I am on the Bridge and am letting go of the rope - God have mercy

[vivekananda]

ah qcr,

I am so sorry I have not been here - but I notice there have been other wonderful people instead 

I am so proud of you carefully stepping aside and letting the security person help you. You did good girl.

When your dd does stuff like that, she is using the skills that have worked in the past. She is doing what works for her... .  it is so good that your response did not get her what she expected. And then when your dh contacted you he was able to understand what had been happening and you weren't split like you have been before. That is so much the right thing to do.

I am thinking of you qcr,

viv     

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

Taking a walk around the county compound helped me do what I needed in control of myself. I told DD before I walked that she had to agree to stop bullying me and yelling or she had to get out of car. When the security officer said he could call the police over to help her get out of car, that is when she complied.

Dh did great -- he actually called me before he left work on his lunch to drive her, compelled by her tears and sad story of 'doing nothing to deserve this' --- ie. being abandoned. I am sure she believed this for herself. She can only change her path when we get out of the way.

All the encourgement I get from you all here - even if you only read - is giving me so much courage. Thanks.

qcr love

[vivekananda]

I am sure she believed this for herself.

of course she did. Her reality is not the same as ours.

Self compassion for yourself, ok? compassion for all others - when you are sufficiently soothed and grounded.

I love your lotus 

viv     

[griz]

qcr:  I am constantly amazed by your strength and all that you do.  I don't have much to add as I wish I had some magical words but I think of you often and want to say thank you for being such an inspiration.

Griz

[jellibeans]

qcr

you handled that well... .  it is hard to remain calm when they are in that mood and following and bullying... .  I am glad you had help near by. At the same time I am a bit scared for you. Her violence against you seems to be increasing... .  please be careful  

[qcarolr]

I am doing OK. Dh is struggling more than I am wanting to rescue DD in her distress. My faith is carrying me through this. I want to share the email I sent today to my friends in my women's bible study group. This explains so well how I am able to be strong in this right now.

Hi my friends,

Thank you so much for encouraging me through a difficult time this year. You are all awesome friends. Please pray for Jesus to find an opening into DD's heart as she is in so much distress. Her actions are so close to being out of control for whatever the reasons are.

Yesterday, after our group, I had to get security to make her leave my car when at a county building. I am thankful for the staff person in the parking lot that intervened when DD was attempting to stop me from this action. I drove away, did not answer her calls, helped DH to not leave work and rescue her after she called him in her distress. God is working in our lives here. I have to limit my contact even further with her, and I am feeling so much sorrow as her mom in this.

She is waiting for the summons to come for probation violation and anticipates some jail time when she goes to court. I know she is choosing this path, she has chosen to follow toxic friends examples that are leading her away from helpful opportunites and into jail. I am praying for God to carry my worries in this and remind me that he is the only one that can lead her, redeem her, have mercy on her soul.

This scripture speaks to me about keeping my integrity whole, and keeping the boundaries that are in place to protect my values.

1 Thessalonians (MSG), 5:16-22

Be cheerful no matter what, pray all the time; thank God no matter what happens. This is the way God wants you who belong to Christ Jesus to live.

Don't suppress the Spirit, and don't stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don't be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what's good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.

Thank you for your prayers for my family.

qcr  

[Reality]

qcaroir,

You are being respectful, honest, truthful and kind in holding to your essence and sense of life.

Reality

[qcarolr]

DD got summons for june 14th today. Biggest point made is her defiant attitude that she does not need any of the treatments order by the court at conviction last Oct. DD's belief she is innocent, has no drug or alcohol problems, or any need for mental health treatments has led her to jail. The PO recommended the full 365 sentence - she will not succeed at any attempts for further probation.

I will try to stay out of her way - not going to be in a car or any small space with her. I fear for my life. She wants money - I fear it is going for drugs, even if only pot. I can text her suggestions, her replies are requests for money for food and rent. I do not have this money.

How to get her family plan phone back - or report it stolen/lost if I do not get it back. Will cancel service and pay the penalty of $375. brand new smartphone - not a good decision on my part when her other one broke. Cancel the storage unit and donate stuff in there - mostly belongs to bfM. Told him to get it out my 5/31. We need the money for DD commissary at jail. Who to let know we will not pay for anything other than commissary - ie. alterntive sentences like house arrest or halfway house. She has medicaid. She will lose her food stamps and county stipend and can reapply when she gets out. Have to work with gd's T on contacts with her mom.

Dh says he just puts it all out of his mind. Why can't I do the same. He is tired of listening. Glad I have therapy tomorrow morning.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

qcr of course she is hitting out. She stuffed up big time and I expect she knows it too. She will want to be in denial, she will want to blame, she will want to hit out.

Your bible reference above (Thessalonians) makes it clear what is good for you to do. Do you have an emergency back up plan if it goes awry with your dd? You did well the other day with the security guard. Do you have other ideas for just in case? We have 4 weeks to get through. Is it safe at your workplace? Is gd safe?

We are with you, take care please,

sending you strength and love and my prayers,

Viv     

[mggt]

Dear qcr , I have been reading all your post I am so so sorry.  I wish I had some good advice but... .  I know what you mean about h my h does the same thing I wish I could shut off all of my feelings but I cant .  Be strong and stick with your boundaries you are doing amazing.  I will keep all of you in my prayers sending you love and support mggt  

[Thursday]

Hello q,

What an ordeal.

Right now, we are hitting the brick wall of SD's defiance and defensiveness and her certainty that she knows what is best. Yep, like a toddler knows what is best for herself... .  an all cookie and soda diet and well, if she gets sick we better take care of her too. This attitude includes pouting and tantrums when she doesn't get her way. Right now she is angry because, in living with her grandmother, now her Aunt is in her business, trying to protect the grandmother from SD's lies and manipulations. (I don't like the Aunt, mind you, she is a mean spirited person at best! so I do get   satisfaction that in her malingering SD is being confronted by the reports from the mean Aunty and SD's "slacker" lifestyle is being questioned and not by ME!

I am looking at the year your DD faces in jail as much needed healing and strengthening time for you. Maybe jail will make a difference in her attitude. Maybe. Meanwhile you can focus on your gd, get some rest and respite and rebuild what has been beaten down.

I think it takes a really long time for natural consequences to come into play and the same long time for our BPD loved ones to be able to feel these consequences in a manner that makes them want to change it up.

I overheard a phone conversation between SD and my husband yesterday. He and I talk about SET (support, empathy, truth) and he was practicing the principles, however, he was sugar coating the TRUTH part... .  minimizing the needed impact by adding modifiers at the end, modifiers such as sometimes, pretty much, might be, could be, maybe. He explains that he fears running her off, their contact is so minimal. Right now, he explains, to see her costs him $. When he asks her to come over or meet him, she complains she doesn't have enough gasoline. I cannot know if that is true or not. Her saying so doesn't mean it is true. It also doesn't mean she is lying. My suspicion is that she is lying. This is due to a past so fraught with lies to believe her now would be foolhardy.

My husband wishes to continue to have a relationship with her so that he can be a positive influence in her life- no matter what else she sees out there, he keeps the window open (if not the door) so that she can for sure, see what a good life looks like, what it looks like when people work hard and are productive and sober and loyal and truthful. I don't think he would continue with her were she to be openly hostile. I see there is a "set" point for him. There are natural boundaries with her Dad and my SD, through her awesome intuitive skills, KNOWS THIS.

When I read your story, I see that your DD works to find the tiniest fracture in the walls you have put into place for protection. She goes and goes like a human battering ram. Only outside intervention seems to influence her to make her stop. If she is incarcerated, you will have some time to get your strength back, to talk to your husband without her next crises, like a frying pan upside your head, making you see stars, confusing him and you, clouding things, putting you both into the FOG.

You will have time to show your gd how a home that is peaceful and composed feels, for a sustained period of time so that she can unlearn some of what she's been picking up on from your interactions with your DD and from her interactions with your DD. My hope is that your DD will get some benefit from programs in jail. My guess is that if she doesn't participate, when she gets out and goes back to same old same old, we will see a Q-family  that is healthier and with boundaries of the unbendy type.

When SD moved to the sober house, her first time out from under our roof, DH promised me she would not be moving back. I felt uneasy, unsure this could possibly be true, for over a year. To call this PTSD would be an overstatement, but truth is, hearing a text message coming into his phone makes my stomach do a flip and I go on full alert. Still. Of course, about half of the texts he gets from her are the beginning of some new issue du jour.

This isn't how it should be.

I think living with or caring about someone with BPD is a super-super-super stressful existance. That's why we need to practice self-care. The world at large isn't handing us any cookies... .  in fact as many here have witnessed, the world at large is sort of blaming the parents and the parents are just searching and searching and searching for something, anything that might help.

Last night DH and I discussed SD's immaturity. He believes she will grow up in ten years. Wow, that would be nice. I am, however, not planning for this to happen. I think it is more prudent to understand and place my boundaries and to get on with living, try to stay in a place of wisdom and compassion and find and appreciate joy wherever it resides. Think of the serenity prayer-

God, grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference

and how it starts with serenity, because with chaos making hurricanes out of our lives, how can we begin to have any wisdom concerning what is what. How do you know what you cannot change if you are in the midst of chaos.

Sometimes, when I respond to your posts I cut and paste what you have posted. I think you post to sort of solidify your resolve and make your resolutions. With that said,

I will try to stay out of her way - not going to be in a car or any small space with her. I fear for my life. She wants money - I fear it is going for drugs, even if only pot. I can text her suggestions, her replies are requests for money for food and rent. I do not have this money.

How to get her family plan phone back - or report it stolen/lost if I do not get it back. Will cancel service and pay the penalty of $375. brand new smartphone - not a good decision on my part when her other one broke. Cancel the storage unit and donate stuff in there - mostly belongs to bfM. Told him to get it out my 5/31. We need the money for DD commissary at jail. Who to let know we will not pay for anything other than commissary - ie. alterntive sentences like house arrest or halfway house. She has medicaid. She will lose her food stamps and county stipend and can reapply when she gets out. Have to work with gd's T on contacts with her mom

You have a plan! That is awesome. In it I hear your apprehensions and I just want to hug you bigtime.

And lastly, there is this,

Dh says he just puts it all out of his mind. Why can't I do the same. He is tired of listening. Glad I have therapy tomorrow morning.

Don't you feel like maybe you and your husband complement one another with your differences? If you both had the same response, nothing would get done, you would stay in upset land and he would stay in "it's out of my mind" mode.

If he is tired of listening you can come here, give him a little break. My husband constantly tells me he can't keep talking about SD when we are in a crisis. It's so hard to just shut up! no way to do a woman's vent! and so I tend to overshare on here even when I am just complaining and whining.

I guessing that your husband appreciates all of the energy you expend towards your DD because otherwise he would have to expend even more of this energy he guards against depleting. And I know, from your posts, that when the going gets tough, he is THERE, Johnny on the spot, for you.

So, today I am dreaming of serenity for you and yours. I already see so much courage and wisdom.

Thursday

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

Thanks everyone for your love and encouragment. Don't know what I would do without you all here.   

And yes Thursday, I think you post to sort of solidify your resolve and make your resolutions is a good description of a primary use of my threads for myself. Kind of like being my own cheerleader. It is nice to know that others care enough to read and some to reply. I also hope that something of what I share can give something good or helpful to someone else. There is no way to be here as a parent, and survive this all alone. I am so sad with you that our SD is struggling and our dh is trying so hard to hold onto something that may become a mist or fog. It is so very very hard when our BPDkids resist taking responsibilty for themselves. And fail to get that they create the consequences that are pounding them on the head.

I am putting DD last tonight.

I might ramble a bit - gd was up with the birds at 4:30am running through the house with the two doggies (big 60 pounders). I forgot to close her window - there are lots of birds. And howling coyotes - the pups are out of the den a mile away across the open s-space. And getting very close to our house - gd was howling back at them just across the field tonight when dh went out to bring her in for being so loud. She thinks she is being brave - she is scaring me. These are wild animals. Need to get some mace that shoots out 30 feet. I hope thay cannot jump our 6 foot chain link fence.

Gave her Intuniv early at 6 am, and she settled down before bus time and seems to have had a good day. (med for ADHD and anxiety - really helps with the "H" part for her, not so much on the "A" part). She said it was from the excitement of getting to ride a horse today. She is in equine therapy and this is the 3rd session. The first there was snow, the second there was rain and no volunteer horse handler, so today was sunny and hot. She was so quiet, and rode a really big horse. She loved it. We are working out a way to pay for every other week plus maybe some 1/2 day horse camps this summer so I can work at the office. I believe she has a hundred horse figurines from one inch to the big Breyer models. Some from her mom's collection and many from her gathering. Gd is a collector of everything. We are working on the stashes of trash, some with stickiness attached. She hides it now because she knows I will throw it away if it escapes the little boxes and bags that she is allowed (though none of the sticky kind gets to stay if I find it). One of her therapy goals is to learn to let go of stuff. It will be a long slow process I think.

Gd is the joy of my life. She gives me so much love back. She holds my hand now as we walk back towards home from the horse farm behind our house. They so love the dandelions and long lush grasses just our of the reach over the fence. Gd can spend hours there watching them and feeding them these natural treats. I think they are getting to know her smell - they come over for a pet and a treat. I used to sing a little song with her name as I rocked her in the evenings as a baby. I have taken to singing to her again at random times when we are alone together - first name, middle name then JOY. So very thankful we have legal custody so we can protect her from her mom right now. DD would be in the 'take her away and never see her again' mode - that is my intuition.

Dh had a couple days off and now is working the whole weekend. I will miss him tomorrow. He usually has Fri and Sat off, but his new boss has asked for one weekend a month with his family. It works out OK - we get a little extra couple time. He is enjoying my weekly time out with my women friends (for book or bible study or simple social gathering) - Gd is going to bed for him and is asleep when I get home. I realize how lucky I am to have this calm, self-controlled, loving man in my life. And he is so commited to me, protective of me with DD right now. He has stepped up to respond to her - and tonight got the full impact of her current craziness. And he is sticking to our plan - our boundaries. No money. If she needs something, we can buy it for her. NO MONEY. And she pulls out the stops in her anger and vengefulness. And she is working so hard to split us - calling me and screaming that Dh won't give her $20 and saying he told her to ask me and I just told her "you are with him - you has to work it out with him". And guess what - NO MONEY.

She came to the house today and packed up a lot of clothing and other stuff. Dh loaded in his truck to drop her at the apartment she is staying at. She says she needs the money for food and rent. I say they have to wait for her to get her benefits on the 2nd. And her story about what she is doing with the money changes mid-sentence. Sounds like she is needing to repay debts for drugs to me. Feels like meth to me -- the raging. Seems more than just stress or terror of jail, but that could also be it. And our pulling away from her - she probably does feel abandoned. We have to stay safe.

I think she is planning to leave the state to avoid jail. No idea of the how or when. She asked me today if I had heard from "A", gd's daddy. He is in CA. seems to finally have timed out on his parole for violent assualt about 5 years ago - he never did the parole, just waited for the warrant to catch up with him, back to prison for 3-4 months, released to half-way house or relative, never checked in with PO, wait for warrant... .    DD said he has been calling her. I know they have fb contact as DD has mentioned this over the past few months. He last called to talk to gd about 8 months ago just before his last jail time. Gd does not even ask about him any more - he left when she was 18 months old and had been in/out of the home since she was 6 weeks. So I am guessing that DD is planning to go to him in CA. I hope she is OK there, and I hope she goes soon.

I am doing the best I can to let her go. To include her in the worries I am giving to God every day, all day. And there is some peace that settles on me for a bit each day.

Then today she mentions that she wants gd to meet the people she is staying with - she has introduced me to the lady of the house "K" when I dropped some stuff off last week. I talked with gd's T about how to talk with DD about this and that we are not going to let this happen. Not a good thing for gd. T said, it does not matter how you say this to her, she will be angry. Just stick to saying "NO". And she suggests we further limit DD being at our house to zero. Get her stuff out of the house. Yet we closed the storage unit today. It was too small for all DD's stuff anyway. We need that money for other things. I just cannot set it on the curb yet for the donation truck either. Have put the mountains of clothes in big plastic tubs though. Working in that direction. After she is gone - either out of state or in jail - I will tackle her room. We are going to "repurpose" it - this is what dh told DD, but I don't think she took this in. Dh does not want me to communicate these plans to her while she can come to the house - he is wise about this. It is hard for me to feel secretive about this plan. We have to stay safe.

After tonight, dh does not want to be in a vehicle with DD either. If she skips out on jail, we will most likely continue to pay for her cell phone. Will stop paying her court cost installments. Will not have other small costs either. So will have more money to do activities with gd this summer, and maybe do some special stuff when we get vacation in August.

So my verses from Thesselonians 5, I am thinking of the last verse tonight as I am at peace with DD being gone from our lives in many ways, and having the time to figure out how to be strong and not let her move back home again.

On the other hand, don't be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what's good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.

We are ready to throw out the toxic people in our lives - DD and all her homeless friends. They are toxic for her. She looks so happy, laughing and smiling with them. Good for her to keep moving around - so they do not become the black target for her anger. It will move on from us at some point. At least this is where I am tonight.

Oh, there are positive ripples in the neighborhood with DD and friends gone. Gd is being invited to play again with her friends. I know the parents still gossip about us, but at least they are letting their kids play with gd again. None of them really understood the ban on gd over the past year.

qcr   

[Thursday]

Qcarolr-

I woke up too early this morning... .  I am typically compelled to get out of bed because I so love the quiet hours before the world wakes up. Just me and the birds... .  and I feel a kinship with your grand daughter. If we had coyotes here I would be howling with them too. (and I understand your fear too!)

Q- I am worried by this- it is instinct, a hunch but I got the hair raising on the back of my neck which I try never to ignore and I don't know you or your DD BUT,

she mentions that she wants gd to meet the people she is staying with

You mention that you think your DD is planning to avoid her jail time by leaving the state.

Your quote from Thesselonions encourages you to not be gullible. Could your DD be thinking of getting your GD away from you so that she can take her away? Please be careful.

Please be careful.

thursday

[qcarolr]

Thursday

My intuition gives me the same punch in the gut. Knowing I need back-up to be strong in saying NO to DD about this, I called and talked with gd's T. She reinforced for me that dh and I are gd's parents, not DD. And we get to make the decisions for what we deem to be the best for gd.

Today DD called wanting me to take her to check her phone - it will not turn on. So I told her to get the bus over to the Verizon store - she goes past there every day moving from where she is staying to the city parks where they all hang out during the day. Started with the excuse that dh was at work and gd was home with me. So she wanted me to bring gd and to leave her with DD for some kids birthday party! So a deep breath, and then I was very direct with her:

I will not be in a car with you after 3 weeks of bullying EVERY time I have given you a ride. And dh is in same place after driving you yesterday. --- lots of denails by DD.

Gd is not coming to visit DD in town anywhere. She would not feel safe there, she is very cautious with people she does not know. DD started down the path of "she is my kid, not yours". I said, No - dh and I are her parents day to day... .    She was threatening me

saying she would come to the house and 'take care of me' or something like that.

She hung up on me. I was ready to hang up on her.

I went to a womens spring gathering at my church today. Was asked to share what the group - community - had given me this past year. It was hard to talk with tears and my hands were shaking so much. I got through it all. The most important part is the acceptance and growing friendships I have found. There is so much support here for me. This gave me the courage I needed to be direct with DD on the way home from this gathering.

When pulling into the driveway after picking gd up from my SIL, the neighbor called across the street for gd to come over and run play in the sprinklers with her kids. Amazing - gd so happy. This neighbor was the harshest in her judgements about having DD and her friends in our home. I have come to understand this was about the safety of the neighborhood, the safety of her kids. This reinforces the hard choices and boundaries dh and I are maintaining.

GD home -- gotta go. Thanks for listening.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

I am so relieved qcr, so relieved. Thursday I am glad you vocalised my fears... .  

qcr it's good to know you have your church group and now the neighbours opening up. Your dd will shortly feel the consequences for her actions and I hope she can learn from that. In the meantime, this is indeed your chance to have some peace and strengthen your grounding.

love to you,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

qcr,

good to hear about all the progress you are making regarding your boundaries and the FOG clearing when your dd is not around.

Something caught my eye in your posts. You may be aware of it, just wanted to mention it for good measure, hope you don't mind:

Gd is a collector of everything. We are working on the stashes of trash, some with stickiness attached. She hides it now because she knows I will throw it away if it escapes the little boxes and bags that she is allowed (though none of the sticky kind gets to stay if I find it). One of her therapy goals is to learn to let go of stuff. It will be a long slow process I think.

This reminded me of the reality show episodes of "hoarders - buried alive". Have you seen that show? It is about people (adults) who collect everything to the point that it becomes unsafe to live in their own homes. These people usually have a psychological problem, most often some traumatic loss in their past (bad divorce, death of spouse, too many moves and loss of friends/possessions as children, etc.). And the therapeutic process for them focuses on processing that trauma in a more healthy way. Only then they can move on and let go of things. Otherwise, they repeat the cycle, or get very anxious and angry when other people limit their 'collections'... .  

Your dear little gd has been through a lot, so it is no wonder she 'collects'. It makes her feel safer, comforted and more in control, I think. Hope the T can help her deal with the root of the problem; then the symptom will be easy to deal with... .  

[qcarolr]

AM I GRASPING FOR THE ROPE -- IT IS GONE. THIS IS CRAZY MAKING.

DD made a comment today in our phone conversation. As it keeps popping up, and makes some sense to me, I need to write out for clarity. I feel the need to explain or apologize and cannot come to terms with whether this would help or hurt DD right now.

She stated "How can you offer me an apartment, then take that hope away, and then kick me out of the house the next week"

I have written about this impulsive plan in other posts. We were going to have to invest proceeds from selling our travel trailer - our escape for an affordable vacation -- undertake the liability knowing there was a big chance of the apt. being trashed -- etc.

I wrote out what we expected from DD for the six months we planned to pay the rent. I sat down with her an went over them. She agreed that she would do all these things (follow lease rules, work with community vocaitonal program to get a job, do all of her probation requirements). Then I told her that if she could not pay the rent at the end of 5 months we had to give 30 days notice to leave apt. and she would have to find somewhere else to live. She assumed she would move back home -- I said no. The purpose of the apt. was to give her a start to live on her own. She would not be moving back home.

This was the beginning of her continous anger and agression against me, and now against dh as well since we are not allowing her to split us. Gd is being injured by the fall-out.

Her comment today really made it clear to me that I did set her up with the expectations for how life would be doing this apartment. She has never been able to stick to anything for more than 2 months - why did I expect this to be any different. She was just going through the minimum motions for all the things listed. And now she has given up on it all.

Yet, I want to tell her I understand how painful this is for her, how betraying it must feel to get her hopes up and then feel like her whole life is taken away. Her home, daughter, money, food, etc. that we were providing for her. And I don't feel that badly about these losses to her with the violence of her response to losing this apartment opportunity.

I tried to tell her on the phone today that this was an impulsive decision, and when we got down to doing it - I had this talk with her 10 minutes before we were to look at the apartment - I decided it would just not work. The costs to the family were too high.

So many losses for DD. Yet, she is just too violent with us to have in our home.

Need to just stop the thinking and let it rest tonight. Sharing this is not helping tonight, just spinning it faster. Any ideas?

qcr  

[vivekananda]

oh I'm so sorry. You tried and it didn't work, wasn't going to be able to work.

My ideas are do not justify yourself. I am thinking as I write and will try to make sense... .  

She is thinking with her emotions, she is hurt. She is hurt because she has stuffed up again. She is projecting onto you all of that. She is avoiding responsibility for what her choices were. She knows when she is working with her thinking mind, that there is more to renting an apartment than she 'dreams'. She is like a child dreaming of a life that is like in the movies, one where she doesn't have to do anything, where everything is done for her. That is not life. And you are not responsible for those dreams. You offered her a chance and she blew it. There is no need for you to feel guilty. You were not setting her up to fail. You were giving her something to aim for. If she had avoided the drugs and the 'friends' who bring her down, if she accepted the terms she had been given, she would be on the path to recovery. She chose not to and she is facing those consequences.

Remember the FOG. Remember the skills she has learnt in using FOG to get what she wants, to split, to project, to avoid her responsibility. She is just applying those time tested skills that have got her what she has wanted in the past. Don't let her succeed again. This is a lesson she needs to learn, don't let her get to you, it is not good for her.

If you justify, if you explain... .  you are allowing her to twist the logic so it makes sense to her that you have been cruel again. All you should be doing is applying your boundaries and validating. Just validate when she speaks to you. You need to be able to hear her. You could try to ask her a question perhaps to ask her what she would have done if she were you... .  that sort of thing. But don't get sucked into that vortex of justification and defensiveness. Stay out of the fog.

You are responding with your emotions. You are feeling guilty. Identify in yourself what your emotional need is, why do you feel this way. Then when you identify it, come up with the words to soothe yourself and do the things you need to do to meet that need. Go to your dh and lean on each other and hold each other upright in this. Remember your mantras, stay on track,

love you carol,

Vivek        

[Thursday]

q-

It must have felt so bad to hear your daughter's words and to see how your previous attempt to figure something out for her went so poorly. I am of the kicking myself around the block type, hate it when I make mistakes.

Mistakes, however, are how we learn.

Would your daughter gain any benefit from hearing you say,

"I made a mistake and caught myself before it went any further."

I'm  not sure that there would be a benefit. I would guard against your DD gaining some sort of feeling of superiority over you because you have admitted a shortcoming. If she is anything like my SD she will take it and run. SD is very judgemental.

I like Vivek 's advice. Try to use SET if you chose to address this issue with her,

I can understand how upsetting it was to you to hear that your Dad and I were planning to get you an apartment. I would hurt too if someone offered me something like that and then changed their mind. Your Dad and I had a chance to think about it after we offered this to you and decided... .  and we just don't feel like it is in anyone's best interest.

Give it three days sweetie... .  won't hurt so bad by then is my guess. Won't hurt so bad for either of you.

thursday

[Thursday]

Q-

I just had another thought=

As time goes on with my SD it is important to let go of expectations. For example, if we give her money she will not do with it what we expect. Sometimes she will lie to get the money but if we expect that what she says is true it is likely we will be disappointed. Since it's hard to give hard earned $ to someone so irresponsible that they might use the money unwisely, now, when she asks, we say NO. We do still allow her to work for some $ when she claims desparation but have no expectations that she will do anything smart with what she earns.

We still give her the message of what we would like her to do. Hopes and dreams stuff... .  

If you had gotten the apartment for your daughter and she had done nothing of what you asked, where would you be then? And now that she is likely going to jail for stuff she was doing or not doing at the same time you were discussing the apartment... .  so glad you and your husband got out of that horrible foggy place and looked down the road a bit.

My SD does not live with us, she doesn't have her own place, she couch surfs and has open invitation to sleep at her GMs house when she doesn't have anyplace else. She is unemployed.

In the last week SD has:

been to a first run movie,

watched a pay per view of another movie with a friend,

gone fishing,

eaten out at least ten times,

gotten a large Yobe Smoothie,

gone to a birthday party wearing a new dress and shoes

and gotten a pedicure.

This is just what I know about from facebook. She gets on facebook from her smart phone, the one for which her Dad pays the monthly bill. She daily drives the car he paid for and for which he pays insurance.

She claims that all of these activities are free, paid for by someone else. All of the people who give her money for gas should be gratifed to know that the only thing she spent the money on was gasoline. (?)

I don't know why so many people are funding her lifestyle. She occasionally follows a lead on a job that is given to her by someone she knows, usually someone who is concerned by seeing her constantly on the dole and someone, like me, a little bit bitter that she is having so much fun! and not working to pay for it herself. When she follows a lead she shows up a day late or dressed inappropriately. Or, the minute she gets to the "in person" phase she drops the "addict bomb" where she tells them she used to use drugs and alcohol but she is in AA now.

Love AA- don't really need to tell everyone who will listen that you are daily involved in several meetings. No need to tell a prospective boss about your bottom... .  

I've asked her to think how, if she were someone hiring, she would feel about hiring an addict in recovery... .  do addicts relapse? Do lots of addicts going to AA relapse? How do I run my business? Do I do what I can to protect it? She can surmise the correct answers but cannot relate this to herself.

This is pretty much same situation you have going on. Your DD knows herself enough to get it that at the end of the six months she will get kicked out And she wants it how she wants it, no matter if she could clearly see that if you are trying to protect the sanctity and peace in your home that you would be risking it all to allow her to fail with a paid for apartment and then just move back on home.

Be glad you didn't go there.

I TOTALLY give you a ":)odged a Bullet" pass on guilty feelings

but I sure do understand them.

Thursday

[qcarolr]

Vivek  - so grateful for dh. he is so steady. and he gets the level of violent rage DD is projecting on me. Yes, we have to lean on each other, and it is working like a ray of sunshine in the FOG. Today things are more clear. We are on the right path.

Be glad you didn't go there.

I TOTALLY give you a ":)odged a Bullet" pass on guilty feelings

but I sure do understand them.

And the bullet was coming from my own weapon! Now that is tricky.  Reading the summons from the PO to the judge for the revokation hearing was eye-opening for me. They knew from the start that DD was not interested in doing the probation. Maybe DD was in her dreamland of no consequences. He is recommending to judge the full 365 days in jail. DD had her 6 month allowed to show her intentions with probation. Her claims of not being able to follow a schedule, plan ahead, etc. makes to difference.

I can hope the jail experience pushes her to some desire to change her path - I am not expecting this to happen. Expect an increase in her sense of how unfair life is and how trapped she is as its victim.

So I will keep praying for mercy and planning how to respond in a validating way to the feelings she expresses to me. I will choose to avoid initiating contact with her and focus on making it through the summer jumble with my ELJ (gd EL) as an expression of my Joy).

Side note: forgot gd's Intuniv yesterday. At 36 hours she became totally defiant - would not stay with us walking the dogs. The coyotes are teaching to pups to hunt and they are starting to do pounce and run on children. Two in the news last night. On a playground standing next to mom. So we need to stay in wide open areas with long view, and I need to get some mace.

No walks for gd for a week as consequence for not listening yesterday. Will padlock the gates and lock front storm door if needed. Just as when she was 5. This also shows me some regression in her coping skills. So glad DD is out of our home, no longer undercutting our authority with gd daily.

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

I agree with Vivek  on the FOG and not getting into justifying your actions.

On the other hand, I think that validating her feelings would be appropriate. When you look at it from her staNPDoint (and you already did) - you see how she was hopeful to be in an apartment you would be paying for, and then, she's suddenly on the street. She does not think about the fact that maybe it was too much for you to afford and that it was unrealistic in the long run anyway. She only thinks about the fact that you offered something and then took it away.

I believe it is appropriate for us to be genuine and acknowledge that when we change our mind, that it hurts the pwBPD.

One caviat - I think it is dangerous to do that, if we do not feel confident we can handle that situation with our skills and where we are emotionally at the time. In that case, I'd just leave it alone, but know that what they are feeling is not altogether irrational.

Ideally, we would know what's best, decide what we will do and THEN tell our pwBPD, and follow through on it. But we also are human, and do not foresee everything, and that makes it harder on our pwBPD. However, that's part of life, and it's ok.

The SET idea seems good to me. I would validate her feeling of disappointment, anger and fear. The Truth part is, that though you would like to help her and have her at your home, it became too violent and unsafe, and therefore no longer an option.

The good news in all this is: you did not waste your precious resources on postponing the inevitable. Your dd is now on the streets, when the weather is much better than it would be in six months. When she goes to jail (hopefully for a year), she will again be out while the weather is still good.

One little thing at the end - do you think you could pack some of her clothes and things and stuff them into a garage or somewhere? I think for her to find out  (now or in a year) that you got rid of her stuff might trigger a lot of new hurt (not saying you should keep it all, but maybe enough of the good stuff, so that she does not feel "disposed of"... .  ?) I know your space and resources are limited, so just giving my two cents. Not sure what's realistic... .  

Hang in there, qcr      

[qcarolr]

pessio - lots of good stuff here

author=pessim-optimist link=topic=200889.msg12256850#msg12256850 date=1368983594]I agree with Vivek  on the FOG and not getting into justifying your actions.

This is hard - part of my integrity value is to be as transparent in my life as possible. Deaing with BPD makes this a time bomb, esp. right now. Have to balance that with safety needs.

On the other hand, I think that validating her feelings would be appropriate. When you look at it from her staNPDoint (and you already did) - you see how she was hopeful to be in an apartment you would be paying for, and then, she's suddenly on the street. She does not think about the fact that maybe it was too much for you to afford and that it was unrealistic in the long run anyway. She only thinks about the fact that you offered something and then took it away.

I believe it is appropriate for us to be genuine and acknowledge that when we change our mind, that it hurts the pwBPD.

One caviat - I think it is dangerous to do that, if we do not feel confident we can handle that situation with our skills and where we are emotionally at the time. In that case, I'd just leave it alone, but know that what they are feeling is not altogether irrational.

Ideally, we would know what's best, decide what we will do and THEN tell our pwBPD, and follow through on it. But we also are human, and do not foresee everything, and that makes it harder on our pwBPD. However, that's part of life, and it's ok.

My own tendencies to be impulsive really get me in trouble with being a consistent influnece in my family. It has the greatest impact on my r/s with DD. What a turbulent bunch of females dh lives with - all three of us are impulsive. Gd and I are conscientously working on our self-control. DD seems to think she has an immunity pass on self-control - ie. does not apply. Reminded of gd's comment in therapy after one of DD's episodes. "My mom doesn't think there are any rules" which started a conversation about "we know there are rules, right?"

The SET idea seems good to me. I would validate her feeling of disappointment, anger and fear. The Truth part is, that though you would like to help her and have her at your home, it became too violent and unsafe, and therefore no longer an option.

Well, for now the safety plan puts lots of delay on my initiating any validating conversation. I am trying to be grounded so can put these skills to work when she contacts me. If I am getting too close to any truth, she hangs up on me with a veiled threat to my life or our house.

The good news in all this is: you did not waste your precious resources on postponing the inevitable. Your dd is now on the streets, when the weather is much better than it would be in six months. When she goes to jail (hopefully for a year), she will again be out while the weather is still good.

This is exactly what DD said when I told her at the end of 6 months she would be on her own. "mom, I would be evicted, all my stuff would be in the dumpster, and I would be homeless at the beginning of the winter. HOW CAN YOU DO THIS TO ME"  That is what really stopped me from going to look at this apartment. She was so right about this -- I had been in denial that it would come to this. In my thinking errors I imagined that DD would participate fully in the opportunites there for her to have a job within 6 months, have her SSI approved, and be successfully engaged in her probation. Super, gigantic thinking errors.

One little thing at the end - do you think you could pack some of her clothes and things and stuff them into a garage or somewhere? I think for her to find out  (now or in a year) that you got rid of her stuff might trigger a lot of new hurt (not saying you should keep it all, but maybe enough of the good stuff, so that she does not feel "disposed of"... .  ?) I know your space and resources are limited, so just giving my two cents. Not sure what's realistic... .  

I really want to rent a 5x7 storage unit for her and put her stuff in there -- not throw out anything. I have wanted to go through all the thrift store clothes she has hoarded, but there was never a safe chance to do this while she was here. It costs about $100/month and we really need that money. Espcially as gd needs to get involved in more activities that get more costly as she gets bigger. Her love is horses - probably not much more costly than some of the sports leagues in our area. I really want to do this for her in a small group environment. That is a major goal in her IEP, to work within groups and relating to others better.

I already have 5 plastic containers (121 gal.) of clothing and that was just what was piled in the laundry room. I haven't even taken inventory of her room yet. For now, we are going to store her stuff at our house. Maybe motivate us to clean out our garage and shed  Several people in our life have said - "Give her 2 days to get her stuff and then donate it".  Gd's T was one. I told her this was against my values since she had no way to get the stuff and nowhere to put it. So dh and I are going to wait to make any decisions until after the court hearing June 14th. If she is going to jail for a year, we can write her with what we want to do. She can call us - we will offer 2 calls per week, 15 min each. They are costly under the inmate prepaid calling account.

Dh asks me to stop thinking about all the details until we know what is happening. God tells me this too - leave the future for the future, the past is done and cannot be changed. Live in today and you will have the skills you need when it is time. He tells me this over and over and over in many different ways. Whew -- takes mega loads of radical acceptance on a daily basis to do it though.

High point of my day -- gd went to church with me today. She brought it up last night in kind of a reverse postive way (I know you want me to go the church tomorrow, right? Well maybe I will go and maybe I won't) I went to Sunday school with her at a new time. We have now explored all the classes and this is the smallest and quietest. She was laughing and playing at the end. She needs so much reassurance that she is not invisible, that the other kids 'know I am playing without my having to speak'. Her words today on the playground at the end playing tag. The middle-aged man leading the class was great with her - including her without any pressure, allowing her to take time-out (with hand signal of T) next to me until she was ready to engage again. I am hopeful I will be singing in the auditorium again soon while she is safe and happy with the other kids. (Gd 'forbids' me to sing durng services, or cry, or laugh, or express any emotion or sound. She is the same way at the bus stop in the morning, riding in the car, ... .  Is this some kind of sensory-integration thing? Where would I get this checked out? Her hearing is normal - had it checked.)

Love you all so much.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

(Gd 'forbids' me to sing durng services, or cry, or laugh, or express any emotion or sound. She is the same way at the bus stop in the morning, riding in the car, ... .  Is this some kind of sensory-integration thing? Where would I get this checked out? Her hearing is normal - had it checked.)

My hearing is normal too when tested, but it can be super sharp and sensitive at times (most times). gdJ probably the same, plus a bit of embarrassment and seeing grannie actively involved... .  

My dd forbade me to sing at home... .  gee it was the only thing giving me joy at the time... .  she was about 16 then... .  ugly anger.

cheers,

Vivek    

[mamachelle]

oh my qcr... .     for you. I've been reading today and getting caught up... .  

(Gd 'forbids' me to sing durng services, or cry, or laugh, or express any emotion or sound. She is the same way at the bus stop in the morning, riding in the car, ... .  Is this some kind of sensory-integration thing? Where would I get this checked out? Her hearing is normal - had it checked.)

My hearing is normal too when tested, but it can be super sharp and sensitive at times (most times). gdJ probably the same, plus a bit of embarrassment and seeing grannie actively involved... .  

My dd forbade me to sing at home... .  gee it was the only thing giving me joy at the time... .  she was about 16 then... .  ugly anger.

cheers,

Vivek    

Could be auditory processing disorder issues. Different than hearing. I think the school speech therapist can test for it or a speech pathologist... .  

  mamachelle

[qcarolr]

mamachelle - I have thought of the auditory processing. DD has trouble with this, though she refused any kind of therapy even as a young child. A call to gd's primary care doc for a referral may be my next step.

I read a excerpt from a new book coming out in one of the women's magazines, maybe Good Housekeeping. By Jeannette Walls. I downloaded her other books - I enjoyed her writing. The first is called "The Glass Castle, A Memior". Such a neglected life of poverty they had. Her parents did not get it that their life was not normal or OK. The kids got out of this loop and the parents ended up living homeless - that is where the story starts when Jeannette is a successful adult and her parents refuse her offers of help. They are OK with their life.

Somehow reading this book the past couple days has given me some acceptance about DD's life. When I see her with her friends, all of them struggling with issues and often homeless or in conditions I could not tolerate, she is laughing and smiling. If things go bad with one part of her 'clan' (her label) then she attaches to others. And within a relatively short time (days to weeks) she is back with everyone. It is a tight group with their own set of values - their own view of reality. It is just so foreign to me. I can see that it works for her. This perception has often been there after a good visit with DD while she has been homeless. [note: when things are in transistion and feel so bad to her - then I am to blame for it all of course.]

DD wants to have gd with her in this life - which will not happen. There are other kids in the house where she is living - she doesn't seem to get the terror this would cause gd to be pulled into this unkown place even for a visit. DD has never been able to see any of gd's needs. In fact gets angry that gd needs anything and that I treat her as a young child and not a little adult. I see that I am stepping out of the conflict of emotions that have torn me apart, being pulled between my two girls. I have yet again just now let go of DD's rope again - the one in my mind.

At our house she feels trapped and gets sad, lonely, depressed. Like she doesn't really belong here. And this leads to the anger. I still have to protect myself and gd. I need to protect the life that fits me - I cannot give it all away. I have to stop fantasizing that somehow DD will change to become who I want her to be. She is who she is.

I downloaded these books looking for a break from the intensity of searching for answers in her label of mental illness and her NLD. This book has led me toward letting go of the labels and my goals for her accepting treatment and 'getting her life together'. Maybe she is who she is, and she can find some level of contentment with herself once in a while. Maybe we offered her this opportunity over the past couple of years while she was back in our home. The DWAI conviction and the pressures to do treatment that she is unable to accept is a big part of pushing her to where she is now. I am very sad that jail or running away seem to be the options open to her.

I will pray for her safety, and mercy (which means the opposite of judgement) wherever she ends up. Dh and I will figure out what we can safely and financially do to support her however she chooses to spend her days. One day at a time.

qcr  

[Thursday]

I've read The Glass Castle too. The parents in this memoir really believed their own hype, was my take on it. They dragged innocent children through the mire of their own inability to live with structure and created a chaos that their children had to struggle to overcome.

q- you are so loving and forgiving and judgement seems not to be a part of your personal paradigm.

In the book, the strength of their own intelligence and resolve is how the three older children cope and escape. The youngest child is ruined by the experience.

In addition to being loving and forgiving and without judgement I see someone smart too... .  smart enough to know that your gd would be traumatized if she were to be pulled out of your secure home and into your DD's world of chaos.

There is a reason for your having custody of your gd.

Sometimes judgement is fair.

Thursday

[qcarolr]

Thursday,

The end of the book, when it is discovered by Jeanette that her mom has had inherited property worth humdreds of thousands of dollars her whole life is the most important statement of the mental health issues of her mom in the whole book. That this mom allowed her family to suffer severely due to her skewed beliefs in "keeping the property in the family forever". And yet, Jeanette still loved and accepted her mom - there was a moment of judgement followed by mercy.

The 3 older kids got lots of loving attention while they were young, even in their poverty. The youngest was neglected from birth -- no opportunity to develop the perseverece for survival. Just my thinking based on what I have learned about attachment and child development.

With DD, I am coming to accept that she truly makes the choics to be homeless now. When we first evicted her back in  2009, yes - this was "our fault". We were the parent birds pushing the baby out to see if she could fly. Taking a big risk for our own survival. And guess what - she did survive. She knows she can survive - she is resourceful and streeet wise. In our last phone call, when she made her standard statement; "This is all your fault. How can you do this to me?", my reply was different than in the past. I said something like; "I don't have that much power. We each make our own choices. You are making your own choices."  She had not comeback on this, and shifted to a new topic.

All things come together for good. As humans we are often blind to this. It gives me peace in the midst of chaos.

qcr  

[qcarolr]

Quick note from work today: another toxic person is moving out of my life. The wife of my boss who has been pushing to be the one in authority for 18 months since she sold her business. IMHO, she has PD of some kind. I hope my comments the past 2 weeks of distress at work were supportive for them to find their way through this. Morale is better overall in shop today. 

qcr  

[ihavehope]

Hello,

I have read your post from the beginning. I'm new to this site and I must say THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! My d24 also takes everything out on me. She was just diagnosed a few weeks ago. I have been living just like you for the past 6 years. My d24 is still living at home and I take care of my gd4. Since this is all new to me still just getting my feet wet. Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your posts. I had no idea!