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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Tips to avoid JADE  (Read 747 times)
Slothie83

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« on: August 14, 2022, 06:32:28 PM »

I’m really struggling not arguing and explaining. He asks pointed questions, makes assumptions, and tells me the exact opposite of what I’m actually thinking or feeling in what I can only assume is an attempt to draw me in. And the frustrating thing is, it WORKS! I know I should just walk away, or repeat myself over and over, he just ups his game then! I’m exhausted. I care about him but mostly I’m in this because financially I can’t make it on my own right now. Any pointers on distancing myself without coming across as completely cold and unloving? How can I hold my sanity together when things get like this?
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Husband2014
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2022, 06:45:11 PM »

This happened to me for 3 years and it was always no win questions like “do you think your sister hates me?” And of course if I say yes she’s like “see you need to cut her off” and if I say no “see, you’re defending them and never have my back”.  I kept messing this up for 3 years until I learned about not answering and just as calmly as I can (despite raging on the inside) saying “honestly she may hate your guts and she may like you, I don’t know and I can’t read her mind. I think you should just ask her”. I had to repeat this like a whole year for it to stick but eventually she stopped this garbage. Of course it’s on to the next thing. Her thing now is “she does everything and I do nothing” and she’s the one without a job mind you so gotta work through this now Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Slothie83

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2022, 06:07:00 AM »

I get those questions too about if so and so likes him. Generally it’s about my mom, he thinks she dislikes him and will usually make comments about how she acted “strange” towards him. He must know on some level though that I would never cut my family out of my life because he’s never pushed the issue.  He did somewhat cut his own children out of his life and now will blame that on me occasionally.
It’s all these twisty turny questions and remarks that cause me to question my sanity. Like, is it him? Is it me? There’s just enough truth in some of what he says that makes me wonder. I would never claim to be perfect and my mental health can definitely be questionable at times, but is coming upstairs to get my pillow after feeling blown off really worthy of being given the silent treatment? Is asking him the next morning why he was mad at me and making a (failed) attempt at explaining myself really b****ing? I don’t think so but I’m starting to question it.
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kells76
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2022, 09:53:01 AM »

Good question.

One thing that stood out to me was this:

Excerpt
I’m really struggling not arguing and explaining. He asks pointed questions

I wonder if the questions he asks come across as questions that, if a "broadly normal" person asked, would be answerable (and finished) with an explanation. I.e., the words sound like they could be normal. It's not like he's asking some weird "Do they believe I'm a space alien" question, or jumble of unstrung words. Perhaps the questions are ordered and phrased in a way that "tricks" you into thinking "this is a normal thing a normal person would ask"?

I ask because my sense is that often, pwBPD can use words and language in a way where we think they mean something a normal person would mean -- the literal words match. But, because their minds have a different organization, the connection to meaning of the words is pretty different. Normal-ish words on top, TOTALLY different understanding/goals "below the surface".

So I think you're on to something when you suspect that he's doing

Excerpt
what I can only assume is an attempt to draw me in.

Normal-ish words and questions, often about a 3rd party, but his goal isn't dialogue/discussion, it's getting his emotional (unspoken) needs met.

I wonder what would happen if you put some of the work back on him. Right now, it seems like the work is on you -- YOU have to answer the question, YOU have to engage, YOU have to XYZ.

Couple of ideas to return the work to him:

One is, when he says something like "Why do you thing your mom hates me" or whatever, try:

"Oh my gosh... why do you ask, babe?" and see where that goes. You aren't assuming you understand what he's implying or referencing. He has to do the work to be clear about what's going on.

Another is, when he asks that kind of question, try:

"Wow babe... that's news to me. Lots to process. I'm going to think about that tonight, let me know tomorrow if you want to keep chatting about it over coffee..."

Again, this puts the work on him. You aren't saying you won't talk about it. You're setting some terms for yourself -- you aren't talking about it now, yet you're open to him raising the issue again tomorrow. This puts you more in the drivers seat for what works for you, and requires him to take responsibility for keeping the conversation going, if that's what he truly wants.

A third option could be: "This must be important to you, because it's been brought up before. What new information do you have to share with me about it?" This could be tried if he tends towards repetition/circling/hyperfocus on "an event" or "the incident" over and over and over. Be open to "new information" and decline to participate in rehashing old rumination with him.

Of course, you may have tried these ideas already. You know him better than I do, so you can think about if they'd be effective, if you haven't tried yet.

...

Quick thought here:

Excerpt
Is asking him the next morning why he was mad at me and making a (failed) attempt at explaining myself really b****ing? I don’t think so but I’m starting to question it.

In a "broadly normal" relationship this can work -- waiting until things have cooled down to get some understanding. In a BPD relationship, which many here describe as a "high needs" or "special needs" relationship, as you're seeing, this may not be as effective as you would hope.

To stay in a relationship like this, where questions like these come up

Excerpt
is coming upstairs to get my pillow after feeling blown off really worthy of being given the silent treatment?

you may need to develop a "bulletproof" sense of inner self. Typically, you could discuss something like this with a partner, have some back and forth, and move on. In your relationship, you may need to have that dialog with yourself -- to know that no, you didn't do anything crazy. Maybe getting the pillow was a 3 out of 10. It wasn't insane or unprecedented. You're going to have to know YOU, dialogue with YOU, and get affirmation and closure from YOU.

Yes, there may be times when he is in a zone where he can have some insights, be at baseline, and you guys can have some normal dialogue. That's good when it happens, yet it may not be the norm. The question for you is if you can be OK with having a relationship where you may not get the conversations, explanations, and closure together as a couple that you would want. Can you be OK with doing  >50% of the emotional heavy lifting? Can you accept his limitations, that he often can't mentally provide resolution or participate in healthy recaps of what happened?

...

On the plus side, you're asking about different ways to address the emotional-engagement-seeking, drama-triangle questions. Interesting that both you and Husband2014 report hearing questions that aren't just "babe, how is our relationship doing", but are questions that (a) bring in a close 3rd party, and (b) have emotional traps built in. Circling back, yes, you are probably right that these aren't "face value" questions that can be solved with explanation.

So it's very possible that even in a "high needs" relationship, you can make changes to how you interact that can make things "less worse" and more tolerable for both of you.

Declining to engage with those questions on his terms can, in a way, allow him to figure out how he's going to soothe himself. Right now he perhaps gets some "venting" or "relief" when he can dump on you "See, your mom hates me, I have proof, and you're on her side". When you try different ways to put the work back on him and/or decline to engage, he may then have to find ways to soothe his own inner feelings. This has the potential to be a better path forward for your relationship.

...

Lots of food for thought. Hope a few of the suggestions are helpful;

kells76
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2022, 10:08:08 AM »

It’s all these twisty turny questions and remarks that cause me to question my sanity. Like, is it him? Is it me?

IMO, it's probably both. Probably something he says has some truth in it. HOWEVER, this does not mean that you are losing your sanity or that you are a bad person. You are just human, that's all - mistakes, doubts, wrongdoings, labeling, whatever - all experienced by everyone on this planet, all normal. You learn from your mistakes and move on.

For a functioning individual that's not even a question. But for wrongly-wired individual it becomes a problem. For them, you are some kind of machine that cannot make an error and if you do, it's the end of the world (in the moment at least).
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Slothie83

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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2022, 06:16:27 PM »

Lots of good thoughts there! Generally speaking I think I’m pretty good at turning his thoughts/problems back onto him. I’d have to say I’m not codependent, at least not much and not in the sense that I think he needs a savior. If he thinks someone doesn’t like him, that’s his issue. I believe this is more than likely why this stuff comes up but doesn’t get much traction. What does get traction is his attempts at invalidating me. I believe I deserve better than that. It’s a trigger for me and I’ll grab onto it like a dog on a bone. I definitely need to learn a bit of compromise there and realize he’s never going to be “good enough” at validation/being there for me as I think he should be. That’s where my thoughts come in like, taking a pillow and going to the couch isn’t an awful thing. I could’ve screamed and thrown his pillow at him and made him go sleep on the couch! I believe that’s where Manic Miners comment about him wanting me to be a machine really hit home. He doesn’t want to deal with messy emotions. He doesn’t know how. If my emotions upset him, and since I’m not perfect I’m going to have messy emotions, then it’s up to him to deal with that. That’s probably where a bit of codependency or people pleasing sneaks in with me. For the most part I turn this stuff inward though, which creates a lot of sadness and a hopeless feeling. Like, I messed up again. Why can’t I control my emotions? Maybe I have BPD. Uhhh, maybe I just need to be a little kinder to myself and realize I’m human. Thanks for reading this rambling! All of your messages really got me thinking!
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Couscous
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2022, 08:15:09 PM »

In my experience it’s utterly pointless to engage in those kinds of conversations. A good line I learned recently is this: This conversation doesn’t feel good to me, so I’m going to go and do something else.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2022, 09:25:22 PM »

Maybe I have BPD.

While I don't believe you're seriously pondering this, the fact you can ask this is strong indication that you are NOT, as I've often written before.  Why?  One of the prominent behaviors of BPD is Denial, not to mention also Blaming and Shifting Blame.
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