Is it a trap? Love bombing and finally “promises” sprinkled with FOG.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I finally got up the courage earlier this week to move temporarily to my parents place. The first 2-3 days were filled with ridiculous threats, insane actions... .the typical extinction burst.

Since the the last 2 days she has been crazy apologetic, told me she wouldn’t make me adhere to her “non-negotiable” list. She’s admitted her anger and outbursts were uncalled for. She’s said she’s committed to changing for the better and has been begging me to come back.  Telling me how much she really does love me... .

She keeps talking about the kids and how they need us as a family and keeps sending me old pictures and has not stopped. I mean literally nonstop. Texts that could be books, 30 calls in a half hour, please please please.

I told her that the only way I could get clarity is if I had some space and room to breathe. Originally she said no, but quickly realized it was happening. She finally couldn’t control me.

How do I stay strong through this?  My heart breaks to see anyone sad (caretaker admittedly) let alone someone who I’ve shared so much with.

I don’t want to cave. I don’t want to go back. The things she’s said and done are just not things you do to someone you really love.

I want different. I need different. I need to live again.

[ozmatoz]

I finally got up the courage earlier this week to move temporarily to my parents place. The first 2-3 days were filled with ridiculous threats, insane actions... .the typical extinction burst.

Since the the last 2 days she has been crazy apologetic, told me she wouldn’t make me adhere to her “non-negotiable” list. She’s admitted her anger and outbursts were uncalled for. She’s said she’s committed to changing for the better and has been begging me to come back.  Telling me how much she really does love me... .

She keeps talking about the kids and how they need us as a family and keeps sending me old pictures and has not stopped. I mean literally nonstop. Texts that could be books, 30 calls in a half hour, please please please.

I told her that the only way I could get clarity is if I had some space and room to breathe. Originally she said no, but quickly realized it was happening. She finally couldn’t control me.

How do I stay strong through this?  My heart breaks to see anyone sad (caretaker admittedly) let alone someone who I’ve shared so much with.

I don’t want to cave. I don’t want to go back. The things she’s said and done are just not things you do to someone you really love.

I want different. I need different. I need to live again.

[Cat Familiar]

Her old ways of trying to control you with threats weren't working, so now she's trying something new.

In the investment industry they say: Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Do you want to hope that she's turned over a new leaf?

Or do you think that your years of history with her give you a more reliable guide to her future behavior?

PwBPD seem highly attuned to our feelings when it comes to tugging upon our heartstrings.

[ozmatoz]

Thank you Cat.  We are a week in to the separation at this point although there were times last week that I stayed and crashed on the couch because it was just so darn late after the rounds of arguing plus events for the kids attended together.  I would hope she had turned over a new leaf, not for saving the relationship, but for the sanity of all involved especially the kids, but I know better.  A few touchy arguments later and she's back to painting me black.

Her threats have subsided although I feel them just below the surface.  She is definitely moving down the list to Obligation and Guilt.

I get constant garbage about how I've left all of the house and daily chores/care to her and that is only breeding more resentment.  I neglect her and the house yet still find time to go to work.  Oh the horror, I have to work to pay for the house, car, health insurance... .xmas gifts... .  Says my priorities are f-d up.  I do feel obligation to help out as I know its a lot of work to take care of.  One of the things that always got under my skin was her telling me I should just pack up and leave because "she takes care of it all"... .well I think she is having a rude awakening of how much I really did.  However instead of discussing that its tough and she could use my help, its all about how I'm out to make her life terrible by neglecting her and my responsibilities.

Also I get the guilt trips about how much I am missing out on the kids.  I miss them finding the elf in the morning, the laughs at the dinner table and the daily conversations.  Tells me that if I'm the kind of person that chooses to miss those then she couldn't possibly choose me.  Well what is the other choice?  Comply to her every demand and move back in?  Continue the fighting and perpetual nonsense?  No thank you.  I get it, worst time of year to do this but is there ever a good time?

I was supposed to have the kids on Saturday for an overnight but when I went to pick them up she had an absolute crazy breakdown panic attack and demanded to be part of the days activities.  When I pushed back we started fighting pretty bad.  She had admittedly let me come on events with the kids when she didn't want me there (but the kids did).  This time D10 really didn't care and D16 was absolutely wanting this to be a girls and dad only time.  She pushed so much that I eventually caved and let her be part of the day but at every turn she kept trying to creep in further.  I finally had enough, said no.  D16 had enough, told her no.  I put the kids in the car and drove away.  Its been hell since.

It is becoming very clear to me the enmeshment that she needs.  She cannot live without being one.  This is and has always been tough for me but I never knew why until I learned about BPD.  There are a lot of things becoming clear that I feeling a new post may be a good topic for the board.

heartstrings very much tugged.

[Tattered Heart]

The way to know that someone is sincere in their apologies to is see them taking steps to actually resolve the issues not just giving lip service to them.

What are some goal posts that you can set up to see if she is truly making progress towards being healthy?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey oz, I'm w/Tattered Heart.  Talk is cheap.  What are the actions she is taking that demonstrate her willingness to address the issues?  So far, from what you are saying, it seems like just different variations on the sam there: F-O-G.  Stay strong and "damn the torpedos!"

LuckyJim

[ozmatoz]

The only thing she's offered is to remove her "non-negotiable" list, and acknowledged that there are times she says the wrong things in an emotional blast.  She's admitted she has abandonment fears and still acts like a 12 year old girl when her dad walked out on them (a real desertion walk out, not taking space and being involved).  The bargaining/begging only lasted for a few days.  When I refused to return home, now I am being told I'm a horrible person neglecting his duties to his family.  She still blames me for her DV arrest, and thinks I'm a p--sy for not being able to take some crap from her.

As far as anything concrete?  No.  Zilch.  No talk of therapy, no talk of counseling.  The only acceptable thing in her mind is for me to move back in 100%  even if I have to "fake it till you make it".  But that is also followed up with I would need to earn my way back into her life at this point... .   Very confused.

Just today while I am at work she has told me that I seem to have no problem taking care of work instead of my family.  D10 needed to be picked up from school today (sick).  Wife isnt working and is in town, yet because I'm not the one picking her up I'm still neglecting my family.

Really seems like more of the same.  The initial shock of me leaving triggered the begging but she's jumped back into her preferred persecution you are terrible mindset.

She unfriended me on Facebook, then I did things I had to block her for.  Now she has friends taking screen shots of some mental health articles I shared and she's using those to bash me for being "pathetic"... .

Really, how much more of this should I accept?  There is no amount of validation, SET, DEARMAN, JADE that works with her.

I want out of this relationship.  There is no safety here.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, you're definitely getting a clear picture of what she's capable of. And it certainly doesn't look promising for making big changes in the future.

As far as getting out of the relationship, she's given you a gift. So often people, when confronted with losing a relationship, are able to put in the effort to pretend that they will do better, only to renege on their promises once partners return to the marriage. But she doesn't seem capable of that.

So it makes for an easier decision. Clarity is painful, but not nearly as painful as staying in a relationship with abuse, blame and shame and little to no appreciation.

[ozmatoz]

So it makes for an easier decision. Clarity is painful, but not nearly as painful as staying in a relationship with abuse, blame and shame and little to no appreciation.

Clarity is certainly painful.  Most of my friends that are in healthier relationships can't fathom how I've stayed.  But they don't know the hell that lurks ahead if papers get filed.
Someone posted a few weeks back about feeling like you're on death row.  Is the pain to get out worse than the pain of living this way?  Its not like everything is terrible all the time, but she has shown her true colors and frankly no matter if the surface looks shiny I know what is lurking beneath.

Perhaps its the time of year with Christmas coming up that I'm afraid to push it.  But of course D10's birthday falls quickly after that, then school vaca then... .then... . 

Feels like life is slipping by.  I wish there was some way to convince her she'd be better off without me.  Happier even, if she gets the urge to want to leave rather than divorcing me as punishment.  I've been secretly hoping she finds her next target... .isnt that sad?

[Lucky Jim]

I've been secretly hoping she finds her next target... .isnt that sad?

No, oz, I think that's normal to long for some outside event to provide an easier escape.  Yet it rarely works that way.  Instead, you will have to walk through the eye of the storm in order to get to the other side, if that's what you decide to do.  It's rough sledding, no doubt, particularly with a pwBPD involved, yet that's the only way, in my view, to get to the place where greater happiness can be found.  I don't want to sugarcoat it, oz, because it's likely to be a rough ride.  Yet staying is likely to be even rougher, or at least sadder.  We are here to help no matter what path you elect to take.

LuckyJim

[ozmatoz]

Thanks LuckyJim.  I know the eye of the storm is waiting for me and it is completely terrifying.

The only way I can get out of this is by my own will.  I'm just not sure staying is sustainable, she is so resistant to take any ownership or offer ways to let us both do some independent healing.  She insists we need to heal "as one".  Nope, I need to heal for me.

Thank you all.

[Cat Familiar]

I know the eye of the storm is waiting for me and it is completely terrifying.

Yes, it can appear terrifying, when you look at it in its totality and enormity. However, when you take it one step at a time, day by day, it breaks it down into manageable pieces. And know that you're far more capable of handling the day to day business of dealing with this than a pwBPD.

That said, it still sucks to go through all the legal hoops and deal with false claims and BS. However, there is a point at which it is a done deal and you've obtained your freedom. That made it all worth the ordeal for me.

Another thing I should mention is that as I gradually unwound my life from his, I was buoyed by the emotional freedom I was obtaining on a day to day basis. That kept me motivated and invigorated as I navigated the path to divorce.

[Radcliff]

Hey Oz, my apologies for being slow to tune into your news.  I have to say, I am proud of you.  Fantastic news that you're taking some definitive steps.  When you disturb a system, you learn a lot about its characteristics, and it sounds like there's a lot of learning going on.

All of the things about your wife's behavior are sadly familiar to me, and knowing more of her backstory completes another piece of the puzzle.  My wife's father died when she was very young.  Understanding their history helps us with empathy, but it also makes it so terribly difficult to draw a line and keep from being consumed ourselves when we've built a life around taking care of them. 

I don't know if your wife has other trauma in her history.  Mine does.  My therapist said something very useful the other day.  I was taking with her about the drama triangle, and my wife's role as a victim, with me as rescuer.  She asked how it would look if I replaced the word "victim" with "survivor."  I said that a survivor sounds like someone more capable of taking care of themselves than a victim.  Bingo.  Perhaps try thinking of your wife as an adult survivor of her history, not a victim. 

You are setting a courageous example for your daughters about how a person ought to be treated, and about setting boundaries for yourself.  Without your present courage, they would be at great risk of either rolling over others' boundaries as adults (like your wife) or having their own boundaries rolled over (like you).  I know that either outcome is totally unacceptable to you, and I bet you'd move mountains to keep it from happening.  When you feel your resolve wavering, let your powerful fatherly love drive you through the storm.

I think you have an opportunity here.  My thoughts are heavily colored by my own recent experience, but since our wives have appeared to be twins separated from birth for these last few months we've been talking, perhaps my experience is reasonably relevant.  I'll also ask the others to jump in and let us know if they think I'm off base.

First, before I talk about the opportunity, let me say that I deeply appreciate what a tough spot you are in, how difficult it is for a caretaker to look out for themselves, and that your true path may be to leave, and I don't want to push you away from that.  I believe in you to make the best decision for your situation.

OK, so your wife's initial reaction meant a lot to me.  Clearly she fears losing you.  You've got enough perspective and strength to know that going back to the old way is unacceptable.  That is freaking awesome.  Do not waver.  If you feel yourself wavering, think about the example you're setting for your daughters and your resolve will strengthen.  So the opportunity could be for you to remain strong where you are, and for you to show your wife a path back to you.  She might take it, she might not.  You might be terrified that she will not take it and at the same time be terrified that she will!

Cutting to the chase, I'd go DBT or bust.  Rarely on these boards do we come out with a strong recommendation like that, so I leave it to the wise others to moderate if necessary.  But DBT or bust is what I'm sayin'.

My recent experience definitely started as caretaking, but I'm hoping that it marks the end of caretaking.  I went to www.behavioraltech.org, and found local DBT providers and called a couple.  See https://behavioraltech.org/resources/find-a-therapist-app/.  They are not all listed there, so I asked my therapist if she knew of any, and also did a local Web search.  I had planted the seed months before about DBT, so my wife knew that I thought it could help us.  I mentioned the name of a DBT therapist a couple of miles away.  I never said, ":)BT or else."  Nor did I say anything about BPD recently.  But my wife knew that I thought DBT could help us, and I made sure she knew that I loved her but was not going to waver after I took drastic action.  She knew that DBT was the one path back.  She found a DBT therapist and started seeing the therapist on her own as a way to win me back, and suddenly found that the sessions were helping her, and it started to feel like a lifeline for her.  She had hope for the first time that she could find a way out of the darkness.  This after 30 years of saying that therapy was a waste of time and she'd never go.

If you stand firm but loving, and show your wife a path, she may take it.  It won't be easy.  She'll try every trick in the book.  You have to be ready for it not to work out.  But it may.

Despite the fact that you and I seem to have married twin sisters, I know that your path may diverge from mine at some point.  No matter what happens, I believe in your ability to get to a good place and make a great life for you and your daughters.  I'm hoping all of this helps, but chart your own course.

WW 

p.s. I'm reading a book called Boundaries that you might find useful, by Cloud and Townsend.  It's pretty heavy on scripture references, more than my style, but it's been useful enough I'm quite glad to be reading it now.  You'll recognize yourself and your wife in there

[formflier]

OZ,

What is your status in T?  What is the kids status in T?  I got the vibe your wife wants nothing to do with it?

I would encourage you to think through and then take action on ways for you and your kids to use T as a way to help take your lives and your relationships to a healthier place. 

Your wife will do... .what your wife will do.

She is going to take longer to realize that you will do, what you will do. 

Once both of you understand that reality, there is potential for a healthier relationship, regardless of the status of your marriage. 

Maintain the big picture, there are children involved, there will be a relationship with her.

FF

[ozmatoz]

Wow, thanks everyone, just reading these replies has helped calm my nerves a bit.

There has been a bit of a change as of late night into this morning.  As an exercise I asked her instead of just yelling at me to write to me what she was sad and afraid about right now.
90% of her list was about me and things I was doing wrong to cause her sadness/fear.  I would say that out of that 90% maybe half were reality and at least to a non would seem fairly inconsequential.  She did not ask me to do the same.  I had to inform her that I would like the opportunity to respond as well which eventually I did.  I tried to reply to some of her statements and add some honest parts of my own.  Even if they were hard truths about divorce, building walls, not wanting to engage with her... .

Her reply kept splitting between, being done to please come home all morning.
We had a pretty extensive "fight" after the kids were in school.  She now says she'd be open to seeing her therapist again (last time I can recall was over 2 years ago).  She claims that she knows she hid behind her anger, she knows that lashing out was what pushed me away.

She also states that me leaving was a direct assault on her biggest fears and she's not sure how to deal with me crossing that boundary.  But I've heard this before... .this is the last (insert whatever).

She tried to reach out to hold my hand and I physically could not even let her near me.
She demands that I move back in until Christmas is over and we can split then if I still feel the way I do.  I just see this as a trap and excuse for current behavior to continue.

I moved out for many reasons, but there are two big ones.  First I just could not stand the daily verbal and emotional attacks anymore.  I feel bad leaving the housework and bulk of childcare to her, but she claimed for years I did nothing anyways.  Secondly and more importantly as a direct result of both her and I being caustic around each other I realized that I cannot possibly heal anything for myself and it was only contributing to the drama.  I couldn't breathe  It was evident this morning, that while I miss the house, the kids, the dogs just being in her presence was triggering for me.  I am emotionally terrified of her.  We have not had a real relationship in so long that just adding to this mess really makes me want to run away from her.

I told her that it seemed impossible for her to understand my reasons and that I continue to need some space to let me blood cool.  The last thing I want is for this to end in an explosion (I'm ok with it ending at this point).  She said to me that she doesn't understand my reasons, but understands that it seems to be a non-negotiable for me and I will do what I need to do.  This is followed by her stating that taking space and being in limbo is still not acceptable to her and if I continue to ask for space she will consider it over and do what she needs to do (She has said file for contested divorce).

To Formflier's point I will always have a relationship with her.  That is why if this plane is coming in to land I don't want it to crash.  I told my wife that I have a visit with T in the morning and would talk to her about why I feel such a block, why I am so emotionally closed up that I can't even consider being in the same room with her.  I doubt the reason will change anything quickly but I do need this to thaw eventually to keep the kids in the best place possible.  D16 has been visiting a T and needs to schedule another appointment.  D10 hasnt warmed up to the idea yet but I have some ideas on how to ease her into it.

I think my wife will eventually go back to seeing her regular T but she is not the type that would seek out or stick with DBT.  It would just be one more fight.

[ozmatoz]

Just for context the fight ended this morning with her calling me asking to say one last thing.
She wanted me to know that she didn't feel that I would really get anything out of my T visit tomorrow that would change anything.  I told her that I understood and that very well may be the case, but you never know, things have clicked there before.  She said ok and hung up.

Two minutes later I got another call promising she had only one last thing to say to me... .
She said she believes I moved out because I was looking for peace.  She understands.  She believes that if I could have and feel the peace at home I would be ok.  I could have and be around the kids and work on our relationship in peace.  I said that was interesting and we hung up.  Peace does sound like heaven... .do I believe its achievable at home?  no.

Now just received this text:
"I'm sorry.  I can't live with this pit in my stomach anymore.  If you really loved me you wouldn't want me to.  You did what you needed to do.  So did I."

Am I wrong feeling like that text is trying to manipulate or guilt me in some way?  I can't make heads or tails of her behavior. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, The F-O-G is rolling in, so brace yourself.  Of course that's an attempt to manipulate you, through guilt and possibly fear (she did what she needed to do?).  My suggestion: stay in the center, without getting drawn into the drama.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

  I can't make heads or tails of her behavior. 

Energy spent trying to figure it out "in detail", is likely energy wasted.  You know this is about FOG... she is trying to get you back in line, even though she may not have a coherent thought of doing that.  I hope that makes sense.

Please understand the likelihood that she hangs up and is "reflective" and "plotting" and figures out "OK... I'm going to call him and say xyz and that will make him do abc... ." is ABOUT ZERO.

A big part of BPD is "poor executive control".  She has a thought... .there is an emotional reaction... .there is no filter... .she reacts or sends it your way.

She likely feels somewhat better after doing that... .and a day later (or an hour) she may "remember" what she said completely differently... because she had a different thought.

Don't get drawn in. 

Perhaps schedule her calls... .make it about being important.

"Hey... this seems really important to you, I can't talk right now but have time blocked out at 2pm.  Can we talk then?"

Then... .quickly resolve and end the conversation because "you can't talk now".

Ignore texts... .let them roll in and perhaps only check them ever couple hours.  It will lessen YOUR reactivity which is good.

FF

[ozmatoz]

Good advice, I never replied to it.  Nothing else has come in since.  Although I don't expect it to stay that way.

One trouble with her calls is that if I tell her I'm busy or ask to call back, (or worse don't answer) she instantly dysregulates and its off to the races

I think I was able to not reply because... well if she really DID what she had to do... .we are on to the the next steps and the lawyers can duke it out.  Nothing left at the moment to drain my energy into.  I'll go home, have a beer and sleep.

Thank you FF for the reminder of no filter, into the mind-out of the mouth... .its good to keep that in perspective.  The topics themselves are often confusing enough, trying to decipher why they come in when they do... .hopeless.


I'll try to stay out of the drama tonight,
-Oz

[formflier]

One trouble with her calls is that if I tell her I'm busy or ask to call back, (or worse don't answer) she instantly dysregulates and its off to the races
 

Start a habit of not answering... .and follow it with a polite text.

"Clobbered with meetings at the moment, I'll touch base when I get free."

I'm reluctant to hold yourself to a time, unless you say something like.

"Not able to take your call now.  I'll try to contact you between 2 and 3pm."


You are not SOLVING anything by answering the phone.  You mentioned that if you don't answer she will dysregulate... .  Do you see how she is controlling you through "fear" of dysregulation.  Again... it's not a detailed thought or plot on her part... .but has the same effect.

Perhaps answer the first call and make reference to "about to start a long meeting"... .  What kind of work do you do?  It needs to be something that makes sense.

Can you see how she has "fear" of T... .(therefore suggest you don't go).  It's best not to mention it at all... .

"Thanks for your interest and suggestion."  (does anything else really need to be said?)

FF

[40days_in_desert]

ozmatoz - It looks like this has been addressed several times in this thread but wanted to add my 2 cents. My ex has tried to recycle our relationship 4 times since February. The first time I almost fell for it but as mentioned here, she only offered words.
She felt "scared, pressured and even threatened" when I mentioned her leaving her boyfriend as a prerequisite to reconciliation. Which would have been a good first action step to showing what she said (wanting to reconcile). She's still with him and was with him during all 4 recycle attempts.

You're not alone. Actions have to match up with the words.

[formflier]

Actions have to match up with the words.

At a minimum.

Much better for actions to "lead" words. 

"I've left my boyfriend and I'm spending time thinking about my future.  It would mean a lot to me for you to join me in a conversation about us."

FF

[ozmatoz]

Interesting thoughts FF.  Often when she has my head spinning I do not reply in a BPD friendly manner.  I have tried the text saying I will call you back shortly, but that generally means she keeps demanding when when when... .

We did have drama last night, but I did a good job trying to stay out of it.  It centered around me not answering her and her mind jumping to a conclusion that I was out with another women on a date which then lead to some extremely jealous behavior. 

Truth is I was out with a good mutual friend who has seen a glimpse of what I deal with.  He watched the 40+ calls and 100+ texts roll in and just looked at me and said wow, it really is as bad as you say it is.  It was good to get some validation and it helped me stay strong in not jumping into the triangle.

40days, I hear the words scared, pressured and threatened from her as well.  To FF point on your post my wife's actions are opposite of her words, then even after she's toned/calmed down they are still just words with no action. 

I really need to find a way to carefully extricate myself from this r/s.  She is so far from actions that would show true reconciliation and frankly there is no love left.

She has me terrified of making the final push to get out of this.  I keep thinking my block is that I don't want to go through the hell, I know my kids will get dragged through it too.
Really sad.

[formflier]

  but that generally means she keeps demanding when when when... .

 
She has me terrified of making the final push to get out of this. 

To be clear... .I'm not suggesting that you engaging later will "make" her happy.  Although it would seem giving her a time is a good thing to start doing... .give a time range.  "Between 3 and 4"


Yep... terrified... .that is her "goal", although I doubt she has that goal as part of a plot.

It would seem that the feelings she is trying to get you to feel... well... .is it working?

FF

[ozmatoz]

It would seem that the feelings she is trying to get you to feel... well... .is it working?

FF

She's doing a good job.  I'm not sure if she really is intentional at trying to create fear, its just how she operates and she knows it works.  The problem where I get stuck is her "ultimatums" are so extreme that... .man if she follows through big problems are happening.  As a sensible human I understand those risks but I don't think she does.  Its a perpetual cycle of me needing to protect the family and her from herself.  I didn't sign up for that!

[Radcliff]

formflier, thanks for making the point about executive control.  That's helpful for me to remember in my situation, as well.  I was discussing with my T how deliberate some of my wife's patterns seemed to be, and she essentially made the same point you did.  She has been talking about the frontal cortex (where executive function lives) and the primitive base of the brain.  The non-executive brain seems to be repeating the same behaviors over and over.

Oz, I'm glad you're getting the space you need.  I can relate to absolutely not being able to breath (literally at times) when she is even in the same house.

I've got a few random thoughts based on your last post... .

Save screenshots of texts and call log of missed calls from your wife when you were out with that friend.  Someday you may be dealing with custody issues and trying to get someone to understand why you left.  A screenshot of a call log with dozens of missed calls really makes an impression.  That, plus your genuine care for your kids that will show in everything you say, plus what your kids will say about you, will tell a compelling story.  Also, keep a journal of all of the things you do for and with your kids, and any housework or home maintenance work you do during this time.  It's a bit of extra effort now, but will make it much easier and less stressful to tell your story later if you find yourself needing to.

I could really relate to your sentiment about protecting your wife from herself.  It is distressing to worry about them doing something that not only hurts us or our children, but also runs counter to their own best interest.  I am practicing letting go and not being a caretaker.  I'm still getting the hang of it, but when I'm succeeding, it's liberating.  One question, and I know it's a long shot.  Does she have any FOO family who are steady and calming?  I figure if one existed, you might have mentioned them by now, but if you were lucky to have that you could anoint a new caretaker and then step back.  But you may just need to step back.

On other thought, in case you end up working on custody issues.  I know it's early, but I don't want to miss mentioning this later.  For the physical custody, the time D16 spends at each place, you may want to make her a "free agent," not beholden to any set schedule.  Can she drive?  If not, I'd put that in motion.  She is only getting older, and it makes sense to support her agency.  Given your strong relationship with her, it may mean that you get more time with her, and at the very least may mean that she's with you when she needs you most.

WW

[formflier]

She's doing a good job.  I'm not sure if she really is intentional at trying to create fear, its just how she operates and she knows it works.  The problem where I get stuck is her "ultimatums" are so extreme that... .man if she follows through big problems are happening.  As a sensible human I understand those risks but I don't think she does.  Its a perpetual cycle of me needing to protect the family and her from herself.  I didn't sign up for that!

I hate to say this, because I know it will be scary and there likely will be negative consequences for you and your family... .

Big breath...

Take a step back, put better boundaries in place and then let your wife do, what she will do.

When she threatens... .be honest and authentic... ."Oh baby... that would make me so sad.  That's not what I want."  Then drop it.  Perhaps... perhaps add in... ."I'm about to head into a meeting, can me talk more about this tomorrow at 1245"

Big picture... .she is not going to do the threats.  She is more likely to do the threats the "madder" she gets.  The more you talk... .the madder she gets.  Unless of course you are capitulating, which feeds dysfunction in another way.  Don't capitulate.

Focus on expending far less energy on threats.  You can attempt to slow it down (delay to next day). 

You can also try to validate or find something to agree on (agreeing is VERY powerful... .when you can do it).

"I agree, that shouldn't have happened... ."


"You sound angry about this... .?"

listen... if she agrees

"I agree you should be angry... "

Do you see where I am going with this?  I think you have created and illusion for yourself where YOU are taking credit for bad things not happening.  You have kicked your own ass and wore yourself out in the process... .

That energy can be "spent" better in other places... .

FF

[Radcliff]

Well said, formflier, thank you.  I'm going to steal what you've said and use it for myself as well   I have been getting better at not getting sucked into the drama, but it's two steps forward and one step back.  Man, is it difficult.  But worth the effort for sure.

WW

[formflier]

  I have been getting better at not getting sucked into the drama, 

Be aware that many times the first step or two into drama seem so innocent, and many time they are completely innocent.

In my own relationship, especially after long periods of calm... .largely devoid of dysfunction, I will get sucked in for a while, until I realize what road my wife appears to want to go down.

Once I realize it, sort of a pre-planned response happens.  Not to say it's wrong, but to day I don't understand and need time to think it through... .my big picture is to slow things down, step back from drama and let whatever BPD fire is burning... .let it burn itself out with minimal additional fuel from me.

Said another way, it's not that you learn to walk around with defenses up all the time and never make a mistake... .it's that you realize that you are going down the wrong path when 3-5 steps down the path, instead of 20.  You also have the determination and skills needed to clean up your part of the mess and allow your partner to wallow in or clean up their own mess.

Hope the visual makes sense.

Last... .if push pull rears it's head in a major way, that you "mirror" what they are doing, but make sure you are closer to "center".  So... .they blather on about never wanting to see you ever again (sending a push), you can "push" as well, just give them a "a little space would be relaxing right now... "

FF

[ozmatoz]

Last... .if push pull rears it's head in a major way, that you "mirror" what they are doing, but make sure you are closer to "center".  So... .they blather on about never wanting to see you ever again (sending a push), you can "push" as well, just give them a "a little space would be relaxing right now... "

What about if a pull, like really insane pull happens?  I can deal with the push, I don't mind taking a step out and "pushing" back a bit to let things burn out.

What I can't deal with is now that I've moved out, all the talk of how good things can be, she will stand by me no matter what, she'll love me through all of my pain... .sending me picture after picture, text after texts.  Its nauseating and I feel like its intention is to beat me back into the relationship so she can slide back into the terrible BPD role again.  I'm too soft sometimes I just can't find the strength to do something drastic.

I have told her that she is crossing boundaries and the result is I need to pull back further, I have asked her to stop and she tells me she cant.  she just cant stop.  I feel like I'm against the roped getting punched over and over except there is no ref to call the fight!

This is hell.

[formflier]

Exact same theory with pull.  Your job is to "get between" where they are on a 1 to 10 scale and zero... .which is the neural position.

So, they give you a 6 on the pull.  "hey baby... .I miss you... you are the best, I need to get my paws on you and make you holler... ."

You give them a 2 or 3 back  "Thanks!... .I'd like to spend time with you too... " perhaps a bit nonchalantly... .to a bit interested.


When they give you a 6 on push... ."you stink... you need to shower... .your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries... ."

Give them a 2 or 3  "Whew... .yeah... .I could use some space too... "

Make sense... .stay between them and neutral... .

FF

[ozmatoz]

Thanks FF, I've seen that on occasion I am doing this already without recognizing that.  I will try to be more consistent.

One thing scary about this is when shes at an 8/9 and I've responded with a 4/5 she replies back twisting my words back to her 8/9 as if she didnt even comprehend the factual words written right in front of her.

In the case of today, I'm looking at what I would call dysregulation in the opposite of rage.

100s of texts non-stop, all night/day.  Even when saying that "yes I hear how important this is to you, can we talk later?"  It keeps going.

The few times I was successful and she said she would leave me alone.  That lasted for 20 minutes and it all started over again.

Thank you so much for your guidance here.

[formflier]

One thing scary about this is when shes at an 8/9 and I've responded with a 4/5 she replies back twisting my words back to her 8/9 as if she didnt even comprehend the factual words written right in front of her.
 

"That's not what I said... ."   pause  "I'm going to take a break from this conversation... .I'll check back with you in 10 minutes"

wash... rinse repeat.

Once they are that mad... .tools (other than your feet) rarely work. 

Try once... perhaps twice, then pull ejection handle.

FF

[Radcliff]

Hi Oz, that love bombing is so confusing.  We want so badly for it to be true.  And it is -- she really, genuinely believes all of that.  Have you heard promises like this before, or is this a new level?  If there were prior promises, how did they end up?  Has she started seeing her therapist again?

What thoughts and feelings are you having now that you've had a little more space?  Or has the love bombing kept you from having much space?

WW

[ozmatoz]

Hi Oz, that love bombing is so confusing.  We want so badly for it to be true.  And it is -- she really, genuinely believes all of that.  Have you heard promises like this before, or is this a new level?  If there were prior promises, how did they end up?  Has she started seeing her therapist again?

There have been promises before on both our parts, and promises broken on both our parts.  So I am cautious, of us both really.  I know that the old me prior to BPD knowledge would just cave and capitulate to the love bombing and assume she's genuine and the hurt is going away.  I can look back and see how it never really solved anything.  I will say that this time she has really owned up to some bad behavior, but I still see blame shifting just below the surface.  It doesn't take long for our "talks" to disintegrate into the blame game again.  This makes me believe that perhaps logically she may "know" what she's doing is wrong but just can't help doing it (clearly a hallmark of BPD).  And no she has not gone back to her T.  She did say that a few years back her and T did discuss how she reacts to things though.

What thoughts and feelings are you having now that you've had a little more space?  Or has the love bombing kept you from having much space?

The "space" hasn't really been space.  Its been relentless texting.  One evening that I was out shopping and met a buddy for a beer I just stopped responding and she went nuts.  40 calls within a half hour, probably close to 100 texts in the same time period.  Called me from the home phone while texting from her cell.  Even used D10's ipad to try and facetime me thinking I would pick that up.  Really bizarre.  She thought I was out with another woman.  My friend (also a mutual friend of hers) was like... damn if you are getting in that much trouble you might as well just go find another women.  I joked that he wasn't helping me but at least I laughed for the first time in awhile.

That aside I've spent a few nights at home that I probably shouldn't have.  The company was nice and frankly we haven't talked to each other nicely in awhile.  I've had to push myself back out because I could feel her trying to swallow me up again.  The physicality is relentless.  She claims that because my love language is touch and that one of the things I brought up was wrong with us 3 years ago was physical intimacy that she's now trying to communicate with me.  While on the surface thats great, but its a bit much and more than I'm ever used to.  I'm not exactly trusting her which caused me to pull away.  She takes that as rejection, which it is, but she takes it as she is worthless and not loved rather than the reality of it is just that I am not in that "place" with her right now.

Now that in her eyes the "space" she admits she can't give me has at least broken the cycle of downright nasty behavior she is demanding that I move back in immediately.  Now says the space helped, but now is hurting because it is causing the kids stress as they need their dad and she is frankly taking the brunt of the housework.  It is nice that she finally can realize that she can't do it on her own and I admit I am not around the girls like I would like.  Holiday season is not helping.  The problem is that she is giving another ultimatum.  No more discussions on our relationship unless I'm back in and let go of all the hurt.  She's saying she did it like a switch... .  well we know that she can.  I can't, but she cannot see it that way.

She has offered to "let it be" at home and just go through day to day motions without deep discussion and save those for therapy.  Yes, T.  The same T that I brought up before and she physically attacked me over for bringing up.  I believe she needs her own T for awhile before we could possibly even attempt a couples session.

One may say that I'm in the driver's seat.  Make the demands for change that I need to see happen.  Here's the rub there... I'm not sure I can believe it.  I'm not sure that even if she changed that I could ever really feel comfortable around her without waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Frankly I'm terrified she'd agree to all my demands and I would be stuck.  Again.  I guess that's why I'm on the conflicting board.  I just cannot seem to find a way to believe change is possible, but I can't walk away either... .  still stuck and its not good for anyone.

[formflier]

Why not enjoy the physicality, perhaps even ask her to step it up another notch?

Why not take her up on the offer to go to T and only talk about things there?

We know she will reverse course... and reverse again... .and again...

3 steps forward, 2 back, sideways... .



Why would you be stuck if she "gave in" to all your demands?  Why even call it a demand?  That sounds iike a conquering Army to me... ."demanding" a surrender... or else.

Step one... .thank her for the therapy offer, ask her when she has the first appointment set up for, because it's important to you.  Very nonchalant. 

If she says no... .call and set up the appointment, and YOU go... .let her know.  As long as you keep your distance, she will likely go, because she wants you back...

Is it manipulative.?.perhaps... .I would said pragmatic.

FF

[ozmatoz]

Well the physicality would be nice, but it comes with its own trap.  We've been down this road before where we enjoy each others company and because we were intimate she believes "its all fixed"  When it clearly was not fixed and some of the heavy talks continued I was then accused of "using her body" and that makes me a terrible POS.  This is terribly hurtful to me because I am not the type to "use" a woman.  Basically, how could you engage with me like that if you didn't feel the exact XYZ enmeshed feelings as me?  I really can't win here so the physical side of my relationship has long since dried up and is the exact reason I can't feel comfortable with her.  Waiting and wondering how its going to be used as a club later doesn't exactly set the mood... .

I do like your suggestion on the T, although... .I did that once before earlier in the year, we went once, then I went the next session and she never showed up again... . 

I think I feel like I would be stuck because by giving in to my "demands" or shall we now call them "requests" would obligate me to stick through another recycle.  I've been through so many I don't know if I have the mental capacity to do it again.  Life is too short to keep up with this garbage.  But I'm married and have kids and there is a certain obligation and expectation to do what it takes... . 

I guess I'm desperate to see signs of reconciliation rather than recycle but have yet to see any.  Its still the same old "you need to step up"  "Take action" "Show effort" rhetoric.  When I push for details on what those mean to her, and what specific steps she would like me to take to help change the dynamics she can't answer and just deflects.  I'm afraid of this circle again.

-Oz

[formflier]

Several things going on here.

I'll try to separate them.

Physical stuff.  It doesn't obligate you to listen to blather and obligations.  This is really on you to establish boundaries.

Only you can "obligate yourself" to do things.  I would take time to think that through.

Stop pushing her for details... .let her explain that to a T in therapy.  You and I both know she has no details, there are no "deals" you can make with her.  The "sign" you are looking for to show reconciliation is attending therapy for the benefit of the relationship, even when she is not "happy" with it.

Hang in there... .

FF

[ozmatoz]

Only you can "obligate yourself" to do things.  I would take time to think that through.

First off, FF, thank you so much for sticking with me through this process.  I think its just as much for me to figure out for myself on what my limits are and how to unwind myself if necessary and be as emotionally prepared as possible.

I think the obligations I feel here are certainly tainted by her FOG, but I do feel a strong obligation internally to do what I need for my kids.  Separating her version of that with my own has been difficult.  By moving out she doesn't really want any help with the kids unless its 100% moved back in fully as a "husband".  Thats sad because the only option that leaves me with is filing for divorce and enforcing a custody order.  This could be handled so much better "for the kids" but I know she can't see it that way.

Thanks again, I hope you are finding peace in your life.
-Oz

[Lucky Jim]

By moving out she doesn't really want any help with the kids unless its 100% moved back in fully as a "husband".  Thats sad because the only option that leaves me with is filing for divorce and enforcing a custody order.

This, too, is an attempt to manipulate you and an application of F-O-G, in my view.

Suggest you stay in the center, above the fray, which you are doing well.

LJ

[formflier]

This could be handled so much better "for the kids" but I know she can't see it that way.
 

Please read Lucky Jim's post.  What does "staying above the fray" and "above the FOG" mean.

Big picture.  You think it can be handled better... .so handle it better.  She will do, what she will do.

She likely won't see it the way you don... .remember... .she is disordered. 

Breath... .big one.

Remember... .she is disordered.  She would love to limit you choices to "what she agrees to" or "what she can see... "

Do you see the FOG in that?  The manipulation? 

Only you can tell us if you have actually "taken the bait" or "if the hook is set".  (fishing analogy).  Don't bite... .make your own reality.

FF

[Radcliff]

Hello Oz,

Hang in there, brother.  You're doing great.  It may not feel like it, but you are holding up well to a superhuman challenge. 

I am with you 100% on the physicality.  I was in the exact same spot in late October.  My wife was pouring on the steam to reel me back in.  She was hungry like I'd never seen her, quite determined, and I had *never* resisted sex like that.  It was amusing and really disturbing to me at the same time.  The gender roles were totally reversed.  Her hands were roving like a teenage boy's.  She wanted sex to get close, and I wanted to be close/safe before sex.  Total turnabout.  One of the things that was unsettling was the implicit threat that if she didn't get sex things would get ugly.  That gave me an upsetting look into how it could be for a woman in a coercive relationship.  OK, back on task -- avoiding sex was as important for me to keep things straight in my head and not recycle as it was to send a consistent message to her.  I think you should stick to your guns.

Except for the sex part, I second everything formflier and Lucky Jim have said.  I have used formflier's "she will do what she will do" as a mantra to get me through a few tough spots in the last couple of weeks!

Hey, here's another book for you -- "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend.  They are over the top on scripture references, but my T recommended it, and it's been quite good.  I think you and I share a need to do some work there, and our wives are world-class boundary busters who've totally enmeshed us.  I think it would be good for you to read right now, which gets me to the texting and phone calls... .

If you quickly develop the ability to set boundaries on texting and phone calls, you will get some space and some immediate relief.  Make this a priority.  It doesn't work if you see the texts and phone calls come in.  Your heart will jump and your space is invaded.  Block her, and set the timer on your phone for when to unblock her.  If she's actively calling/texting, text her that you are going to be away from your phone for a certain amount of time, or something vague like "just after lunch."  And my wife has used all the tricks yours has, and more!  Texting/calling from my daughter's phone, calling from a Google voice number with my mother's area code, etc.  If you need to, go to Airplane Mode for an hour and set your phone timer.  Nobody needs to contact you so urgently they can't wait an hour.  You might also see if there is a schedulable call blocking app that could screen out all the routes your wife uses.

One may say that I'm in the driver's seat.  Make the demands for change that I need to see happen.  Here's the rub there... I'm not sure I can believe it.  I'm not sure that even if she changed that I could ever really feel comfortable around her without waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Frankly I'm terrified she'd agree to all my demands and I would be stuck.  Again.  I guess that's why I'm on the conflicting board.  I just cannot seem to find a way to believe change is possible, but I can't walk away either... .  still stuck and its not good for anyone.

This is exactly where I am.  In the driver's seat, and terrified she'll say "yes" to everything, then we'll recycle.  The trick, as I think formflier and Lucky Jim are saying, is to make her produce results.  I am going to go slow.  No recycle.  I'm getting too old for this, I've invested too much, and everyone else has invested so much to help me, there is no going back.  I'm going to go as slow as I need to to feel safe.  And that's d*mn slow and d*mn safe.  If she gets impatient and decides to call it quits, that's a sad but acceptable result.

My outlook on my own situation changes day by day.  My wife is slowly adding DBT skills, but is very early and imperfect, and she is still pretty much at square one on accountability.  Yesterday was a bad day.  She pushed me into a bad place -- all outbound, needy communication -- and it sent me to the pits.  Today she'd processed the bad behavior yesterday with her T, and was in much better shape.

The key here that makes this different from any of the thousand times we've recycled is that we have very strong boundaries to give me space (literally) and she is adding skills and insight she never had before with DBT.  I was a shameless DBT salesman before, you pushed back that it was unrealistic, and I backed off because I didn't want to be overbearing.  But it's popped into my head again today, because unless your wife gets some new skills, she may have a very hard time delivering what you need.  It is crazy, but my wife *loves* DBT.  She has been beyond miserable with being out of control all these years, and her therapist is validating and tough on her at the same time.

Sorry, this is getting long, but let me give you an example from the last two days.  In our text conversation yesterday she ran over me with angst and emotion so much that I was despondent that evening that she could ever manage to be the partner I needed.  Then she went to her T and showed her T our text conversation.  Today, she came back to me with an apology and said she could see where she went off the rails.  I can count her apologies in 25 years on the fingers of two hands!  I told her that on the particular issue we were talking about, I think she's best to lead, but she needs to be in her Wise Mind to do it.  She said they hadn't gotten to that part yet, they were doing Emotional Regulation.  We talked about how that was a prerequisite for Wise Mind.  A few weeks ago, this woman told me that the problem was 100% mine, and I needed to move out.  We have a long road, and my standards are very high, so we may not make it.  But we might, and for certain we'll be better coparents and she'll be a happier person.

So, I'd say don't give up on DBT.  Consider talking to a local DBT therapist.  Consider reading up on the components of DBT.  It is a curriculum tailor made to our situation!

While drafting this reply, I figured I'd better go back and read up on the site resources on how to get a borderline into therapy.  Obviously, we're not going to talk about BPD!   I like the idea of talking about tools that are helpful.  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is an hour and forty minutes long.  In my experience this evening, it takes two margaritas and a half bag of popcorn to get through it.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help! How to Help Someone with Mental Illness Accept Treatment."  In the video, he says that two things are predictive of whether or not someone will stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.  Bottom line, I think this guy is onto something that is straightforward enough for an engineer to follow.  Dude, it took me a court order to get DBT going.  Maybe you can one up me!

Keep us posted, and try to find some nice moments with your girls this Christmas!   

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW, lots to reply to here I'll try to condense.

Boundary buster is very true.  I have been a bit better and holding these, but its funny she is now trying to create boundaries too (a good thing) but she tries to use them as a tool for ultimatums some times.  I do need to read up on these and I appreciate the book suggestions.  I'm trying to hang on to my job so time for reading has been scarce.

Regarding phone calls I unfortunately cannot turn off my phone.  Due to D10's medical issues I need to be available in case of an emergency.  I do know that she explicitly abuses that fact.  Her cell phone, our home phone and her work phone are blocked at my office due to her calling in here to the office so its not like she has any other way to contact me if there really is an issue.  And yes she's tried other numbers in an attempt to reach me when I was not answering.

I am terrified of the recycle.  I moved out to protect myself, and believe it or not protect the children.  I was the focus of rage and intense feelings and there was no other way to remove the fighting from in front of the children.  Yes I could have gone to court like you but as we have discussed the view of the courts out here the likelihood of getting the outcome you did was considered highly improbable.  The downside of going for it and being denied would have added a whole new level of psycho I shudder to imagine.  So this was the next best thing.  And it has worked a bit, she has calmed down some.

In regards to taking is slow and safe, I am trying EVERYTHING I can to keep it that way but I unfortunately think she is going to do something irreversible.   She has DEMANDED I make a decision tonight as to whether or not I'm committed to saving the marriage or divorce.  The problem here is that committing to save the marriage for her means moving back in 100% with no space.  I can't breathe as it is and she still has me running around like crazy.  I am afraid she is getting impatient and very well may end it in spectacular fireworks.

In regards to DBT and therapy in general I did push back a bit when we started talking.  She just wasn't ready.  I couldn't even go see my own T let alone suggest one for her or us.  She physically attacked me the last time I brought up marriage counseling.  Things are different now though.  I believe me moving out really shook her up and made her face some demons from her past.  I'll keep her privacy without details here but she admitted to being abused by her father as a young child and admitted that it still has power and control over her reactions.  She has even brought T back up into her discussions.  I'm thinking that I can bring DBT up saying that I heard her about her abuse and was researching and found that DBT can be excellent type of T for dealing with it.  She knows she needs T for that, frankly I don't care what gets her there as long as she gets there.  Even if we don't work out, like you said we'll be better co-parents for the kids and happier overall.

Thanks for the links, I'll go back and read those.  I'd much prefer she talk to a T about some of the issues and I know that I'm capitulating a bit here by trying to foster a discussion with her tonight.  Unfortunately we've got xmas coming around the corner and I'll take some hits here to keep some peace for the sake of not ruining things for the kids.  Tonight's talk is about: right now, 5 years from now, long term.  It has been so long since we have talked about what we want in our lives that I don't even know who she is or what she wants.  Frankly I don't think she knows about me anymore either.  We've spent the last 3-4 years embroiled in BS.  A lot has changed.  I'm hoping this "state of the union" can give both of us something.  Who knows, maybe I'll hear some lasting real desire from her to change, but also I may hear a completely different view and desire for the future.  I guess that wouldn't be bad as it at least would move this in one direction or another.  Honestly though I don't think much will come of it.  She'll demand I make a decision after and we'll be right back to square one, but at least for me mentally I can start checking off more boxes in the try everything column.  There is not much left.

Thanks WW,  good to know I've got teammates here.

Be well,
-Oz

[Radcliff]

Oz,

If you are like me, right now is like that netherworld between sleep and wake.  You are no longer completely under her spell, but you have not completely escaped it.  Tonight is risky.  Be empathetic but firm.  Do not cave.

I'm thinking you likely don't want to mention DBT tonight.  If you see an amazing opening, maybe talk about skills development so you both can stay emotionally level headed, but only if you think it's a good time.

Be careful about your desire to have a good Christmas for the kids.  Your highest obligation to them is to get the best outcome in the long term.  I know first hand how easy it is to compromise to keep the peace.  If your wife chooses to be a stand up person, she could respect your boundaries and have a fine Christmas for the kids.  Don't let her lay it on you.  This Christmas may need to take a bit of a hit for the kids' long term benefit.

If your wife asks if you want marriage or divorce, say you want the marriage.  But do not fall into the trap of letting *her* define commitment.  You want the marriage if it can work for both of you and there is mutual love and respect, yada yada. Make a clear statement and then don't go any further.  Repeat if necessary.

Hold firm on the boundaries.  You need space to heal.  If she says you need to be together to heal, say you need space to heal first to be a good partner.  It is not a negotiation.  If she makes threats, hold the line.  She will do what she will do.  Stay calm and listen with empathy.

Stay strong and hold the line tonight.  You can do it.

WW   

[formflier]

  I am afraid she is getting impatient and very well may end it in spectacular fireworks.

Big picture... .this is your "fear" to deal with.  If you deal with it, your chances in the relationship go up  "exponentially".

If you remain afraid, she has you... .

Don't take credit for her good stuff... .or her bad.  If she ends things in a spectacular fashion... .she will do so... .it will have very little, perhaps nothing do to with what you actually have done... .

   

FF

[Lucky Jim]

She has DEMANDED I make a decision tonight as to whether or not I'm committed to saving the marriage or divorce.  The problem here is that committing to save the marriage for her means moving back in 100% with no space.  I can't breathe as it is and she still has me running around like crazy.

Hey Oz, You realize that she is attempting to manipulate you through F-O-G, right?  If a pwBPD doesn't get what they want, they usually up the ante, in order to apply more pressure.  Your task is to disregard this artificial deadline.  You don't really have to decide tonight, do you?  Try to focus on what is right for you, rather than responding to arm-twisting.

LJ

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW, FF, LJ.

The texting has been brutal today and tonight will be tough.  She's pressured me for a decision for the last 4 hours and I haven't caved yet.

This will push her buttons that "I never respected or listened to her and I'm not doing it now"... .but I can tell you with 100% certainty that if I can't get the space to heal, this marriage will end.  I just can't do it under these pressures any more.

I literally just used your line about mutual love and respect and she just spun it back that she needs me here in order to be able to do that, she is not investing in and participating in discussions about working on our marriage until I have made a decision.  I read that as until I have agreed to "her" decision.

I fear being so exhausted that I'll crash there... .cant let myself do it... .Hold the line... .hold the line.  You're right I don't have to decide tonight, she can do whatever she decides to do.

I can't thank you all enough, you have been my strength when I have very little.
-Oz

[formflier]

Boundaries will help here.

Turn phone off or don't look at her text messages for a few hours.

There seems to be some turmoil around where you sleep.  Leave the house early tonight.  Let her/them know you are not feeling well (which is true) and you need sleep.  Go wherever you are most comfortable.  Turn off phone and get extra sleep.

Do this for 3 days in a row. 

More sleep and limited reading/participation in her texts... .and the world will look like a different place to you.  Trust me... it will work. 

FF

[ozmatoz]

I failed miserably.   I need a good whack on the head.

Last night was D10's Christmas concert so my defenses were already down and it was almost 9 by the time we got the kids back to the house and in bed.

We sat and talked for a bit and I did a good job holding my line, but so did she.  The statement was move back in by tomorrow (today) night or she is done.  I continued to hold the line until she decided to go to bed.  I made the mistake of continuing the conversation upstairs.

She did start to calm down, mentioned that she had seen her T again (not sure I believe it) and asked me to move back under the condition of putting all the heavy stuff aside for a bit.  Said that she just wants to get through the day and let connection happen if/when it does and to stop trying to force it.  She said she knows that I would be hot/cold towards her sometimes and that she was willing to tolerate that as we work towards finding ways to heal.  She also said that she wants to table any of these "heavy" discussions for in front of a marriage counselor.  While there was still a fair amount of blame shifting and edginess there was a clarity and sincerity from her that I haven't seen in years.

I was tired, cold and frankly feeling pretty lonely.  I knew uBPDw was tired of having to take care of D10 in the middle of the night so I caved and crawled into bed.  I slept fairly well but leaving for work I had to stop and shower/change at my parents place which put me late to work.

I am "supposed" to come home tonight but I have a million errands to run after work for xmas shopping and a mess to clean up at my parents place.  I broke the news that because of everything I would have to do I would not be coming home.  Now were back in the angry talks and she's told me not to come back until xmas eve... .  so I guess we're back on the roller coaster.

I know WW that this xmas may have to take a hit (it already has), but man I just can't put the grenade on it. 

At this point I may/may not go back tomorrow night but I'm only packing to get through xmas.  If for some reason there is a Christmas miracle I can always go get the rest of my stuff.  If things still stink at home at least I have clothes and items elsewhere, although I feel like if I go again... .that will be it.

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Any mistake you've made, I've probably made twice as often as you, and for longer!  A couple of months ago, I'd load up on advice from the board, head home, and it never went as planned.  As badly as I felt I was doing, I was amazed the guys on the board stuck with me.  This is messy business.  Don't make yourself feel like if you play something imperfectly, the game is lost.  If you make a mistake, it's not the end of the world, it just may create more work for you later.

Likewise, this game will not be won or lost in a night, no matter what she says.  She cannot deliver success based on promises in an evening.  And while your mileage may vary, I believe she is exceedingly unlikely to end it quickly based on you missing an ultimatum, no matter how convincing she is.  And she is likely brilliant at this and getting better.  You need to face that fear and conquer it, as Lucky Jim and formflier have said.

A lasting, wise decision is only going to be made with you feeling strong, and you need space for that.  Keep your eye on the target point even if you get blown off course.  Just keep re-aiming at the target and pushing forward and you will get there.

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW.  Yes as others have said I really need to get over the Fears of her going nuclear or trying to get me fired.  Obligation has been tough too.  I was raised to take care of my sh**t and not be selfish.  This is very new territory for me.
As far as Guilt goes, I'm doing much better there.  I sometimes laugh at the guilt trips she tries to lay down.  The fact that D16 called her out on one recently seemed to provide me some much needed validation from within the family.  Not that I want the kids involved but D16 is really sharp and mature, I could tell she was asserting herself against her mom.  If I were to say any guilt that I suffer now its my own.  My own guilt about losing opportunities and hurting other people that wanted or were relying on me because I was too busy enmeshed in my uBPDw crap. 

I am trying to use this "new" guilt as fuel.  I'm tired of feeling bad that I can't interact normally with the outside world.  I find that when I can be myself what I get in return is wonderful.

I have a weekend bag and a couple of work outfits packed in the car.  I'm going home tonight to spend some time with the family through Christmas.  I am going to do my best to let my guard down and just see how she does.  I know she's expecting me to have repacked my entire belongings and have them stuffed in my car.  When she sees that I haven't, I know that will set off some storms and she has previously "offered" to come and pack me back up and bring my stuff back for me.  Not bringing everything back is a boundary that I have been able to have stick since the first blow-out in June.  I need to feel safe that I have a place to escape too, that there is a place I can have the kids at if necessary.  We are a lot closer to divorce than we are to reconciling and I have no interest in living in my car.

My parents place is a lifeline and I will not allow her to take that away.

Hoping for some peace, and maybe just maybe a change of hearts for a Christmas miracle.

Be well everyone.  Much love.   
-Oz

[kentavr3]

If woman does love bombing, most of the time she changes roles of a man who chasing woman to woman who chasing man. In this same moment the defending guard of a man goes down and man misses a lot of red flags. What is the answer? Do not be involved into love bombing. If you see intensive person, that means you'll have drama. Just stop for a moment and think.

[Radcliff]

Oz, you are dialed in perfectly.  You've got this!  Have a good Christmas.   

WW   

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, I'm with Wentworth: You've got this!  If you stay in the center and decline to participate in the drama, and hold the line on F-O-G like you're doing, you'll come through it fine.

Have a Merry Christmas,
LJ

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW, LJ!.  While I've only been on the boards for a few months, this has been a 3 year process for me.  It seems to be heading towards some sort of conclusion.  Frankly I feel like I can deal with it either way but it HAS to move.  Being stuck is killing me.
Going to enjoy playing some games and flying drones with my kids this weekend.  uBPDw can sulk in the corner, I'm getting to the point where IDGAF .

Cheers!
-Oz

[Radcliff]

Have fun with the girls and the drones!

WW

[ozmatoz]

Well here is the update... .it was good, then bad, then good, now bad.  Surprised?  Me neither.   I'll try to keep this short (yeah right... ).  But I may need help figuring out my part in these problems.

Friday before Christmas ran a few errands after work and we eventually went over to a friends house to hang out and watch the snow fall with a few other couples and let the kids play.  It was nice, I still felt a bit awkward, that the social situation was a bit forced.  I love our friends, but it felt to me the way she was acting and talking and projecting future times that she was completely ignoring anything that was going on.  She keeps telling me that she wants to live in the present... ok thats fine.  We can still have a great time, but I feel like she was putting on a show.  I felt like she was putting me on the spot to make it out like everything was great and if I wavered or disagreed I would be seen as the bad guy.  I couldn't tell if this was just another way of controlling me, or am I being overly sensitive here to her trying to have a positive outlook.  I feel like past behavior has me jaded rather than open and optimistic...   Thoughts?

Saturday was good, I did all the last minute running around in the terrible weather (always been my job, and I don't mind) she was busy cleaning and baking goods.  We communicated throughout the day and it felt rather "normal".  It was a bit chaotic of a day but I recall towards the end of the day getting together and enjoying some time as a family.

Sunday morning was good, last minute prep, decorating cookies, putting presents under the tree.  I could still feel some under currents of dismay but as I said previously I was going to ignore them.  My parents came over, we had fun, ate tons of food, drank far too much wine and it felt like home.  My parents spent the night (as they have for years) and again it all felt "ok"

Xmas day we wake up its snowing like crazy, the kids are opening presents,  uBPDw and I each got each other a very thoughtful gift that took some serious effort on both parts.  Then she "one upped" me.  She got me some stereo equipment that while cool and awesome, I really didnt need, couldn't really use with the setup we had, and frankly we had already talked about not going overboard with each other.  Now I'm stuck in the position of looking ungrateful.  I'm not sure if its me that I feel bad that I didnt have extra for her or I'm mad that she spent an extra $1,500 when we already dropped over $2k on the rest of the family.  (side note here, she had bad xmas experience as a kid so every year its a fight over spending WAY too much, I've long since given up and do my best to budget it in).  Just like in the relationship I feel stuck.  She's again put me in a position to accept something or look like a jerk.  I think she at some point sensed my discomfort and didnt push it, which was great.  Then the trouble starts.  The plow guy she hired came by and just did a quick hit because my parents car was in the driveway.  I had previously asked her not to hire a plow because the shape of our driveway makes it impossible to do correctly (I used to plow, I know). Now because of the extra car its a mess.  It will take me twice as long to clean up the plows mess than if I had just zipped out there on my own with the snow blower.  This isnt something new.  I have told her for 17 years not to hire a plow.  I will admit I got overly grumpy.  The pain point she pushed earlier by hiring a plow was now hitting me square in the face an hour before dinner on xmas.  I stormed out and said rather hastily that if she had listened to me I wouldnt have to be dealing with this now.  Of course the sarcastic remarks and passive aggressive behavior came out in full force.  Later in the night she was still mad even after I apologized for having a short temper.  She asked me to leave the bedroom which I refused because I wasnt going down that road again... .So she left and slept in D10's bed.

Fast forward to today, I'm at work receiving non stop texts telling me that I made my choice not to move back in permanently so therefore its no longer my home again... .  here we go back on the wagon again.  I told her I was keeping some items at my parents house because the break helped us before, we made need it again.  I also reminded her that she on several occasions threw my clothes around the house, out the window, ripped up old notes and broke special items therefore I was keeping some of that stuff out of the house until she could comfortably tell me that she would no longer engage in that behavior.  I don't know if that was the wrong thing to do. Part of me feels like by having stuff elsewhere its feeding into her abandonment issues, but for me, I'm just sick and tired of hauling it back and forth waiting for her to exploded and trash it all again.  I don't think she realizes how that affected me. 

I guess I've been down the rabbit hole so long I don't know what is appropriate, where the self love/selfish line is, and when I'm actually the one being a stubborn ass.  The self doubt and confusion is really getting to me.  I feel like this really is it, if I don't move back fully its over, if I move back and there is too many open wounds its over... .just a wonderful way to live.

[DaddyBear77]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.