Article my wife sent me this morning Part 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336008.0

 He has said " you don't talk to me anymore" "you don't show interest in me" but things go more smoothly in the family when I keep a distance.  

So...this is the similarity and what I'm trying to figure out.

Have you ever engaged in this conversation.  

"Oh my...how would you like me to show interest?" or "OK...let's talk"

It just seems weird to me that "they" would express they want something, get exactly that something...and be unhappy about it..or have that something make it worse.

FF

[formflier]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336008.0

 He has said " you don't talk to me anymore" "you don't show interest in me" but things go more smoothly in the family when I keep a distance.  

So...this is the similarity and what I'm trying to figure out.

Have you ever engaged in this conversation.  

"Oh my...how would you like me to show interest?" or "OK...let's talk"

It just seems weird to me that "they" would express they want something, get exactly that something...and be unhappy about it..or have that something make it worse.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it is part of the push pull dynamics. I can't guess what someone is thinking, but wanting something and then getting it aren't the same thing.

I think they project their bad feelings about themselves on to the people closest to them, so the closer we get to them, the less they feel positively about us?

I also think it's about boundaries. Boundaries can be too loose or too strong. I think if someone has poor boundaries they may have a mix of both. Maybe that's part of the pushback.

[I Am Redeemed]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that emotional and spiritual intimacy both bring up possible differences. I feel this, you feel that. This Scripture speaks xyz to me, this Scripture speaks ABC to you. Differences can be perceived as rejection, which is the antithesis to closeness.

[Notwendy]

That's an interesting idea. Same with an emotionally intimate conversation. When I express my own feelings, it isn't received well sometimes. No two people are going to feel exactly the same about scripture, religion ,or many other things while they may be compatible generally.

When I have expressed a disagreement or dislike of something my H does like, he sometimes acts as if I personally rejected him.

[formflier]

And then there is the further weirdness of getting beyond "feelings" with scripture.

My wife and I both say we believe in "plain reading". 

Yes..many things are open to interpretation.  A plain reading of do unto others does not lead one to believe the world should only be nice to them...and they get to do whatever they want, and be free of having what they do to the world..come back to them.

It just doesn't say that.

FF

[empath]

It just seems weird to me that "they" would express they want something, get exactly that something...and be unhappy about it..or have that something make it worse

Sometimes, that happens when the problem is that "they" are feeling bad and think that it is because of some external thing.

I've also had weird conversations that my h thought were arguments because I had a different point of view that wasn't necessarily in opposition to his view.

There are many people in churches who "say" they believe something and act as if they believe something quite different. True beliefs are shown through actions.

[babyducks]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336008.0


It just seems weird to me that "they" would express they want something, get exactly that something...and be unhappy about it..or have that something make it worse.

Not being a member of your faith tradition, I have no frame of reference for much of this discussion.

Having said that, I will say that looking beyond, around, behind the religion, theology, spirituality there might be a familiar personality disorder characteristic.

Margalis Fjelstad spends a lot of time talking in her book about people who have factures in their personality, not having a strong sense of self, not having a unique individual definition, not having a self concept.

She uses the phrase in her book "people with PD's need to merge into an amoeba like oneness with the people around them and by merge, you must become them to help shore up, strengthen their fragile personality."   (paraphrase) 

as I have read many of these threads, the thought occurs that FFw is displaying that.    with a fragile sense of self,  and a moving sense of identity, she is utilizing religion to cement her individuality.   anyone not literally on the same page as her threatens her very existence.

having little or fragile sense of self is a hard concept to grasp.   a very thorny psychological point.     seems very much in play here.   she has to be inside a very narrow religious construct or the shame over runs her.    her self concept is being held together by this religious construct.    differences can not be tolerated.   

I can also see this being emotionally fraught from both sides.   FF, this seems like it's very hard for you.    I think I can maybe understand that.    Still I would like to suggest this isn't really about religion at its core.     it's about the disorder. and difference in personality.    Just like the difference in your financial styles and money approach is about differing needs.    a need for stability, organization, planning versus a need for spontaneity, excitement and immediate gratification.   you have very different world views.

the thought occurs that getting on the same page religiously will be as difficult if not more so than getting on the same page about finances and money, without the acknowledgement that this holds her identity together.

'ducks

[babyducks]

the thought occurs that getting on the same page religiously will be as difficult if not more so than getting on the same page about finances and money, without the acknowledgement that this holds her identity together.

late breaking edit.   sorry for the double post.     when I said "this" above, I did not mean religion or her expression of religion.     

I should have said that her identity is held together by rigidly adhering to 'there can only be one point of view,'    that point of view has to be hers, disagreeing means overwriting her reality,  overwriting her reality threatens to explode her world into bits.   It's not a difference of opinion, it's a life or death struggle.

I used to ask my partner what she wanted for dinner.   I always got 'I don't know'.   If I asked do you want Italian or Chinese for dinner, I got I want a sandwich.    The point of that little gem.    That's how I finally understood how empty she felt inside.     She didn't have a favorite food.    Her sense of self really was that fragile.

[formflier]

Yeah...the particular church that she is super fond of right now is big on "simplifying" things. 

"All the chaos in your life will fall by the wayside if you just read your Bible, pray, (insert other religious activity)."

All of those activities are great but they tend to be presented as a guarantee or be presented as if you do them and it doesn't work, the problem is with you...not with GOD.

So...I can guess that she sees a way to find stable footing as "doing" this stuff and when we do it and it doesn't work..she flips out and then wants to blame yours truly. 

At least that's my reading of the tea leaves. 

FF

[empath]

So...I can guess that she sees a way to find stable footing as "doing" this stuff and when we do it and it doesn't work..she flips out and then wants to blame yours truly.

Doing all the stuff is supposed to make life peaceful and blessed - and fix the problems. My h described it as "doing things for God"; that didn't work out so well for him. Now that he's distanced himself from church, he's a bit nicer, unless he's talking about the new way to fix the problems. He describes it as sort of an addiction to religiosity.

if you do them and it doesn't work, the problem is with you...not with GOD.

In BPD world, the problem can't be the pwBPD; it must be something/someone else... 

[babyducks]

So...I can guess that she sees a way to find stable footing as "doing" this stuff and when we do it and it doesn't work..she flips out and then wants to blame yours truly. 

Yeah sorta but not really my point.

To be sure it's necessary to concentrate on the fine details,  the organizational structure of the church, the mechanics of the pantry.   Still.  It's possible to focus on the fine details and loose significant information.

She is going to experience, express and process life in ways that are predicated by her illness.   

Not a flip out.    A this is how life works for me.

In BPD world, the problem can't be the pwBPD.

Empath  nailed it.   In the BPD world the holding together the broken bits of the psyche has to come first.

Seems to me any approach to problem solving that puts the fine details first, the pantry or the church or the household management puts the cart in front of the horse.      React to the disorder first then the details.   

[Notwendy]

React to the disorder first then the details.   

I think Babyducks makes an important point. I also think some of the wishes to take on a certain persona is due to having a poor sense of self. This doesn't negate a spiritual desire. It can be there too, but in her own way.

[Enabler]

As per usual I am a bit late to the party here but it's been a very interesting read over my chicken and avocado salad this lunchtime. At the start of the thread I was thinking to myself "how does FFw see Christianity, what role does it play in her life", then in the last few posts we seem to be getting closer and close to looking at that. I have seen a similar dynamic in my own relationship with my W. Her religious beliefs have been super charged at the same time as I have been demonised. She's said many times in the last few years that "We do not have a religious marriage, because you don't have a relationship with God". Similarly to FFw my W has triangulated God along with OM who is a proxy god/gods messenger.

I spent some time trying to work out what faith does for my W. I'll bullet them for ease:

- God forgives all sin - removes ALL guilt past and present (she needs this as she's wallowing in guilt about the way she treats people (me). God forgiving her means she no longer needs to feel guilt even though she's not made herself accountable for transgressions (small stumbling block there when she bumped into that bit of teaching)
- Christianity acts as a container with rules and regulations (necessary for her to know how to rule her life)... but see point 1 in case of regular failure to stay in the container.
- Provides a way of judging me as good/bad... I am evil
- Church folk tend not to be too judgemental as judgement is a sin... she cannot tolerate being judged. She can place on the church mask and people even refer to her as Saint EnablersW.
- Church is a positively emotional experience where she can get lost in expression
- Scripture and the rules/the container can be interpreted and her interpretation cannot be judged as wrong as there is embedded vagueness. Therefore the rules (if she consistently breaks them) can be bent and shaped to fit her world rather than her fit the biblical world and still be 'okay' with God.
- God provides and endless supply of love for her heart, a perfect version of parental love which her Mother could not supply.
- Faith unlocks her from her personal prison, the prison she blames me for enslaving her to.

The upshot of this is that my W believes:
- She knows God better than I do
- Her interpretation of teaching is more precise than mine
- She can do what she 'feels' is right at any time and she is endorsed by God, what she wants is what God wants, anyone who disagrees with her and OM God proxy = ungodly.
- What she thinks God wants is what God wants.
- She believes she has the power of prophesy.

I try and avoid religious conversations with my W. Religion firmly rests in her fantasy world and is not open for rational or reasoned discussion. Religion is purely emotional for my W, guided by her feeling and her interpretation. It's the utopia triangulation. Unfortunately like FF, to get close to my W I need to be close to God, whom is enmeshed with her, I can't get close to God without invalidating her beliefs of who and what God wants. So you can't have one without the other. This would be fine in a normal marriage, but God would typically be a constant in a marriage with unchanging scripture based foundations... but I'm pretty sure this God changes with her emotions, therefore the God you know one day is not the God you know the next as it's a figment of her emotions.

Sorry if I confused anyone there, hope you know what I mean.

Enabler

[formflier]

Unfortunately like FF, to get close to my W I need to be close to God, whom is enmeshed with her, I can't get close to God without invalidating her beliefs of who and what God wants.

Enabler

Would it be accurate to say..."get close to God according to my wife...or in my wife's judgment?"

One of the many frustrations in this area (when I was being open and "emotionally available") is I will have an especially powerful time where I believed I was being led by the Holy Spirit.  In fact, last time I shared this with her was an event I really didn't want to go to (concert), but I went with her.  She "knew" it would be good for me...(and it was) but when I expressed how it impacted me she started claiming it was an "unGodly" influence, it definitely wasn't the Holy Spirit leading me, and it was further evidence that I'm not a "true" Christian.

My guess is that she didn't find the experience very powerful, therefore nobody can..especially someone close to her.

A big part of what was impactful was the lead singer was giving a long talk about Christianity/Church and chronic medical conditions...and how the church often reacts to those conditions.

Is it really helpful to approach someone that has dealt with a chronic issue for 20 years and suggest "all they need to do" is pray about it...to be delivered.

Yet...in expressing his frustration he also expressed that this person wasn't intending to be mean, they just weren't equipped to operate effectively in this area.

That's the short version anyway...so anytime my physical capabilities (or lack thereof) come up,  you can be sure my wife is somehow going off the rails.

FF

[Enabler]

Would it be accurate to say..."get close to God according to my wife...or in my wife's judgment?"

Yes, that's a very fair assessment... "Get close to my Wife's God"

...and even her God can double blind me.

My W sent me a sermon recently, her interpretation was that it was all about how Christians should do good deeds for people, how people should do Christian type things... and how she wanted to do Christian work and things for other people but I hadn't let her and I had angrily denied her desire to follow her calling. I listened to the sermon and replied "Couldn’t disagree with a single word. The main message I took from it was integrity. Integrity being playing out our firm and unchanging core values seamlessly in all our actions, words, behaviours and thoughts. Being Christian we are taught a certain set of values like kindness to others, buying someone lunch is such an act of kindness. It amazing how many inconsistencies there are between the values they think and speak, and the actions they actually live out in their daily lives."  There's a message for her in there... she didn't respond so maybe she got it, maybe she didn't.

Enabler 

[empath]

and how she wanted to do Christian work and things for other people but I hadn't let her and I had angrily denied her desire to follow her calling.

My h is/was in the process toward becoming a pastor (priest in our tradition). As things happened, I had a disagreement with the pastor at his church - I was being publicly maligned by the pastor and I had issues with his pastoral "care" decisions, and I decided the best thing for me and the church was for me to leave at least for a time. And.. the pastor told me that I should worship somewhere else. Well, one of the criteria for h becoming a pastor was that we were "worshiping together". I said that he was free to worship with me at the church where I was attending. So, h would say that I had to worship with him because the Bible said... 

H still isn't a pastor...  nearly 5 years later...   

[formflier]

And if you or someone random asked your hubby to explain where he is in the process of becoming a pastor...he would say?

FF

[empath]

The questions make him super uncomfortable, so I don't know what he would say to other people. He felt pressured at his church to resume leadership of the music by a group of people, so he decided he would leave.

To me, he says he isn't sure that he even wants to be a pastor anymore or even at church right now - and is rethinking a lot of his "religiosity" and his upbringing in the church.

[Enabler]

I believe it's generally accepted that Faith is individual. However I'm not sure each of us perceives exactly how different faith is for some. This is more suspicion (my feelings aren't facts) than anything else, but I suspect we look at other people in the congregation or look at our spouses and think their faith is similar to our faith but with a few tweaks and nuances... just as I used to look at my W and think "You process information in a similar way to me".

Even on a very base level of philosophising, if pwBPD believe their feelings = facts and relating that to my own wandering feelings during an emotional church service, if I were so inclined I could believe any number of 'facts' relating to those 'feelings' and make spiritual interpretations of those new facts!

I have seen evidence in her private writings that she has some pretty extreme feelingfacts and left unchecked or worse still encouraged by OM these more extreme feelingfacts tend to venture into utter delusional e.g. Armageddon is coming next year (2 years ago), seeing Angels, all sorts of prophesy.

In a general sense it's quite worrying, but placed in the context of a Christian Faith it appears to be quite acceptable... almost heresy to question it's validity.

Enabler