niece w/ BPD? Childhood/early teen signs?

[DogDancer]

Hello all,

I signed on yesterday after reading the boards for more than a month now. I'm at 46-year-old woman healing from a relationship with a dxBPD mother -- my initial post has been moved over the the "Healing from" board. I want to post here, too, though, because although I *am* still healing, presently I have a 12-year-old niece who I am concerned might be developing BPD. Clearly, it is runs in our family, and my mother's BPD was idiopathic, not due to trauma.

My niece's emotional reactions and coping strategies are outside of normal teenaged mood fluctuations, with a lot of anger and hostility seemingly masking high levels of anxiety and fear. She has always experienced extreme emotions. She was "fired" by her music teacher at 10.5 and nearly fired by her basketball coach last year as well, for inappropriate, over the top, argumentative behaviors. I don't see full-on BPD yet, but I see the seeds... .     

I just spent nearly a week with her last week while her parents (my brother and sis-in-law) were traveling, and I could see what seemed very much like her painting me black and then white, and then shifting back to seemingly normal, lower-key reactions.

livednlearned was so kind in her initial greeting to me and shared some valuable resources that will surely help me! So glad that her son, who is eight (more codep not BPD), has benefitted hugely from professional help! Thank you, lnl!

However, if anyone wants to share signs/symptoms/behaviors that they have seen in children/relatives between ages 6-12, I'm all ears.

Peace and continued healing,

DogDancer

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mamachelle]

Hi DogDancer

There was just an interesting thread last week on this:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=192526.msg12185951#msg12185951

Hopefully you can get there from this link above.

I have a SS10 that I see as a slow train wreck into full blown BPD some day unfortunately.

If you are directly involved in her care then there are great resources for parenting here.

[sunshineplease]

Between 6-12, my ud17 had increasing difficulties in school (not able to "make herself" do work she found hard, even though she is smart). She also had  problems dealing with the social scene, in that she was ultra-aware of what was going on with "cool" peers but confused because she wanted to be cool without engaging in behaviors they were (meanness, then, as the kids got older, things like smoking). She spent inordinate amounts of time getting ready for school -- picking clothes and jewelry (her emotional armor) with such care she rarely made it to the bus on time. Since she's a "quiet BPD," she didn't act out; she was the "good girl" in everyone's eyes, but never seemed happy at home, and never felt she was good enough.

I think your niece is lucky to have someone in her life who sees the need for intervention. I wish I'd had Valerie Porr's book -- and known about validation and SET -- when my child was 12.   

[DogDancer]

Thank you mamachelle and sunshineplease for your responses. I so appreciate this input.

I was able to get into the thread to which you posted the link. Between what you both said and the many posts on the previous thread, there is a lot to think about. The oversensitivity, the stubbornness, the masking, the extreme emotions breaking out from the masking: these are all familiar.

I am so aware that children's personalities are shifting and under construction, as it were, and some things that would be clearly BPD in adults can be part of normal stages of development. However, it's the *degree* to which I see behaviors in my niece that worries me, particularly given the level of anxiety and fear that seems to be behind the hostility, or certainly visible after a hostile (or walking right up to outright hostile) outburst. At six she sobbed inconsolably near bedtime for weeks on end at the realization that people die, was obsessed with the idea that her parents might die, and was very angry with herself for not both not being able to comprehend death (!) as well as angry with herself and "I'm sorry, I"m sorry, I'm sorry" that she couldn't seem to get a grip on herself over it. At seven, she was furious with herself that she was having trouble tying her shoe. I believe the hostility and negativity she displays -- lots of accusatory, judgmental statements directed at the adults around her -- is defensive -- and that it is her coping method for fear, and perhaps as was discussed on the other thread, for despair.

One other thought: I found it really interesting in the previous thread that some of the initial Dx that their children had before eventually being diagnosed as BPD *were* Aspergers/bipolar. I've wondered at the possible connection between Aspergers/BPD before -- and that's not surprising given that my nephew, her brother does have a textbook case of Aspergers.

I am not a primary caretaker, but I do have influence and a certain level of closeness with my brother and sister-in-law. I am going to start addressing the situation as soon as I can engage them. I will purchase Porr's book, and the one livednleanred suggestion on validation. Again, I don't believe my niece has full-blown BPD yet, but something clearly outside of healthy and normal bounds has been going on for years. I *will* be an advocate for her. In between these behaviors she *is* a good, loving girl, with a fine mind. But these behaviors are so pervasive... .  and due to them, the truth is, much of the time she is about as charming as a heavy, muddy boot. Her parents are not dealing with this -- denial? Too overwhelmed by their Aspergers son?

This is clearly waving a lot of flags for me, and also ringing my own bells a *lot.* I'm still healing from my deceased mother's BPD behavior, and I'm fairly raw right now due to the level of work I'm currently doing on/with myself in therapy... .  However, I *know* what I see, and I see a progression, and I'm 100 percent certain I'm not overlaying my own stuff onto this. My niece deserves an advocate. I love her. I want her to be happy and healthy. THAT is my motivation! Thanks for your support. None of this is easy.

Peace and continuing healing to all of us,

DogDancer

[vivekananda]

good luck dogdancer,

Porr's book is an excellent resource.

I wanted to add one thing, even if your niece doesn't have BPD etc, the validation skills addressed in Porr and extended with other authors, eg  Lunberg's "You don't have to make everything better' are excellent resources for any human being. It is somethng we should all learn how to do - our world would be a better place for it. I know your niece would benefit regardless.

cheers,

Vivek    

[DogDancer]

Thank you, Vivek . I've enjoyed reading other comments you've made on the boards. Thank you for taking the time to comment here.

I am sure you are right; it makes total sense that the validation skills in Porr and others will be good ones no matter what the situation is... .  or isn't. I've actually decided that the validation book is where I will start; I think it will be most palatable to my brother, and I don't want to trigger him (he's waaaay behind coming to terms with things from our FOO than the rest of us), nor do I want to catastrophize the situation unnecessarily. Let's HOPE my niece doesn't have have BPD yet! Steering her away from that path (if possible) and increased healthy coping skills is the goal here.

Peace to you,

DogDancer   

[DogDancer]

Hello all,

I'd tried to reach my brother more than once, unsuccessfully, to talk about my concerns about Niece. He did try back, twice, unsuccessfully, to reach me. Each time he was not really alone -- busy ferrying children to activities -- even though I'd said I need to talk to him privately. 

I've been reading, and posting, and processing, and purposefully (mindfully) thinking about how I feel about all of it -- my healing from my deceased dxPBD mom, the worries about my niece's emotional dysregulation and coping strategies, my golden-child middle bro's knowledge of/denial about the BPD, what tends to trigger him, how I could be most effective in advocating for my niece. I was getting anxious, worrying that I might not be successful, wondering how I'd ever catch bro alone. I do believe he intuits what I'm going to say, and I know he both wants/doesn't want to hear it. Wanting to get the first step done. NOT wanting to avoid more (a fear).

So... .  I was purposefully writing on the boards here late into the night last night to process more as well as to support others -- the act of supporting also being so validating; we've all dealt with so much that is similar. I was self-soothing by posting on other's threads. Trying not to be anxious. Knowing that I have committed to NOT avoiding this and to being an advocate for Niece... .  

It hit me, then, what will be most effective way to handle this with my brother: Write all that I have to say down. I thought, I will post to him. I will email him a letter about Niece. I had backed myself into a corner that it *had* to be verbal interaction, but I also know he's got little time, and possibly, hesitation and avoidance about beginning to deal with this issue with Niece, since I suspect he does know, on some level, that this might have something to do with BPD, and he is not ready to hear that, and nothing he and SIL have tried -- and they have tried -- has worked so far. Too much FOG for him, no work yet in dealing with mom's stuff, his own denial/anxiety/fear. What to do, what to do.

As I said, I had been getting really anxious, and despite knowing that I cannot control his decision per se whether or not to listen to me (fears about more invalidation) or to get Niece help (worst fear), but I know that I want and need to be clear and convincing. I know I need to present a case, to show through narrative not just tell, the patterns that I've seen and what they might be and why they are concerning.

Guess what... .  although I do prefer conversation, I am SO MUCH better at writing!

So this astounding eureka solution (I'm chuckling) came to me after posting in response to Thimble's thread last night in which I said that I am a professionally trained writer. I had to SEE it in writing that I can write. LOL! DOH! I realized there is no law requiring me to verbally convey my concerns to my brother. In fact, it will give *him* room to breathe and process and work on his feelings and his response and not be triggered if I write to him.

I stepped out of the box I had created! 

So... .  I did it. It's seven pages, and I might be rambling a little here, giddy out of relief, but d8mn if I'm not a really good, convincing rhetorical writer! I've laid out all of it, with vignettes depicting examples of how the behaviors started early and have been going on, my realizations about her likely masking fear and anxiety, her despair at not being able to internally regulate the way she knows the adults want her to, how the outbursts seem to operate as a defense mechanism, her shame afterwards, with plenty of examples from her life that highlight that this is and has been pervasive and is not sudden-onset "normal pre-teen moodiness."

I've also validated, validated, validated bro and SIL with loving, truthful praise through many examples of how I've seen them do so much so well with their family. I've also validated my own expertise and my own participation in previously figuring out Nephew's stuff - my demonstrated commitment and record of good intentions born out in achieving solutions. In essence, I have constructed a solid, solid convincing argument for what is going on, how it's unfolded, what's at stake, and what can -- with much hope for positive change and great outcomes -- be done to help Niece. I've carefully, also, laid out numerous breadcrumbs about BPD, without bringing it up in direct reference to Niece, although I did explicitly list it in a laundry list of what we know to be lurking in our gene pool, including Aspergers, BPD, bipolar, addiction, depression. I've even said that I don't think she's got any of the things in our pool yet, but that my concern is that she is primed for intractable longer-term problems is she does not help.

I've talked about validation as a key technique, which they are likely familiar with from Nephew's Aspergers work, about CBT, and I *even* mentioned DBT as a type of CBT used successfully with people who have even serious emotional dysregulation. Ha. NO direct mention there of BPD as being what I am thinking of. But he ain't no dummy. If he hasn't already, he'll track it down... .  when he's ready. I'm just laying out the trail, gently leading the horse to water.

So. I'm really pleased with myself. How obvious solutions can seem when we look at other's situations, and how veiled they can be when were trying to work on our own!

Tomorrow a.m., I will read it one more time, and then I will send it.

Thank you all for the positive attention, for your thoughtful responses, for your validating/nonjudgmental acceptance of me and each other. You're helping conquer more mountains. Thank you, friends.

I'll keep you posted. I'm feeling lots of hope. 

Peace and continued healing,

DogDancer

[DogDancer]

Hello all,

So... .  I did it. I read my seven-page letter on my concerns about Niece to my T this afternoon. She asked me what I wanted from her regarding it. I said, just listen to me read it, and be my witness. She did and said she thought it was spot on, and really well written and applauded me, again, for stepping -- in a way -- out of my focussing on my own BPD healing to advocate for my Niece. Although, we both agree that this is, everything, is also part of the journey.

So... .  I came home. Attended to a few other business emails. And then I sent it to bro. I just attached to an email in which I said I knew we weren't going to get enough time to talk privately but that I didn't want to wait to address what I was concerned about, and that this way he'd have plenty of time to privately digest it and reflect, and then we could talk about it. I told him to tell my SIL and the the kids I loved them, and that I think about them every day and wonder what sort of silly fun they are up, and how their trials and tribulations are going. I said I love uyou, Bro, and that I might not tell him enough, but I do.

Then I hit send.

Whew. Good for me.   That's a self-hug. Now here's a good job: 

Thanks for supporting me in this. I'll let you know what goes on with Niece.

Peace and even more ongoing healing for us,

DogDancer

[lbjnltx]

Greetings to you DogDancer,

I'm late to the meeting!  I apologize... .  better late than never I guess.

It is wonderful that you are stepping up as an advocate for your niece.  Raising a child that is sensitive emotionally and has destructive behaviors while parenting another special needs child can surely keep parents in a state of fog.  An objective observation from a third party can help bring some light into the situation and give them some direction and clarity from which to operate. 

I have read some of your posts here on the site... .  you are indeed a very convincing writer... .  a strong voice.  There are times when others will hear us... .  when they are ready... .  and times when they won't... when they are not ready.  Over the years, I have developed a mantra of sorts... .  we can  create opportunities, we can't orchestrate the outcome.  When we love someone... .  it becomes difficult to let go of the outcome we hope for.  We can only hope for the outcome without allowing ourselves to feel like we have failed... .    I hope that you will not be hard on yourself if the outcome is not the one you hope for or it doesn't come when you hope it will.   You can only do what you can do.  

I think it is quite common for caregivers and advocates to forget to take care of self... .  I hope that you will continue to focus on your personal journey towards healing.  Helping others... .  seeing self in others, can be part of our own healing as long as we do it simultaneously with our own core work. 

Regarding bi polar diagnoses in children... .  there is a trend (that is lessening in recent years) that clinicians will give this dx due to a) insurance coverage b) resistance to making a dx of a PD in children or adolescents c) miss diagnoses.  There is however, a significant rate of comorbidity of BPD and Bi Polar... .  if you let your mind go "there", you can see why a Bipolar child could go on to develop BPD due to the difficulties they experience while untreated ie... .  invalidation, shame, guilt, etc.

I am wondering... .  in your letter to your brother, did you suggest a psychiatric testing for your niece?

I also wanted to make you aware of a resource... .  a DBT parenting book.  "Parenting a Child with Intense Emotions: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills to Help Your Child Regulate Emotional Outbursts and Aggressive Behaviors" by Harvey and Penzo.

This resource is not about BPD... .  it is about what a parent can do to help their child.  The basic skills of DBT for parents... .  

I hope that my words are helpful to you.  My daughter, now 16, was diagnosed with emerging BPD at age 12... .  it is a journey of twists, turns, confusion, fear, love, faith and success.

 

lbjnltx

[mamachelle]

I also wanted to make you aware of a resource... .  a DBT parenting book.  "Parenting a Child with Intense Emotions: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills to Help Your Child Regulate Emotional Outbursts and Aggressive Behaviors" by Harvey and Penzo.

This resource is not about BPD... .  it is about what a parent can do to help their child.  The basic skills of DBT for parents... .  

I hope that my words are helpful to you.  My daughter, now 16, was diagnosed with emerging BPD at age 12... .  it is a journey of twists, turns, confusion, fear, love, faith and success.

 

lbjnltx

This is a great book and it is like a bedside bible at times.

Many or most clinicians have never heard of this book that I've run across. I found or about it here on the boards last year. I apply to all 3 of my SS.

I've also encountered pushback as you may DogDancer. It takes a big reality shift or crisis for many parents to see the light.

In my case, as stepmom I was able to act without the guilt that bio parents and inlaws have over things that cause them to not listen or seek care.

Gotta go. Hope all is going well.

[DogDancer]

Thank you, lbjnitx and mamachelle,

Wise words, both of you. Thank you for taking the time to help me.   I had seen "Parenting a Child with Intense Emotions: Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills to Help Your Child Regulate Emotional Outbursts and Aggressive Behaviors" by Harvey and Penzo. I've just ordered a raft of books on BPD, and some that explain CBT as well as one on DBT, and one written for teens about dealing with strong emotions, but without assigning any sort of label... .  

I will add this one, too. Getting information and educating myself has always been a key step in dealing with... .  anything! It helps with the intellectual grasp, and in formulating action steps. It's also a first step in girding yourself, as it were, for what may come... .  such as major emotional processing in which you have to do to squeal, feel, deal, heal.  And including, as you say, to prepare for outcomes that are not what we want and for which we hope.

lbjnitx, I did not specifically say psychiatric testing, I didn't want to say those words, yet, but... .  I emphasized over and over, professional help, a professional psychologist, CBT, and even dropped breadcrumbs... .  like mentioning a DBT as a form of CBT. I figured that the psychiatric testing will be part of the roadmap if we can just get Niece on the on-ramp... .  Good call, though, to keep that in mind for specific mention in continued discussions.   

THANK YOU for sensitively cushioning for me for the possibility that my brother and SIL might not be ready to hear what I'm saying or make the needed move to get help for my niece. You're spot on. I know this could happen. I've been reading here and elsewhere about the idea of radical acceptance. I spoke with my T about this Wednesday, and said that I accept that I cannot control everything, much the same way, that my bro and SIL have done their best, and have not been able to bear, mold and parent Niece so far into the smart, happy, positive girl who breathes easily in her own skin that they, surely, surely, had dreamed she would be -- and yet, they still love my Niece. I do, too.

I will stay hopeful. I will continue to advocate for Niece. I am prepared that it might take a few passes; it took longer than it should have for them (us) to get Nephew his Aspergers Dx and get him rolling with the right help, too, but it did happen, and i helped that happen as well, all of which bodes well. I also know that my bro and SIL are loving and smart, and I do believe they will take what i say into serious consideration.

Bless you, both, for all the steadfast parenting and advocating and pushing back and self-educating and self-healing that you've done for and with your children and for yourselves. I promise you and myself (and T) that I will keep pushing forward in my own healing; I have come to see this part with Niece and family as part of it, not a stop in it, and not a hinderance either. I *know* what I need to do for myself, and nothing and no one, including myself, will stop me from continued progress. I am committed to me most of all. It works out best for everyone that way.   

Big hugs - and Peace and a WHOLE lot of healing for us all,

DogDancer

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[DogDancer]

Hi all,

No word from bro so far. But, it's hasn't been that long. I just sent the letter/email addressing concerns about Niece on Wednesday evening. He might not have even checked his email for a day or two. I don't know if he checks his personal email every day.

Anyway, I expected that he might want to take some time to think about this. I had even suggested that he reflect on it and then we'd talk -- I used that word on purpose, too.

I am practicing patience, and I am holding in my hands, in front of me, both my fears and my hopes, sitting with all of it at the same time, acknowledging what I cannot control, but not letting fears or anxiety take over.

My sig other read a copy of the letter tonight; he thought it was really strong, and written from a loving place. He knows my bro and SIL quite well. His feedback was quite reassuring, and he agrees with all that I've said. We had a good talk about BPD for a while, and that felt good. I haven't shared a lot of my healing process because it's felt like mostly my work, my progress, mine... .  and I needed it to be. However, now, this felt right. I even encouraged him to read "Understanding the Borderline Mother." He said he'd be interested. I think this might be helpful for both of us.

Funny little Freudian slip... .  I just wrote "I think this might be *hopeful* for both of us," and then caught myself. Maybe I meant that, too. 

Sending out those healing, helpful, hopeful thoughts to the Universe. Will let some more time go by with mindful patience. Sometimes the best next step, the one thing we really must do... .  is nothing else... .  but wait and see.

Peace and healing for us all,

DogDancer

[DogDancer]

Hi all,

No word from bro regarding my letter about my concerns for Niece. It was two weeks ago on Wednesday that I sent it. I got back Tuesday night from my business trip. I've been sick and recovering, but it looks like I will have to call him to talk about this. Will see how it goes. I'm trying to detach some from this (some), and approach it as a problem-solving reach out -- a loving one. I'm so aware that this is triggering for me -- him? -- because of the many unresolved undercurrents created by our dxBPD mother.

I'll wait until this weekend, although even then it's just so hard to catch him alone. Trying not to feel that old companion, anxiety, and instead to feel centered and calm. My motivation is love, and if he is not open to this discussion now, it does not mean the conversation will/must be ugly. I have decided that if he is waffling, I will press forward and compel. If he really is not open to Niece getting counseling now, I will ask him to work with me on this -- and to commit to observing and making notes for himself of her pattern to see how it goes over the next three months, and to talk with me about it. He is an engineer, and I suspect he will be open to this even if he is not open to the other now.

I'll post about this again when there is something to say.

Thank you, friends, for the support you've shown on this, my ongoing, family narrative.

Peace and healing,

DogDancer