I'm Constantly Calling Her on Her BS

[joethemechanic]

Every time she lies or plays some BPD game I call her on it. The only exception to me calling her out, is when I let her go just to see how far she will go. Kind of letting her get enough rope to hang herself.

It's funny, we really don't get in raging fights over it. Now and again I'll snap a bit about her drinking, or her choice of "friends". Most times I have a pretty "airtight case" and she will just fold and admit to whatever she did when confronted with the facts. She usually tries to put a "spin" on it though, and I tell her something like "What do you think, I'm 10 years old? You're full of chit"

She always want's to know how I know. I tell her "How long have I known you?" (We first started dating in 1983). Not to mention my father was a Project Investigator for the Air Force before he moved into a career in "Industrial Research" (Corporate Espionage). When you grow up around someone with that mindset, it rubs off.

So anyway, I'm not really sure if calling her on her BS all the time is healthy or not. I got to tell you, it would sure be nice if I didn't have to do it. It just seems so negative. If nothing else, it uses up time that we could spend doing something enjoyable.

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[maryy16]

After almost 30 years of being with my BPDh, I have started calling him out when he starts to dysregulate.  Now I do have the advantage in that my H does fully admit to having BPD.  And he says that everything I say about his condition makes perfect sense, when he is in a normal state.  But that when he starts raging, his feelings are the only thing that matters.

I don't say anything in a mean way, but just kind like "really, is that necessary?" or "does that really make sense to you?" or sometimes just plan "stop acting that way. That's really uncalled for".

And, at least for us, it does work.  He has told me this.  That when I call him out on his behavior, it makes him stop and think.  He says that while in a rage, he cannot see that he actions, words, etc. are inappropriate and he needs to be reminded.

Now I do have to say this tho, that 10-15 years ago, this probably would not have worked. My statements to him  would have made him rage harder and stronger. But now he is on medication and about 10 years ago, he sought help after he got out of control while raging.  So I am not really sure if I would recommend doing this unless your pwBPD understands that he/she has a problem and needs help.

[drv3006]

Calling mine out on his BS has always set me up for hours of philosophical projection BS that makes me want to play in traffic.  He never shuts up and tries to twist around for hours or weeks how its all me.

[Mono No Aware]

Lessons:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

[an0ught]

When the relationship and the pwBPD has been sick for a long enough time a lot of the reality is perceived through a warped filter. Words heard mean something different and words spoken too. And wanting to put a stop to it is tempting. Should one do it?

Yes, we have some responsibility as the more adult person to deal with facts and steer the relationship back into being grounded in reality. This site on the top left corner has a banner "bpdfamily.com". Yes it primarily means us as nons but also eventually us as a couple if we want to heal.

Now is calling out BS the right approach?

1) calling BS risks being aggressive and is not respectful. Our partners are ill and highly sensitive. This only adds to their shame. It is invalidating and increases the tendency to dysregulate.

2) if BS is a symptom of dysregulation then the dysregulation has to be dealt with first  (see Mono No Aware link for a discussion). Either boundaries (e.g. not acting on BS information or advise and letting SO cool down) or actively validating and helping to calm the pwBPD down.

3) if the person is reachable via SET consider putting the record straight using SET. Getting back to reality is a painful process and our pwBPD can not be spared a certain amount of invalidation. Not all errors people make around us need to be corrected but some certainly do.

For validation the following rules apply:

• Validate the valid - Not all statements are complete BS - some contain partial truths and we may choose to focus on that and leave it up to the other person to get wiser themselves.
  
  
• Do not invalidate the valid - Not all statements are complete BS - some contain partial truths. If we focus solely on the invalid part we send a strong message on the overall statement.



• Do not validate the invalid - Saying yes to BS for the sake of peace would fall under that.



• Invalidate the invalid when needed - see 3) above.

The challenge is that a relationship that is stressed has a lot of invalidating exchanges. A healthy relationship has a 1:5 invalidating:validating ratio i.e. to compensate for one invalidation there are 5 validations. Studies have shown that this ratio is a good predictor for the longer term stability of the relationships. Getting our relationships back to "normal" is balancing act. There is a lot of nonsense going on and yes we need to put a stop to it. But we also have to keep the emotional needs of the pwBPD and the relationship in our mind. Our invalidation budget is severely limited and our need is big. Use it wisely.

[joethemechanic]

The strange thing is, these "conversations" rarely take on the tone of an argument. As long as she is sober everything stays pretty calm. I would say the tone is more like a conversation over dinner with a friend who is having a problem.

Believe me, we have had our heated arguments back in the day, and sometimes still do.

The only reason I'm really questioning whether or not it is healthy, is because I feel like I am being very critical of her. I love her, I hate saying or even thinking negative things about her. And really, it is always about her drinking. Before this drinking and going to bars thing started, she really didn't do anything that bothered me. I long ago realized that I loved her just the way she was.

[Stalwart]

Hey Joe I'm not certain at all that I can follow. I'm a bit confused. I think sometimes we undergo such drastically irrational situations with our spouses that perhaps we tend to develop habits that are not positive for anyone and contradictory to a successful relationship. I don't know, maybe it's anger for the lies in the past, protection from them, embarrassment caused by them or just plain hurt they cause.

But I don't understand this; "I'm not really sure if calling her on her BS all the time is healthy or not. I got to tell you, it would sure be nice if I didn't have to do it. It just seems so negative."

Why do you HAVE TO DO IT? Is it to find out what you need to know to ensure nothing else is going on, or is something else?

I've learned one thing, and maybe only one thing. I'm the sane one in our relationship and if I can't manage ways to develop and maintain a better relationship with my wife that has huge challenges even considering managing good change, who can? I try my best to maintain positive interaction, always conscious of what the outcome of my conversations and reactions will provoke, good or bad. In that way I've been able to mold a better communication and interrelationship that is more honest, closer and pleasant. If I were constantly to “call her out” on her past or present behavior or lies she would be offended, defensive, triggered and it would all be a negative results. Allowing her a certain limit here has allowed her to trust me as someone she can talk to, confide in and trust. It opens up a door for such great improvement.

I’m just curious, what do you gain by ‘calling her out’?

[waverider]

I guess it depends on the dynamics of the RS, where you are at, what reaction you get and how it is done.

Analyzing every minor incident, just hides the significance of the important issues.

Do you really need evidence to prove it, and do you require their acknowledgement, or is it simply a case of being able to state "thats not the way I see it" and leave it at that?

Do you end up living your own version of a Vietnam war with endless small clashes over who knows what. Do you then enter a game of trying to get away with it/trying to unveil it. Does it leave you living in permanent suspicion?

Do many of the minor incidences have any relevance to the big picture?

Having an iron clad case is fine, but collecting this evidence is just dragging us deeper into the issue. It is often a waste of energy, I'd rather go fishing than assembling a case for the prosecution.

I don't think there is one right or wrong answer to this. It is a line we have to make for ourselves that leaves us feeling comfortable with. It will be different for everyone. Try each approach to find what makes you feel best

[elemental]

She sounds like someone who is wanting to get free and you reel her back in and try to control her.

Part of living a life is making mistakes, getting consequences, and then learning to trust ourselves.

Joe, why are you hanging on so tightly, lecturing, demanding, telling her how crap her friends are, giving her silent treatment when she doesn't do what you decide she should be doing?

Personally, I would just let go and let her find some stability herself. What a relief to you, then, not to "have" to do anything for a while. And what's in it for her if you keep making her boundries for her and slinging her around? Nothing. What's in it for her if you let go of trying to control her?

Everything. Her whole life. Let her live it, help her live it, don't live it for her.

[Stalwart]

Right on Waverider. That's my experience in these situation except I think I might just try a little harder toward validation and having her trust me as a confindant rather ensuring she can't.

Zencat: Beautiful response. I think when we get so offended by our choices in our situations that we can become bitter and lost. It's easy  to do and I was there so many times before I understood her illness.

I believe in empathy and using it as a guide. Love the person, hate the illness.

[joethemechanic]

Why I do it? Just to show her she isn't BSing me.

Why do I keep doing it? She rewards my behavior. The more I call her on her BS, the more time she spends with me, more texts and calls from her, More of her telling me she loves me, And more of her saying that she knows I really do love her.

If she wants to get away from me, I always tell her "Say goodbye forever and it will be over". She can leave me, it's not like she's in poverty. She stays at my house most nights, but she owns her own house. Nobody is stuck.

[Border_Lover]

I always tell her "Say goodbye forever and it will be over".

Wow, classy gentleman saying that to a woman with BPD.

It sounds to me like your the one with the issues. Please get some help, it sounds like you are messing her up far worse than she is you.

[Border_Lover]

You're*

Is there really no way to edit a post?

[Surrender]

I have made that mistake and all I can say is that it only makes things worse. It actually pushes them to a terrible edge and then they don't feel safe with you. I have watched my partner struggle to 'get over' the damage I have done to him by fighting back and making him feel unsafe and like he couldn't trust loving me or expressing his fears.

Essentially I did everything wrong in how I was responding to him for 2 years and it is only recently that I have begun to learn my mistakes. If anything I have through this past 2 years realized how much my BPD partner loves me because he has had to constantly heal from the volatility I brought to him. I never validated him but instead would just unleash my own sense of what I felt was being treated unjustly and then I would become furious with him. This cycle repeated itself and things kept getting worse and I watched him pull away from me. It began to affect us sexually because he didn't feel safe expressing that intimacy with me.

I learned that validating his feelings and not freaking out is what he needs to feel not only safe with me but heard. That is what allows him to come to me for support and love. All I did my responding out of my own sense of fury and anger was alienate him from me. He put up with it and tried telling me what he needed from me but I couldn't understand it or hear what he was saying because I was too busy trying to treat him like a normal person and too busy fighting against him.

Not good and I don't advise it. Like I said I did EVERYTHING WRONG in how I responded to his rages. When he would rage I would rage back and that was destroying us on multiple fronts. I am now learning how NOT to do that. It isn't easy but I really don't want to respond to anyone with the same rage that they bring to my doorstep unless it is a fight for life.

I fully admit that I was wrong and abusive myself to the man I love who is the sick one. I have bought books and am reading through this site to learn how to respond in the best way possible for not only my BPD partner but for myself and our relationship and the world at large while not losing sight of what is 'reality' and still keeping him accountable. It's a hard balance because sometimes I find myself being pulled into his upside down version of reality so I have to constantly do a check in. When he is lucid I resurface what I feel are the important key points that he was distorting due to his fears and insecurities.

I have to hold myself accountable as well for my own behaviors and responses and he has to be accountable for his, it's when both worlds become cloudy in the upside down twisted version of reality that is obscured by feelings and how the mind interprets things that create the 'unreality'. I agree with what Charred said in keeping it real to being held accountable on both sides. 

[charred]

Joe,

I beg to differ with the crowd.

A big part of the damage that is done to you in a BPD r/s... is jumping through hoops and losing your perspective/grounding in reality.

Hold your partner to the standard you would expect... of a partner. I expect truth from mine... when you get some BS... call them on it. My pwBPD did not stay in the r/s real long after I started not buying her baloney.

For me integrity is important, and my pwBPD had none, she slept around, lied, painted me black, edited history constantly, etc. I was very stressed out, went to my medical doctor for anti-anxiety meds, instead he referred me to a T, who suggested mindfulness, once I got my head on straight and started keeping reality as the point of reference... the BPD r/s no longer controlled me, and she left for easier marks.

Keep it real. If she can get help and will that would be best.

[joethemechanic]

I swear she likes it. Telling her she is full of it, and even exercising control through physical means seems to make her happy.

Taking her keys, blocking her car in with a truck, taking her phone away, even telling her bad influence friends to "Stay away from my property" (Property meaning her) . Seems to make her feel, safe and secure.

Oh you should have seen the looks when I called her "property" WOW, I thought a few of her "friends" heads were going to explode lmao.

Later on that night, she told me she knew I cared when I said that.

Hey, I didn't hardwire her like this. I know why and who did. I love her with all my heart. It's taken me over 30 years to figure out how to make her feel safe and loved. I know some of this sounds really crazy on the surface, but there are reasons why it isn't as crazy as it sounds if you look deeper.

A short version is, she only believes I see her as valuable if I'm willing to fight and take risks.

[123Phoebe]

   "property", wow... .

Joe, if this method is working for you (and her! sounds like), then why the other threads about the many issues you're struggling with?  Will they somehow fall into place now that she feels valued?

[joethemechanic]

I keep thinking there is a better way, but nothing I have found so far seems to work.

I've known she needs this kind of "reassurance" from me since the 80's when I chased her out of a bar one day threatening her "friends" with bodily harm , and generally flipping out. She moved in with me the next day.

This relapse she had drinking happened while we were broken up and I was dating someone else. I know if we had been together she never would have relapsed. I would have nipped the "I'm just hanging out at the bar with my friends from work and drinking pepsi" in the bud. She told me it happened "Because I had too much freedom".

I find thast she needs one meltdown a week or she starts questioning my feelings for her, and then she acts out. Frankly, I'm getting old (52) and can see a day coming when I'm not going to be able to turn on the hard guy act and make it believable. Right now I'm a pretty normal middle class guy. I'm just running on a reputation I earned for some things I did back in my 20's and 30's. People forget

[Surrender]

I get what you are saying completely because my partner has some expectations from me to prove that I love him. For example if I don't get jealous he begins to worry and if I don't ask him where he is going or want to know what he is doing when he isn't with me. Interestingly we have a long distance relationship where we live together (we are on opposite sides of the country) for half the year and are separated for the other half. Interestingly he seems to back off from being super invasive when we are separated and is far more intensive when we are together.

In fact if I expect to speak with him on a daily basis he gets overwhelmed and then he becomes upset but if there is one single thing that I do to make him worry than all hell breaks loose. Like wise if he didn't show his affection for me in certain ways I would also question him.

Do you remember those babies that would need to be wrapped up in a blanket really tightly to be soothed? I recall reading about these cases where the only way they felt safe was if they felt smothered. I think BPD is something like that sometimes so when you explain your wife's responses it actually makes a lot of sense to me. She only feels safe when you are providing her with those limitations. She only feels safe when you are establishing all of the boundaries for her because the world is big and scary. You are in effect doing for her what she can't do for herself and that is why like a little bird she flies directly under your wing each time.

[waverider]

It is true that some BPD females do respect the caveman approach. Something about it being simple and black and white, seems to straighten out some of their chaos.

I have done this at times, but not a consistent policy i use, but it does work at times.