Mixing punishment/validation and reward-- not sure if this is working?

[mamachelle]

It's 11:30 am and I have already unplugged a toilet, broken up 3 fights. been told that I was hated. Been told that I was lying. Been lied to...

I realise that most of you on this board are dealing with very serious issues so my stuff seems small, but the more I see that SS10 is not learning from his mistakes, and he is seemingly less mature than his siblings were at his age, and I see all the stuff that these older kids with BPD are capable of I just want to try to get a few things better before he hits puberty full on.

I have a SS10  (Dx emerging bipolar that I think has many BPD traits) that is very difficult to parent on days off from school (today) especially. This morning he has already plugged the toilet really badly and eaten food he was not supposed to eat. He has fought with his brother involving physical contact and the list goes on.

We are using a reward system. SS8 and SS10 start at $1 a day and lose .25 for infractions... .  

So this morning when I discovered SS10 plugged the toilet. I took a few deep breaths, called him back to bathroom

and said,

"Ok you just lost .50 for doing this."

He was livid and angry and denying. He said he hated me... .  the usual.

I said,

"well. I was going to take you to a movie today but I guess I won't now"

That worked to pop his brain back into gear.

Later he stole fortune cookies that he was told not to eat and his little brother SS8 told on him.

I said

Well you just lost another .25

Again, anger, denial, the usual.

I said, well it's done it's done. you lost the .25, do you want to go to your room now. You are no longer being punished.

Anger, door slamming.

It works, but my question is, just because it works and there is a punishment or lack of reward is that the way a kid w/ BPD traits learns or do I need to mix in more validation?

Did any of you start with reward systems when your kids were little or are using them now?

Should he be unplugging the toilet to solve his own problems?

Should I be asking him how to solve his bathroom and compulsive eating issues?

I just get soo understandably frustrated... I just want to fix it and move on and validating is soo hard some days. His therapist talks through stuff with him but he really needs the immediate reinforcement because nothing he talks about seems to carry over to real life most of the time.

I just feel like he never learns. SS8 seems to learn some. SS10 I am still dealing with the same bathroom and eating and behavior issues I have since he was 4. Just slightly different but still the same basic stuff.

I am also having his neuropsych and pdoc re-open his case because I think there is some other thing going on like tourettes or an autism spectrum thing with his behaviors. I have lost the behavior therapist coming in to the home because he doesn't have a dx autism spectrum disorder. I feel like i'm nuts but I think he really has autistic behaviors. we'll see.

Ugg. I need a break.

Any suggestions for the pre-puberty set would be appreciated... .  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mamachelle]

Thank you twojaybirds

I just looked it up and read some sample pages.

I have read Parenting a child with Intense Emotions and You don't have to make everything all better and I am going to read Brain Based Parenting

This Love and Logic looks practical and simple and so I welcome anything simple at this point. A year ago I was a complete parenting mess with this child and now we have come so far... .  but I see the problems with reward systems as they curb behavior but they don't really teach consequences. I need another layer here and hopefully this will be it.

We ended up not going to the movie today and were able to compromise on the library and starbucks instead. I am trying to get some work done at home. quiet now, thankful for those quiet moments.

[qcarolr]

It works, but my question is, just because it works and there is a punishment or lack of reward is that the way a kid w/ BPD traits learns or do I need to mix in more validation?

Did any of you start with reward systems when your kids were little or are using them now?

Should he be unplugging the toilet to solve his own problems?

Should I be asking him how to solve his bathroom and compulsive eating issues?

I just get soo understandably frustrated... I just want to fix it and move on and validating is soo hard some days. His therapist talks through stuff with him but he really needs the immediate reinforcement because nothing he talks about seems to carry over to real life most of the time.

I just feel like he never learns. SS8 seems to learn some. SS10 I am still dealing with the same bathroom and eating and behavior issues I have since he was 4. Just slightly different but still the same basic stuff.

Wow, what a tough day you are having. Sometimes each action feels so intentional and manupulative. It is hard to stop and focus on the layer beneath the behaviors.

Reward charts were always very short term useful in managing my DD's behavior's when she was school-age. I grew too exhausted to change it up every week. And the behavior goals were never really met, only momentarily delayed. Validation is very very different from behavior management.

You ask if he should be 'able' to solve the bathroom and eating issues on his own. He has struggled with this for a long time - maybe he cannot control this yet and the punishment-consequences serve to make him feel increased shame. He wants to do the right thing - he wants to feel loved and accepted by you.

I really gained a lot of practical suggestions for the book "Parenting a Child with Intense Emotions". I have gone back through it several times in coping with my gd7 over the past couple of years. I also had some guidance from a good family T who was familiar with DBT skills (for me). She also did a good job validating ME - which helped me to be more sincere in using these skills.

Some forms of validation that have worked for me include:

-sitting quietly and listening (after sitting by the door with my gd on the bed until I can safely sit beside her - she was a scratcher/biter, sometimes after she is in there with door shut for five minutes of 'cool-down' time)

-Actually telling her I am there to listen carefully, and then be able to keep quiet and listen

-Acknowleging her feelings, even offering to give "three guesses" about what she is feeling. Let her tell me if I are hot or cold with my guesses

-Trying to understand, to feel with her, what she is able to tell me.

-Then to talk about the behaviors that happened and brainstorm ideas for next time. Only get to the behavior part when we are both calm.

This is a new pattern of response - it took lots of tries. Can you work out, during a calm time, this plan with both your boys? A plan for d8 to have cool down time in his room - with a favorite play activity (book, game, toy, etc) while you sit with d10 during his cool down time. And if d8 is more distressed, ask d10 to take his cool down time in his room while you sit with d8.

There are times now when grandma take the cool down time in her room, when she is feeling very angry and disappointed. Gd will come and ask me if I am cooled off and can come back downstairs now. It works in all directions.

This is just one example from this book. Whatever you use to validate him has to be acceptable to him.

Remember that accepting what your son feels is not agreeing with the behaviors that come out of those feelings. The Brain Based Parenting book explains the authors model called PACE (Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity, Empathy). It is covered in the second part of the book after all the brain activity explanations. I started in the front, skipped to the application of PACE, then went back and read the brain stuf last. Was well worth reading for me.

Let us know how things are going for you.

qcr

Hope this is not too overwhelming for you. Let me know what you think of these ideas.

qcr  

[mamachelle]

Wow, what a tough day you are having. Sometimes each action feels so intentional and manupulative. It is hard to stop and focus on the layer beneath the behaviors.

Reward charts were always very short term useful in managing my DD's behavior's when she was school-age. I grew too exhausted to change it up every week. And the behavior goals were never really met, only momentarily delayed. Validation is very very different from behavior management.

You ask if he should be 'able' to solve the bathroom and eating issues on his own. He has struggled with this for a long time - maybe he cannot control this yet and the punishment-consequences serve to make him feel increased shame. He wants to do the right thing - he wants to feel loved and accepted by you.

I really gained a lot of practical suggestions for the book "Parenting a Child with Intense Emotions". I have gone back through it several times in coping with my gd7 over the past couple of years. I also had some guidance from a good family T who was familiar with DBT skills (for me). She also did a good job validating ME - which helped me to be more sincere in using these skills.

Some forms of validation that have worked for me include:

-sitting quietly and listening (after sitting by the door with my gd on the bed until I can safely sit beside her - she was a scratcher/biter, sometimes after she is in there with door shut for five minutes of 'cool-down' time)

-Actually telling her I am there to listen carefully, and then be able to keep quiet and listen

-Acknowleging her feelings, even offering to give "three guesses" about what she is feeling. Let her tell me if I are hot or cold with my guesses

-Trying to understand, to feel with her, what she is able to tell me.

-Then to talk about the behaviors that happened and brainstorm ideas for next time. Only get to the behavior part when we are both calm.

This is a new pattern of response - it took lots of tries. Can you work out, during a calm time, this plan with both your boys? A plan for d8 to have cool down time in his room - with a favorite play activity (book, game, toy, etc) while you sit with d10 during his cool down time. And if d8 is more distressed, ask d10 to take his cool down time in his room while you sit with d8.

There are times now when grandma take the cool down time in her room, when she is feeling very angry and disappointed. Gd will come and ask me if I am cooled off and can come back downstairs now. It works in all directions.

This is just one example from this book. Whatever you use to validate him has to be acceptable to him.

Remember that accepting what your son feels is not agreeing with the behaviors that come out of those feelings. The Brain Based Parenting book explains the authors model called PACE (Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity, Empathy). It is covered in the second part of the book after all the brain activity explanations. I started in the front, skipped to the application of PACE, then went back and read the brain stuf last. Was well worth reading for me.

Let us know how things are going for you.

qcr

Hope this is not too overwhelming for you. Let me know what you think of these ideas.

qcr  

Thanks qcr

You have some great suggestions here. yes, I really really need to be better with the quiet times. I do love that parenting a child with intense emotions and I have started reading brain based parenting and have been reading your posts and am already seeing areas where I am blocked.

One of my blocked areas is caused by my revulsion to his bathroom behavior. His not washing hands means no one wants to touch things he has touched. I feel physically just grossed out. He lies about washing hands all the time. I can be 2 feet away from him and watching him run water over his hands and  see he hasn't used soap and he is lying to me saying he did.

So what we say now is, ok, well, please wash them again... .  

Sometimes he just says ok.

Other times he just weeps and says why don't we believe him, he DID wash his hands.

Remaining calm, saying There is no absolute truth.

Why does a child not wash his hands over and over and over? What is that emotion? How can I get to that place and understand?

SO No not overwhelming. I just thank God for these boards again lately. The advice I get here is often better and also augments the Ts. In my case we have about 3 or 4 working with SS10.

[qcarolr]

Hand washing - we have a great big bottle of "GERMX" hand sanitizer at each sink in the house. ($4 at Walgreens)  Quick and easy -- good enough when hands not too grimy. It kills the germ if rubbed in until it 'disappears'.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

hi mamachelle,

Our gs7 is also somewhere on the autism spectrum and does NOT like to wash his hands properly, just squirts some soap and runs water over his hands quickly without rubbing, hates warm water, saying it is too hot, etc. We haven't had the opportunity to work with him on this and our usd32 has too much on her own personal plate. Don't know what eating habits are with your ss10, but kids with autism often have very quirky likes and dislikes as to food. There are some empirical studies that suggest that some of them are negatively affected by wheat and sugar, but often that is what they crave, sometimes refuse to eat other foods, but all the while it makes their symptoms worse... .  (hope that is of some help?)

My personal discovery with him was that (typical for autism) he repeats some of his behaviors in exact patterns, so to get him to change, there has to be a sort of re-wiring of his patterns. He also easily distracts, so when something is important, we found out that working one-on one with him and keeping him on track works best. He is also rather defiant at times, and we found out that giving him a couple of acceptable options to chose from works better that the power-struggle of "you will do this-no I won't".

Also a thought on the reward/punishment system: What happens when they lose all of their quarters for the day and still do something bad? Do you maybe have a way for them to earn it back?

Some of the books on BPD and even regular parenting books suggest, that the course of action with a "failing" child should be through encouraging and praising the positive (finding something to praise, even though it might be hard to find) and then slowly gently shaping the other behaviors toward positive change.

Also, positive personal connection with them is important, and that may prove to be a tough nut to crack with a kid on the autistic spectrum... .  They live in their own world and ours is sometimes threatening to them. I read several wonderful books by a lady with autism, describing what it's like "Nobody Nowhere", "Somebody Somewhere", and I can't remember the title to the third one... .  

[mamachelle]

hi mamachelle,

Our gs7 is also somewhere on the autism spectrum and does NOT like to wash his hands properly, just squirts some soap and runs water over his hands quickly without rubbing, hates warm water, saying it is too hot, etc. We haven't had the opportunity to work with him on this and our usd32 has too much on her own personal plate. Don't know what eating habits are with your ss10, but kids with autism often have very quirky likes and dislikes as to food. There are some empirical studies that suggest that some of them are negatively affected by wheat and sugar, but often that is what they crave, sometimes refuse to eat other foods, but all the while it makes their symptoms worse... .  (hope that is of some help?)

My personal discovery with him was that (typical for autism) he repeats some of his behaviors in exact patterns, so to get him to change, there has to be a sort of re-wiring of his patterns. He also easily distracts, so when something is important, we found out that working one-on one with him and keeping him on track works best. He is also rather defiant at times, and we found out that giving him a couple of acceptable options to chose from works better that the power-struggle of "you will do this-no I won't"

hi pessimoptomist

SS10 older brother is on the autism spectrum. He is now 15 but was dx just before he turned 14. SS10 as he gets older acts more like SS15 and he has his mother's BPD traits and some enmeshment with her-- with the emotional dysreg, dramatic behaviors, dramatic remorseful thinking, black/white thinking. SS10 is on lamictal since a year ago and it has helped with the emotional dysreg as well his school work.

The more i post about his less dramatic but problematic/idiosyncratic behaviors, the more i am hearing that he seems like he is on the autism spectrum. We had a BT coming to the house who was trained in ABA which is Applied Behavior analysis and she had developed with us a series of charts and rules and a reward system. We built it slowly and it has helped to eliminate or mostly eliminate about 50% of these issues like fighting incessantly with his brother, attacking brother, screaming at parents for food or what have you. Crazy Demands, some of the Op Defiant stuff. Also we  had the BT  work both with SS8 and SS10 so we were able to harness the competitive nature of the brothers to behave better.

Unfortunately we have lost the BT due to our insurance not paying unless a kid is on the autism spectrum. So I am trying very hard to have his case re looked at.

My H is a Non and BioBPD mom lives across the country now, so when we took SS10 in for testing last year my H was the one filling out most the parent  rating scales and forms. He under reports and normalizes which I had discovered through the results with my SS15. When SS15 was hospitalized for suicidal ideations and psychosis, the neuro psych had me re take the tests my H had done for SS15 to help get his proper school placement. He went from a less than 1% chance of Asperger's to like a 65% prob of asperger's on just one of the rating scales. SS15 had already been given the PDD-NOS dx due to SS own results but the parent results from my H had made the PDD_NOS a little less obvious. not sure if that makes sense.

So, anyway, I want to bring all this up with the docs and have an appt in 2 weeks with neuro psych.

Another problem is that with the BPD like behaviors i hear a lot of "oh drama" which is the code phrase with T's for you are just not dealing with the reality that he can control these behaviors but he just chooses not too. It is BS. I know, as he can control some of the acting out, but why the impulse to act out? I believe it is ties to impulse and neuro wiring and the manifesting of it, well, that is tied to his personality which we really can't change at this point. 

Also a thought on the reward/punishment system: What happens when they lose all of their quarters for the day and still do something bad? Do you maybe have a way for them to earn it back?

We were using an earning ticket system for 10 months. Tickets could be cashed in for rewards. They earned 1 ticket a day.

This was working, but then once they went to mom's for 7 weeks in the summer we needed to revitalize their interest as she has BPD an there is no way she could handle a reward system.

SO, when they got back, we started giving 2 tickets and then slowly that got old. My H was not doing enough to implement and the boys kept losing their tickets, stealing tickets, not caring about the 'stupid tickets'

So, I said money, they have older sibs and money is what these kids want. So I said let's work it in reverse and give them the benefit or the doubt and they have $1 automatically and then they lose .25 each time we feel they have done something bad enough to warrant a loss of .25,

It is working, I track it on the calendar and so they don't have to touch the money. It's also money which they can relate to.

If they go to 0 there is then time out. There can also be time out with loss of .25 but I try to reserve that if possible.

ANother one we have tried is loss of bed time stay up late time so they would have to go to bed at 9:25 versus 9;30.  It's hard to implement that with two kids but it worked for a while as each infraction lost 5 minutes. That was when we were on the ticket system.

Ugg, this stuff is hard, but it has been effective for now.

Some of the books on BPD and even regular parenting books suggest, that the course of action with a "failing" child should be through encouraging and praising the positive (finding something to praise, even though it might be hard to find) and then slowly gently shaping the other behaviors toward positive change.

Also, positive personal connection with them is important, and that may prove to be a tough nut to crack with a kid on the autistic spectrum... .  They live in their own world and ours is sometimes threatening to them. I read several wonderful books by a lady with autism, describing what it's like "Nobody Nowhere", "Somebody Somewhere", and I can't remember the title to the third one... .  

yes, with SS10 he loves praise and we do give it to him. However he is so much like his BPD bio mom that when he is getting praise he can also be so rude and also completely lacking in self esteem at the same time. It is hard to explain, but if you give him a little he wants more and more and then makes you feel bad for even praising sometimes. If you say he is a playing his cello great he says I want a bigger cello. If you say he is dancing well to that video he says he wants to be on TV and can you immediately record him for a dance contest. When I put him to bed on the night his dad works and I lean over to kiss and hug, he sometimes grabs me and demands a bear hug so hard it is more like a head lock. yes hug becoming a head lock... .  a very good metaphor with praise for SS10.

Alright, thanks again qcr, the hand sanitizing is good, we do use that sometimes.

Thanks all.  I need to reread and revisit and recharge my parenting batteries.

[lbjnltx]

Hello mamachelle,

I think the title of your post says alot.

Very confusing.  It seems that the initial reward system, that sends the message through concrete actions, that privileges are earned has become a punishment system (privileges are a gift and will be taken away due to poor behavior).

One is positive reinforcement and the other is punishment.

How can the system be restored to it's original mission and value?

[mamachelle]

lbjntx

yes, very confusing.   I do think it is still a type of reward system though and the BT thought so as well and approved of it. They were on the ticket system for 10 months so if you look at it in perspective then it is like they earned the $1 system,  It does work in it's own limited and not so perfect way-- as there is a $1 for them if they behave. They are  8 and 10 yo boys and seem to respond better to this than the ticket system for some reason. Money makes the world go round... .  

I find the praising and a physical reward for good behavior, the catching them being good, is exhausting because what you end up with is going back and forth all day long and I can't do it. Refuse to do it    Can't keep track... .  They will make these grand gestures to get a ticket or what have you and then when we turn around they are beating the crap out of eachother 

I think what I am getting at is how to build in both a reward and also consequences and get some changes. Yes, rethinking it is important and I am definitely thinking all this over as I see what is happening in my own family as each kid hits puberty as well as the posts here on teens and it is scary.

I feel like the reward or punishment system only works to build in structure and with SS10 is just not fixing his behavior. It curbs it, represses it, makes it less of a problem, but what happens when he outgrows this whole reward system.

I think that is where I am concerned that there is some autistic stuff going on which needs the BT or more serious rewiring. I also think there is BPD here which is why I have been posting on the board. I am being told at this age it is "drama" or "just sensory" but not being given real help by the Ts. They live in an hour every other week world with SS10 and do not see the complete picture. I want to use more of the DBT stuff but sometimes I just short circuit as I feel like there is piece of the puzzle missing or pieces missing. not sure this makes sense.

Also, some of this ties into family dynamics and with 6 kiddos in the house, there is a need to have these kids have some autonomy and independence.

[pessim-optimist]

Hi mamachelle,

Sounds like you are already doing a lot of the good stuff. 

Give yourself a pat on the back! You are doing great under the circumstances. (I know a small consolation when there are problems, but important   )

It often IS in the particular details when it gets complicated... .  

Go with your gut, I think sometimes we don't give ourselves the credit when some professionals tell us otherwise and it just doesn't sound right... .  

I also felt much like lbj , just couldn't put it so well (so concise; short, sweet and to the point! - can I have you come live in my head too?  )

Another good book that I read recently is "The Birth Order Book" by Kevin Lehman. It has lots of good info on how order of birth influences each of the kids' personalities. He also has a great chapter on blending families and what troubles may arise from that and how to potentially deal with it... .  It might give you some insight?

[mamachelle]

Hi mamachelle,

Sounds like you are already doing a lot of the good stuff. 

Give yourself a pat on the back! You are doing great under the circumstances. (I know a small consolation when there are problems, but important   )

It often IS in the particular details when it gets complicated... .  

Go with your gut, I think sometimes we don't give ourselves the credit when some professionals tell us otherwise and it just doesn't sound right... .  

thanks, thanks. I just watched this video of blaise aguirre talking about adolescent BPD and it blew my mind.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4KjxxPp3Ls&feature=player_detailpage

He is talking about BPD being a reverse autism and also putting it in the context of a larger neuro developmental issue.

I have to figure out how to get this info to my Ts without stepping on toes. The neuropsych told me last year 90% of BPD cases were due to abuse.

This week the psychologist for SS10 told me when I described all these behaviors in an eloquent email that this was "drama" and she would talk with him at their next session about bathroom checklists.

Oh well, another job for another day. I will send the T's the link and maybe some other ones and try to present my case for more effective therapies and help. Plain ol' Talk therapy and a dysfunctional reward system (as you all have pointed out) just aren't going to help make things better in the long run.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[inkling16]

Rewards and punishments never worked for my dd17 at any age, and also didn't work for my brother, who was never diagnosed but had a lot of BPD traits as a child and teenager. DD didn't act up in the types of ways you're describing, but she did shirk chores and schoolwork and was capable of really epic tantrums when told "no" about anything at all, or just out of the blue sometimes. We have always made her allowance contingent on cleaning her room, and she has foregone literally thousands of dollars over the years because she can't make herself do it.

To be "fair," my parents tried to use the same money-based reward-punishment system for both my brother and me, but I was well behaved and got good grades, which meant that I made out like a bandit at report-card time, and the system never had any effect whatsoever on his school performance. Meanwhile, they were always taking money off his allowance for infractions, but they would lose track of what they had said, so they couldn't make it stick at allowance time. So it was fairly disastrous all around, and not good for my brother's and my relationship, either. I don't remember how long it lasted, but I do remember our parents spending a lot of time at their wit's end.

I remember feeling the feelings that you're having when our dd was 10, and I think you're lucky that you're figuring out this early what the problem is. But if your T is telling you it's "just drama," what the hell does that mean? Any kid who feels the need for this level of drama has something going on, right?

[mamachelle]

Hi inkling16

Thanks for your comments.

I may be the only one on these boards to have used a reward system for more than a year with any results.  

When the T casually suggested it and said I should read Your defiant child my H and I were just saying , "You have to be out of your mind" I never read the book as it seemed to be more about ADHD or something more close to normal than my SS.

Rewards didn't work with potty training, or anything else. These kids just were not interested in rewards. My H and I were highly skeptical.

The only thing that saved us was a massive effort on my part and my H and getting a BT into the house who acted as an authority figure. She was in practice with the Neuropsych. We live in a large metro area and there is this great sort of one stop shop for pediatric therapy. My H also has good insurance. I read "parenting a child with intense emotions" "Family guide to BPD" and all I could find on Behavior Therapy to try to understand extinction bursts. I schooled my H in it and then we started.

We have become huge consumers of the mental health system. Now our insurance is not paying for the BT and it is getting old and the kids are getting older.

So, the systems most lasting benefits are some basic rules that must be followed. A TV chart to determine who controls the TV and gets to sit on the couch and hold the remote. My SS10 was predatory towards my SS8 and so we have rules that they can not sit on the couch together and also can not play alone in their room together esp with the door closed. We have a chore chart for all the kids but they all need a lot of reminding. It is there and helps.

The great thing about having a BT coming in was that they could actually see the kids in their environment and help them through some of the more physical real aspects of how they needed to behave.

Yes, like with your DD... .  saying no is a huge trigger. I try to point it out to SS10 as well as SS8.

I went back to re read "Parenting a child with intense emotions" last night and felt calmer. The reward system is about setting limits. With kids with BPD traits that is so hard without some other authority in place and even then ... .  


At any rate, the "it's just drama" comment is very invalidating to me and to my SS10. I wrote her back and said something like,

Gee I wish you were here to see it... .  It's just not normal. He doesn't even seem to remember some of his behaviors.

She wrote back something like, "well I guess at age 10 you expect to see him progressing socially and he does not seem to be"

She has been his T since age 4 and is protective of him I guess. SS10 feels safe with her. I could go on and on, but I just feel like you constantly have to be helping the Ts to see your child as you see them and not discount your kiddo because they can behave for an hour appointment.