave.

Give it a try? You can do it. It will only be scary the first time. You will get better at it and stronger each time.

[wmm]

Flossy, this is a good suggestion. I'll do this. My father had no idea that my mother had put my number as a contact and that she had missed her appointment. I blocked the doctor's number. She's seeing many specialists and I'm worried that she put me as a contact for other ones too. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I should deal with this or if I should. It was triggering get the phone call and I don't want to get anymore. I'm certain that she did this on purpose because she didn't put my father as a contact even though he lives with her. Should I call her doctor's office and ask them to take me off as a contact. I would but I'm not sure if this is getting too involved with her and letting her know that she's bothering me. I just don't want to receive these phone calls anymore. What should I do?

[zachira]

You really can't prevent your mother from giving your phone number out as a contact or probably finding out a new number if you decide to change it. It is a big challenge to limit how much space your family members rent in your head when they are clearly using Fog to make you feel guilty for setting healthy necessary boundaries with them. When you get phone calls about your mother, you can choose to block the calls and/or tell the person not to call you. It might work best to just block these numbers, as the more interactions you have with the people who are involved with your mother, the more triggering it can be. Probably one of the most painful parts of dealing with dysfunctional family members is how we have to set boundaries with people who are generally nice people and who aren't likely to understand why we can't be involved with our parent's care.

[beatricex]

wmm,
This is the worst, being "made" to feel like you "must" be responsible for your mother.   I have had a lot of grief myself over Mom's health issues in the past year.  Thing is I'm now having my own which she doesn't give a flying fig about, so why should I care about hers?  Most disturbing is that my cortisol is now high, from Stress - no kidding.  No one ever told me that years of trauma and drama and worry would have a physical impact on my body.  But, it does.  If you are younger this might not concen you (and it didn't I, I thought I was invincible when I was younger), but then there's this actual real physical manifestation of the anxiety now that I can't ignore.

I am at the point of NC with both my parents.

The phone call from her doctor reminded me of a similiar thing that happened to my husband and I.  Our number is on their dog's tag.  A few times in the past year we got panicked phone calls "we have your dog, come get her PLEASE?"  My husband just blocked those people, who are likely her neighbors.  Their number is ALSO on the tag.  So, your mom has another number on her paperwork, most likely.  You are not the only person who Must be responsible for her. 

Oh and a few times my mom has also mentioned that the dog will likely be "shot" by the next door neighbor who is a rancher.  The dog apparently likes to chase his cows.  Again, not my problem, do they know what a tie out is?  This is my Dad's dog and he loves it by the way.  At times I have wondered if my mom isn't just setting it free...

b

[Methuen]

Hopefully another Dr does not call you,  but if they do, you could kindly explain that your mother did not discuss you being a contact with you, and you are not available to do that.  Then they will know to take you off the contact  list.

Is it possible that one reason  your dad told you your mom doesn’t have cancer, is to remove that piece of her drama from the plate?  One less thing for you to worry or feel guilty about?  

It sounds  to me like your dad doesn’t understand the true level of your distress  surrounding your mom.  You truly aren’t well wnough to hear anything about her right now.  You just need to look after your own well being.

I hope your first day at your new job tomorrow is ok.  Remember that it will take time to get to know these new kids, and to learn what strategies work.  I’m hoping there will be a team of people including the resource teacher and school counsellor as well as district support staff to support you in your new role.  You don’t have to do it all on your own.  Hopefully there is a team.  Let us know how it goes.

[wmm]

The thing about cortisol is really interesting. How do you get that tested? Mine is probably really high. I was diagnosed with anxiety but my mom is my biggest trigger. I've noticed that when I forget about her and everything my anxiety doesn't really seem to be there so I think it's more CPTSD. My father messaged me asking how my day was and once I responded he told me to talk to my mother and that she was planning on coming to my place soon. I told him I would lock the door and call the cops if she came and harassed me. My first day was ok. The staff seen pretty miserable but the kids are nice. I miss the staff at my old school. They were so nice and supportive. Luckily a lot of them contacted me today asking how my day was. I'm not at a level of closeness where I can talk to them about my family though. I'm going to block my dad now. Yesterday he seemed better so I didn't bother. I'm worried about my mom coming to my place now though.

[Flossy]

I'm going to block my dad now. Yesterday he seemed better so I didn't bother. I'm worried about my mom coming to my place now though.

Good. Perfect.

The worry and anxiety is because your body is producing a lot of adrenaline. You may have C PTSD and this is caused by/causes adrenaline bursts.

First up, you need to burn any adrenaline that has been burst into your blood. You do this by either running or using the big muscles in your body if you cant face running. So even sitting on a chair and squeezing your thigh muscles over and over until you feel yourself relax will burn the adrenaline.

Secondly, if you ever talk to your doctor about PTSD or anxiety you need to discuss what is called an SNRI. This is a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor, not an SSRI which is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. SNRI's work better for PTSD and adrenaline problems. Your doctor will decide if that is right for you.

Make a plan and put it near the door for if your mum does ever turn up. Plans written and put up where you need them will give you the knowledge that you have steps prepared that you have thought of when it wasn't an emergency. Just a short note with bullet points on what you will do and what you wont do.

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
Thanks for checking back about your first day on the new job.  You sound more centered today.

I use the home stress test made by everlywell.com

Basically, they send you the kit, you collect some saliva samples 4 times a day, send it back and get results in a week or so.

I actually was just checking my hormone levels, the cortisol was part of the panel for that (I think it's called the women's health test).  I have also used this home kit to check my thyroid levels and compared it to what my Dr's office finds.  It's spot on as far as I can tell.  BTW, I think if you asked your Dr. to check your cortisol, cause you suspected it might be high, I'm sure they would do it too.

Ok, well good luck with your Dad and whatever you decide, no decision has to be permanent, so you can always make a different decision later.   Take care of you this week.
b

[wmm]

My mother just came here and I freaked out and called the police. I'm lying in bed with a blanket of me because I'm in shock and really cold.

I was in my car, which is at the back of the house, because I had just gotten back from doing errands. I had not idea that my mom  was coming. She drove up and parked right beside me. I dialed 911 because I was afraid and didn't know if she was going to be mad but then hung up right away. She wasn't yelling at me. She brought me starbucks, a plant, and a letter. She asked me to roll down the window and talk to her. I told her I wouldn't and tried to not look at her. I locked my door. She asked me to tell her when I was going to talk to her and I told her I didn't know. I told her she had to leave. My mom kept repeating that I was being so cruel and that my dad was upset. She didn't say it in a mean voice. She said it like she was sad, which I realize now was very manipulative. I tried starting my car but it wouldn't start. She walked over to my door and left the plant, a note, and a letter in front of my door. My fiance is going to get rid of it. The police called me back and said they would have to come because I called. I told them it wasn't necessary but they told me they had to. I became so afraid that my family was going to get mad at me for calling the police and that my mom would get upset. I was finally able to start my car and drove away to the front of the house beside me. The police told me I couldn't drive any further because they were coming to talk to me. I stayed on the phone with the police and looked behind me to see when my mom's car drove out. Eventually, I saw her car and she left. The operator asked me to describe my mom's car. Two police cars came. One stopped in front of me and they asked me what happened. The other one drove after my mom and stopped her on the road. I started crying because I didn't want my mom to know that I had called the police because she would make me look bad to the rest of my family. I texted my dad and told him what happened so that he would hear my side of the story. He didn't get back to me and I've blocked him now until I calm down. The police asked me if she had ever been violent with me and I lied and said no. I said no because I didn't want my family to find out I had said that and get more mad at me. I realize now that that was the wrong thing to do. I told the officer that she was emotionally and psychologically abusive and that she had been violent with other people. He told me that it sounded like something that I needed to talk to my mother and father about to figure out. I told him that I just wanted her to leave me alone. The officer ended up leaving. My fiance luckily came home soon after that (he had gone camping the night before). I stayed in my car for a while because I was afraid to come out even though logically I knew that she was gone. I didn't feel safe. My fiance sat in the car for a bit with me while I cried. Eventually, I got out with him and went into the house and locked the door. I was so afraid while I walked from my car to my home. My feet are cold, I have cramps in my stomach, I'm thirsty, and I have a headache. I know I'm in shock. I don't know what to do with myself. I just want her to leave me alone. Her voice and abusive words are engrained in my head. I kept thinking that I shouldn't act like the victim because that's what my mom used to say to me when I would get upset. I've done so many years of therapy but she still gets in my head. Any ideas for what I should do? My mother is still blocked on my phone. I blocked my younger sister and my father. My brother is already blocked because he got mad at me before for calling 911 when my mother was suicidal. I just want her to leave me alone. I don't know what to do to get her to stop. How did you guys explain to your families that you were going no contact? I haven't actually told them that. I've just said that I'm not ready to talk and I don't know when I will be. I feel sick to my stomach.

[Couscous]

Ugh…your mom completely ambushed you there. Your reaction is completely to be expected. I hope you can find something to do to cheer yourself a up a bit and to take your mind of off things — like watching a comedy show, for instance.

It really sounds like you could use some additional support right now. I encourage you to seek out the help of a therapist who has experience with narcissistic abuse, or domestic abuse and complex trauma or PTSD. Someone who really gets what you’re dealing with and who can help you with setting limits on contact with your family. You may want to check out Dr Karyl Mcbride’s website for her referral list of therapists who have done her training and see if there are any in your area.

Hope you are able to feel bit better soon! 

[wmm]

For those of you who went NC what did you say to your family members to let them know and did you tell it to the pwbpd and if not who?

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
The first time I went no contact I did let my parents know why in an email.  I said that I did not want to be the favorite because implied is I would have to gang up on others in the family and I could not do that.  This was after a Christmas where my mom sent out what I call  the F--k you letter.  It actually started out "F--k you all!"  It was sent to all of us adult kids and it detailed why she was upset with everyone (they didn't have good excuses for missing Christmas at her house) except me.  I apparently had a good excuse.  Believe it or not, I was not planning on going to Mom's for Christmas either, but I believe I was stuck in New Hampshire for work over Christmas that year, so because I was physically not in her state and working, I had a "good excuse."

That was 14 years ago.  I stayed no contact for 7 years.

7 years ago, I resumed contact.  I am now quietly going no contact again.  I did speak to my oldest brother (8 hour phone call, mostly not about our mother but how he hates his wife), so she has an idea.  The convo with my brother, I initiated.  I said I don't want to take care of Mom when she's old (he assured me he would do it, which is hilarious cause he doesn't even answer his phone a lot of times and he's not physically close to where she lives). I also did text her to stop texting and emailing my husband and I that same week after a love bombing spurt.  Then my husband and I both blocked her on phones and email.  I didn't tell her I was blocking her, I just did it.  I blocked my oldest brother, my Dad and her actually, back in April.  The blocks only last 3 mos (Verizon) so I have to remember to reblock them every 3 mos.  Email, they are permanently blocked unless we remove it.  She came to the house once, with her dog and left a note from the both of them as if nothing ever happened.  I have 5 siblings and an uncle who talks to my Dad regularly (I am close to him too), so in an emergency, the others can get ahold of me.  Also, this doesn't stop them from just creating a new email address.
 

You can keep your reasons as short or as long as you feel necessary.  This article helped me a little.
https://queenbeeing.com/acon-explain-went-no-contact-narcissistic-parent/


b

[zachira]

I regret giving any kind of detailed explanation to family members as to why I went no contact or why I am considering going no contact with all of them. Their wiring is just so dysfunctional. They are all wired to protect the golden children and to blame the scapegoats. At some point, you might want to explore if any kind of restraining order would make things easier for you or just make things worse.

[Couscous]

I thought this video had some pretty good suggestions on how to go no contact: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olqyOZnFRWM

[Notwendy]

It's not "normal" for adult children to keep a distance from their parents ( and our family dynamics are not normal). For my mother, there has to be some reason why her children don't spend more time with her. On her part, it can't possibly be anything to do with her, so she has to come up with something about me.

I have been described as a terrible child who broke her parents' heart by not visiting. In her words "not visiting at all" but that's not true. I did visit, but they were abusive to me during those times and so I had to keep a distance. Since this can't be her fault, it has to be mine.

It's scary what your mother did but one attempt is to get things back to where they were- get you back into your role. If you refuse, it might escalate or they may disconnect from you. Regardless, their story may be to blame it on you. This isn't easy- I think I have tried to be a good daughter, but that's not the way my BPD mother sees it.

[Couscous]

Notwendy,

While it may not be common to for adult children to distance themselves from their parents, it’s not completely unnatural. Even chimpanzees are known to challenge the alpha chimp, with violent consequences. So I guess we’re lucky that we’re not chimpanzees. 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22229682-600-only-known-chimp-war-reveals-how-societies-splinter/

[Notwendy]

Yes, glad to not be a chimpanzee but they get to eat bananas all day and throw their dung at people looking at them in the Zoo, so maybe it's not so bad for them. 

[beatricex]

great video Couscous!

As far as what fallout you can expect.  All of the below happened to me:

1.  My BPD mother turned my oldest brother against me in the time I was no contact (7 years)
2.  I was not aware that my mom took that time to turn him and probably others against me until recently - boy was that an interesting outcome of my 8 hour phone call with my oldest brother, who I thought was neutral.  Nope, he's 100% team dysfunctional mommy (he actual thinks it's my Dad with the PD)
3.  Prepare for your mom to say things like this to anyone who knows you or the family "we don't know WHERE she is...she's estranged from the family" (implying of course that it's me with the mental illness).  BTW, Mom sent me birthday cards at my home address for those 7 years.  It was a bit of a stretch to say she didn't know where I was.  I got a facebook message from my childhood friend and my mom's ex best friend.  Both confirmed that the slandering of me behind my back was real and intense for those years.
4.  My uncle (not my Mom's brother, my Dad's) responded to my stating I was abused by my parents with hostility toward me.  For this reason, maybe don't mention "abuse" at all. 

I like neutral statements like "our relationship is toxic".  See how that doesn't cast blame?  Not "mom is mentally ill."  When I honestly told my oldest brother why I thought my Mom is mentally ill, listing all the reasons, he said pretty visciously "well...I Think ALL the people in this family are mentally ill - the Women anyway."  ouch

OK, so now I know how he feels.  Guess I should add that he said that about me (I'm mentally ill) after he stated several times he felt like killing his wife.  Wow.  And I'm the mentally ill one?  I had to talk him off that cliff in our convo, I suggested "hey, how bout just get divorced?  you don't have to kill anyone"  This is why my oldest brother is also cut off, not just my BPD mom and enabling Dad.

Don't let them gaslight you, and stay strong wmm.  Let us know what you decide to do, if you like.

b

[Flossy]

wmm
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=examples+of+a+no+contact+letter&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Examples of how to write a No Contact letter.

Read a few and choose the one that fits best with you. Email it or text it. No extra explanation. Send a copy to the rest of your family. Do not explain further with them.

Eg: Keep it simple. Any other information you provide will be used against you. These people do not have. your best interests at heart. They do not think the way you think.

So do it this way and it will protect you the most.

Best wishes.

[wmm]

Thank you. This is all very helpful.

My sister contacted me this morning saying that my mom wanted to know if still wanted the wedding dress or not. I told her I didn't. This caught me off guard but I thought I got over it. I know that my mom did not need to ask me that. She knew that I didn't want it but she was just trying to contact me. I asked my sister not to relay any messages from my mother to me and then told her I needed some space and then blocked her. I told her I wasn't mad at her. I then went to do a course for my work and they played a very emotional video. The video was about how people can go through heavy things that others don't know about. I related to this very much, as I'm sure all of you could too. I didn't know that the course was going to be emotionally intensive. It completely caught me off guard and I had to leave because I felt like I was going to have a panic attack/break down in tears.

I like this NC letter but I'm not sure if threatening the legal action is too much.

"Date

To: John and Jane Doe
From: Mary Doe Smith and Robert Smith
Subject: No Contact

This letter is to inform you that as of the date noted above, we direct you to cease all forms of contact with us and with our children, Sissie and Bubba Smith. This includes telephone calls, texts, email or other electronic communication, letters, cards, gifts, and personal visits. This prohibition also includes messages of any kind delivered via other persons, such as other family members or friends.

We are prepared to take legal action if you refuse to respect our wishes for no contact with you.

Signed
            Mary Doe Smith
            Robert Smith"

I was thinking of sending it by email so that I have proof that she received it.

My mother has taken other people to court and has a lot of money to be able to hire a good lawyer. For example, she recently was going to take a manager of a restaurant to court because he said she couldn't have an extra napkin even though she had a tremor. She became upset with him and then he called her an "entitled old white woman". She contacted the human rights tribunal and they said she had a case against him based on discrimination due to disability, race, and age. I'm worried that if I threaten legal action she'd challenge me on it. At the same time, I want the police to take me seriously if she tries to come to my house again. Do you think threatening legal action is too much and did any of you threaten legal action?

[beatricex]

great questions wmm, and I'm glad you're thinking this out.

A few years back, when replying all to emails (I have a large family) I started adding the disclaimer "if you don't like what I'm saying then Block me."

I have no idea if this would hold up in court, but like you I worried about getting sued too.  Ever watch Judge Judy?  There's plenty of family spats that end up in court.  I like how she throws out all the "harrassement" ones though.

I never threatened any legal consequences because my BPD Mom is super good at working a system.  As an example, she gets free stuff from companies all the time.  If your mom is like mine, they have plenty of time to persue this (we don't), they have the energy to sustain a protracted fight (we don't), and they're sneakier.  Before going to battle, think about what "winning" would look like.

With my brother, it's obviously a no brainer, winning would mean he starts talking about killing me instead of his wife.  Not worth it.  Not going there, my goal is peace not to start a war with my estranged family.  In the conversation we had about our mother, I simply listened (without agreeing to what he said which was basically she's the best mom ever) and replied "Well, I guess I had a different experience than you." 

After the comments my brother made I also posted here about it, and someone suggested I read "the Gift of Fear" which I did.  That helped me immensely.  I think leaving it alone is sometimes the best option because as soon as one becomes the aggressor, it can really set an emotionally unstable person off, that otherwise would have been relatively harmless.

BTW, my Mom has plenty of flying monkeys other than my oldest brother.  That is just the best example I can point to and say "Ok, maybe it's time to walk away from this Entire family, because it's not worth it to me to "win".'

b

[wmm]

Beatricex, I completely get you.

At this point I'm not sure if sending another email or letter would be worth it. The only reason I would do it would be for legal reasons in case I need to contact the police again. I already told her over email and when she came here that I wasn't ready to talk to her and I needed space. There is also now a police record that she came to my house even though I had told her not to. I don't know how much they actually documented though because they didn't seem to think it was a big deal. I'm so emotionally exhausted that I'm not sure if I can even go to work tomorrow. I'm worried that she'll send me more angry messages and maybe try to show up again if I send her another email. At the same time, I want legal protection. I was thinking about contacting her therapist (she used to be my therapist too so I have her contact information) and telling her not to encourage my mom to reach out to me again because I was going no contact. Apparently she thought my mom's idea to come here was a good idea and encouraged her to do it. Any thoughts?

[Couscous]

Yikes…your mom’s therapist used to be your therapist? Were you ever seen conjointly by this therapist? If not, then this would most likely constitute a conflict of interest on the part of the therapist, especially considering the nature of your relationship with your mother.

https://www.cphins.com/treating-multiple-members-of-a-family-conflicts/

[wmm]

Couscous, she was originally the family therapist. I stopped seeing her because she was also seeing my sister at the time and broke confidentiality between us.

[Couscous]

Wmm, yeah….in my experience with family therapy it became quite obvious that the therapist was in way over her head and she simply did not understand BPD family dynamics. I dropped out after the second session after having nightmares and anxiety lasting for days after each session.

[Flossy]

wmm
I think dont include that sentence about legal action.

Perhaps say "the police will be notified". Keep it simple like that.

Talking about legal action is likely to incite her to take action and she will enjoy the chance to show her power.

I dont think she would enjoy the prospect of having her name on police record.

[Notwendy]

Another approach would be silence.

In my situation and email like that would be inciteful. My BPD mother tends to see boundaries as a challenge. I didn't go NC, I went MC- medium chill, which is to not be emotionally reactive.

Any correspondence I had with my parents was printed off and saved in a folder- and my mother would bring it up at times. When my father was ill, I was concerned about his welfare and spoke to his doctor about my mother. His medical providers assumed he was being cared for by my mother. I felt he needed more home care support.

The family rule was to not reveal anything about my mother to anyone. My dad's doctor spoke to him about it, and my father got angry at me. I then emailed him back that I would back off. They took that as me turning my back on my dad. My mother kept that email in a folder to bring up when she was angry at me.

Yes, I have some contact with her, but in terms of what we discuss, I don't discuss anything personal with her. I can talk about the news, the weather, something like "grandchild's soccer team won this weekend".

Reacting to my mother is fuel for the drama. Stating a boundary to her is an invitation for her to push and she does. One way to look at your parents' reactions is that they are escalating in order to bring you back into the family pattern. These behaviors have worked for them, they are the main tools they have to relate to you. They are going to do what worked for them in the past, until they realize these behaviors don't work.

What is the physical threat to your mother showing up? If there is one, then a restraining order might be a consideration. Yes, the emotional consequences are also something to consider. I am not minimizing the impact of her putting up your sister to ask you about the wedding dress. It's upsetting, but in the grand scheme of things, replying with a no contact email might cause even more drama than you want. Another option is to not react at all. You've sent the message you don't want the dress. I would expect your mother will try to contact you again, but responding with no drama is also an option.

You have made the decision to stop contact now, and one way is to be silent with your responses or short and non emotional ones. You could send an email but in my situation, an email like that would be taken out of context and create a lot of drama.

Boundaries are not something we place on another person. We can't control someone else. Saying  "don't talk to me" would not work because the response would be "how dare you tell me what to do" and a reaction on her part. Boundaries are our responses. Once my mother started yelling at me when I was visiting. I said nothing, and left, just like that. If she's on the phone and starts, then I say "I need to go, talk to you later" and hang up. Ignoring, not reacting is a boundary.

[wmm]

These are some good points.

I was already planning on sending the no contact email before my sister relayed the message to me. I think what really happened was that I wasn't over the drama that occurred on the weekend and the heavy discussion and video I watched at the course brought it all up. I was probably just getting over the shock of the event. I attended an ACA (adult children of alcoholics) meeting last night when my therapist had to cancel our appointment. It was very helpful. I'm not religious but I know there are secular ones too, just not as many. I watched a video that someone posted in a comment about writing a no contact letter. The man in the video warned that the people weren't going to respect the boundaries and were going to try to reach out. I was only thinking about sending a no contact letter so that I had something to show the police if I had to call them again. I'm going to wait for now. I already told her in another email that I needed more space, it was just more casual and the police have the record that she came to my house unwelcomed last time.

It's sad, but I think I'll only unblock my other family members on weekends or over the holidays when I'm up to it, and only if they don't bug me about my mother.

I'm not mentally strong enough yet to be in some contact with her. Every interaction I have with her makes me really anxious, even if it's positive. Just hearing her voice on the phone makes me anxious. I reached out to a therapist that specializes in CPTSD and I'll try to do some work with her before I talk to my mother. In general, I've been doing a lot better and I've been enjoying my days more when I'm not in contact with her or reminded of her.

[Notwendy]

I attend ACA meetings too. I think the program is very helpful. The original Blue Book (AA) that all 12 step programs evolved from was written by Christians, but you are correct- it is adaptable to all belief systems and non religious as well. "Higher Power" can be what we want it to be. It helps us understand that we can't control other people and also that it is OK to ask for help and not try to control everything on our own.

It's OK to take care of you and not put yourself through the stress of contact with her at the moment.

[Couscous]

It has been almost two years since I “divorced” my brother and his codependent agents still have not got the point that I am not going to reconcile with him. They are always coming up with sneaky ways to attempt to bring me back into the family fold. They never give up.

Which is why I now understand the purpose for no contact. It’s not to prevent your family from contacting you; it’s to prevent you from responding. It’s setting limits on yourself, not on other people.

[beatricex]

There are currently two different threads with people kicking around the idea of a restraining order against a parent, or at least getting the police backup in case one should be needed.

I have a little bit of experience with my BPD mom calling the police on me.  I have more experience than I care to admit with the police advising I file a restraining order on someone.  I once got pulled out of work by a detective because someone I knew (not a romantic interest) filed a false police report about me.  As a result, the detective's strong suggestion was that I go down to the courthouse immediately and file a restraining order; more specifically, in the state I lived in it was called an Order of Protection.  I think the laws and the way they work in different states is very different.

Anyway, the entire thing was very disturbing because the person I filed against was not a US citizen (they were from Mexico), and this Order of Protection allowed them (the police) to search this man without cause and then to deport him, which is what happened.

I guess maybe they felt he was a threat to me?

In all cases where I was involved in restraining orders, the police felt it could be a volatile situation, real physical bodily harm might occur (btw, you have to prove this to a judge for it to be granted, which means going in front of the judge, it's not automatic)...

I think this might be hard to prove in the case of a Mom?  Unless you have a police report where she hit you? 

I'm not sure "my Mom is freaking me out" is the situation where the restraining order is intended.  I believe (could be wrong) it's intended to deal with a freaky stalker situation or physical abuse situations?  Believe it or not, I have had that too, a stalker.  Starting at age 16 and ending around age 21.  In that case, a restraining order against this teenager who was likely trying to either rape and/or kill me really made me feel a lot better.  But, for my BPD Mom?  uh, no.

I think this would just have exacerbated my stress.  A BIFF letter?  That is the way to go for me.  I think.  I do have a fear of looking ridiculous to the police, maybe even a bit of cPTSD cause Mom called the police on ME (when I was 17).  All that happened was I sat in the back of a cop car in front of my house for a bit, cried, and the officer consoled me.  After awhile, he let me go back inside.  Good times!  ( NOT)

A whole nother discussion is things BPD moms do because they're not good at parenting.  Like use police to control their kids.  ugh

b

[wmm]

Has anyone had to take time off from work due to stress from a bpd family member? I'm absolutely exhausted and the days feel so long. I'm having trouble not breaking down into tears. I have no one to talk to at my new job. I have the next two weeks off so I'm trying to last the week but it's really hard.

[Methuen]

Good for you for taking a short term leave of absence.  

What you have been through is intense, and seems both acute and chronic.  

I have not been on LOA’s because of my mom, but I have been on LOA’s for other reasons.  

Are you seeing a Dr?  The crying may be a symptom of depression from all this …and medication such as antidepressant could be one part of recovery.  I’m not a doc, but would recommend you share what you are experiencing with your doc.  S/he will offer options to help you.

I can’t remember if you are seeing a T?  Most school districts (I think you work in a classroom as an EA…do I have that right?) offer EAP (employee assistance plans) for counseling.  If you aren’t already accessing these services, they too can help.  

You’ve been through  so much wmm.  If you are at the breaking point, and can’t get through the week, can you take sick days?  It would be best to avoid breaking  down in front of the kids.  People at your new school haven’t had the chance to really get to know you yet, and the kids won’t understand, so if possible, try to avoid being  vulnerable in front of them…depending on the kids, and how strong you are feeling.

It sounds like maybe it’s time to focus on you, and your recovery?  You’ve started that by taking two weeks off.  Maybe with your doctor, explore whether s/he thinks two weeks will be enough?  If not, long term leave of absence might also be available with a doctors medical note.  

Sometimes work can be a healthy distraction from other problems, but if that is not the case, or if it is adding to your  stress, then see your doc for a medical certificate to give you time off work. This will also give you time and space to come up with a longer term plan.  

I hope today gets a little better for you.

Hugs

[zachira]

I have taken a lot of time off from work due to C-PTSD because of all the abuse I have suffered from my immediate and extended families. My heart goes out to you, knowing how painful it is to spend large periods of time overwhelmed by unbearable feelings. The challenge for me has always been to know when I am too overwhelmed to deal with the feelings, need to shut them down or when I need to process these feelings with somebody I can trust to be empathetic and caring. The biggest help for me has been to learn how to be present in the moment so no feeling becomes too overwhelming. I try to meditate every day for at least an hour. When I first started therapy, I could not be present with my feelings without becoming completely overwhelmed, sometimes disassociating for days after the end of my session. EMDR was eventually my salvation once the therapist increased my session to 1 1/2 hours so I could quiet down the overwhelming feelings before I left. Right now I am reading the autobiography of Gisele Bundchen who was on the verge of suicide because of the years she spent working herself to death. It is a positive book,  a real enjoyable read, and refreshing because she had warm caring parents and has made so many life affirming choices. Take the time you need to heal, and you will start to feel better. When we face how overwhelmed we are can be the most challenging yet it is often the point where we pivot to healing as our main focus.

[wmm]

Methuen, I'm on an SSRI for general anxiety disorder. It's hard for me to tell if the day to day anxiety is getting better due to upping my dose or going no contact with my mother, could be a combination of both. There's two reasons why I'm trying to last the rest of the week. The first one is because I currently only have a temporary position and I need my principal as a reference in order to get a permanent position. The second one is because I'm trying to prove to myself that I can and won't give up. This is probably the perfectionist in me and the people pleaser part.

Working with the children can also be a good distraction. When I work with them I concentrate on their needs and don't think about my problems as much. It's when I have a break or at the end of the day that it gets worse. A lot of school staff seem to be having difficulty getting through the days right now and are awaiting eagerly for the break.

Zachira, did emdr work for you? Is it something that I would have to keep doing for life or until I process my issues? I just talked to a therapist yesterday who does cognitive processing therapy (CPT). It's a type of CBT for PTSD. I know someone who swears by it. The thing is their trrauma is in the past. I don't know if it will work of I still have to deal with my mother. My main goal is to not be afraid of her anymore.

[zachira]

EMDR worked once my sessions were extended to 1 1/2 hours which is the length of time the sessions are supposed to be. EMDR taught me to be present in the moment, and has given me the ability to do meditation and other healing modalities on my own. My therapist stopped doing EMDR because most of her clients could not handle being present in the moment, and this is true of many other therapists. It was terribly traumatizing to have to stay present with my therapist while doing EMDR yet it was well worth the pain and discomfort as it is what really made the difference in being able to start to heal.

[Methuen]

You are doing the right things for yourself wmm.  I want to encourage you and say it is going to get better.  This rough patch is temporary…it won’t be like this forever (I say this because in my rough patches it feels like it will last forever).

Have you been on the. SSRI for at least 3 (or even 6) weeks?  They take a while to start working…

Awesome that you are seeing a T.  Is your T a good fit for you?

Working with the children can also be a good distraction. When I work with them I concentrate on their needs and don't think about my problems as much. It's when I have a break or at the end of the day that it gets worse. A lot of school staff seem to be having difficulty getting through the days right now and are awaiting eagerly for the break.

ok. There are positives here.  It sounds like you enjoy the children.  My guess is that with your life experience, you are intuitive to their needs, tuned into them, and caring.  They are lucky to have you!  That they are a good distraction is special!  So at the end of the day when it gets worse, is there something physical you can do? There is plenty of scientific evidence that supports  physical activity as a therapy for depression.  Daily long walks? A run?  Kickboxing?  Yoga?  Or alternatively art or music - something you enjoy that immerses you and relaxes you? And make it a routine?

You mention you are a people pleaser.  I’m guessing many of us on this forum are.  But now is the time for you to take care of yourself, and not think about the needs of others over xmas.  You deserve this self care.

Relaxing bubble baths, jammies and your favorite tv series?  A cup of steamimg hot camomile  tea?

You are right that all school staff are reaching for the Christmas break.  It is always like this, and the pandemic has only made it worse.  During the Christmas break, I hope you can focus on your own well-being, and take care of YOU so that you can find your way back to feeling some calm again, and this will give your amygdala a chance to settle down.  

When my amygdala is in a heightened state, I do physical activity that I enjoy, which distracts me and prevents me from ruminating, and which also helps me sleep at night.  What works best for you wmm?

Three more days.  Stay in the moment with the children, and practice good self care when you are not with the children, and you will make it.  You’ve got this, and we’ve got your back.  Hugs

[Couscous]

Zachira May I ask how many sessions you did of EMDR? One therapist I interviewed who does EMDR and who also specializes in narcissistic abuse does EFT with her clients at the end of the 50 minute sessions to stabilize them. What do you think about that as an alternative to the 90 minute sessions?

[zachira]

I would only do the 90 minute sessions of EMDR. My therapist told me she was doing the 50 minute sessions to save me money. I did EMDR for about a year.

[Flossy]

WMM
You sound as though you are moving forward in the perfect way. Good on you.

Just one thought I have to share with you. I have C-PTSD from a mother with NPD. I developed it 15 years ago when I tried to get her to tell the truth. I also tried many SSRI's. The only medication type that worked for me was SNRI's. They work on the pre-cursor to adrenaline.

The main ones being PRISTIQ and EFFEXOR.
Consider having a talk to your doctor about a trial of one of these.
I personally take Pristiq 200mg AM and have not had a panic attack for 10 years.
It also stops my Fibromyalgia pain (something that can come with PTSD).

EMDR worked for me. I only did two sessions but that along with joining a group for PTSD has made me able to no longer suffer terribly.

I do a lot of research and self education on my own. I also did 18 months with a life coach by email which helped more than any therapy.

You are doing well, asking great questions and getting good advice.

I like that you narrowed your main concern down to "I just dont want to be scared of her anymore".  That is great. Write it somewhere. you can see it every day.

PS Give yourself a time and place where you have permission to cry a big ugly cry. I used to do it in the shower or in front of my mirror. It is necessary and very good for you. We have to learn to cry again, in grief, despair and sorrow,  as it's a normal reaction we have been made to feel we are not allowed to have.

It does not mean that it is hopeless or that you have failed.

[zachira]

How many sessions of EMDR a person needs is related to have much current and past traumas affect them. A woman coming from a healthy family who got raped might need 3-4 sessions. A lot of trauma starts with children when they are in the terrible twos and the parents start to abuse the child. My trauma started at birth when I was left in the crib all day with little human contact so I had never learned the most basic emotional regulation skills.

[beatricex]

Something you can try immediately, while you wait for the formal therapy is tapping.

"Even though I'm afraid of my mom, I love and accept myself" (said while tapping the 9 meridian points)
or
"Even though I have anxiety, I love and accept myself" (said while tapping the 9 meridian points)
https://www.tappingsolutionfoundation.org/howdoesitwork/

A long time ago a therapist also suggested that if I got stressed in a public place, to tap my middle finger and thumb together three times, then switch the the other hand, then back.  As many times as was needed (I close my eyes when doing this).  No one will notice you are doing this, it can be done discretely.  It disrupts the negative thought process you are having because it switches your thought from Left to Right brain and back.  That is also what work does, disrupts emotions, because you're concentrating (Left brain) on an anayltical task at hand. 

Totally get the idea that breaks from work are scary (that's when negative emotions come up for me), also that your Mom is scary.  I have at various points in my life also had an intense fear that my Mom is going to harm me.   Unfortunately, it's a real thing some of us suffer as adult children of BPD or NPD mothers.